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Musings on Hebrew Views About Yeshua

Tumah

Veteran Member
Why what would you like to add to the dictionaries, and 1308 concordance references?
I am not the one adding the word "physical", buddy. And I'd like to direct your attention to Genesis 1:4 where G-d "physically" sees that the light was good. "Goodness" is as physical a concept as "salvation" which is to say, not physical at all. There is also Deut. 28:10, "and all the nations of the world will 'physically' see that the name of G-d is called upon you." Again, unless you believe that they physically etch the name of G-d onto their bodies, your interpretation makes no sense.

And that's because you're not making any sense.

It isn't my reinterpretation, as not changing the word salvation into something else; when we take all of the text into account this is what is suggested...
No, it's not. Salvation means "preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss". The nation/s can see G-d saving Israel from harm as it happens. There is no need to re-interpret this word to mean a human being with the name "salvation". That's just weird and there's nothing supporting this interpretation.

The chief corner stone is literally the Lord coming, as stated in Isaiah 28:21.
You have no brought any verses supporting this.

It was a physical occurrence in the battles against Ammon, and the red sea.
I don't know what the "it" is, but I'm sure as above, that you've not brought any verses supporting this.

Then the texts suggests in Isaiah 52:10 (salvation of our God)...Isaiah 52:14 that the Servant will appear as the son of man.
I feel a bit like a broken record, but again, the text does not support the interpretation you are attempting to derive from it.

This is only a start to it, there are so many references where derivatives of the word yasha are used to suggest our Lord is our Salvation.
Unfortunately, I suspect that this is caused by your inability to understand Biblical Hebrew. No such references exist.

If you understood all the contextual applications of what was just said in context of the topic, you'd know that was integrating much of the Tanakh prophecies to come, cross referenced by what Yeshua stated.
This is not supported.

To explain that context for you: Our people were cut off by Yeshua (Malachi 4:5-6), where the Curse that Moses stated in Deuteronomy 28, Leviticus 26, was put on us from that point...
Malachi only has 3 chapters.
And this is not supported.

Yeshua warns not to follow the blind Pharisees (Matthew 15:14), else we will fall into the pit; which is prophetically about judgement on the whole world to come in Isaiah 24:17-18, where those who do not accept this Snare (Isaiah 8 + Isaiah 28) of recognizing the prophetic fulfillment of the Lord becoming Yeshua will be removed.
This is not supported.

The word blindness (H5788) is specifically used by Moses in Deuteronomy 28:28-29, and about Judah in Zechariah 12:4; thus indicating that after Zechariah 11 the 3 foolish shepherds (Pharisees, Sadducees, Levites), then create a worthless shepherd (Rabbinic Leaders), who won't understand this topic we're now discussing...
But it also uses the word seeing (H6493) in that verse and 2 Kings 6:17 also uses this word to describe seeing the horses there. Horses (H5483) is also used in 2 Kings 7:10 along with donkeys, thus indicating that there's going to be this guy on RF who doesn't follow the Rabbinic leaders yet thinks his eyes are opened, but he's really just being an ...donkey.

So no it wasn't a switcheroo; just complex keyword referencing. :)
This is not complex keyword referencing. This is just you making up stories by re-interpreting passages that contain similar words. If you don't think this is eisegesis, I recommend grabbing a dictionary.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
In which sense goes it convey man?
Your frustration comes from trying to talk sense when someone is simply speaking.......get ready, here it comes.........Giborish. (Yes, I know, I'm going to hate myself in the morning for that one.)
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Can I call this thread 'Wizanda Stupidity About Hebrew' or is that against some kind of rule...
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
All this argument over who is Yeshua, when the Tanakh told us; yet some people who claim to speak Hebrew, can't read properly in an ancient symbolic language.

H3444 (Yeshua) + H1961 (To become) = Exodus 15:2-3, Psalms 118:14-21, Isaiah 12:2 (2 Samuel 10:11 David Vs Ammon) +5 Verses Isaiah

H3444 (Yeshua) + H7200 (To see) = Exodus 14:13, Psalms 98:3, Isaiah 52:10 (2 Chronicles 20:17 Jehoshaphat Vs Ammon)

So the Children of Israel saw the salvation of our God rescue us from the Egyptians (Exodus 14:13), and that the Lord would become our salvation physically (Exodus 15:2-3).

