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Eternal Hell, Scripture or ignorant theory?
- Thread starter Truth101
- Start date
Psalms 11:5
5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
truth101 said .This is a relative statement from David. It is not the man himself that God hates it is the abominations of the person which God hates. In relation to Davids perception God hates the wicked. He hates wickedness.
2Peter 1:21
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
This is an emphatic statement from God as the Holy Spirit moved David to reveal the thoughts and intents of the will of God.
The man David without the Holy Spirit speaking through him couldnt and wouldnt be able to declare the mind of the LORD.
They are the testimonies of the Spirit of Christ!
1Cor. 2:8
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
You cant understand the Bible with your own wisdom! Carnal understanding will never please God; in fact a carnal man is at war with God with the battle already set in array.
The final battle is between Christ and His saints against Satan and the wicked.
The outcome is already known, Satan and the wicked that God hates will die in this battle.
The wicked are resurrected from the first death, the death of their bodies which was only a shadow of the eternal. John 5:29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
This is the last day, of this earths existence!
Even in physical death there is no hiding from Judgment Day
Rev. 20:20
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.
This death is the death of all death; call the Second Death, spiritual death.
5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
truth101 said .This is a relative statement from David. It is not the man himself that God hates it is the abominations of the person which God hates. In relation to Davids perception God hates the wicked. He hates wickedness.
2Peter 1:21
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
This is an emphatic statement from God as the Holy Spirit moved David to reveal the thoughts and intents of the will of God.
The man David without the Holy Spirit speaking through him couldnt and wouldnt be able to declare the mind of the LORD.
They are the testimonies of the Spirit of Christ!
1Cor. 2:8
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
You cant understand the Bible with your own wisdom! Carnal understanding will never please God; in fact a carnal man is at war with God with the battle already set in array.
The final battle is between Christ and His saints against Satan and the wicked.
The outcome is already known, Satan and the wicked that God hates will die in this battle.
The wicked are resurrected from the first death, the death of their bodies which was only a shadow of the eternal. John 5:29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
This is the last day, of this earths existence!
Even in physical death there is no hiding from Judgment Day
Rev. 20:20
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.
This death is the death of all death; call the Second Death, spiritual death.
CONTINUED
..
This Spiritual death is the death of their souls, which was created to exist forever.
Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Hebrews 2:3
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
This life is the cross roads into eternity!
There is no other Salvation plan!
There is no other way to escape Gods final Judgment of the wicked!
Acts 4:12
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Luke 20: 17-18
17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Those that say, the Satan and the wicked will be purified, have neglect the great salvation that God provided in Christ.
Christ is the Chief Corner Stone of the Temple of the LORD.
Christ will grind the wicked to powder on Judgment Day, casting them into eternal damnation.
God has allowed the wicked to continue in contempt.
But on Judgment Day, when the wicked are made to stand before the Eternal King, they will bow the knee.
But its too late for mercy that Day has past! 2Cor. 6:2
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Dont let the false doctrine of future purification deceive you with these vain words.
Eph.5: 6
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
This Spiritual death is the death of their souls, which was created to exist forever.
Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Hebrews 2:3
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
This life is the cross roads into eternity!
There is no other Salvation plan!
There is no other way to escape Gods final Judgment of the wicked!
Acts 4:12
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Luke 20: 17-18
17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Those that say, the Satan and the wicked will be purified, have neglect the great salvation that God provided in Christ.
Christ is the Chief Corner Stone of the Temple of the LORD.
Christ will grind the wicked to powder on Judgment Day, casting them into eternal damnation.
God has allowed the wicked to continue in contempt.
But on Judgment Day, when the wicked are made to stand before the Eternal King, they will bow the knee.
But its too late for mercy that Day has past! 2Cor. 6:2
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Dont let the false doctrine of future purification deceive you with these vain words.
Eph.5: 6
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
CONTINUED
..
truth101 said .This is a relative statement from David. It is not the man himself that God hates it is the abominations of the person which God hates. In relation to Davids perception God hates the wicked. He hates wickedness.
Psalms 11:5
5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
God said, the wicked his soul hates!
If you cant accept this truth, it is because God hasnt yet revealed this to you by his Spirit.
You continue to read the Bible as if it can be understood with your puny carnal mind.
It must be understood by the Spirit of God.
It cant be understood with mans wisdom.
When God wants to make known that he also has a hatred for the works of the wicked, God fully declares this to us.
Proverbs 15:8-9
9 The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.
Tying these two verses together without truth101 commentary.
We see:
Yes, this is plain as Day!
Proverbs 8:10
8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
truth101 said .This is a relative statement from David. It is not the man himself that God hates it is the abominations of the person which God hates. In relation to Davids perception God hates the wicked. He hates wickedness.
Psalms 11:5
5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
God said, the wicked his soul hates!
If you cant accept this truth, it is because God hasnt yet revealed this to you by his Spirit.
You continue to read the Bible as if it can be understood with your puny carnal mind.
It must be understood by the Spirit of God.
It cant be understood with mans wisdom.
When God wants to make known that he also has a hatred for the works of the wicked, God fully declares this to us.
Proverbs 15:8-9
9 The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.
Tying these two verses together without truth101 commentary.
We see:
- God hates the wicked!
- God hates the way of the wicked!
Yes, this is plain as Day!
Proverbs 8:10
8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
FerverentGodSeeker Said:
Lets look to Strongs definitions to get a clearer picture of what the problem is with the definitions given by Dr strong.
In many Bibles the Greek word: "aion" is translated as "forever," and "aionios" is translated, "everlasting," or "eternal."
Strong's Greek Dictionary defines "aion" as follows: "an age, perpetuity, the world, a Messianic period, course, eternal, forever, evermore, without end." Strong's defines the adjective aionios as follows: "perpetual, eternal, forever, everlasting."
