Is Jesus the Archangel Michael ?

74x12 said:

This is an obvious straw man argument you're giving here. I believe Jesus was in heaven and is in heaven and will always be. He's God. The scripture says there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the holy Spirit. (1 John 5:7) That scripture has been disparaged and taken out of the Bible by many misguided people. But it's still the truth. It doesn't matter what people believe from their corrupted versions.

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Your still inconsistent.

You state emphatically that in John 17:5 you teach that when Jesus says glory he had with that father that that is in a prophetic sense. That is you teach Jesus was already prophesied or being foretold to come to the earth not that he pre exitsed before the world was.

Your have a presupposition that Jesus is God and at the same time say that Jesus the Man did not exist until he was born of Marry.

This inspite of what Jesus said John 6:62 Where he was before John 6:38 I came down from heaven. The he pronoun and the I pronoun refer to Jesus the man whom you say did not exist until he was born of Mary.

You see Jesus the only created Son of God before the world was, was at the appointed time Gal 4:4 transformed ( God was not transformed but his only created Son was) from one existence Heb 2:9 Heb 2:14 Heb 2:16-17 which Heb 1:4 describes as being above the Angeles and better than the Angels yet below the Majesty on high to a different existence.

Now when I say Jesus the Man existed before the world was it is in this sense . The personality and character and disposition and every thing that Jesus the only created Son of God before the world was was. That is above the angels referring to his type of existences and below the Majesty on High in as far as what he is made of.

All of that was transformed into Flesh Heb 2:17. He was still the created being he was before the world was in regards to his personality,character,disposition attitude ect. But instead of existing in his heavenly material for lake of a better word he chose to become flesh and blood. Heb 2:17 It behooved him to be made like his brothers.

You see that word behooved it means his duty or responsibility. Duty and responsibility are only for those who are alive and exist.

You see it wasn't Gods responsibility or duty to become flesh and blood and die on a cross but it was Jesus his only created Son,s duty. John 6:38 I came down to do my fathers will. Which was Jesus duty and responsibility not the Majesty Duty and responsibility.

Just like it was Isaac who was to be be sacrificed and not Abraham. 2 separated individuals separate from each other. One greater than the other.

Same Jesus the only created Son of God before the world was separate from the Majesty on High but living in a different existence Flesh and Blood.

74x12 said:

You are making a nonsensical argument that Jesus is the son of a man before He was actually born a human. Clearly if Jesus is to be the Son of man; then He must be born human.

I've already explained the passage John 17:5 numerous times but you won't have it so. Just keep it in context of John 17:1 please.

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Your sill avoiding the very important word HAD. Had is past tense as in already experienced, not yet to be experienced.

Had has no prophetic reference here at all.

Thats where you error.

Your blatantly refusing to accept what English words mean because it does not support your interpretation.

74x12 said:

No it isn't what I believe. You're just putting words in my mouth. God can appear in any way He desires and is not limited. He can indeed appear as the Father, Son and holy Spirit at once if He wishes to do so. God's not limited.

The idea of Jesus being God who is a Spirit and yet manifesting in this reality in human form is nonsense to you because God hasn't shown you.

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Apparently there are some things that are impossible for the Majesty on High. God does have limits

Titus 1:2 God can not lie Heb 6:18 Impossible for God to lie.

I would also thing that it would be impossible for God to appear as a female or a murderer or thief or an Idol

God cant appear as the Son according to the God the Hebrew writer knows for he places the Son in a subordinate position at the right had of someone high and greater than himself.

God never appears as subordinate to anyone.

Any way you look at it. on this matter you dont believe what the bible teaches

A.C. Simon said:

Alright so Jehovah Witnessess believe Jesus is creation while actual followers of Jesus believe He is God in the flesh, the creator, which was believed by the first disciples of Christ and the early church. But let me give you an argument as to why Jesus is creator and not creation which can not be denied.
Let me start of by saying a being is either creator or creation. Now in the beginning God spoke creation into existence, He created the universe by His Word: and in the bible(even the JW bible) it says Jesus is the Word that was in the beginning with God (John 1:1). So God created the universe by His Word (Jesus Christ), which means Jesus is not creation, but Creator: and therefore being God; and is not Michael the archangel, who is a part of creation and who Jesus Himself created.

