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Problems with the Trinity

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
It seems there are many problems caused by accepting the trinity as Biblical. For example;
Acts 10:38,
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.​
Why would God have to anoint Himself with holy spirit and with power? If Jesus were God, would he have not already had holy spirit and power?

The only possible solution that makes sense to me, is:
When Jesus was born He was not yet aware of "being one with God".
During His life He went through several stages [thereby showing us the way]:
"I am a messenger of God"
"I am the son of God"
"I and My Father are One"
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It seems there are many problems caused by accepting the trinity as Biblical. For example;

Acts 10:38,
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Why would God have to anoint Himself with holy spirit and with power? If Jesus were God, would he have not already had holy spirit and power?
1) Because of Phil 2:6 He existed in the form of God, yet he gave no thought to seizing equality with God as his supreme prize. 7 Instead he emptied himself of his outward glory by reducing himself to the form of a lowly servant. He became human! 8 He humbled himself and became vulnerable, choosing to be revealed as a man and was obedient. He was a perfect example, even in his death—a criminal’s death by crucifixion!

2) Because He had to become the second Adam to defeat death
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
It seems there are many problems caused by accepting the trinity as Biblical. For example;

Acts 10:38,
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Why would God have to anoint Himself with holy spirit and with power? If Jesus were God, would he have not already had holy spirit and power?


There were alot things that God did to Jesus, But it's evidence that you have no idea or clue about.

This first question is, What does Christ Jesus mean to a Christian ?

If you can figure that out, then you would know why God Anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and all power.

Back just before they came to arrest Jesus
Jesus went and prayed to God.
Now seeing Jesus is God
What exactly was Jesus showing, by praying to God ?

Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to his disciples, “Sit here, while I go over there and pray.”. ... And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping. ...
Matthew 26:38.

Are we to take this as Jesus was praying to himself or is there something much deeper that people are not seeing.

There is something much deeper that the common person does not see.

What was Jesus actually showing, by praying to God.
 
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Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
It seems there are many problems caused by accepting the trinity as Biblical. For example;

Acts 10:38,
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Why would God have to anoint Himself with holy spirit and with power? If Jesus were God, would he have not already had holy spirit and power?

A few more verses that emphasise the obvious seperation of God and Jesus:

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The trinity concept of course arose from not from the bible but through various councils in the fourth century, the first being that initiated by the emperor Constantine. While I believe in the same God, Jesus, and Bible the trinity doctrine is not part of my faith.

If the parable of the tares is to be accepted, it is not suprising that the trinity is one of several fundamental Christian doctrines that will never make any sense to many of us.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Yes, I’ll grant you, mainstream Christianity is filled with “silly” tenets...but the Bible, isn’t.

Simply put, they are not in agreement! One of em is wrong....guess which one?

(It’s to be expected, though. Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Corinthians 4:4)

Do you think that a person or group needs God’s help, ie., His blessing and spirit, to accurately understand the truths of His Word? I’m sure you’d say yes. Jesus said as much at Luke 10:21.

Has Christendom followed Christlike love, in times of conflict? Or have they killed their spiritual brothers? (John 13:34-35) They are even supposed to ‘love their enemy’! — Matthew 5:44
That’s the true test of being “children of God”. — 1 John 3:10-15

Since history bears this out, then why should we expect God to give understanding of His Word, to those who are disobedient?

Don’t get me wrong; IMO, Christianity, as taught from the Bible, is the truth....unfortunately, it’s been hijacked by apostate, paid clergy, leaders in Christendom. It’s declining it seems, but it’s still a moneymaker.

Eh. I see christianity with real real people, speaking of the real body, with the real experience of the real christ. I cannot see any denomination (JW included) as people who twisted truth.

I mean, if that helps you come to god to say that about other people (real priest and body included), so be. Weird but I hope that isnt what jesus taught. I mean, you can belittle the body of christ continously because they are in the wrong denomination, I just dont see it as a productive way to share the truth aa a whole not a discriminative verson of it. :oops:

Mainstream christianity is not political. Its the body of christ. Its

The sacraments

We are baptized in creator, savior, and god's spirit

We repent of our sins to the creator, only the creator, through his incarnation

We come together in communion to worship as, in, and through christ himself

Its not political. Its not false. It is highly highy highly devotional and teaches christ through the body of christ, the people not the bible (the book) but the scripture of salvation.