Are these definitions good scholarship or religious bias? Imagine defining the word "white" like this: "white, WHITE LIGHT, bright, maximum lightness, brilliant, blanch, off-white, shaded, light gray, dark gray, between light and dark, dark gray, dark, COAL BLACK." Does anyone see a problem with my definition of "white?" Does anyone see a problem with Strong's definition of "aion/aionios?"
Before I hear screams of Godly inspired translations I would like to make clear that when a decieving spirit is sent it is God who sends that decieving spirit(1kings 22:22-23, 2Chr 18:21-22). With that being said this is a strong delusion that is sent of God. Their was many reasons in the time of the king james translation for these blatent mistranslations (I will not go into detail here). The bottom line is this sequence of definition not only give us extreme confusion from scripture but they defy all logical grammar in which our translator used mostly to translate into our english version. "Aion never means anything more that an age. Furthermore if Aion means eternity, how come we find aion is also pluralised? If eternity is without beginning or end how can we have more than one if there is nothing bigger?
Here is another example of what is being said here...
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting (aionios) kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Here we are told that the kingdom is an everlasting one. And this means without end. Would you disagree?
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (thousand years, not forever)
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The problem you are having with understanding how all this fits together is because you first accept the mistranslations of "aion" and "aionios" (not your own fault, until you see the truth then deny it anyway just to hold on to your false docrines in which you have been made to eat since you became a christian). The other thing is the belief that the kingdom reign of Christ and His elect will last forever when we are expressly told it comes to an end after a thousand years. If you continue to believe these things you will eventually have to compromise scripture in order to hold on to them which will just sink you deeper and deeper into deception. I do pray that you see the problems here and seek as for hidden treasure the mystery of the Kingdom. Hear those words? HIDDEN TREASURE, MYSTERY. These things are hidden from all and the elect who are chosen out of the called are the only ones who recieve the spirit of truth while all other are given lying spirits. Many are called to hear but few are chosen to percieve. Many are called to see but few are chosen to understand.
I will post on the rest of your post after work.
God Bless, Dave
The Jews sadly ignored the cry of God through His prophets for roughly the same amount of time and still continue to reject Christ until this time. How do you claim that because Christians have held onto the same doctrine for 2000 years give you faith that they are correct? I would get into the history of the church and reveal where it all went wrong but it is impossible to post all that history on a forum. Instead, I will tell you what went wrong by answering your question at the end of this paragraph.
First of all let us deal with the translation into Eternal and forever and ever.
Lets look to Strongs definitions to get a clearer picture of what the problem is with the definitions given by Dr strong.
In many Bibles the Greek word: "aion" is translated as "forever," and "aionios" is translated, "everlasting," or "eternal."
Strong's Greek Dictionary defines "aion" as follows: "an age, perpetuity, the world, a Messianic period, course, eternal, forever, evermore, without end." Strong's defines the adjective aionios as follows: "perpetual, eternal, forever, everlasting."
Are these definitions good scholarship or religious bias? Imagine defining the word "white" like this: "white, WHITE LIGHT, bright, maximum lightness, brilliant, blanch, off-white, shaded, light gray, dark gray, between light and dark, dark gray, dark, COAL BLACK." Does anyone see a problem with my definition of "white?" Does anyone see a problem with Strong's definition of "aion/aionios?"
Before I hear screams of Godly inspired translations I would like to make clear that when a decieving spirit is sent it is God who sends that decieving spirit(1kings 22:22-23, 2Chr 18:21-22). With that being said this is a strong delusion that is sent of God. Their was many reasons in the time of the king james translation for these blatent mistranslations (I will not go into detail here). The bottom line is this sequence of definition not only give us extreme confusion from scripture but they defy all logical grammar in which our translator used mostly to translate into our english version. "Aion never means anything more that an age. Furthermore if Aion means eternity, how come we find aion is also pluralised? If eternity is without beginning or end how can we have more than one if there is nothing bigger?
Here is another example of what is being said here...
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting (aionios) kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Here we are told that the kingdom is an everlasting one. And this means without end. Would you disagree?
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (thousand years, not forever)
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The problem you are having with understanding how all this fits together is because you first accept the mistranslations of "aion" and "aionios" (not your own fault, until you see the truth then deny it anyway just to hold on to your false docrines in which you have been made to eat since you became a christian). The other thing is the belief that the kingdom reign of Christ and His elect will last forever when we are expressly told it comes to an end after a thousand years. If you continue to believe these things you will eventually have to compromise scripture in order to hold on to them which will just sink you deeper and deeper into deception. I do pray that you see the problems here and seek as for hidden treasure the mystery of the Kingdom. Hear those words? HIDDEN TREASURE, MYSTERY. These things are hidden from all and the elect who are chosen out of the called are the only ones who recieve the spirit of truth while all other are given lying spirits. Many are called to hear but few are chosen to percieve. Many are called to see but few are chosen to understand.
I will post on the rest of your post after work.
God Bless, Dave
FerventGodSeeker
Believer
Simply because I believe the promises of Christ to always be with His Church and to guide them into all truth, as the pillar and ground of truth that the Church is. I would go deeper into this but it would be getting off track.Truth101 said:
The fact that the words are BASED upon the root words in Greek for "age" etc, does not negate the widely accepted fact among Greek scholars that the words themselves mean "forever", "eternal", etc. For example:
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting (aionios) life." John 3:16
Truth101's translation: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should have life for a little while."
"Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. (same Greek phrase as the "torment forever and ever" verse earlier)" Rev. 7:12
Truth101's translation: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God for a little while."
As I hope you can see, you cannot have it both ways. The Greek phrases you claim are only indicative of a limited time are clearly used throughout Scripture with reference to eternality. For the many times that the Greek aionios is used to denote eternal punishment, it is used even more times to denote eternal LIFE, and yet I don't see you claiming that salvation is only temporary.
A modified form of "aion", i.e. "aionios", is what is being referred to in reference to eternality.
No, I wouldn't disagree.
If you honestly interpret numbers literally in a symbolic vision , I'm not seeing how you possibly lecture me on correct Biblical interpretation.