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You are very correct Jesus the word did create the worlds at the command of his Father the Majesty on high. But read very slowly and carefully Heb 1:3. That word that created the worlds Heb 1:2. That same word the creator is described as being subordinated to a being greater and higher than himself who is The Majesty on High.

The Hebrew writer states emphatically that Jesus the Creator is not the Majesty on High.

74x12 said:

I actually do believe in a pre-incarnate Christ. He is God. How can i make myself any clearer than that?

It is you who don't understand.

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According to what you have been teaching all along is that The Christ did not exist until born of Mary!! Thats your pre incarnate Christ. Prior to that Christ was only a prophetic moment waiting to occur according to you.

Apologetics said:

You are very correct Jesus the word did create the worlds at the command of his Father the Majesty on high. But read very slowly and carefully Heb 1:3. That word that created the worlds Heb 1:2. That same word the creator is described as being subordinated to a being greater and higher than himself who is The Majesty on High.

The Hebrew writer states emphatically that Jesus the Creator is not the Majesty on High.

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If Jesus is creator then it means He is not creation; and therefore not Michael the archangel. Only God can create something from nothing. As for your point, your right in that the Father and the Son are different persons, but they are one being. A human being is one being and one person; but God is one being and three persons. The Father is greater in role than the Son, but they are both equal in essence. It’s like the president of America is greater in role than you, but it doesn’t mean he’s more human than you, both of you are equal in essence because both are human beings. The same way the Father has a greater role than the Son, but the Father isn’t more God than the Son, they’re both equal.

Apologetics said:

According to what you have been teaching all along is that The Christ did not exist until born of Mary!! Thats your pre incarnate Christ. Prior to that Christ was only a prophetic moment waiting to occur according to you.

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Christ existed as God but His human nature is born of Mary. It's pretty simple. I'm just kind of surprised how many times I have to repeat myself!

Apologetics said:

Apparently there are some things that are impossible for the Majesty on High. God does have limits

Titus 1:2 God can not lie Heb 6:18 Impossible for God to lie.

I would also thing that it would be impossible for God to appear as a female or a murderer or thief or an Idol

God cant appear as the Son according to the God the Hebrew writer knows for he places the Son in a subordinate position at the right had of someone high and greater than himself.

God never appears as subordinate to anyone.

Any way you look at it. on this matter you dont believe what the bible teaches

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Yes God can't lie but Jesus called Himself the Truth. (John 14:6) It is the Truth that cannot lie. That would be self-refuting.

Any way you look at it. I don't believe the Bible. Are you sure? Remember that you have to be shown the true Father by Jesus Himself. No one can show you the Father other than Jesus. (Matthew 11:27)

Apologetics said:

Your sill avoiding the very important word HAD. Had is past tense as in already experienced, not yet to be experienced.

Had has no prophetic reference here at all.

Thats where you error.

Your blatantly refusing to accept what English words mean because it does not support your interpretation.

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I don't avoid the word had. In this you clearly misrepresent me. The word had means it belongs to Jesus. You can have something that is not currently in your own hands. If we compared the glory to a robe then Jesus could have "had" the robe in a closest waiting for the right time to be worn.

Now there came a time when Jesus would be given the glory which He already had with the Father from before the foundation of the world.

A.C. Simon said:

If Jesus is creator then it means He is not creation; and therefore not Michael the archangel. Only God can create something from nothing. As for your point, your right in that the Father and the Son are different persons, but they are one being. A human being is one being and one person; but God is one being and three persons. The Father is greater in role than the Son, but they are both equal in essence. It’s like the president of America is greater in role than you, but it doesn’t mean he’s more human than you, both of you are equal in essence because both are human beings. The same way the Father has a greater role than the Son, but the Father isn’t more God than the Son, they’re both equal.

