Christian - Baptism

Baerly · Aug 31, 2006

We always have some kind of relationship with God. Sometimes, it's just not a very good one!

Baerly said- Simon Was about to lose his soul in (Acts 8:22). If he had not repented and prayed for forgivness like Peter told him to he would have lost his soul. Is this what you mean by not so good.

We become Christians when we heed Christ's call to follow him.

Baerly said- We cannot be a christian till our sins are washed away (Isaiah 59:1,2).God can have no part with sin. The word of God says sins are washed away at baptism,I believe it(Acts 22:16). Not only that but the word of God also says Baptism saves (1Peter 3:21). Wouldn't one be lost before he can be saved? So according to
(1Peter 3:21) even this verse gives credence to (Acts 22:16).

That's too literalistic an interpretation for me. Jesus forgave the sins of many, for many reasons. He forgave the sins of the paralytic. He forgave the sins of the woman with the hemorrhage. He forgave the sins of the prostitute. He forgave the sins of the blind man. He forgave the sins of the thief on the cross. None of these folks were baptized. To place the point of forgiveness on baptism is to do two things: 1) It places the efficacy of grace sqaurely upon our action, 2) It makes baptism into a magic act instead of a sacrament.

Baerly Said- My friend, every instance you just brought up was during the O.T. - No one was commanded to be baptized for the remission of sin to receive the Holy Spirit under the O.T. -As long as Jesus was living he could forgive sins any way he wished.The moment he died his N.T. LAW went into affect (Heb.9:15-17). Everyone from then on had to be baptized to have their sins washed away, literally (Acts 22:16 ; 2:38). Also wouldn't you say that Naaman literally was cleansed of Leprosy in
(2Kings 5). That happened to help us understand water baptism in the N.T. (Rom. 15:4).
In answere to your 1.You got it right. God blesses those who are obedient to him with his grace. Isn't that exactly what (Heb.5:9) says. He became the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey him. How about (Acts 10:34,35),He that feareth him and worketh righteousness,is accepted with him. A far as you 2. I would say Baptism saves according to the word of God (1Peter 3:21). ANd I am your friend for telling you that (Gal.4:16). Really now, how hard could it be to be baptized?
If God told me to eat dirt to have my sins wahsed away I would start eating dirt.

I would respectfully caution you not to make a determination of the condition of another's heart -- especially one whom you don't know. I could just as easily turn "the good soil" and "ask, seek, knock" back upon you for not seeing things "my way."

Baerly said- My friend,I do not want to upset you.That would accomplish nothing and would be sin on my part.But if I show someone the word of God, out of true love for my friends soul,there can be nothing wrong with that.Now,as far as me making a judgment upon someone I do not know, I just got through reading where you rejected baptism.You said it,that is how I knew how you felt about baptism.So I do know you enough to see that you and Naaman had alot in common in (2Kings 5). If I am wrong I will be willing to apologize.I do not wish to make enemies,that is easily done in our day and time. If I did not care about your soul I would read what you said laugh and move on without saying a word. But that is not what I done.I will take the time and see if you will accept the word of God, all the while reasoning over the scriptures.I do not care about winning a debate,I care about winning your soul to Christ alone. For we know when we oppose the scriptures we actually oppose our Lord (John 12:48). If I understand the bible,no one can go to heaven opposing the word of God.

I applaud you for your developing faith and spiritual walk, but please don't pick up pebbles on your way and throw them at others, just because they're not walking exactly the same path, or wearing the same hiking boots as you. Instead,I invite you to "walk in love as Christ has loved us, and gave himself for us, an offering and sacrifice to God."

Baerly said- My friend,May I suggest that I am walking in the love of Christ and youhave not recognized it. Jesus said to go to all the world and teach them to observe all the things whatsoever he commanded(Matt. 28:18-20). That is what I am doing. If I am incorrect according to the N.T. please show me and I will repent. I am not teaching my words,but those of Jesus. If you get upset that is ok,infact it is a good thing.Those on the day of Pentecost got hurt (pricked in hearts)and then they asked what must they do to be saved? You know what Peter told them? To repent and Be Baptized for the remission of your sins (Acts 2:38).That harmonizes with
(Acts 22:16). Please look at the scriptures and check it out.