The end of what? It never says God stops reigning, God (and Christ) are the same yesterday, today and forever. He is eternally King.
FerventGodSeeker
ferverentgodseeker said:
You have misunderstood what these words should say and state them in a manner you understand them to mean but it is the wrong approach and is a grammatical impossiblity either way you look at it.
"God so loved the world that He gave His only beggotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should have aionios life." Because aionios is an adjective and is pertaining to an age then it is clearly apparent that it is refering to a specific age. Those who believe in Him will have life in the kingdom age while all others remain in aionios death through this age. They are not ressurrected until the end of this kingdom age. This is why they recieve "aionios death", aionios here is pertaining to death through the kingdom age but following this specific age they will be ressurrected.
Furthermore, Just because they are given aionios life in the kingdom age does not make their life temporal. It just means this kingdom age is temporal and they will live on but no longer in that specific age. The kingdom age has a specific purpose and it will continue till Christ has put down all rule and reign, for He must reign TIL he has made all enemies His footstool. Once, in this age, all has been put into subjection to Him He "PUTS DOWN ALL RULE AND REIGN", and gives up the kingdom to His Father and then God will be ALL IN ALL.
You stated I cannot have it both ways yet it works both ways the same. They are both temporal. The life goes on but not in the same state of ruling and reigning with Christ or being put through the fire. Both are temporal. The fire is for purifying, it is remedial. It will burn away all hay and stubble (wickedness, disobedience, etc.) As the demon possessed man they will come out being made whole washed clean in their right mind giving God the glory for all they have recieved.
ferverentgodseeker said:
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end
ferverentgodseeker said:
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
These words are so clear that it amazes me how you cannot see. You say "it never says that God stops reigning." The kingdom age is Christs rule and reign with His elect. It is God the Father who puts everything under Christ. It is Christs rulership until He puts it down. That is how this kingdom ends. Once all has been put in subjection to Christ it is evident that God the Father is accepted (by all). At this point God can be ALL IN ALL because up until this point Gods plan was not completed. Now that all has been put into subjection, God is able to be all in all. As long as there was still sin and wickedness and rebellion Christ had to reign. Remember "For He MUST REIGN TILL(signifying an end once the following is completed) he hath put all enemies under his feet. The word "till" provides us with a clear understanding that His aionios reign (kingdom reign) ends. He reigns "till".
Aionios life = resurrected and given life in the kingdom to rule and reign with Christ "till" all has been put into subjection to Christ.
Aionios death = Not taking part in the first resurrection and remaning dead through the kingdom age until the END of the age at which time they take part in the second resurrection and they experiance the second death
Second death = Having their part in the lake of fire (symbolic lake, symbolic fire) which shall try every mans work. These people suffer a great loss and their shame is witnessed by all but it does not last forever. Do not think for a second that I believe this to be confortable or painless for the receiver. I do not wish this even on an enemy. The terrors of the Lord deserve their recognition. It is not to be taken lightly just because the duration is any less than eternal.
I have heard the argumant that because the word aionios is used as a description of God, for example "the everlasting (aionios) God" that this word must mean eternity and nothing less because God himself is eternal.
Well, Although it is true that God is eternal (without beginning and end) does not for a second prove tthat this word means eternal.
Since we also read that God is the God of Abraham, do we assume that He is not the God of all creation? Sillyness! He is just as eternal as He is the God of all creation. Just because the scriptures state that He is the God of a specific age or of all the ages does not make Him Himself any less enduring than eternity. The statement is not refering to Gods eternal existance. It is stating He is the one who has purposed the ages or a specific age Himself therefore He is the God of those ages. Specifically the kingdom age because no flesh will see this kingdom and those who have an insight into this kingdom see it only by the spirit because carnal eyes cannot perceive nor understand.
God Bless, Dave
Aionios is the adjective of the noun aion and cannot take on a greater meaning than the noun it is derived from. With this said we know that aion means an age so how do the definitions of aionios compare with this? according to Dr strong the adjective takes on a greater meaning.The fact that the words are BASED upon the root words in Greek for "age" etc, does not negate the widely accepted fact among Greek scholars that the words themselves mean "forever", "eternal", etc. For example:
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting (aionios) life." John 3:16
Truth101's translation: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should have life for a little while."
You have misunderstood what these words should say and state them in a manner you understand them to mean but it is the wrong approach and is a grammatical impossiblity either way you look at it.
"God so loved the world that He gave His only beggotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should have aionios life." Because aionios is an adjective and is pertaining to an age then it is clearly apparent that it is refering to a specific age. Those who believe in Him will have life in the kingdom age while all others remain in aionios death through this age. They are not ressurrected until the end of this kingdom age. This is why they recieve "aionios death", aionios here is pertaining to death through the kingdom age but following this specific age they will be ressurrected.
Furthermore, Just because they are given aionios life in the kingdom age does not make their life temporal. It just means this kingdom age is temporal and they will live on but no longer in that specific age. The kingdom age has a specific purpose and it will continue till Christ has put down all rule and reign, for He must reign TIL he has made all enemies His footstool. Once, in this age, all has been put into subjection to Him He "PUTS DOWN ALL RULE AND REIGN", and gives up the kingdom to His Father and then God will be ALL IN ALL.
