Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Hardly a fallacy. All you have done now is to tell us that besides not understanding the sciences and the Bible, now you have demonstrated that you do not understand logical fallacies either.
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Biblical prophesy
- Thread starter Subduction Zone
- Start date
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Then find the appropriate prophecy. The one you tried to use was almost 2,000 years past its expiration date.
Acutally, I like the Message better:
28 Even dunces who keep quiet are thought to be wise; as long as they keep their mouths shut, they're smart.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
A lesson that perhaps you should take to heart. How many times must your failures be explained to you before you understand them?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
@KenS, I did delete a post of mine because it did go over the line a little bit. Perhaps you could consider doing the same.
That fact is that when an event is predicted to occur within the lifetime of people that were alive at the time that it was made and then an event that does not quite match the prophecy occurs almost 2,000 years after the predicted time that is a failed prophecy. Until you understand this there is no moving on.
Did Jesus say that those events would happen while people that were alive that day were still alive? Yes or no?
Do you think that people can live for almost 2,000 years? This would violate other parts of the Bible if you say yes.
That fact is that when an event is predicted to occur within the lifetime of people that were alive at the time that it was made and then an event that does not quite match the prophecy occurs almost 2,000 years after the predicted time that is a failed prophecy. Until you understand this there is no moving on.
Did Jesus say that those events would happen while people that were alive that day were still alive? Yes or no?
Do you think that people can live for almost 2,000 years? This would violate other parts of the Bible if you say yes.
sealchan
Well-Known Member
I suspect that the author of Matthew worked hard to bury his very worldly orientation towards mythic content from other cultures...the virgin birth or the birth of a half human, half God from a union between a human woman and a divine being is extremely common in Greek myth.
I believe that motifs from Buddhism (The eightfold path as a model for the Beatitudes (The beautiful attitudes?), the three temptations followed by a ministry), the theme of light and salt and bowl, the explicit mention of the magi (zoroastrians), the denigration of Judaism through the ministry of wild John and the foolishness of Herod and all Jerusalem...Matthew was clearly ready to create a new, expanded, reformed religion out of the existing Jewish belief system .
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Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Gives the story more street cred.
@Subduction Zone - I will delete two and if there is anything else that you deem prudent to delete... let me know.
The above has a hue of simple dialogue. I am happy to share and discuss. We may still not agree--but at least we will know how we both arrived to our conclussion.
Will answer shortly.
I have removed some parts of your quotes... those which are demeaning and isn't conducive to proper ettiquette.
I would have to disagree although, in truth, Rome often did destroy the sources of rebellion.
I disagree for the following reasons:
Understandable. The Book is filled with literal statements as well as analogies and pictures. On a side note, prophecies are many times given in sequence though spanning years and milleniums yet, while reading, it is still one verse after another.
I yield to John Gill.
Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days
That is, immediately after the distress the Jews would be in through the siege of Jerusalem, and the calamities attending it; just upon the destruction of that city, and the temple in it, with the whole nation of the Jews, shall the following things come to pass; and therefore cannot be referred to the last judgment, or what should befall the church, or world, a little before that time, or should be accomplished in the whole intermediate time, between the destruction of Jerusalem, and the last judgment: for all that is said to account for such a sense, as that it was usual with the prophets to speak of judgments afar off as near; and that the apostles often speak of the coming of Christ, the last judgment, and the end of the world, as just at hand; and that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, will not answer to the word "immediately", or show that that should be understood of two thousand years after: besides, all the following things were to be fulfilled before that present generation, in which Christ lived, passed away, ( Matthew 24:34) and therefore must be understood of things that should directly, and immediately take place upon, or at the destruction of the city and temple.