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Correct Jesus is not an Angel. The Hebrew writer describes Jesus as being Made better than the angels. Heb 1:4 And again he provides the evidence for his claim in Psalm 2:7 Heb 1:5..

The trinity is a man made doctrine. Jesus Has a separate will distinctly different than the Majesty on High. John 6:38.
Jesus is placed in scripture over and over in an subordinate position. Dan 7:16 My doctrine is not my own.

Jesus is always be described has receiving that which he had not previous been in possession of. Heb 1:2 Appointed heir off all things. God already owns all things he is not in need of inheriting anything. But the only created Son is described as a recipient.

Jesus the creator is not the Majesty on High Heb 1:3, Jesus is not never has been nor ever will be God The Majesty on High. Heb 1:3


You say that Jesus and God are one being. Yet the Hebrew writer clearly for all to read portrays Jesus the Creator of all that we can see subordinate and separate from the Majesty on High for he says is at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Which is a place of honor. Just Like in Gen 41:40-45 Joseph was honored by Pharaoh in being appointed ruler over pharaohs house and all of Egypt. 2 separate beings not one.

The history of Joseph as you know being a picture of a future event Jesus being appointed heir of all things by the Majesty on high. Pslm 2:8-9 Heb 1:2 Dan 7:13 ect.

You said
The Father is greater in role than the Son, but they are both equal in essence. The Hebrew right in the first chapter places Jesus above the Angels yet lower than the Majesty on High There is nothing equal about that. The Majesty on high was not made nor created . But the Son is described as being made and created before the world was John 17:5

Thats not true. There was a time when Jesus the Son of God did not exist.He was created Heb 1:4 Rev 3:14 Col 1:15 Gen 1:1 1 John 1:1

Apologetics said:

Your still inconsistent.

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Show me where I changed my mind.

Apologetics said:

You see it wasn't Gods responsibility or duty to become flesh and blood and die on a cross but it was Jesus his only created Son,s duty. John 6:38 I came down to do my fathers will. Which was Jesus duty and responsibility not the Majesty Duty and responsibility.

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So you say.

Yet I tell the truth. God said He only blots out sins for His own sake. (Isaiah 43:25) Yet, we learn that God has forgiven for Christ's sake. (Ephesians 4:32)

The only conclusion is that Christ is God.

Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

Ephesians 4:32
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Apologetics said:

Just like it was Isaac who was to be be sacrificed and not Abraham. 2 separated individuals separate from each other. One greater than the other.

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Again I tell you; I am not denying that the Father is greater than the Son in His humanity.

What you aren't seeming to get yet is that God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and the Son is flesh and bones. (Luke 24:39) The difference here is between natures. The one is Spirit the other is flesh.

74x12 said:

I don't avoid the word had. In this you clearly misrepresent me. The word had means it belongs to Jesus. You can have something that is not currently in your own hands. If we compared the glory to a robe then Jesus could have "had" the robe in a closest waiting for the right time to be worn.

Now there came a time when Jesus would be given the glory which He already had with the Father from before the foundation of the world.

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You see you did it. You still avoided the meaning of had. HAD means previously experienced Glory not yet to be experienced as in your example.

Your example again demonstrates how you twisted the interpretation to fit your doctrine of oneness

YOUR OWN WORDS "had" the robe in a closest waiting for the right time to be worn.

You see the passage says he had previously worn the robe ( the Glory) not as you say waiting to put it on for the first time.

No NO No . He was merely looking forward to putting the glory back on.

Thats a big difference in interpretations

74x12 said:

hat you aren't seeming to get yet is that God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and the Son is flesh and bones. (Luke 24:39) The difference here is between natures. The one is Spirit the other is flesh.

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See you have now confessed that Jesus did not exist before he was born to Mary. For you just admitted that Jesus is flesh and Bone.!!. Meaning that that was Jesus only and present existence.