We saw the Lord appear twice in battle, and become our salvation (2 Samuel 10:11 + 2 Chronicles 20:17).

Then David prophesied that the Lord would become the Chief Corner Stone that the Builders reject (Psalms 118:14-21)...

With Isaiah continuing this thread in multiple places that the Lord would become our salvation (Isaiah 12:2), and specifically Isaiah 28:16 if understood properly.

Isaiah 52:10 starts that the Lord will be physically seen as his servant in the form of a son of man (Isaiah 52:14); this is the Lord's Right Arm which the nations will physically see, as related in Psalms 98.

In my opinion. :innocent:
As far as I'm concerned, aside from the fact that Jesus said He was going to send another, this means that for end times, it's the second coming of Jesus.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
not the one adding the word "physical"
Fair enough the word 'physical' isn't essential, so edited it... Thank you.
There is no need to re-interpret this word to mean a human being with the name "salvation". That's just weird and there's nothing supporting this interpretation.
Based on just a quantification of the amount of times it says things like 'our God saves', 'our God of salvation, etc', it is reasonable to question that someone could have purposely made up the New Testament to fit prophecy.

Take into account Moses renamed Hosea, Yehoshua (Number 13:16) for the sake of prophetic fulfillment...Zechariah 3 also continues Yehoshua as a name that could be seen prophetically.

As for interpreting that it is defining a human name, it isn't... It is portraying a metaphoric concept, where we have to then check all the additional qualifying interlinking prophetic statements.

We can do word searches using multiple key descriptor words, and see tapestries of interlinking concepts... H430 + H3468 = 2Sa_22:3, 2Sa_22:47, 1Ch_16:35, Psa_18:46, Psa_24:5, Psa_25:5, Psa_27:9, Psa_50:23, Psa_62:7, Psa_65:5, Psa_69:13, Psa_79:9, Psa_85:4 , Isa_17:10*, Isa_61:10, Mic_7:7, Hab_3:18

My original idea years ago was only to see how Yeshua would have read the Tanakh, and now certain the Tanakh is one of the most complex algorithms interlinking ideas across time.
Malachi only has 3 chapters.
Sorry wasn't aware of the variance in spacing between the versions.

Hebrew is Malachi 3:23-24
You have no brought any verses supporting this.
Supporting which bit of the Chief Corner Stone prophecy did you need verses for? Else this will confuse from its complexities across the Tanakh.
I don't know what the "it" is, but I'm sure as above, that you've not brought any verses supporting this.
'(2 Samuel 10:11 David Vs Ammon)(2 Chronicles 20:17 Jehoshaphat Vs Ammon)'
the text does not support the interpretation you are attempting to derive from it.
Maybe expound why you perceive so, as not aware of any issue?
This is not supported.
Supported by whom?

What does it matter in a world of wicked people blinded to understanding the book (Isaiah 29:9-14, Daniel 12:10)...

It is like asking many blind people to switch on the light.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Can I call this thread 'Wizanda Stupidity About Hebrew' or is that against some kind of rule...
I know I'm stupid about Hebrew, i don't know that much in the slightest; yet if a word search of Hebrew words can provide calculated objective evidence, for me i feel stupid I'd not known this most of my life.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Giborish. (Yes, I know, I'm going to hate myself in the morning for that one.)
It is more hating your self in infinity I'm worried about; you see addressing someone you hardly know should always be done with courtesy, as you never know what the future holds or why God has brought them into your life, anything less than 100% will come back to us in our life flashback at death.

Personally understand I'm speaking computer code now a days to explain the Bible to people; yet that is because we have to raise the bar to understand its complexities, not mock them. ;)

In my opinions. :innocent:
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Fair enough agree my language skills are lacking; yet that doesn't determine the wisdom or knowledge someone has.
I understand what you are saying. I don't believe it. As to the point I made, it was in reference to you being the outsider telling an insider what they really believe and what their original text really means. Your credentials are also heavily outweighed.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
They have gotten the 'Messiah' inference, concerning end times, jumbled up with the First coming, and this has caused all sorts of wacky theological theories concerning 'Israel', so forth.
True, so if we look at a list of Judaic beliefs about the Messiah, they're all the reward parts; yet the word Messiah isn't specified in any of those, instead, the word anointed is used in Daniel 9:26, and Isaiah 52:14 Dead Sea Scrolls version (Y+Blemished = anointed)...