I admit, after going to the hall, JW have better understanding of scripture. What seemed missing was the actual devotion. Its like if scripture didnt exist, there'd be no JW.

All christion denomonations (JW and LDS included) in my view are silly. You guys didnt hickjack anything. I just think your doctrines are false.

Thats totally if I belittled your faith because of my disagreement.

Very nasty way took at other people (yes. People)

Sorry. Cant get into your post when you belittle others denominations. Makes it hard to see how you are a body of christ. Knowing scripture and posting it doesnt make one a christ follower. Good to have it as a tool for salvation not salvation itself.
 
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sealchan

Well-Known Member
I guess anything goes with myths. Once the churches got people to accept myth as reality anything is on the table as far as doctrine is concerned. No need for anything to make sense. Logic goes out the door.

Now you are beginning to understand...and I'm not being sarcastic. A religion that stops at what is merely rational is no religion but a mere philosophy. Religion starts where logic ends.

But it is not mere nonsense...life itself, when viewed honestly, presents us with contradictions which language itself puts us in. What even many Christians forget is that we are incapable of understanding the whole. The Trinities value is that it so obviously isn't logical but it seems on a deep spiritual level to be true, that that simple statement takes on a life of its own. It radiates its own light and reflects that of the Bible itself.

Literalism is the greatest hindrance to reading the Bible and it is born of its father rationality. Mystery is the heart of the Bible a book collected together to show us how approachable and yet finally unapproachable is God.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
It seems there are many problems caused by accepting the trinity as Biblical. For example;

Acts 10:38,
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Why would God have to anoint Himself with holy spirit and with power? If Jesus were God, would he have not already had holy spirit and power?

Glad to see you can read the bible objectively and realize that the doctrine of the trinity is unbiblical. Maybe eventually you'll read it objectively enough to realize that it erroneously predicts Jesus' return within his disciples' lifetimes.
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It seems there are many problems caused by accepting the trinity as Biblical. For example;

Acts 10:38,
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Why would God have to anoint Himself with holy spirit and with power? If Jesus were God, would he have not already had holy spirit and power?
The trinity was a vulgarization of the Universal Power and people who ruled it put together. There's no reason to put the two together anymore.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
Religion starts where logic ends.
Religion is predicated on logic, and it must co-exist with logic or else it is meaningless.

The Trinities value is that it so obviously isn't logical but it seems on a deep spiritual level to be true, that that simple statement takes on a life of its own. It radiates its own light and reflects that of the Bible itself.
I don't think so. I think trinity is gnosticism. It is trying to go beyond what is written. Deut 6:4. It does this cunningly, by reducing God to the level of a person, and then dividing him. From the very outset, people have sought to go beyond the revelations.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
This is a loaded question.

What is umbiblical about the trinity?

Is there scripture that says jesus had no connection with his father?

Does it mention they have different purposes?

The nature of god is spirit/being. The nature of christ is human. Incarnation is when something one is made flesh.

When the creator became a visible image of an invisible god, what is an image to you that seperates the source and image but still say its the image of at the same time?

How can an image have a source if the source is seperate than the image? (Think of a mirror)

The bible doesnt say jesus IS god. Trinitarians go off the bible saying jesus is the image of god. They dont seperate the image from source in language but they Do in the creator and saviors nature.

Language issues not theological.

If trinitarians used "image of" rather than "is", would that solve the issues you guys have with them or is it somethng deeper than just how one expresses the saviors relationship to his creator?

Referring to these questions, where in scripture does it say the trinity does not exist? (Not the word, the actual trinity itself)
 
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rrobs

Well-Known Member
Im very particular with anyone questioning my intelligence regardless the intent. Online doesnt help. I do put a lot of thought into my replies so I am surprised if I get far, really. Im not on RF to argue and convince anyone, which is what an argument is. Im more for debate, challenging the logic with evidence of a given topic without proving the other wrong.
I'm not questioning your intelligence. You seem to be informed. I'm just debating also. I don't claim to hold the truth. I just know who does hold it. That would of course be God.

Not topical on RF, but I survived so far. I also notice there are god-topics I only get so far on before believers back out and non-believers shift the topic or critize something not related to the context. Dont know if its me, cultural differences, or what but its highly annoying. Trying to figure how to shfit websites that are more productive. Havent found it yet.