So according to you thats the only way Jesus could have existed was to be born of Mary. Prior to that he was not flesh because he was not born of Mary so he did not exist as the Son. You see according to you the Only begotten son only came into existence when he was born of Mary. Prior to that there was no only begotten Son.

Thats Oneness teaching not the Apostles teaching.

The scriptures shred that concept. John 1:30 John 6:38 John 6:62.John 17:5 The same scriptures weve been debating.

And again 1 John 4:9 God sent the only begotten into the world.

All without any doubt demonstrate that Jesus did in fact come down from heaven not from Mary . At the command of the Majesty on High Jesus left the right hand of God to become a man to mediate for sinful man 1 Tim 2:5.

God did not die for the sins of man. His only begotten Son did.

Apologetics said:

Correct Jesus is not an Angel. The Hebrew writer describes Jesus as being Made better than the angels. Heb 1:4 And again he provides the evidence for his claim in Psalm 2:7 Heb 1:5..

The trinity is a man made doctrine. Jesus Has a separate will distinctly different than the Majesty on High. John 6:38.
Jesus is placed in scripture over and over in an subordinate position. Dan 7:16 My doctrine is not my own.

Jesus is always be described has receiving that which he had not previous been in possession of. Heb 1:2 Appointed heir off all things. God already owns all things he is not in need of inheriting anything. But the only created Son is described as a recipient.

Jesus the creator is not the Majesty on High Heb 1:3, Jesus is not never has been nor ever will be God The Majesty on High. Heb 1:3


You say that Jesus and God are one being. Yet the Hebrew writer clearly for all to read portrays Jesus the Creator of all that we can see subordinate and separate from the Majesty on High for he says is at the right hand of the Majesty on high. Which is a place of honor. Just Like in Gen 41:40-45 Joseph was honored by Pharaoh in being appointed ruler over pharaohs house and all of Egypt. 2 separate beings not one.

The history of Joseph as you know being a picture of a future event Jesus being appointed heir of all things by the Majesty on high. Pslm 2:8-9 Heb 1:2 Dan 7:13 ect.

You said
The Father is greater in role than the Son, but they are both equal in essence. The Hebrew right in the first chapter places Jesus above the Angels yet lower than the Majesty on High There is nothing equal about that. The Majesty on high was not made nor created . But the Son is described as being made and created before the world was John 17:5

Thats not true. There was a time when Jesus the Son of God did not exist.He was created Heb 1:4 Rev 3:14 Col 1:15 Gen 1:1 1 John 1:1

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How can Jesus be created when He is creator? How can the Word of God be created? Isn’t God’s Word eternal, just as He is eternal? Is not God’s Word separate from Him, but at the same time Him? As it says in John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. You are right, Jesus is not the Father, yet He is God and has always been with the Father. How can you separate God and His Word? You can’t! The trinity is a term man has come up with, but the bible does talk about the Godhead: and this Godhead, before anything was created, was completely satisfied as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in perfect love; and God has invited man into the equation to experience this communion and union with Him, but only through Jesus Christ the spotless Son of God.

74x12 said:

Show me where I changed my mind.

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Right here

Your have a presupposition that Jesus is God and at the same time say that Jesus the Man did not exist until he was born of Mary

your inconstistance is this.

According to you Jesus is God. That also means God is Jesus. If Jesus is God and God is Jesus, That is God just changed his name to Jesus and transformed himself into a man called Jesus.Then Jesus had to exist before he was born of Mary. But you say that Jesus was a prophetic event foretold to happen at a given time. and did not exist prior to being born of Mary.

You caint have it both ways. But if your following a doctrine of men you can have it both ways. If God is Jesus then God just changed his name to Jesus and his nature to become flesh and blood existing prior to coming to earth. Changing from one dimension of existence to another type of existence but always in existence.

Then you turn right around and say But Jesus did not exist prior to being born of Mary.

Thats inconsistent.


Thats what you believe.

Apologetics said:

Right here

Your have a presupposition that Jesus is God and at the same time say that Jesus the Man did not exist until he was born of Mary

your inconstistance is this.