You stated I cannot have it both ways yet it works both ways the same. They are both temporal. The life goes on but not in the same state of ruling and reigning with Christ or being put through the fire. Both are temporal. The fire is for purifying, it is remedial. It will burn away all hay and stubble (wickedness, disobedience, etc.) As the demon possessed man they will come out being made whole washed clean in their right mind giving God the glory for all they have recieved.
ferverentgodseeker said:
I am not saying it lasts for exactly 1000 years but what is clear is that it is not eternal. Furthermore, if you could give me your interpretation as to what the symbolic meaning of this number is that would be great. I have my understanding but I would like to here what yours is.If you honestly interpret numbers literally in a symbolic vision , I'm not seeing how you possibly lecture me on correct Biblical interpretation.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end
ferverentgodseeker said:
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, (end of the kingdom)when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
These words are so clear that it amazes me how you cannot see. You say "it never says that God stops reigning." The kingdom age is Christs rule and reign with His elect. It is God the Father who puts everything under Christ. It is Christs rulership until He puts it down. That is how this kingdom ends. Once all has been put in subjection to Christ it is evident that God the Father is accepted (by all). At this point God can be ALL IN ALL because up until this point Gods plan was not completed. Now that all has been put into subjection, God is able to be all in all. As long as there was still sin and wickedness and rebellion Christ had to reign. Remember "For He MUST REIGN TILL(signifying an end once the following is completed) he hath put all enemies under his feet. The word "till" provides us with a clear understanding that His aionios reign (kingdom reign) ends. He reigns "till".
Aionios life = resurrected and given life in the kingdom to rule and reign with Christ "till" all has been put into subjection to Christ.
Aionios death = Not taking part in the first resurrection and remaning dead through the kingdom age until the END of the age at which time they take part in the second resurrection and they experiance the second death
Second death = Having their part in the lake of fire (symbolic lake, symbolic fire) which shall try every mans work. These people suffer a great loss and their shame is witnessed by all but it does not last forever. Do not think for a second that I believe this to be confortable or painless for the receiver. I do not wish this even on an enemy. The terrors of the Lord deserve their recognition. It is not to be taken lightly just because the duration is any less than eternal.
I have heard the argumant that because the word aionios is used as a description of God, for example "the everlasting (aionios) God" that this word must mean eternity and nothing less because God himself is eternal.
Well, Although it is true that God is eternal (without beginning and end) does not for a second prove tthat this word means eternal.
Since we also read that God is the God of Abraham, do we assume that He is not the God of all creation? Sillyness! He is just as eternal as He is the God of all creation. Just because the scriptures state that He is the God of a specific age or of all the ages does not make Him Himself any less enduring than eternity. The statement is not refering to Gods eternal existance. It is stating He is the one who has purposed the ages or a specific age Himself therefore He is the God of those ages. Specifically the kingdom age because no flesh will see this kingdom and those who have an insight into this kingdom see it only by the spirit because carnal eyes cannot perceive nor understand.
God Bless, Dave
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Member
I believe the word "hell" in the Bible is sometimes translated from a word that means "grave" and sometimes it is translated from a word that means "ghehana fire" (excuse my spelling). It can refer to the grave, but it can also refer to the lake of fire.
The Bible does teach that unrepentant sinners will be cast into the lake of fire and suffer enternal punishment. But the suffering does not go on for ever. The Bible teaches that the wicked are destroyed in the lake of fire and will be as if they never existed. The Bible does not teach that the soul is immortal, but that immortality is a gift from God. God in the old testament says that the soul that sins shall die, and Jesus said to fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell fire.
Throughout the Bible the contrast between the fate of the wicked and the fate of the saved is always death vs. life, not suffering vs. happiness.
What about the term "eternal punishment"? Eternal punishment does not mean eternal punishing. The punishment is eternal because death in the lake of fire, called the second death, is forever. It is a death for which there will never be a resurrection.
So God does not cause any human to suffer forever in hell fire.
The Bible does teach that unrepentant sinners will be cast into the lake of fire and suffer enternal punishment. But the suffering does not go on for ever. The Bible teaches that the wicked are destroyed in the lake of fire and will be as if they never existed. The Bible does not teach that the soul is immortal, but that immortality is a gift from God. God in the old testament says that the soul that sins shall die, and Jesus said to fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell fire.
Throughout the Bible the contrast between the fate of the wicked and the fate of the saved is always death vs. life, not suffering vs. happiness.
What about the term "eternal punishment"? Eternal punishment does not mean eternal punishing. The punishment is eternal because death in the lake of fire, called the second death, is forever. It is a death for which there will never be a resurrection.
So God does not cause any human to suffer forever in hell fire.
Ferverentgodseeker said:
The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. R. F. Weymouth: Eternal: Greek: "aeonion," i.e., "of the ages." Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify "during," but "belong to" the aeons or ages."
Elliots Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46(. Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aioniosit must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25).
Hastings Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. I, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels): Eternity. There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity. (Vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlastingnonetheless "eternal" is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of "endlessly existing," and thus to be practically a synonym for "everlasting." But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes. (p. 370):
The chronoios aioniois moreover, are not to be thought of as stretching backward everlastingly, as it is proved by the pro chronon aionion of II Tim. 1:9; Titus. 1:2. (Note: pro chronon aionion means "BEFORE times eonian." Since this Scripture tells us that there was time "before" eonian, eionian cannot possibly mean eternal, for nothing can be "before" eternity.
Dr. R. F. Weymouth, a translator who was adept in Greek, states in The New Testament in Modern Speech (p. 657), Eternal, Greek aeonion, i.e., of the ages: Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed does not signify, "during" but "belonging to" the aeons or ages.
Dr. Marvin Vincent, Word Studies of the New Testament (Vol. IV, p. 59). The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective in themselves carries the sense of "endless" or "everlasting. Anionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.
Dr. F. W. Farrar, author of The Life of Christ and The Life and Word of St. Paul, as well as books about Greek grammar and syntax, writes in The Eternal Hope (p. 198), "That the adjective is applied to some things which are endless does not, of course, for one moment prove that the word itself meant endless; and to introduce this rendering into many passages would be utterly impossible and absurd."
As you can see there are many scholars who understand what I am trying to help you understand.
God bless, Dave
You will find that this is a false statement since the damage has already been done the voice of reason is seldom heard. For example I have an amazingly huge list of scholars including many Geek and their quotes who are in opposition to what you state is a widely accepted fact by them. I will list a few and If you would like all of them I can private message you with the rest. Take care to actually read what is being said by them.
