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Richard Dawkins interviews a Muslim guy

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
Agreed. Are you not familiar with the many actions done in the name of religion that violate the rights of others?

If the actions of a person violate the rights of another then they should be punished regardless of their motivation. If someone discriminates against minorities because of their Christian beliefs we don't disallow the immigration of Christians, deport Christians, or outlaw Christianity, do we?
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
If a person chooses to be a part of that religion then they are choosing to be under that law.



There are billions of muslims across the globe, and they are not killing non-muslims as part of a jihad. What you are talking about are actions, not religion.

Not true at all. Sharia Law is forced upon millions of unwilling children and women every day who just happen to be born into a religion that treats them horribly. Also, Muslims literally execute apostates in many Islamic nations, so once you are in the religion of Islam, there is no freedom to leave. This is an inexcusable violation of human rights and it is evil. Also, if you think Islamic terrorists' actions are not motivated by their religion, you are certainly wrong. All of them claim to commit these atrocities in the name of their god, so they certainly are a component of their religion.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
If the actions of a person violate the rights of another then they should be punished regardless of their motivation. If someone discriminates against minorities because of their Christian beliefs we don't disallow the immigration of Christians, deport Christians, or outlaw Christianity, do we?

Christians don't execute apostates. Christians don't strap themselves to suicide bombers and commit violent acts of terrorism. Christianity at its worst is Pat Robertson ranting about anal sex. Islam at its worst leads to loss of millions of innocent lives.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Certainly not to be commended, but that's a very hyperbolic take - believe me, there is plenty of criticism of Islam taking place within the UK. You're taking a couple incidents in one particular area and characterising the entire British government by it. As for leftism, the governing party is literally called the Conservative Party.

Definitely, the British government has been a major contributor to Islamic extremism, via its military foreign policy, in which it follows the US party line.

I don't think it's a hyperbolic take. If people are banned from entering a country because of their opinions about Islam, then obviously that country's government has a problem with free speech. There's a reason that freedom of speech is found in the first Amendment to the American constitution. It's one of the most important, if not *the* most important aspect of a free society.
 

Enlil

Allah's servant
Islam at its worst leads to loss of millions of innocent lives.

Islam at its worst does indeed have a significant impact on many people (mostly Muslims). But far from all manifestations of Islam as interpreted and practiced by (many) other Muslims have these kinds of negative impacts.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
That example can be matched with fundamentalists from Christianity, from Judaism, from Hinduism, from Buddhism, from Shintoism, and so on. That implacable, murderous, self-entitled mindset crops up everywhere.

Incorrect. Not all religions are created equal. There is a major difference between fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Islam, for example. Fundamentalist Christians are vocal in their oppositions to gay marriage, abortion, etc. However, they very rarely act violently (I recognize there are exceptions to this, but in general, the vast majority of Christian fundamentalists are not violent).

In contrast to this, Islamic fundamentalists murder people who de-convert from their religion. They also want to impose their religious system of law onto the entire world via violence.

I recognize that not all Muslims are fundamentalist Muslims. My point is that fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Islam are two very different animals.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
Not true at all. Sharia Law is forced upon millions of unwilling children and women every day who just happen to be born into a religion that treats them horribly.

Those are the actions of a government, not a religion. In the country you are living in there are probably muslims. Are you being forced to live under Sharia Law? Are muslims executing those who refuse to join their religion in your country?
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
Incorrect. Not all religions are created equal. There is a major difference between fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Islam, for example. Fundamentalist Christians are vocal in their oppositions to gay marriage, abortion, etc. However, they very rarely act violently (I recognize there are exceptions to this, but in general, the vast majority of Christian fundamentalists are not violent).

And yet those Christian fundamentalists want to use the power of law to force non-Christians to live by their rules, do they not?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Not true at all. Sharia Law is forced upon millions of unwilling children and women every day who just happen to be born into a religion that treats them horribly. Also, Muslims literally execute apostates in many Islamic nations, so once you are in the religion of Islam, there is no freedom to leave. This is an inexcusable violation of human rights and it is evil. Also, if you think Islamic terrorists' actions are not motivated by their religion, you are certainly wrong. All of them claim to commit these atrocities in the name of their god, so they certainly are a component of their religion.