According to you Jesus is God. That also means God is Jesus. If Jesus is God and God is Jesus, That is God just changed his name to Jesus and transformed himself into a man called Jesus.Then Jesus had to exist before he was born of Mary. But you say that Jesus was a prophetic event foretold to happen at a given time. and did not exist prior to being born of Mary.

You caint have it both ways. But if your following a doctrine of men you can have it both ways. If God is Jesus then God just changed his name to Jesus and his nature to become flesh and blood existing prior to coming to earth. Changing from one dimension of existence to another type of existence but always in existence.

Then you turn right around and say But Jesus did not exist prior to being born of Mary.

Thats inconsistent.


Thats what you believe.

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What I teach is consistent. It's laid out in the scriptures in mysteries. These are not unveiled except God shows you. The fact is God decided before the world was founded that He would become a man and bear the cross; taking our sins. Thus God gives Himself freely for the sake of true love. It's a love story. The Love God has for His bride. It's foreshadowed in Adam and Eve. Adam ate the forbidden fruit knowing it would bring death because he would not be separated from Eve.

The Bride of God is the new Jerusalem. The glory of all God's creation through Jesus Christ. God desired rest and completed all His work on day 7. God rests in His love for us. (Zeph 3:17) This is why He made us. The rest of God is that His love is satisfied.

God also chose to taste death for His bride's sake. He could not die so He made Himself a body. (Hebrews 10:5) Thus He came in the form of a man to do it.

Just as Adam and Eve were "one flesh" because Eve was taken from Adam. So is the bride of Christ one with God being made members of His body through Jesus Christ(who is God incarnate).

As for Jesus not existing. It's not true. He existed as a holy Spirit(God) but His incarnate body existed through predestined Word of God(John 1:1) human birth(Hebrews 10:5) and the resurrection from the dead (Revelation 1:5).

Apologetics said:

Right here

Your have a presupposition that Jesus is God and at the same time say that Jesus the Man did not exist until he was born of Mary

your inconstistance is this.

According to you Jesus is God. That also means God is Jesus. If Jesus is God and God is Jesus, That is God just changed his name to Jesus and transformed himself into a man called Jesus.Then Jesus had to exist before he was born of Mary. But you say that Jesus was a prophetic event foretold to happen at a given time. and did not exist prior to being born of Mary.

You caint have it both ways. But if your following a doctrine of men you can have it both ways. If God is Jesus then God just changed his name to Jesus and his nature to become flesh and blood existing prior to coming to earth. Changing from one dimension of existence to another type of existence but always in existence.

Then you turn right around and say But Jesus did not exist prior to being born of Mary.

Thats inconsistent.


Thats what you believe.

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You're teaching a kind of Arianism. Paul warned us in Col. 2:8-9 that we should beware lest we're spoiled by the doctrine of men through philosophy and vain deceit after tradition of men rather than the Word of God. The fullness of the Divine nature dwells in Jesus bodily.

Revelation 1:8 Jesus says He is the Almighty
Revelation 1:17-18 Jesus is the First and the Last.
Isaiah 48:12 Jehovah is the First and the Last.

There are not two first and lasts. Only one.

I only worship one God like the Bible says to do. There aren't two Gods for the church.

74x12 said:

What I teach is consistent. It's laid out in the scriptures in mysteries. These are not unveiled except God shows you. The fact is God decided before the world was founded that He would become a man and bear the cross; taking our sins. Thus God gives Himself freely for the sake of true love. It's a love story. The Love God has for His bride. It's foreshadowed in Adam and Eve. Adam ate the forbidden fruit knowing it would bring death because he would not be separated from Eve.

The Bride of God is the new Jerusalem. The glory of all God's creation through Jesus Christ. God desired rest and completed all His work on day 7. God rests in His love for us. (Zeph 3:17) This is why He made us. The rest of God is that His love is satisfied.

God also chose to taste death for His bride's sake. He could not die so He made Himself a body. (Hebrews 10:5) Thus He came in the form of a man to do it.