Which means that the only Messiah prophecies with the anointed one in them are about him being put to death... The other prophecies happen after ungodliness is removed from the world.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
As to the point I made, it was in reference to you being the outsider telling an insider what they really believe and what their original text really means. Your credentials are also heavily outweighed.
Yeah it is really tricky, like an Arch Angel has to get a masters degree to be respected in the field of study; to then be able to say by the way the prophecies are about to happen...

When even if that angel gets a qualification, speaks fluent ancient Hebrew, ancient Greek; it doesn't mean the people will accept any of it, and even less likely in this age.

So guess the angel can just post it in the sky, hope someone is wise enough to examine the info, and wait for the age to come.

In my opinion.
:innocent:
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Tried to ponder other words, like 'unwise', as it takes wisdom to recall that you've read something multiple times in Hebrew, and they all interconnect...

Pondered 'blinkered', and 'blinded' in someway, as maybe through bad teachers they just ignore the obvious, that exists within the basic language...

Yet inevitably if i missed something so blatant, when i could read the language, I'd call my self stupid...

What other words can you think of?
You could just ask someone if your interpretation is more correct. Inevitably you're going to be told "no," of course... but, then again, you being allowed to interpret something one way means that someone else is also allowed their interpretation. God does not play mediator in these sorts of issues (from my perspective, this is for incredibly obvious reasons) and so you can't know which interpretation of multiples is correct. You can only pretend.

I've lost hope in people's wisdom,
And I would be prone to discount your wisdom entirely if you started out making a point with me with an insult. I would likely immediately brick-wall you, with little hope of your own salvation through my eyes. You'd have to do some pretty fancy footwork to get back into even my "neutral" graces. That's just the way it is.

find it like being in Hell down here currently,
You don't think that maybe your worldview has something to do with how you feel this way? Maybe it's not the best one for you.

where even basic things are turned into ridicule;
Minor segments of the population ridiculing something is white-noise. However, I think you'll find (and may have already) that walking around claiming you're the second coming of the messiah gets you ridicule/derision/incredulity from basically EVERYONE. There's a good reason for that. Extremely good reason in my opinion. You can't see it... and I get that... but hell if anyone else will.

If we look at the media, more attention is only given to the negatives, as we're in an age of ungodliness, where the wicked don't even notice.
From my perspective there is no such thing as "ungodliness" - mostly because its opposite - "godliness" - also has no base in reality. There are things that are more savory than the consensus "average" moral behavior, and there are those things that are less savory. Call the latter "wicked" if you will - doesn't make any of it more "spiritual."

Yet i get what you're saying in an enlightened world.
Why not try to be the "enlightened world" to the world? Doesn't work? Have to turn to degradation to get anywhere? Sounds like "wisdom" to me!

That is Satya Yuga, Messianic Age, the time after Frashokereti...
Don't know, nor care, what you think any of those mean. I guess that must mean I am among the "wicked."

This current age is about to be removed by force, due to us destroying the planet, and it needing resetting...
Now this is something a little more on the level... finally. I see it as possible that we wipe ourselves out by one (or more) of our forms of perceived need for plundering and wrangling the Earth to our will. The population increase we experience alone will eventually reach a critical point given the levels of consumption of resources that many parts of the world partake in. Without change, things can only get worse from here. However... you seem to imply that there is something out there with a will to "remove" us by this "force" you speak of. To my knowledge, there is nothing at all out there to enact this. The natural order of things (distribution/availability of resources, how heavy the detrimental effects of any aspect of the turmoil affect human populations, etc.) will take care of this very well on its own... and there is no reason to believe that anything else need come into play.

Then we keep only the enlightened and wise, who are worthy of being in an age of Godliness.
And... we're back to abstract, "spiritual" strangeness. It is very much more likely that those who survive any coming turmoil due to our over-use of the Earth will be those who are most willing to overcome the practiced dictation of societal normalcy - whoever that ends up being. "Wisdom" likely will not play much of an active part, as unfortunate as that may seem to any of us.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Based on just a quantification of the amount of times it says things like 'our God saves', 'our God of salvation, etc', it is reasonable to question that someone could have purposely made up the New Testament to fit prophecy.

