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the trinity

exchemist

Veteran Member
Jesus did say that we will know them by their fruits (or actions), so I think there are times when judgement is proper. For example a man that claims to be a "Christian", yet continually abuses his wife behind closed doors. Or a long time pastor who has been putting on a show as such a man of God, but come to find out he is a pedophile who has molested dozens of children. These actions prove that these kind of people, while claiming to be "Christians" are in reality NOT. God is the ultimate Judge when it comes to eternity and only He knows a person's heart and motives. I am glad to leave that position to Him, but we are called to use discernment and wisdom.
That seems eminently sensible to me. But the implication of that is that, when you describe the conditions for someone to be "saved", you don't really mean it literally. You mean something more like being on the road to salvation, perhaps?

And what about those who are not saved? Are they damned?
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
I am very happy to hear you say that about Newton.

Your clarification sheds a new light on the quote you gave us in post 9, which said: "This would mean that anyone who claims to be a Christian, but openly and continually rejects the doctrine of the Trinity, is probably not truly saved." It seems to put more importance on "truly", whatever that means. (No true Scotsman?)

It seems to me presumptuous to claim that we know who is "saved" and suggest who probably is not, especially as the implication seems to be that those who are not "saved" are damned. Or is there a way of finessing that unpalatable implication?
1Ti 5:24
The sins of some are obvious, reaching the place of judgment ahead of them; the sins of others trail behind them.

1Ti 5:25
In the same way, good deeds are obvious, and even those that are not obvious cannot remain hidden forever.

There are three categories of person on earth, saved, unsaved and unknown.

Of course we can be sure who is saved where their good deeds are obvious. Of course we can be sure who is not saved, where their evil deeds are obvious. But I suppose many fall into the unknown category, but unknown is not a good category to be in, because if your good deeds are not obvious, you may be in the foolish virgin category (light has gone out).
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
1Ti 5:24
The sins of some are obvious, reaching the place of judgment ahead of them; the sins of others trail behind them.

1Ti 5:25
In the same way, good deeds are obvious, and even those that are not obvious cannot remain hidden forever.

There are three categories of person on earth, saved, unsaved and unknown.

Of course we can be sure who is saved where their good deeds are obvious. Of course we can be sure who is not saved, where their evil deeds are obvious. But I suppose many fall into the unknown category, but unknown is not a good category to be in, because if your good deeds are not obvious, you may be in the foolish virgin category (light has gone out).
I do not think we can be at all sure who is not saved. Do we presume to know the extent of God's mercy?
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Of course we can be sure who is saved where their good deeds are obvious. Of course we can be sure who is not saved, where their evil deeds are obvious. But I suppose many fall into the unknown category, but unknown is not a good category to be in, because if your good deeds are not obvious, you may be in the foolish virgin category (light has gone out).
What of the people who we might think are obviously doing good deeds, but are hiding "evil deeds"?
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
What of the people who we might think are obviously doing good deeds, but are hiding "evil deeds"?
John 7:24, "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

Appearances can be deceptive, I'll agree. The thing is not to be fooled by them.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
God's mercy is reserved for this life not the day of judgement
Matthew 18:21-35, James 2:13
Well the James verse says that he that shows no mercy can expect none in return.
My bible says: "Whoever acts without mercy will be judged without mercy"

As for Matthew, that is the parable of the unforgiving debtor and is, again, about retribution for someone who shows no mercy himself.

Neither of these says that God will show no mercy at the at the Last Judgement, just that a merciless person cannot expect it.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
Well the James verse says that he that shows no mercy can expect none in return.
My bible says: "Whoever acts without mercy will be judged without mercy"

As for Matthew, that is the parable of the unforgiving debtor and is, again, about retribution for someone who shows no mercy himself.

Neither of these says that God will show no mercy at the at the Last Judgement, just that a merciless person cannot expect it.
What I am saying is that the unqualified mercy that comes through Christ's sacrifice will not be repeated. One cannot claim Christ's sacrifice on judgement day to atone for one's lack of good works. So many have misconstrued it, it needs to be pointed out.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
What I am saying is that the unqualified mercy that comes through Christ's sacrifice will not be repeated. One cannot claim Christ's sacrifice on judgement day to atone for one's lack of good works. So many have misconstrued it, it needs to be pointed out.
OK but that is pointing out a lack of automatic entitlement.

It says nothing about clemency, freely given, as an act of love.

I don't want to labour this, but what I resist is any notion that we men can presume to know the extent of God's love and forgiveness.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
OK but that is pointing out a lack of automatic entitlement.

It says nothing about clemency, freely given, as an act of love.