I think that it is just the nature of the Internet. People tend to say things they would never say face to face. I try not to do that, but I suppose I fall into the same trap from time to time.
I just hoped you understood what I said without saying I dont have clarity in a topic I am knowledgable about via experience. I was only Catholic for four years of my adult life. I was never indocrinated so I never expressed tradition and scripture the same as an indoctrinated catholic would. I also get irritated with anyone putting down catholic doctrine. I guess it makes me think these people really wasnt part of The church just the idea they think the church is based on how they are treated. Many people tell me in person because they read the bible, they left the church. I understood the Church because of the bible.
I went to Catholic school for 12 years. We had religion class 5 days a week for the entire time, so I'm pretty familiar with their doctrine. Much of it didn't make sense to me, but I went along with it. One day I met someone who knew the Bible and they showed me that the things the Catholics say are quite often at odds with the scriptures.

Tradition does help but my points are basic christian view from non trinitarian and nontrinitarian.
Tradition has it's place, but only if it agrees with the Bible. Jesus talked about tradition to the Pharisees, the religious leaders at that time.

Matt 15:3,
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Man might say Jesus was being nasty by criticizing them. However it was actually the most loving thing he could have done for them. Speaking the truth is the epitome of love. Tradition more often than not is contrary to the scriptures. We are told to reprove, rebuke, and exhort those who are not aligned with the scriptures.

2Tim 4:2,
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
I guess it is generally accepted that we should all "be nice" to each other, to just accept otehr people's beliefs and not criticize them. But in truth, it would not be Christian to let a brother follow lies without pointing it out to them. I am pretty forward and outspoken and that often gets me in trouble with man. But I seek, not man's approval, but God's. God tells us how to be approved before him.

2Tim 2:15,
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Our approval before God does not come by accepting everybody's ideas on who God is with no regard to Biblical accuracy. We are told in many scriptures to correct them, to bring them back to right believing

It confuses people. I dont like taking sides that causes division. Its a nasty part of christianity but I dont know if people see it (people I know and meet in person; a lot of christians here)

The Apostle Paul held nothing back. I'm sure he had the utmost love for the Galatians, but look at what he said to them.

Gal 3:1,
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?​

He called them fools. The word foolish is the Greek word anoetos which literally means stupid or unintelligent. I can't imagine the hate that would pour from anybody if they were told that at RF or any other forum. But, like I said, there is nothing more loving than speaking God's word to others. That is my goal. I don't always do as well as I would like, but I try the best I can.
 
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TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
It seems there are many problems caused by accepting the trinity as Biblical. For example;

Acts 10:38,
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Why would God have to anoint Himself with holy spirit and with power? If Jesus were God, would he have not already had holy spirit and power?


Here is the problem - the Trinity is a false doctrine. But that doesn't mean that the Messiah wasn't God. There is only one God, but that one God (YHWH) manifest himself in the flesh. It was God dwelling in that body. The fulness of the deity dwelt in him bodily. Colossians 2:9

Thomas knew he was God. John 20:28 He said My YHWH and my God. They have tampered with God's name so much in the scriptures that people are confused. Kyrios was the Greek word they replaced God's name with. Verify this, with verses such as Mark 12:29-30 where they are quoting Deuteronomy 6:4. You know it was YHWH in the original Hebrew. They replaced his name with Kyrios which means Lord. They did the same thing in Matthew 22:44.

Here is another example, Mark 12:36 where they are quoting Psalms 110:1. It is YHWH in the Hebrew. Once again they replaced his name with Kyrios. They did this over and over.

So it is just like it says in Philippians 2:9-11, every knee is going to bow and every tongue confess YHWH YHWSH Messiah. YHWSH is the true name of the Messiah. It means YHWH saves or YHWH is salvation. The Messiah had the same name as the one we call Joshua - the successor to Moses. Look both names up in your Strong's and you will see they come from the same Hebrew word. It was impossible for his name to have been Jesus. There is no J in the Hebrew language.

The prophecy about a voice in the wilderness - Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isaiah 40:3.
In the NT, the voice turns out to be John the Baptist. Mark 1:2-3 Who did John prepare the way for? Who was it that showed up?