Let's say there is no freedom to leave in Muslim countries. The won't get away with that crap elsewhere around the world.

And what happens to Islam when the internet, which is unavoidable these days, invades their households and exposes their children to reality?

There may be a lot of cultural Muslims twenty to thirty years down the line, but I am betting that the number of zealots drops precipitously.
 

Enlil

Allah's servant
Incorrect. Not all religions are created equal. There is a major difference between fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Islam, for example. Fundamentalist Christians are vocal in their oppositions to gay marriage, abortion, etc. However, they very rarely act violently (I recognize there are exceptions to this, but in general, the vast majority of Christian fundamentalists are not violent).

In contrast to this, Islamic fundamentalists murder people who de-convert from their religion. They also want to impose their religious system of law onto the entire world via violence.

I recognize that not all Muslims are fundamentalist Muslims. My point is that fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Islam are two very different animals.

Perhaps you should make clearer in your posts that it is fundamentalist Islam and the actions of fundamentalist Muslims that you have a (justified) problem with.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
Christians don't execute apostates.

. . . anymore. Finished the sentence for you.

Christians don't strap themselves to suicide bombers and commit violent acts of terrorism. Christianity at its worst is Pat Robertson ranting about anal sex. Islam at its worst leads to loss of millions of innocent lives.

And yet there are millions of muslims who are living peacefully in western democracies right now.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Those are the actions of a government, not a religion. In the country you are living in there are probably muslims. Are you being forced to live under Sharia Law? Are muslims executing those who refuse to join their religion in your country?

They are the actions of religious governments, a.k.a. theocracies that are founded on Islam. So, they are still the actions of a religion. And, no, these things are not taking place in my country, but Muslims are 1% of the US population. If Muslims were the majority, these things would almost certainly be taking place, because they take place in nearly every Muslim-majority country in the world.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Perhaps you should make clearer in your posts that it is fundamentalist Islam and the actions of fundamentalist Muslims that you have a (justified) problem with.

I think I made it fairly clear. I've said repeatedly that there are many good Muslims in the world.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
They are the actions of religious governments, a.k.a. theocracies that are founded on Islam. So, they are still the actions of a religion. And, no, these things are not taking place in my country, but Muslims are 1% of the US population. If Muslims were the majority, these things would almost certainly be taking place, because they take place in nearly every Muslim-majority country in the world.
The beliefs of all Muslims is not monolithic even in Muslim majority countries. Treating all the members of a group based on the actions of a few will not fix the problems.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
Oddly, I had not realized that Liberals were now the "far left" as indicated in the OP.

It's all relative. The right in the US has been steadily moving to the extreme end of the spectrum since the Reagan administration so the distance has increased between them. LIberals in the US would probably be considered centrists or even conservatives in other countries.
 

Enlil

Allah's servant
They are the actions of religious governments, a.k.a. theocracies that are founded on Islam. So, they are still the actions of a religion. And, no, these things are not taking place in my country, but Muslims are 1% of the US population. If Muslims were the majority, these things would almost certainly be taking place, because they take place in nearly every Muslim-majority country in the world.

Very few of these governments have adopted Sharia law in its entirety, though. Indeed, many fundamentalist Muslims attack their governments for their corruption and for not being (truly) religious.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
The beliefs of all Muslims is not monolithic even in Muslim majority countries. Treating all the members of a group based on the actions of a few will not fix the problems.

I agree there are differences in the beliefs of Muslims, and many of them are good, peace-loving people. However the fact remains that nearly all Muslim-majority countries are also nations with some of the largest abuses of the rights of women and minorities.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I agree there are differences in the beliefs of Muslims, and many of them are good, peace-loving people. However the fact remains that nearly all Muslim-majority countries are also nations with some of the largest abuses of the rights of women and minorities.
No question there. Though there is hope of reform. Along with advances in quality of living is usually an increase in education. And education is the foe of extremists.
 
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