Shall the sun be darkened:
not in a literal but in a figurative sense; and is to be understood not of the religion of the Jewish church; nor of the knowledge of the law among them, and the decrease of it; nor of the Gospel being obscured by heretics and false teachers; nor of the temple of Jerusalem, senses which are given into by one or another; but of the Shekinah, or the divine presence in the temple. The glory of God, who is a sun and a shield, filled the tabernacle, when it was reared up; and so it did the temple, when it was built and dedicated; in the most holy place, Jehovah took up his residence; here was the symbol of his presence, the mercy seat, and the two cherubim over it: and though God had for some time departed from this people, and a voice was heard in the temple before its destruction, saying, "let us go hence"; yet the token of the divine presence remained till the utter destruction of it; and then this sun was wholly darkened, and there was not so much as the outward symbol of it:
and the moon shall not give her light;
which also is to be explained in a figurative and metaphorical sense; and refers not to the Roman empire, which quickly began to diminish; nor to the city of Jerusalem; nor to the civil polity of the nation; but to the ceremonial law, the moon, the church is said to have under her feet, ( Revelation 12:1 ) so called because the observance of new moons was one part of it, and the Jewish festivals were regulated by the moon; and especially, because like the moon, it was variable and changeable. Now, though this, in right, was abolished at the death of Christ, and ceased to give any true light, when he, the substance, was come; yet was kept up by the Jews, as long as their temple was standing; but when that was destroyed, the daily sacrifice, in fact, ceased, and so it has ever since; the Jews esteeming it unlawful to offer sacrifice in a strange land, or upon any other altar than that of Jerusalem; and are to this day without a sacrifice, and without an ephod:
and the stars shall fall from heaven;
which phrase, as it elsewhere intends the doctors of the church, and preachers falling off from purity of doctrine and conversation; so here it designs the Jewish Rabbins and doctors, who departed from the word of God, and set up their traditions above it, fell into vain and senseless interpretations of it, and into debates about things contained in their Talmud; the foundation of which began to be laid immediately upon their dispersion into other countries:
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;
meaning all the ordinances of the legal dispensation; which shaking, and even removing of them, were foretold by ( Haggai 2:6 ) and explained by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews, ( Hebrews 12:26 Hebrews 12:27 ) whereby room and way were made for Gospel ordinances to take place, and be established; which shall not be shaken, so as to be removed, but remain till the second coming of Christ. The Jews themselves are sensible, and make heavy complaints of the great declensions and alterations among them, since the destruction of the temple; for after having taken notice of the death of several of their doctors, who died a little before, or after that; and that upon their death ceased the honour of the law, the splendour of wisdom, and the glory of the priesthood, they add F7;
``from the time that the temple was destroyed, the wise men, and sons of nobles, were put to shame, and they covered their heads; liberal men were reduced to poverty; and men of violence and calumny prevailed; and there were none that expounded, or inquired, or asked. R. Elezer the great, said, from the time the sanctuary were destroyed, the wise men began to be like Scribes, and the Scribes like to the Chazans, (or sextons that looked after the synagogues,) and the Chazans like to the common people, and the common people grew worse and worse, and there were none that inquired and asked;''that is, of the wise men there were no scholars, or very few that studied in the law.
Again. we may not agree but his points are simply that there are other ways to understand what is written.
And yet, what cannot be denied is the miracle of a country becoming a country again. Never, in all of history, has any group of people been dispersed into the four courners of the world and come back with their same language, customs and into the very same country that they were dispersed from.
As it said it would.
Again... we can agree to disagree but I still look at Israel and can see the evidence of what has never happened before.
I would have to disagree although, in truth, Rome often did destroy the sources of rebellion.
I disagree for the following reasons:
- This happened about 40 years later. Who can predict the future of a country 40 years later? And if it was so predictable... why did the Jews not just submit? The Christians did believe the prophecy and left... those who did not stayed. So, if it was so predictable then everyone would have left.
- It is also possible that they would have left the Temple intact. Destroy the city but leave the Temple. Again, who can say that in 40 years which structure would stay?
Understandable. The Book is filled with literal statements as well as analogies and pictures. On a side note, prophecies are many times given in sequence though spanning years and milleniums yet, while reading, it is still one verse after another.