I don't want to labour this, but what I resist is any notion that we men can presume to know the extent of God's love and forgiveness.
I don't agree. That is like saying, it is impossible for man to know what treasure he has in heaven, or what oil he has left in his lamp. Everyone knows whether they have treasure in heaven. If they cannot know it, how come Christ called the foolish virgins "foolish"?
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I don't agree. That is like saying, it is impossible for man to know what treasure he has in heaven, or what oil he has left in his lamp. Everyone knows whether they have treasure in heaven. If they cannot know it, how come Christ called the foolish virgins "foolish"?
And so it is. Neither you nor I knows what "treasure" we have in heaven, whatever you mean by that.

The parable of the virgins is about being properly prepared, not about foreknowledge of God's mercy.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
All Christian denominations define the Trinity as the triune Godhead; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, One God, three Persons all equally God in eternal essence and nature.



All true regenerated Christian believers believe in the Trinity.

'It is not believing in the Trinity that makes us Christian. Rather, it is being a Christian (and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit) that enables us to believe in the Trinity. So, in one sense it's not a requirement to affirm the doctrines the Trinity in order to become saved. However, the true Christian will not deny the doctrine of the Trinity because the Holy Spirit will bear witness of truth (John 15:26) in the Trinity as true. This would mean that anyone who claims to be a Christian, but openly and continually rejects the doctrine of the Trinity, is probably not truly saved."
https://carm.org/do-you-have-to-believe-the-trinity-to-be-christian

I strongly disagree. The Trinity is a false doctrine, which was never taught by the apostles. By the way, John 15:26 does not say the Holy Spirit will bear witness that the Trinity is true.

I am one of the ones that openly and continually reject the doctrine of the Trinity.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I strongly disagree. The Trinity is a false doctrine, which was never taught by the apostles. By the way, John 15:26 does not say the Holy Spirit will bear witness that the Trinity is true.

I am one of the ones that openly and continually reject the doctrine of the Trinity.
Question: What do you believe is Jesus' connection to God? Is he just a human? Is he actually God?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
All Christian denominations define the Trinity as the triune Godhead; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, One God, three Persons all equally God in eternal essence and nature.

Not all denominations of Christianity, unless you are limiting Christianity to the denominations that do believe in the Trinity.

The Unity Church, and the Jehovah Witnesses do not believe in the Trinity to name two.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Not all denominations of Christianity, unless you are limiting Christianity to the denominations that do believe in the Trinity.

The Unity Church, and the Jehovah Witnesses do not believe in the Trinity to name two.
Do I feel a "No True Scotsman" argument coming on...? :D
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Do I feel a "No True Scotsman" argument coming on...? :D

Not from my perspective. There is no criteria at present for either the true Scotsman nor the true Christian from the fallible human perspective.

Though there is probably more uniformity and conformity among Scotsmen than Christians.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Question: What do you believe is Jesus' connection to God? Is he just a human? Is he actually God?

There is only 1 God.

John 4:24 says that the 1 God is a Spirit (Note it says a Spirit not 3 persons)

Ephesians 4:4 lets us know there is only 1 Spirit

In 1 Corinthians 8:6 Paul said that to us there is but 1 God - the Father

God is a Spirit and he is holy. He said in the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh. Joel 2:

So the Holy Spirit is not another person - it is one and the same Spirit. Who was the Father in Matthew 1:18-20? She was found with child of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Father, not another person of the Godhead.

YHWH, The God of the old testament was a Spirit and didn't have blood to shed for man's sin. He looked out across the expanse of time, and saw that there would be no one without sin, to be that perfect sacrifice. He said My arm is not shortened, I will do it myself. He overshadowed the virgin Mary, and made himself a body. He was the Father of that body, so he could call it his son. But he dwelt in that body, and he sacrificed the fleshly body for the sins of the world. It wasn't another person, it was God himself dwelling in a fleshly body. The scripture says God was manifest in the flesh - he appeared in a body.

To wit or to know that God was in the Messiah reconciling the world to himself. 2 Corinthians 5:19

That's why the Messiah said things like, I and my Father are one. If you have seen me you have seen the Father. The Father that dwelleth in me he does the works. John 14:7-10 Now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

It wasn't that fleshly body doing the miracles, it was the eternal Spirit dwelling in the body that worked the miracles. It wasn't that fleshly body that was before Abraham, it was the Spirit dwelling in the body.

He was both Father and Son, the flesh was the son, and the eternal Spirit dwelling in the flesh was the Father, just like the prophecy in Isaiah 9:6 had said - Unto us a Son is given - He shall be called the Mighty God, and the everlasting Father.

There is a lot more proof,
but I will leave it at this for now. Hope this helps. If you have questions, please ask.
 
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