Just as Adam and Eve were "one flesh" because Eve was taken from Adam. So is the bride of Christ one with God being made members of His body through Jesus Christ(who is God incarnate).

As for Jesus not existing. It's not true. He existed as a holy Spirit(God) but His incarnate body existed through predestined Word of God(John 1:1) human birth(Hebrews 10:5) and the resurrection from the dead (Revelation 1:5).

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You are blind !!!!

RabbiO said:

I tried explaining this to you once and it didn't take. So let's try this yet again.

Jewish scripture - what you would call the Old Testament - was not written in English. Daniel, in particular, was written in Hebrew and Aramaic.

THERE ARE NO CAPITAL LETTERS IN HEBREW OR ARAMAIC. NONE.

Do you understand that?

With the exception of place names and personal names, capitalization of words in translations into languages with capital letters represent editorial decisions made by translators who bring their own views, assumptions, biases if you will, to the task of translation.

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Yes I understand that, But what we Christians calls the old testament scriptures, were written in Hebrew and
Aramaic.
But back at that time people didn't use Capital letters or Comas or Periods.

But for us to day thru much learning and the increase of knowledge, we use Capitals and Comas and Periods.
Which makes it alot easier to understand when someone of importance is being talk about or a place.

So Capital letters were added much later, and Comas and Periods.
So that people would have a better understanding what is being said.

How many people would actually understand any of the Scriptures, if there were no Capitals or Comas or Periods.

How would people know where one sentance stop and other sentance started if there were no Periods.

How would people know the importance of someone if there were no Capitals, to indicate the importance of a person.

How would people know the break in a sentence if there were no Comas in the sentence.

I've done an intense study on this, and do know when a sentence would end and the beginning of another sentance.
As Comas and Periods

It's not hard to know these things, if a person knows and understand, How people of long ago did these things.

Lets take for instance Periods.

People of long ago, would stop and the drop down two or three lines to indicate the end of one sentence and the beginning of a new sentence.

As for Comas
You see people of long ago would leave a space between words, to indicate a Comma.

There are still many places in the old scriptures and new scriptures, that are still this way, But people have no idea why there are empty spaces between words in a sentence.

74x12 said:

Jesus had to be born again by the holy Spirit. This fulfilled His victory over the flesh. The flesh was what was born of Mary. It was nailed to a cross so He put it to death. But when the holy Spirit breathed on Him causing the resurrection. Then He was born again. This time of the Spirit of God; so that He may live forever. We surely cannot live forever with just breathing oxygen you know?Our lungs cannot last forever. They'll give out eventually because they're only flesh. The Breath that God will gives us though is eternal breath if we believe and are partakers of the Resurrection that is in the body of Jesus Christ.

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Again I believe there is no Biblical evidence to support this theory and repeating it doesn't make it true.

I do not believe so because Jesus is still in the flesh so the victory continues.

I believe there is enough evidence to support that the Spirit was with the flesh when Jesus was born.

I can't imagine where you come up with this stuff. The body dies because there was no Spirit within to help sustain life.

There is no Biblical evidence for this but it stands to reason that the Spirit resurrected the body and re-incarnated it.

I believe I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

I believe you should be aware that flesh that can last forever is what eternal life is all about.

Faithofchristian said:

Well seeing that Michael the Arch Angel is a created being and Jesus is not a created being,
So what do you think ?

If had notice that in Daniel the Prophet 12:1, states ( Michael the great prince )

Now notice ( prince ) is a lower case ( p )

As for the ( Prince ) has a higher case
( P ) signifying someone of a more higher position than the lower case ( p ) ( P )

Therefore Michael the Arch Angel has a lower case ( p ) than when speaking about the Lord Prince ( P ) a capital.

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I believe that is not Biblical or logical. Jesus is not Spirit but is Spirit and flesh. The Spirit has always existed but the flesh had to be created since Mary was a virgin and could not have produced a child from an egg without some kind of creation taking place. However the angel did not announce that an angel would be born to Mary.