The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. R. F. Weymouth: Eternal: Greek: "aeonion," i.e., "of the ages." Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify "during," but "belong to" the aeons or ages."
Elliots Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46(. Everlasting punishment--life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aioniosit must be admitted that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25).
Hastings Dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. I, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels): Eternity. There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity. (Vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlastingnonetheless "eternal" is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of "endlessly existing," and thus to be practically a synonym for "everlasting." But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes. (p. 370):
The chronoios aioniois moreover, are not to be thought of as stretching backward everlastingly, as it is proved by the pro chronon aionion of II Tim. 1:9; Titus. 1:2. (Note: pro chronon aionion means "BEFORE times eonian." Since this Scripture tells us that there was time "before" eonian, eionian cannot possibly mean eternal, for nothing can be "before" eternity.
Dr. R. F. Weymouth, a translator who was adept in Greek, states in The New Testament in Modern Speech (p. 657), Eternal, Greek aeonion, i.e., of the ages: Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed does not signify, "during" but "belonging to" the aeons or ages.
Dr. Marvin Vincent, Word Studies of the New Testament (Vol. IV, p. 59). The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective in themselves carries the sense of "endless" or "everlasting. Anionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.
Dr. F. W. Farrar, author of The Life of Christ and The Life and Word of St. Paul, as well as books about Greek grammar and syntax, writes in The Eternal Hope (p. 198), "That the adjective is applied to some things which are endless does not, of course, for one moment prove that the word itself meant endless; and to introduce this rendering into many passages would be utterly impossible and absurd."
As you can see there are many scholars who understand what I am trying to help you understand.
God bless, Dave
truth101 said
I have an amazingly huge list of scholars including many Geek and their quotes who are in opposition to what you state is a widely accepted fact by them. I will list a few and If you would like all of them I can private message you with the rest. Take care to actually read what is being said by them.
First on all, just because they have the initials Dr. before their name makes them no more qualified than anyone else. This initial gives them no authority over anyone, unless you give them that authority, so that they can rule over you.
1Cor. 2:6
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
We are commanded to Study for ourselves, so that we will not be ashamed (found without Christ) on the Day of Judgment, being cast into eternal destruction, because we didnt study the word ourselves and then Rightly compare scripture with scripture.
2Tim. 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
God commends the people of Berea, because they searched the scriptures to find out for themselves.
Acts 17:11
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
1Cor. 2:7
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
You will not find the wisdom of God in Elliots Commentary on the Whole Bible
The mystery of God will not be found in The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. R. F. Weymouth
Your search for the Hidden wisdom of God cannot be acquired from Hastings Dictionary of the New Testament,and the works of Dr. Marvin Vincent, Word Studies of the New Testament
In their works you will not find what God has prepared for them that diligently seek Him.
John 5:39
39 Search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
All the above books came from the Mind of Man!
How trustworthy is that?
First on all, just because they have the initials Dr. before their name makes them no more qualified than anyone else. This initial gives them no authority over anyone, unless you give them that authority, so that they can rule over you.
1Cor. 2:6
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
We are commanded to Study for ourselves, so that we will not be ashamed (found without Christ) on the Day of Judgment, being cast into eternal destruction, because we didnt study the word ourselves and then Rightly compare scripture with scripture.
2Tim. 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
God commends the people of Berea, because they searched the scriptures to find out for themselves.
Acts 17:11
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
1Cor. 2:7
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
You will not find the wisdom of God in Elliots Commentary on the Whole Bible
The mystery of God will not be found in The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. R. F. Weymouth
Your search for the Hidden wisdom of God cannot be acquired from Hastings Dictionary of the New Testament,and the works of Dr. Marvin Vincent, Word Studies of the New Testament
In their works you will not find what God has prepared for them that diligently seek Him.
John 5:39
39 Search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
All the above books came from the Mind of Man!
How trustworthy is that?
CONTINUED
.
Search the scriptures my follow sojourners!
Let no man deceive you with vain words!
Eph. 5:6
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Search the Books written by God:
Gods Word, Commentary on the Whole Bible
Gods Word, Dictionary of the Old Testament and the New Testament.
John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Where must you be in order for the Holy Spirit to teach you all things?
Searching the scriptures daily.
Meditating of the Bible always.
Studying the Word of God continually.
Praying that God would reveal to you by the Holy Spirit (not men) what God has prepared for those that diligently seek Him.
1Cor. 2:9-10
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
In fact, what you will find is what King Solomon found, (He exceeded all the kings of the earth in Wisdom!)
Eccl. 12:8-10
8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.
9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.
10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth
What Solomon found, other than seeking, searching and studying the Word of Truth, every thing is vanity, it is useless and a waste of time.
Eccl. 12:12
12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
Look at all the books that have been written; truly there is no end in site.
truth101 said I have an amazingly huge list of scholars
In fact, if you constantly waste your time in this endless sea of confusion, you will become physically and mentallyfatigue.
Studying these books: You will grow tired of the long hours of work you have done.
Studying these books: You will grow weary, because there is no life in them.
John 6:63
63 It is the spirit that give life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
When it comes to understanding the scripture, only the Holy Spirit can guide you into all truth.
In fact, as you faithfully read and become familiar with the language of the Holy Spirit, this is where God meets you.
God promised He would send the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit will be your Teacher and reveal to you the deep things of God.
Faith comes by Hearing the Word of God!
Spend your limited Time searching the Bible.
Psalms 119:99
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for your testimonies are my meditation.
Why did this Psalmist have more understanding than all his teachers?
Was it because he read and studied all the books of man?
Was it because he was a Dr. in theology?
Was it because he was a Hebrew and Greek Scholar?
No!
No!
No!
No!
It was simply because the Word of God was his Meditation!
He needed no man to teach him! Why?
Because, the Holy Spirit was his Teacher
Search the scriptures my follow sojourners!
Let no man deceive you with vain words!