I yield to John Gill.
Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days
That is, immediately after the distress the Jews would be in through the siege of Jerusalem, and the calamities attending it; just upon the destruction of that city, and the temple in it, with the whole nation of the Jews, shall the following things come to pass; and therefore cannot be referred to the last judgment, or what should befall the church, or world, a little before that time, or should be accomplished in the whole intermediate time, between the destruction of Jerusalem, and the last judgment: for all that is said to account for such a sense, as that it was usual with the prophets to speak of judgments afar off as near; and that the apostles often speak of the coming of Christ, the last judgment, and the end of the world, as just at hand; and that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, will not answer to the word "immediately", or show that that should be understood of two thousand years after: besides, all the following things were to be fulfilled before that present generation, in which Christ lived, passed away, ( Matthew 24:34) and therefore must be understood of things that should directly, and immediately take place upon, or at the destruction of the city and temple.
Shall the sun be darkened:
not in a literal but in a figurative sense; and is to be understood not of the religion of the Jewish church; nor of the knowledge of the law among them, and the decrease of it; nor of the Gospel being obscured by heretics and false teachers; nor of the temple of Jerusalem, senses which are given into by one or another; but of the Shekinah, or the divine presence in the temple. The glory of God, who is a sun and a shield, filled the tabernacle, when it was reared up; and so it did the temple, when it was built and dedicated; in the most holy place, Jehovah took up his residence; here was the symbol of his presence, the mercy seat, and the two cherubim over it: and though God had for some time departed from this people, and a voice was heard in the temple before its destruction, saying, "let us go hence"; yet the token of the divine presence remained till the utter destruction of it; and then this sun was wholly darkened, and there was not so much as the outward symbol of it:
and the moon shall not give her light;
which also is to be explained in a figurative and metaphorical sense; and refers not to the Roman empire, which quickly began to diminish; nor to the city of Jerusalem; nor to the civil polity of the nation; but to the ceremonial law, the moon, the church is said to have under her feet, ( Revelation 12:1 ) so called because the observance of new moons was one part of it, and the Jewish festivals were regulated by the moon; and especially, because like the moon, it was variable and changeable. Now, though this, in right, was abolished at the death of Christ, and ceased to give any true light, when he, the substance, was come; yet was kept up by the Jews, as long as their temple was standing; but when that was destroyed, the daily sacrifice, in fact, ceased, and so it has ever since; the Jews esteeming it unlawful to offer sacrifice in a strange land, or upon any other altar than that of Jerusalem; and are to this day without a sacrifice, and without an ephod:
and the stars shall fall from heaven;
which phrase, as it elsewhere intends the doctors of the church, and preachers falling off from purity of doctrine and conversation; so here it designs the Jewish Rabbins and doctors, who departed from the word of God, and set up their traditions above it, fell into vain and senseless interpretations of it, and into debates about things contained in their Talmud; the foundation of which began to be laid immediately upon their dispersion into other countries:
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;
meaning all the ordinances of the legal dispensation; which shaking, and even removing of them, were foretold by ( Haggai 2:6 ) and explained by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews, ( Hebrews 12:26 Hebrews 12:27 ) whereby room and way were made for Gospel ordinances to take place, and be established; which shall not be shaken, so as to be removed, but remain till the second coming of Christ. The Jews themselves are sensible, and make heavy complaints of the great declensions and alterations among them, since the destruction of the temple; for after having taken notice of the death of several of their doctors, who died a little before, or after that; and that upon their death ceased the honour of the law, the splendour of wisdom, and the glory of the priesthood, they add F7;
``from the time that the temple was destroyed, the wise men, and sons of nobles, were put to shame, and they covered their heads; liberal men were reduced to poverty; and men of violence and calumny prevailed; and there were none that expounded, or inquired, or asked. R. Elezer the great, said, from the time the sanctuary were destroyed, the wise men began to be like Scribes, and the Scribes like to the Chazans, (or sextons that looked after the synagogues,) and the Chazans like to the common people, and the common people grew worse and worse, and there were none that inquired and asked;''that is, of the wise men there were no scholars, or very few that studied in the law.
