Richard Dawkins interviews a Muslim guy

icehorse said:

I suspect that a lot of people who believe in multiculturalism also believe that all cultures share a core set of values. That's simply not the case. There are core ideas in Islam that support values that are in opposition to Western secular values. I think it's very safe to say that - in comparison to Western values - Islam is homophobic, it is not tolerant of sexual diversity. Islam is misogynistic, e.g. a woman's testimony is worth half of a man's. Islam is anti-semitic.

These are values. They are different than Western values. We don't have to be judgmental to notice the differences. So the question is whether we want to create a society in which such disparate value systems attempt to co-exist. Seems like a bad idea to me, but that's just me.

Edit addition: And of course let's not forget that in many parts of the world "Islamic religious freedom" includes the idea that apostasy is a crime, often a capital crime. So the folks you're defending often don't allow their own members any religious freedom.

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Aren't these very same values Christian values too?

icehorse said:

I often criticize other religions. I don't think I'm being hypocritical if I don't always criticize them all collectively, every time I have a criticism. Correct?

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Yes, but the point here is that conservative Christians have always lived in the Western countries. If countries with Western values can exist with Christians having these values, why can't they exist with Muslims having these values as well?

Not to mention the liberal strains in both religions.

It's a common phenomenon that many people who especially oppose Christianity and Islam are supportive only of their respective fundamentalist interpretations!

That's from the God Delusion documentary from 2006.

Hubert Farnsworth said:

Watch the man in this interview spew out misogyny and condone violence in an aggressive, condescending, and unapologetic tone. We should absolutely not be "tolerant" of this kind of blatant intolerance, misogyny, and hatred that Islam breeds. I recognize that there are good Muslims in the world who do not behave like this. My reason for singling out Islam in many of my posts is not because I despise all Muslims (I don't despise all Muslims), or want to be a rabble-rouser. I am genuinely concerned about the negative influence that Islam has in the world, and unfortunately, many people (particularly those on the far left) fail to understand just how serious a problem that Islamist ideology is, and how much it threatens the way of life of peaceful, free, western societies.

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maybe stop conflating ALL muslims with this type of muslim, perhaps? I mean, just if you want your "I don't despise all Muslims" claim to seem slightly credible?

icehorse said:

I suspect that a lot of people who believe in multiculturalism also believe that all cultures share a core set of values. That's simply not the case. There are core ideas in Islam that support values that are in opposition to Western secular values. I think it's very safe to say that - in comparison to Western values - Islam is homophobic, it is not tolerant of sexual diversity. Islam is misogynistic, e.g. a woman's testimony is worth half of a man's. Islam is anti-semitic.

These are values. They are different than Western values. We don't have to be judgmental to notice the differences. So the question is whether we want to create a society in which such disparate value systems attempt to co-exist. Seems like a bad idea to me, but that's just me.

Edit addition: And of course let's not forget that in many parts of the world "Islamic religious freedom" includes the idea that apostasy is a crime, often a capital crime. So the folks you're defending often don't allow their own members any religious freedom.

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Always bemuses me seeing judgemental Christians and Westerners trashing "Islamic Values" like this, since they were pretty much universally Western values too as recently as a generation or two back. Indeed, a great many Westerners and Christians' main complaint about these "Islamic Values" seems to lie in the fact that they can't express them any more and the envy gets them all worked up.

Not pointing any fingers, but on more than one occasion I've seen posters here and elsewhere condemn Islam for homophobia, antisemitism and misogyny , only to appear two threads over making thoroughly homophobic, antisemitic and misogynistic comments of their own. Much like the people who call Islam blood thirsty and violent, and point to the Islamic conquest of the Middle East as evidence, who will then handwave any mention of just how Christianity became the dominant religion in the Americas.

I'm not a Muslim. Frankly, I think it's a silly religion. I've read their holy book and some associated philosophy and never found it very convincing. There's certainly plenty in Islamic history to condemn, don't get me wrong. My point, my sole point here, as so often, is to call out hypocrisy.

sayak83 said:

Aren't these very same values Christian values too?

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I'd agree that there are some common areas. But compared to Islam, relatively few Christians these days claim and act as though the Bible is perfect and unalterable.

sayak83 said:

Yes, but the point here is that conservative Christians have always lived in the Western countries. If countries with Western values can exist with Christians having these values, why can't they exist with Muslims having these values as well?

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I don't think Islamic values and conservative Christian values are the same. Do you?

Armoured said:

My point, my sole point here, as so often, is to call out hypocrisy.

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If you see specific examples of hypocrisy, point them out.

icehorse said:

Sorry for the confusion. In general countries allow only the immigrants they want to, Muslim or otherwise. But the context of my post is that we're discussing Islam and more specifically the questions of tolerance and religious freedoms came up. My point was that - as an example - I see no reason why we should let people immigrate whose core values conflict with ours. I believe this is true for most cases of conflicting values, not just Islamic ones.

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Fair enough, but since we're discussing Islam first and foremost it surely makes sense to also consider non-immigrant Muslims. Would you deport them for holding values inconsistent with certain 'Western' values?

Al Ibn Al Amra said:

You cannot rebel against Aallah SWT .

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Iblis did though.

Enlil said:

Fair enough, but since we're discussing Islam first and foremost it surely makes sense to also consider non-immigrant Muslims. Would you deport them for holding values inconsistent with certain 'Western' values?

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Well first, let's not conflate immigration with deportation. Second, I would say that we should not let people immigrate, whose core values undermine our core values, regardless of what faith they adhere to.

icehorse said:

I'd agree that there are some common areas. But compared to Islam, relatively few Christians these days claim and act as though the Bible is perfect and unalterable.

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These days. That will change, as it has done for Christianity.

icehorse said:

Well first, let's not conflate immigration with deportation. Second, I would say that we should not let people immigrate, whose core values undermine our core values, regardless of what faith they adhere to.

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So you agree that we should not deport Muslims from non-Muslim countries they reside in even if they hold values inconsistent with our values?

Enlil said:

So you agree that we should not deport Muslims from non-Muslim countries they reside in even if they hold values inconsistent with our values?

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It's not that black and white. In general, I'd say it should be harder to deport someone than it is to deny immigration in the first place.

Enlil said:

These days. That will change, as it has done for Christianity.

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I'm concerned that we don't have time for that - probably slow - evolution. There are too many people with too powerful weapons to think that we'll have time for a slow evolution of belief.

icehorse said:

It's not that black and white. In general, I'd say it should be harder to deport someone than it is to deny immigration in the first place.

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Why should it be, and what is the litmus test?

icehorse said:

I'm concerned that we don't have time for that - probably slow - evolution. There are too many people with too powerful weapons to think that we'll have time for a slow evolution of belief.

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Call me optimistic, but I think we do a decent job of staying ahead and keeping them in check.

Enlil said:

Why should it be, and what is the litmus test?

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We're quickly headed towards the philosophy forum

My opinion seems moral and ethical. Deporting a person disrupts a person's current life. Dis-allowing a person to immigrate disrupts only a plan. Now, I don't think we should be arbitrary in our immigration decisions. I think we should be transparent. This should minimize false expectations.