Eph. 5:6
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Search the Books written by God:
Gods Word, Commentary on the Whole Bible
Gods Word, Dictionary of the Old Testament and the New Testament.
John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Where must you be in order for the Holy Spirit to teach you all things?
Searching the scriptures daily.
Meditating of the Bible always.
Studying the Word of God continually.
Praying that God would reveal to you by the Holy Spirit (not men) what God has prepared for those that diligently seek Him.
1Cor. 2:9-10
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
In fact, what you will find is what King Solomon found, (He exceeded all the kings of the earth in Wisdom!)
Eccl. 12:8-10
8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.
9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.
10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth
What Solomon found, other than seeking, searching and studying the Word of Truth, every thing is vanity, it is useless and a waste of time.
Eccl. 12:12
12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
Look at all the books that have been written; truly there is no end in site.
truth101 said I have an amazingly huge list of scholars
In fact, if you constantly waste your time in this endless sea of confusion, you will become physically and mentallyfatigue.
Studying these books: You will grow tired of the long hours of work you have done.
Studying these books: You will grow weary, because there is no life in them.
John 6:63
63 It is the spirit that give life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
When it comes to understanding the scripture, only the Holy Spirit can guide you into all truth.
In fact, as you faithfully read and become familiar with the language of the Holy Spirit, this is where God meets you.
God promised He would send the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit will be your Teacher and reveal to you the deep things of God.
Faith comes by Hearing the Word of God!
Spend your limited Time searching the Bible.
Psalms 119:99
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for your testimonies are my meditation.
Why did this Psalmist have more understanding than all his teachers?
Was it because he read and studied all the books of man?
Was it because he was a Dr. in theology?
Was it because he was a Hebrew and Greek Scholar?
No!
No!
No!
No!
It was simply because the Word of God was his Meditation!
He needed no man to teach him! Why?
Because, the Holy Spirit was his Teacher
Bibleonly said:
As I said before discussing anything with you always ends up with the same end...You claiming that anything said from any source whether me or anyone is all carnal human understanding so why do you continue to discuss anything with me or anyone else if this is what you believe?
Now, I was merely making a point by offering these quotes because I was told by ferverentgodseeker that he/she trusts more in the widely held view by scholars that aionios is defined as eternal.
The bible you use is no different than any other translations. They are all translated by man and there has never been a translation from hebrew and greek into english that has been flawless so you can hold your tonge concerning this because the very bible you quote from repeatedly is not exempt.
God Bless, Dave
I guess you yourself are able to translated from the original manuscripts into english without flaw because you insist that it alll comes from the mind of men and trust nothing. I didnt say I trust these scholars anymore than I trust the scholars that believe aionios means eternal. My very point is to search out all to test the spirit by comparing it to scripture which was also translated by likeminded "Dr's". How can you trust the king james translators and the niv translators or any translators from the bibles you use to make your claims? All english translations are exactly that.....translations. The list I offered was of translators of certain bibles. You trust the KGV, and you hold this version as though it was devinely inspired and flawless. You err, just as you err by not knowing the scriptures. It is by usage that a word is defined and this has been my method throughout our discussions. You just refuse to listen to truth and continue to twist the scriptures as you squirm to find a way (by any means) to just merely prove me wrong. You have no interest in truth as I said before. You are only after your own glory.
As I said before discussing anything with you always ends up with the same end...You claiming that anything said from any source whether me or anyone is all carnal human understanding so why do you continue to discuss anything with me or anyone else if this is what you believe?
Now, I was merely making a point by offering these quotes because I was told by ferverentgodseeker that he/she trusts more in the widely held view by scholars that aionios is defined as eternal.
The bible you use is no different than any other translations. They are all translated by man and there has never been a translation from hebrew and greek into english that has been flawless so you can hold your tonge concerning this because the very bible you quote from repeatedly is not exempt.
God Bless, Dave
Bibleonly said:
God Bless, Dave
This may fatigue you but it is not I but the Lord who is in me where I draw my strength. I never grow tired because it is by the spirit that I understand. It is true you will not find life in books, the life comes directly from God. We are to live in spirit and in truth and everything that we do should be in the spirit and in truth. It is only God who can carry us there. I search out everything to find the truth. If our translations have flaws I want to know what they are, unlike you who trust every word in a trnslated bible yet you say that everything that comes from the mind of man is carnal and merely human understanding. To escape your own hypocritical words you would need to learn both aramaic, ancient hebrew and ancient greek in order to go directly to the unadulterated word of God (all available manuscripts)without flaw. It is you who has taken the word of man and believed it when God is trying to show you the false doctrine and you just keep on calling it human reasoning. You call it human reasoning because you are indoctrinated and cannot see the truth for all the lies of religion and mistranslations. 1600 years of deception does not make anything true just because its been around for so long.
God Bless, Dave
truth101 said we know that aion means an age
This has never been established or verified by scripture!
In fact the Greek word aion is never translated age!
Never!
Look for your self and search the scriptures for the word age and youll see that it was not translated from the word aion.
God uses the word aion 125 times in the New Testament.
Translated:
ever and ever ever - forever - evermore: 76 times
world - world began - beginning of the world: 38 times
never: 7 times
ages (plural): 2 times never in the singular form!
course: 1 time
eternal: 1 time
God uses the word aionios 72 times in the New Testament.
Translated:
eternal: 41 times
everlasting: 25 times
world: 2 times
ever and ever: 1 time
evermore: 1 time
1 Tim. 6:21
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
Romans 1:22
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
This has never been established or verified by scripture!
In fact the Greek word aion is never translated age!
Never!
Look for your self and search the scriptures for the word age and youll see that it was not translated from the word aion.
God uses the word aion 125 times in the New Testament.
Translated:
ever and ever ever - forever - evermore: 76 times
world - world began - beginning of the world: 38 times
never: 7 times
ages (plural): 2 times never in the singular form!
course: 1 time
eternal: 1 time
God uses the word aionios 72 times in the New Testament.