Again. we may not agree but his points are simply that there are other ways to understand what is written.
And yet, what cannot be denied is the miracle of a country becoming a country again. Never, in all of history, has any group of people been dispersed into the four courners of the world and come back with their same language, customs and into the very same country that they were dispersed from.
As it said it would.
Again... we can agree to disagree but I still look at Israel and can see the evidence of what has never happened before.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You ignored the biggest part of the failure of that prophecy. Israel was to be a nation again during the lifetime of those alive that day. No one lives for almost 2,000 years.
As I said, in many cases a prophecy includes a "now" and also a "will be". What I do know is that the Jewish people knew they were coming back to their homeland. In as much as they understood it as a "will be", perhaps there is an aspect of prophecy that needs to be readressed when you read it?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
There was always an underlying desire, but that is not to be unexpected in a displace people. And that is why that prophecy fails. Open ended prophecies fail because given enough time almost any goal can be accomplished.
And you are still ignoring that the people that is was made for, the people alive at that time, were supposed to see it accomplished within their lifetimes. I can quote the pertinent passage again, would you like to see it? By putting a limit on the amount of time that would have made it a valid prophecy, but that valid prophecy failed since the time limit more than expired.
Can't be of service anymore. I will only be repeating myself. Thanks for the change of tenor and looking forward to a different discussion.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Do you not understand that there was a time limit on that prophecy? Jesus even underscored it by using the word "truly" or its Aramaic equivalent:
" 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. "
Did all of those things happen during that generation? Was Israel reformed in the first century CE or 1948 CE?
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
I was assuming you were aware of his results... since you made so many claims about him
But you agree that if he found the missing Cypriot important pottery you and Kate Kenyon cry 'uncle' and accept defeat?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, I need something with its roots in peer review. So far your sources have been laughable.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
Depends on what 'all things were' but they did see the kingdom of God come in power when they experienced the resurrection and witnessed the ascension
The gospell was said to be preached to all nations and then the end would come.... and the gospel was not preached to all nations
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
that was clearly not the subject of that prophecy. Nice attempt at moving the goalposts.
whirlingmerc
Well-Known Member
"...The Jericho of City IV, in Kenyon’s own words was "something of a backwater." She should not have been surprised by the absence of Cypriote imports in Late Bronze Jericho. She should have paid greater attention to the locally made household pottery she did find, especially because she was dependent on a very limited excavation area in a poor section of the city – the last place to look for exotic imported materials...."
Did the Israelites Conquer Jericho? A New Look at the Archaeological Evidence
"...Cypriot bichrome ware – pottery decorated in two colors. Now known as a key indicator of Late Bronze Age occupation, this pottery, excavated by Garstang at Jericho, is just what Kenyon later looked for, unsuccessfully. These sherds were found on the east side of the tell, apparently having slid there when a large structure upslope eroded. In Garstang’s day, the significance of such bichrome ware was not yet appreciated, and he failed to single it out from the other pottery types he uncovered. As fate would have it, Kenyon, who well knew the link of such ware to the Late Bronze Age, conducted her dig too far north of the eroded runoff to find any bichrome ware. Had she dug further south, or had she been aware of Garstang’s finds, the debate over the date of Jericho’s fall could have taken a very different course: Kenyon might have dated Jericho’s demise to about 1400 B.C.E., (as Garstang did) and not to about 1550 B.C.E., the end of the Middle Bronze Age. Why Kenyon did not study Garstang’s finds more closely remains a mystery..."
so.. sadly Gastange already had Cypriot pottery.... Kathleen Kenyon just ignored it
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Quotes without sources are less than worthless.
Edit .I see there was a source. Bogus sources are not much better.