Who created everything? YHWH said in Isaiah 44:24 - I am YHWH that maketh all things ; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself.
Yet in the NT we find that it was the Messiah that created everything. Colossians 1:14-16 The reason this is true, is because it was YHWH dwelling in that body.

Who was going to be the stone of stumbling and rock of offense to both the houses of Israel? According to 1 Peter 2:8 it was the Messiah.
But who did the OT say it was? Sanctify YHWH of hosts himself, and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel. Isaiah 8:13-14

For, behold YHWH cometh forth out of his place, and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth.
Micah 1:3 and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem? Micah 1:5 He did this as the Messiah - God manifest in the flesh.

YHWH said, I am the first , and I am the last: and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6 In the NT, the Messiah said he was the first and the last. Revelation 1:17-18 Can you have more than one that is the first and the last? If I say I was first and last in a race - how many were in the race?

 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Maybe eventually you'll read it objectively enough to realize that it erroneously predicts Jesus' return within his disciples' lifetimes.
I think you are referring to:

Matt 16:28,
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Taken at face value this would seem to be a glaring mistake by Jesus. I'll be honest, I don't know for sure how to deal with it. So I have two choices. I can either say the Bible is wrong or I can say I don't understand what this verse means. I choose the latter. Maybe some day it will come to me and maybe not. But whenever he does return I'll figure it out then for sure.

God's word is the apex of perfection. The closer it is studied, the more perfect it becomes. If there is an apparent contradiction it is not God's mistake. It may be in my understanding or perhaps a bad translation from the original texts. I'm the problem, not God.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Religion is predicated on logic, and it must co-exist with logic or else it is meaningless.


I don't think so. I think trinity is gnosticism. It is trying to go beyond what is written. Deut 6:4. It does this cunningly, by reducing God to the level of a person, and then dividing him. From the very outset, people have sought to go beyond the revelations.

I fully expected a Protestant to disagree with this idea. I should say that I am not Catholic but rather a devout student of the writings of Joseph Campbell.

How would you understand the idea of mystery in the context of your faith? Is it important? Is it to be resolved into purely rational understanding?
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Here is the problem - the Trinity is a false doctrine. But that doesn't mean that the Messiah wasn't God. There is only one God, but that one God (YHWH) manifest himself in the flesh. It was God dwelling in that body. The fulness of the deity dwelt in him bodily. Colossians 2:9
Yes, God was in Christ.

2Cor 5:19,
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.​

Christ is in you.

Col 1:27,
To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

So it is God in Christ in you. That doesn't make you God though.
Thomas knew he was God. John 20:28 He said My YHWH and my God. They have tampered with God's name so much in the scriptures that people are confused. Kyrios was the Greek word they replaced God's name with. Verify this, with verses such as Mark 12:29-30 where they are quoting Deuteronomy 6:4. You know it was YHWH in the original Hebrew. They replaced his name with Kyrios which means Lord. They did the same thing in Matthew 22:44.
The word god is applied to many people in the Bible. Moses was called a god in Ex 7:1 for example. In John 10:34-35 Jesus called the Jews God because they had the word of God. The Hebrews understood the word "god" differently than we do. It behoves us to see what went through their mind when reading the word "god."
Here is another example, Mark 12:36 where they are quoting Psalms 110:1. It is YHWH in the Hebrew. Once again they replaced his name with Kyrios. They did this over and over.

So it is just like it says in Philippians 2:9-11, every knee is going to bow and every tongue confess YHWH YHWSH Messiah. YHWSH is the true name of the Messiah. It means YHWH saves or YHWH is salvation. The Messiah had the same name as the one we call Joshua - the successor to Moses. Look both names up in your Strong's and you will see they come from the same Hebrew word. It was impossible for his name to have been Jesus. There is no J in the Hebrew language.

The prophecy about a voice in the wilderness - Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isaiah 40:3.
In the NT, the voice turns out to be John the Baptist. Mark 1:2-3 Who did John prepare the way for? Who was it that showed up?

Who created everything? YHWH said in Isaiah 44:24 - I am YHWH that maketh all things ; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself.
Yet in the NT we find that it was the Messiah that created everything. Colossians 1:14-16 The reason this is true, is because it was YHWH dwelling in that body.