Translated:
eternal: 41 times
everlasting: 25 times
world: 2 times
ever and ever: 1 time
evermore: 1 time
1 Tim. 6:21
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
Romans 1:22
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
FerventGodSeeker
Believer
quote=Truth101]
Aionios is the adjective of the noun aion and cannot take on a greater meaning than the noun it is derived from.
[/quote] Unfortunately for your position, Greek scholars simply do not agree with you:
In referring to aionios, The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament by Zodhiates says it means, "eternal, perpetual, belonging to the aion, to time in its duration, constant, abiding. When referring to eternal life, it means the life which is God's and hence it is not affected by the limitations of time..." Of the expression zoe aionios (eternal life), he says, "Since it is His life God gives to the believer through Christ, and He is endless, His life imparted must be endless..." In regards to olethros aionios (eternal punishment) and krima aionion (eternal judgement), he says, "All of these designations of punishment stand in contrast to eternal life as the inherent punishment for those who reject Christ's salvation...As to the duration of what is designated as aionios when it comes to punishment, it is only proper to assign it the same duration or endlessness as to the life which is given by God."
W.E. Vine in his Complete Expository Dictionary of Old And New Testament Words says, "The predominant meaning of aonios...may be seen in 2 Cor. 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit. "for a season," and in Philem. 15, where only in the NT it is used with a noun. Moreover it is used of person and things which are in their nature endless, as e.g., of God...of His power...and of His glory...of the Holy Spirit...of the redemption effected by Christ...and of the consequent salvation of men...as well as of His future rule...which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33;...Aionios is also used of the sin that 'hath never forgiveness,' Mark 3:29, and of the judgement of God, from which there is no appeal, Heb 6:2, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments...and which is elsewhere said to be 'unquenchable,' Mark 9:43. The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in 2 Thess. 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."
Notice how it says that He will give His kingdom to the Father (also God). God will continue to reign eternally because He is King and eternally the same.
FGS
Aionios is the adjective of the noun aion and cannot take on a greater meaning than the noun it is derived from.
[/quote] Unfortunately for your position, Greek scholars simply do not agree with you:
In referring to aionios, The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament by Zodhiates says it means, "eternal, perpetual, belonging to the aion, to time in its duration, constant, abiding. When referring to eternal life, it means the life which is God's and hence it is not affected by the limitations of time..." Of the expression zoe aionios (eternal life), he says, "Since it is His life God gives to the believer through Christ, and He is endless, His life imparted must be endless..." In regards to olethros aionios (eternal punishment) and krima aionion (eternal judgement), he says, "All of these designations of punishment stand in contrast to eternal life as the inherent punishment for those who reject Christ's salvation...As to the duration of what is designated as aionios when it comes to punishment, it is only proper to assign it the same duration or endlessness as to the life which is given by God."
W.E. Vine in his Complete Expository Dictionary of Old And New Testament Words says, "The predominant meaning of aonios...may be seen in 2 Cor. 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit. "for a season," and in Philem. 15, where only in the NT it is used with a noun. Moreover it is used of person and things which are in their nature endless, as e.g., of God...of His power...and of His glory...of the Holy Spirit...of the redemption effected by Christ...and of the consequent salvation of men...as well as of His future rule...which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33;...Aionios is also used of the sin that 'hath never forgiveness,' Mark 3:29, and of the judgement of God, from which there is no appeal, Heb 6:2, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments...and which is elsewhere said to be 'unquenchable,' Mark 9:43. The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in 2 Thess. 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."
So then God cannot or will not give us life that goes on forever? If you do believe that the life He gives us will go on forever, please cite me the verse you would use to demonstrate this.
The verses in question regarding "eternal life" say nothing about life that simply exists in the context of a future temporal kingdom. You believe such a kingdom, and therefore you ASSUME that the "aionios" life that God gives us pertains to that time, although you have no contextual reason to do so. The verses simply state that God will grant us eternal life. You claim this life He gives us is only for an age. When you make this argument, you claim too much. By doing so, you can't point to any verse in the Bible which states that our life will extened indefinitely, because every reference to eternal life in the New Testament employs the Greek words and phrases in question. You therefore have no reason to believe that your life will extend beyond the temporal reign of Christ.
The Catholic Church traditionally holds to Saint Augustine's interpretation of Revelation and the end times, usually referred to in modern times as "amillenialism." We believe that the Church is essentially the Kingdom of God, and that the Church will continue to exist for an indefinite duration (symbolically 1,000 years) on this Earth until Christ returns.
That's because it doesn't
Notice how it says that He will give His kingdom to the Father (also God). God will continue to reign eternally because He is King and eternally the same. No, that's how Christ's reign as High Priest ends. Once all enemies have been defeated when Christ returns, He will hand the kingdom over to His Father: how can He hand it over if it no longer exists?
How do you know God is eternal? Where does the New Testament say this?
FGS
FerventGodSeeker
Believer
Truth101 said:
Precisely...it signifies belonging to, at the very least, an indefinite number of AGES, not just one age as you seem to think it means.
While you're getting closer, even this author can't help but admit that the word denotes a period of indefinite ages, not necesarily just one.
Untrue, because it can indicate an indefinite duration into the future, even though it has a beginning which other things came before. The scholars I cited deal with this, if you would like me to cite them more extensively I can.
You're making my job incredibly easy with quotes like this. The word does not signify life in one particular age as you claim, but rather life in indefinite ages. Thank you for again proving my point.
Nice try, but you misquoted him. In the volume I have, on page 60 that you cited from he states, "The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting. They may acquire that sense by their connotation..."
Would you mind citing one of these passages? In what passage is the word used to describe something which is not intrinsically endless (besides condemnation, hell, etc, which is the bone of contention here)?
Most of the scholars you cited here agree with my own view, as I duly noted, much more than yours.