Take into account Moses renamed Hosea, Yehoshua (Number 13:16) for the sake of prophetic fulfillment...Zechariah 3 also continues Yehoshua as a name that could be seen prophetically.

As for interpreting that it is defining a human name, it isn't... It is portraying a metaphoric concept, where we have to then check all the additional qualifying interlinking prophetic statements.

We can do word searches using multiple key descriptor words, and see tapestries of interlinking concepts... H430 + H3468 = 2Sa_22:3, 2Sa_22:47, 1Ch_16:35, Psa_18:46, Psa_24:5, Psa_25:5, Psa_27:9, Psa_50:23, Psa_62:7, Psa_65:5, Psa_69:13, Psa_79:9, Psa_85:4 , Isa_17:10*, Isa_61:10, Mic_7:7, Hab_3:18
This is a very simply idea: Jews are in trouble > Jews hope for G-d to save them > G-d saves them. This pattern is repeated often in the text, so we see the word "salvation" often. Since G-d is the one doing the saving, we expect to find the word "salvation" in proximity to the word "G-d". These are not interlinking concepts. G-d is the one who does the saving, so when ever salvation is relevant, G-d is present.

Take into account Moses renamed Hosea, Yehoshua (Number 13:16)
Both Hosea and Yehoshuah share the same root meaning of salvation.

for the sake of prophetic fulfillment
This is not found in the text.

Zechariah 3 also continues Yehoshua as a name that could be seen prophetically
This is not a continuation, this is simply another person bearing the same name. You may not be aware, but names can't be reserved, so it's not odd to find multiple people bearing the same name. The first one was an Ephraimite, the latter, a Levite.

As for interpreting that it is defining a human name, it isn't... It is portraying a metaphoric concept, where we have to then check all the additional qualifying interlinking prophetic statements.
I've heard your spiel where you interpret "salvation" as a reference to Jesus because the name Yehoshuah comes from the same root. So don't even.

My original idea years ago was only to see how Yeshua would have read the Tanakh, and now certain the Tanakh is one of the most complex algorithms interlinking ideas across time.
Moving on...

Supporting which bit of the Chief Corner Stone prophecy did you need verses for?
Any of it.

Else this will confuse from its complexities across the Tanakh.
Complexity is not what is causing the difficulty in understanding you...

'
(2 Samuel 10:11 David Vs Ammon)(2 Chronicles 20:17 Jehoshaphat Vs Ammon)'
In 2 Sam. 10:11 we have Joab separating his army into two parts to fight against two different people. He tells the half that won't be with him, that if he needs help, they should come save him.
In 2 Chron. 20:17 Jehoshaphat is telling the Jews that they will not need to fight in the coming war, because G-d is going to save them.

Can you explain where in either or both of these two verse you see anything about a physical occurrence of...whatever it is that you think happened?

Maybe expound why you perceive so, as not aware of any issue?
Isa. 52:10 is about G-d saving the Jews. 52:14 is about the nations looking badly towards the Jewish people. No mention of a son of man in either of these verses either. There's nothing in either or both of those verses about a "Servant...[that] will appear as the son of man". Therefore the verses do not support your claim.

Supported by whom?
The Tanach.

What does it matter in a world of wicked people blinded to understanding the book (Isaiah 29:9-14, Daniel 12:10)...

It is like asking many blind people to switch on the light.
Spoken like a true Christian. It's almost like believing in Jesus requires one to call everyone who doesn't agree with you "blind".
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
so when ever salvation is relevant, G-d is present.
So along comes Yeshua, saying here a are series of prophecies we can find in the Tanakh; how is G-d not present in everything that happened?
This is not a continuation, this is simply another person bearing the same name.
So you see no symbolism that Yehoshua will bring us into the promise land?
Spoken like a true Christian.
A Christian by definition is from Paul and Simon's ministry, established in Antioch (Acts 11:26); because they also quote these prophecies, it sounds similar.
It's almost like believing in Jesus requires one to call everyone who doesn't agree with you "blind".
I don't believe in jesus; i accept the Lord fulfilled what is in the Tanakh, huge differences....