Who was going to be the stone of stumbling and rock of offense to both the houses of Israel? According to 1 Peter 2:8 it was the Messiah.
But who did the OT say it was? Sanctify YHWH of hosts himself, and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel. Isaiah 8:13-14

For, behold YHWH cometh forth out of his place, and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth.
Micah 1:3 and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem? Micah 1:5 He did this as the Messiah - God manifest in the flesh.

YHWH said, I am the first , and I am the last: and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6 In the NT, the Messiah said he was the first and the last. Revelation 1:17-18 Can you have more than one that is the first and the last? If I say I was first and last in a race - how many were in the race?
I think all of that is true. But I don't see how any of it makes Jesus God. That has to be a preconceived idea that is read into the scriptures. After all, who doesn't already "know" Jesus is God before ever opening the book for the first time. The church has had 2,000 years to promulgate the lie of Jesus being God. Much of the time the unbeliever would be put to death. That is quite an incentive to compromise on the truth. It sends chill up my spine to think that a mere 500 years ago I would have been burned at the stake for my beliefs. I'm lucky because they have pretty well indoctrinated everybody into the lie and a few hold outs are no longer a threat to their coffers. It is beyond me how such an institution can be the guide for truth for millions of people.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Geek discussion...Christianity is far to filled with incredibly intelligent geeks. Jesus is a damn carpenter not that hard actually!!! Geeks.
Where does it say Jesus was a carpenter in the Bible? Don't bother to look. That is tradition and it serves to prove my point that on a whole Christians are more into tradition than truth. Everybody seems to know what the Bible says without ever having actually read it.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I'm not questioning your intelligence. You seem to be informed. I'm just debating also. I don't claim to hold the truth. I just know who does hold it. That would of course be God.



I think that it is just the nature of the Internet. People tend to say things they would never say face to face. I try not to do that, but I suppose I fall into the same trap from time to time.

I went to Catholic school for 12 years. We had religion class 5 days a week for the entire time, so I'm pretty familiar with their doctrine. Much of it didn't make sense to me, but I went along with it. One day I met someone who knew the Bible and they showed me that the things the Catholics say are quite often at odds with the scriptures.


Tradition has it's place, but only if it agrees with the Bible. Jesus talked about tradition to the Pharisees, the religious leaders at that time.

Matt 15:3,
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Man might say Jesus was being nasty by criticizing them. However it was actually the most loving thing he could have done for them. Speaking the truth is the epitome of love. Tradition more often than not is contrary to the scriptures. We are told to reprove, rebuke, and exhort those who are not aligned with the scriptures.

2Tim 4:2,
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
I guess it is generally accepted that we should all "be nice" to each other, to just accept otehr people's beliefs and not criticize them. But in truth, it would not be Christian to let a brother follow lies without pointing it out to them. I am pretty forward and outspoken and that often gets me in trouble with man. But I seek, not man's approval, but God's. God tells us how to be approved before him.

2Tim 2:15,
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Our approval before God does not come by accepting everybody's ideas on who God is with no regard to Biblical accuracy. We are told in many scriptures to correct them, to bring them back to right believing



The Apostle Paul held nothing back. I'm sure he had the utmost love for the Galatians, but look at what he said to them.

Gal 3:1,
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?​

He called them fools. The word foolish is the Greek word anoetos which literally means stupid or unintelligent. I can't imagine the hate that would pour from anybody if they were told that at RF or any other forum. But, like I said, there is nothing more loving than speaking God's word to others. That is my goal. I don't always do as well as I would like, but I try the best I can.

Ima come back to your post. Thank you.

At the Church, I found it to be very devotional. Scripture was lived not studied. The issue, though, is each parish is different. At my confirmation parish, the priest are nice. Everyone helps you in your faith without saying "Im Catholic youre not". The bias just wasnt there.

I went to a Catholic retreat. We had Mass and confession daily. One priest yelled at me because I asked if he was okay since he was sleeping. I went a more traditional church in NY, US and when I confessed he said, "the devil made me do it." I went to Latin Mass and the whole inquisition flashed through my head.

I was never at odds because the Church (the people and devotion) was much more to me than its history. Some and I say some priests can commit crimes all they want, but that doesnt harm my former faith. They can paint the walls blue and take out all statues, it wouldnt matter.

If was, not, is not, and never has and be part of salvation. People were killed for worshiping statues and people. Christian (Not specifically catholic) history is terrible for those who want to pick it apart.