FGS
Dr. F. W. Farrar, author of The Life of Christ and The Life and Word of St. Paul, as well as books about Greek grammar and syntax, writes in The Eternal Hope (p. 198), "That the adjective is applied to some things which are endless does not, of course, for one moment prove that the word itself meant endless; and to introduce this rendering into many passages would be utterly impossible and absurd."
Ferverentgodseeker said:
I will kill to birds with one stone here. You ask here to give you one of these passages and as well the scripture luke 1:33 which your scholar quoted as proof that aionios must mean eternal. Lets look.
Luke 1:33 "and He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever (aion) ; and of His kingdom there shall be no end."
Jesus does not rule over the house of Jacob forever unless Paul lied when he stated that He rules only until he has put down all enemies. Then He turns the kingdom over to His Father.
All that is OF HIS KINGDOM continues but Jesus as King of the Kingdom ends. Jesus reigns for aions (or proper english translation "eons") not forever. So it is obvious that rendering eternity into this passage is absurd.
Because a word is applied to things that are endless does not prove that the word itself means endless.
Here are just a couple more scriptures in which "aionios" (or proper english translation, eonian)cannot possibly mean ETERNAL:
Rom. 16:25" according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world [ aionios] began. We have the ADJECTIVE word "aionios" and the KJV translators changed it to a NOUN, "world." The word "world" (kosmos) is not found in this verse, furthermore, neither is the word "began." The Greek reads: " in times eonian." Do we really believe in "times eternal." What does "time," let alone "timeS" have to do with "eternity?" And as Paul speaks of the "revelation" of this secret, how could it EVER be revealed if it was kept secret ETERNALLY? Do you not see a problema CONTRADICTION in all of this?
II Thes. 2:16" and has given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace." "Console" is defined as, "To allay sorrow or grief of." "Hope" is defined as, "To wish for something with expectations of its fulfillment." Now then, according to this inane KJV translation of this verse, just how long are we going to have our "SORROW AND GRIEF ALLAYED?" How long must we "HOPE" before we have our hope fulfilled? For ALL ETERNITY? Nonsense.
Fereverentgodseeker said:
God Bless, Dave
Ferverentgodseeker said:
I will kill to birds with one stone here. You ask here to give you one of these passages and as well the scripture luke 1:33 which your scholar quoted as proof that aionios must mean eternal. Lets look.
Luke 1:33 "and He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever (aion) ; and of His kingdom there shall be no end."
Jesus does not rule over the house of Jacob forever unless Paul lied when he stated that He rules only until he has put down all enemies. Then He turns the kingdom over to His Father.
All that is OF HIS KINGDOM continues but Jesus as King of the Kingdom ends. Jesus reigns for aions (or proper english translation "eons") not forever. So it is obvious that rendering eternity into this passage is absurd.
Because a word is applied to things that are endless does not prove that the word itself means endless.
Here are just a couple more scriptures in which "aionios" (or proper english translation, eonian)cannot possibly mean ETERNAL:
Rom. 16:25" according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world [ aionios] began. We have the ADJECTIVE word "aionios" and the KJV translators changed it to a NOUN, "world." The word "world" (kosmos) is not found in this verse, furthermore, neither is the word "began." The Greek reads: " in times eonian." Do we really believe in "times eternal." What does "time," let alone "timeS" have to do with "eternity?" And as Paul speaks of the "revelation" of this secret, how could it EVER be revealed if it was kept secret ETERNALLY? Do you not see a problema CONTRADICTION in all of this?
II Thes. 2:16" and has given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace." "Console" is defined as, "To allay sorrow or grief of." "Hope" is defined as, "To wish for something with expectations of its fulfillment." Now then, according to this inane KJV translation of this verse, just how long are we going to have our "SORROW AND GRIEF ALLAYED?" How long must we "HOPE" before we have our hope fulfilled? For ALL ETERNITY? Nonsense.
Fereverentgodseeker said:
I never said aionios was limited to belonging only to an age. Aion itself in the singular is however only speaking of one indefinate specific period of time. Aionios is the adjective of the noun aion and is pertaining to or belonging to an age or a succession of ages but nevertheless these words are still limited in duration no matter how long they may be.
God Bless, Dave
FerventGodSeeker
Believer
Just so we're clear, the word "aion" is not translated "forever" here, as you seem to think. It is the phrase "eis tous aionios."Truth101 said:Or unless you're interpretation is wrong...
It doesn't simply say that all that was in His kingdom continues, but rather it states that the kingdom itself continues, and it still calls it HIS Kingdom, that will never end. Sorry, no Greek word games to play there, that second phrase does not use any variation of "aion." This is a blatant contradiction of your view.
No, He reigns "eis tous aionios", "to/into indefinite ages," not just one age as you were earlier claiming. Big, huge difference.
Here are just a couple more scriptures in which "aionios" (or proper english translation, eonian)cannot possibly mean ETERNAL:
This phrase is also translated "since time began." (2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 1:2)Eternity is an infinite amount of time....I thought that was rather obvious.
No, I don't. It is perfectly reasonable to interpret these phrases as meaning that the indefinite number/amount of ages, extendingly indefinitely into the future, began at some point in time, and that God and His plans precede that point.
To allay means "to put to rest; quiet, calm; to lessen, relieve, alleviate." God will allay sorrow and grief for all eternity, by not allowing us to ever experience it again.
You think we will never hope for anything once we get to heaven? I certainly think we will. Considering that we're going to be around for all eternity, I certainly hope God constantly shows us new facets of His majesty and glory constantly, so that we constantly have something to hope for. Your argument here is weak at best.
LOL. The entire basis of your argument is that all the references to "aionios" in the Bible (aionios life, aionios punishment, even aionios God) refer to one specific age, the future temporal kingdom of Christ. It's one thing to say, "Ok, I was wrong," or "Ok, I phrased that wrongly," but don't pretend like you haven't been saying what you have been saying all along.
Due to the fact that aionios refers to an indefinite number of ages into the future, the Greeks used it as a reference to eternality.
FGS