Plus not even sure the whole thing isn't made up, and we're in an artificial reality to test who isn't worth keeping; because the text is to succinct, like something with a vast understanding of human psychology has purposely orchestrated it to be this way.
2 Sam. 10:11
This is a preemptive promise that if Ammon is too strong the Lord will be our Salvation, and then...
2 Chron. 20:17
The people bowed before the Lord, in that they actually saw a physical presence, and then nations feared because the Lord fought with them...

Thus also fulfilling the ideas of the Lord being a man of war (Exodus 15:3).

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
You don't think that maybe your worldview has something to do with how you feel this way?
This is what the religious text specify, and then have to take on board what we can see in our world's history.
I would likely immediately brick-wall you
Unfortunately within this situation, we're dealing with Rabbinic Judaism, who have been so bashed by Christianity; they're immune to reasoning new data, as it all sounds the same...

So to make them question to begin, there is a slight knock & pause to allow a progression of ideas...
Why not try to be the "enlightened world" to the world?
Even writing perfect answers, doesn't make sense if the person doesn't want to hear.
Doesn't work?
These texts exist for a reason, and who wants to listen to the Bible is a snare to catch out mankind, when they've been sold we get free salvation by believing in someone's death.
Have to turn to degradation to get anywhere?
Thank you for the observations, will take on board the analysis of how to come across better. :)

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Thank you for the observations, will take on board the analysis of how to come across better. :)
As different as our mid-sets seem to be, I never would have expected you to thank me - and I obviously don't feel the gratitude is deserved by me. But all the same, it is a humbling gesture. So thank you for restoring a bit of my "Faith in Humanity Meter" today. It tends to take a lot more hits than it sees replenishment these days.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
I reckon you'd have more foundation trying to convince people of your views from first principles than based on scriptural argument
It isn't the point of convincing them; just relaying the information that is already available to us, as one last chance for some to see it, before this age is ended, and most removed...

It is just a fulfillment of prophecy to state these things before the end; didn't need anyone to accept it.... Plus along the way, maybe seeing some worth noting, who have faith to listen.
unless you're prepared to put in enough study to hold your own against scholars of the Torah, and of the New Testament, and the Qur'an, and the Vedas, and a bunch of texts of the Buddhist canon while you're at it.
Even if an Arch Angel were to have a Masters Degree, most people still wouldn't listen, and go the opposite way, as history shows always happens.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

Kirran

Premium Member
It isn't the point of convincing them; just relaying the information that is already available to us, as one last chance for some to see it, before this age is ended, and most removed...

It is just a fulfillment of prophecy to state these things before the end; didn't need anyone to accept it.... Plus along the way, maybe seeing some worth noting, who have faith to listen.

Even if an Arch Angel were to have a Masters Degree, most people still wouldn't listen, and go the opposite way, as history shows always happens.

In my opinion. :innocent:

Well plenty of Teachers get by fine without getting haughty or developing a persecution complex.
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Well plenty of Teachers get by fine without getting haughty or developing a persecution complex.
Sorry if I've come across as haughty, hadn't meant to... :oops:

Might be the amount of trolling people do, and generally find now a time of ungodly behavior, where most are fake hypocrites in someway.

As for a persecution complex, haven't really got one; it is instead justified by people's actions, find many people act like they're meant to be in Hell, and not in this realm...

Which is prophesied to soon occur, that they're to fall lower (Isaiah 24:17-22)... So generally just trying to be nice sharing what is about to happen.

A teacher couldn't explain what I've just said, and not expect public ridicule.

In my opinion. :innocent:
 

Kirran

Premium Member
Sorry if I've come across as haughty, hadn't meant to... :oops:

Might be the amount of trolling people do, and generally find now a time of ungodly behavior, where most are fake hypocrites in someway.

As for a persecution complex, haven't really got one; it is instead justified by people's actions, find many people act like they're meant to be in Hell, and not in this realm...

Which is prophesied to soon occur, that they're to fall lower (Isaiah 24:17-22)... So generally just trying to be nice sharing what is about to happen.

A teacher couldn't explain what I've just said, and not expect public ridicule.

In my opinion. :innocent:

I really think you're not using the best medium for communicating your ideas.

Anyway, what do you think of St Francis' quote 'Preach the gospel always - use words only when necessary'?
 
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