You (people) can be in the Church for years and you still wont get it. If you did, believe, you'd have no reason to leave.

The Church does correlate to scripture. It wasnt "just Roman" back when. It was The Church. The problem is you guys are belittling the Church when the issue should be with the Romans NOT the Church.

But, I will get back to your post. Indoctrination probably does more harm than good. I was a convert and knew the bible-only way. I didnt grow up christian but Ive read the bible twice befoe and after confirmation.

Converts have different views than indocrinates. But regardless, I cant imagine a religion so immoral as to find fault in other people (people are the Church; christ/Eucharist is their doctrine). Thats the foundation.
 
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Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
I think you are referring to:

Matt 16:28,
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Taken at face value this would seem to be a glaring mistake by Jesus. I'll be honest, I don't know for sure how to deal with it. So I have two choices. I can either say the Bible is wrong or I can say I don't understand what this verse means. I choose the latter. Maybe some day it will come to me and maybe not. But whenever he does return I'll figure it out then for sure.

God's word is the apex of perfection. The closer it is studied, the more perfect it becomes. If there is an apparent contradiction it is not God's mistake. It may be in my understanding or perhaps a bad translation from the original texts. I'm the problem, not God.

Same prophecy is also found in Matt. 10:21-23 and Luke 21:32, among others. In any case, I appreciate your honesty, but the problem is that you're pre-supposing the bible to be God's infallible word. When I read the bible, I look at it objectively rather than pre-supposing anything about it one way or another and then afterward I decide if it looks like something that is true or not. Clearly these passages are failed prophecies when one reads them objectively, but through the lens of your pre-supposition that the bible is infallible, you can't see that.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
Yes. They did. If you knew the first thing about literary and form criticism, you wouldn’t make that claim. Myth is a literary form. Logos is an idea. Logos certainly can (and is) expressed mythically. That’s How the Bible Works.
The meaning of words often change. I understand that in this day and age a myth is considered a literary form. But the Bible was not written last year in New York. It was written some 2,000 years ago in Middle East, a time and culture vastly different than ours. It is irrelevant what we think about myths today. The question is, what did the Hebrews/Greeks/Romans think of it at the time?

Let's consult the Bible itself to see what it says about myths. The word fables is he Greek word muthos from which we get the word myth. It is used 5 times.

1Tim 1:4,
Neither give heed to fables [Greek muthos, English myth] and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].
Very simple grammar here. We are told to not give myths the time of day.

1Tim 4:7,
But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself [rather] unto godliness.
Again, no complicated sentence structure here. We are told to refuse myths.

2Tim 4:4,
And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
It couldn't be easier to understand. Myths are the opposite of truth.

Titus 1:14,
Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Wow! Maybe the Bible is not that hard to understand after all. We are told not to give heed to fables. Once again fables are contrasted with truth.

2Pet 1:16,
For we [Paul & Timothy] have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
It doesn't look like Paul considered a myth to be a literary form to help make people understand the Bible.

Noticeably missing from John 1:1 is the word myth. Instead it was the logos that was with Him in the beginning. Greek and Roman mystery religions relied on myths. God relies on logic. Three people in one is not logical. It is highly mythical and that is why the trinity doesn't hold water.
 
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rrobs

Well-Known Member
Same prophecy is also found in Matt. 10:21-23 and Luke 21:32, among others. In any case, I appreciate your honesty, but the problem is that you're pre-supposing the bible to be God's infallible word. When I read the bible, I look at it objectively rather than pre-supposing anything about it one way or another and then afterward I decide if it looks like something that is true or not. Clearly these passages are failed prophecies when one reads them objectively, but through the lens of your pre-supposition that the bible is infallible, you can't see that.
I appreciate your honesty also. You are right on. I do presuppose the Bible to be the truth. Otherwise I wouldn't bother with it. But that is the only supposition I make about it. Once I accept it as truth it is simply a matter of reading what it says free from any other preconceived ideas. When that is done it suddenly makes way more sense than much of Orthodox Christian doctrine.

As I said, if I see an apparent contradictions, I understand it is either my understanding or a translation. There is nothing wrong with God or His word. My understanding is the problem. Over the years as I continue to study I've resolved many seeming contradictions by various research principles. Enough to keep me going at any rate. I would see no point in wasting my time if I didn't think the book was true.
 
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