Baerly said- Thank You, for the compliments. Please think about this,aren't you making a judgment upon me too? Just a thought. Rather than talking about animals,I had rather you take the New testament and show me I am wrong.--in love Baerly

Again, myopia is a debilitating disorder. Thanks for the condemnation and judgment, but I'm returning it. It doesn't fit. It's like trying to put pantyhose on an ostrich.[/quote]

Super Universe · Aug 31, 2006

sojourner said:
No, because we are baptized into relationship. When one is baptized, one is baptized into the body of Christ (the Church -- not denomination, or congregation, or organization, but the whole body of the faithful). Our faith can be private, but it can never be individual, for our faith entails that we be in relationship (love) with one another. Therefore, baptism cannot be an individual act. It is the act, rather of all those who choose to be in right relationship (the Church). therefore, baptism needs to be an act of the people, not of an individual.

So, in your view, we do not become baptized to build a relationship with God but to build a relationship with fellow church members. A rite of passage in order to be welcomed by a group.

sojourner · Aug 31, 2006

Simon Was about to lose his soul in (Acts 8:22). If he had not repented and prayed for forgivness like Peter told him to he would have lost his soul. Is this what you mean by not so good.

No. I mean that we always have a relationship with God. Sometimes that relationship is one of self-serving and disobedience. Sometimes it is one of self-sacrifice and love.

We cannot be a christian till our sins are washed away (Isaiah 59:1,2).

Christ called the Twelve to be followers without them having been baptized. he asked only that they follow.

The word of God says sins are washed away at baptism,I believe it(Acts 22:16). Not only that but the word of God also says Baptism saves

I don't have a problem with this. But, don't you think it's the Christ event itself, and not our baptismal response to that grace that makes us righteous before God? (John 10:10)

every instance you just brought up was during the O.T.

Woman with the hemorrhage -- Mark 5:25; The prostitute -- John 8:11; Man born blind -- John 9:2,3; Thief -- Luke 23-43. All New Testament.

As long as Jesus was living he could forgive sins any way he wished.The moment he died his N.T. LAW went into affect (Heb.9:15-17). Everyone from then on had to be baptized to have their sins washed away, literally (Acts 22:16 ; 2:38).

I thought Jesus was still living. Is he now dead? "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy..." (Exodus 33:19). Since Jesus grants God's forgiveness; since Jesus still lives, forgiveness is always ours. I don't see where forgiveness of sin hinges upon our act of baptism in either of the Acts passages.

In answere to your 1.You got it right. God blesses those who are obedient to him with his grace. Isn't that exactly what (Heb.5:9) says. He became the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey him. How about (Acts 10:34,35),He that feareth him and worketh righteousness,is accepted with him

God blesses all of us with grace -- period. "Your Father is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost." Matt. 18:14; "All humanity will see God's salvation." Lk. 3:6; "The Son of Man came to seek and save what was lost." Lk. 19:10; "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the 99 in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?" Lk. 15:14; "The true light that gives light to eveyone was coming into the world." Jn. 1:9; "God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." Jn. 3:17; "When I am lifted up, I will draw all humanity to myself." Jn. 12:32; "You did not choose me, but I chose you." Jn. 15:16; "Christ must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago..." Acts 3:21; "I am convinced that neither death nor life...nor anything in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom. 8:38-39.

But if I show someone the word of God, out of true love for my friends soul,there can be nothing wrong with that.

I'm well aware of the word of God. There is something wrong with your intimating that, because I don't interpret it your way, I have rejected it.

I just got through reading where you rejected baptism.

Where in the world did I ever say that I reject baptism?!?

If I did not care about your soul I would read what you said laugh and move on without saying a word. But that is not what I done.I will take the time and see if you will accept the word of God, all the while reasoning over the scriptures.I do not care about winning a debate,I care about winning your soul to Christ alone. For we know when we oppose the scriptures we actually oppose our Lord (John 12:48). If I understand the bible,no one can go to heaven opposing the word of God.

Thank you for caring for my soul. I have accepted the word of God. Take care that you do not confuse acceptance with interpretation! My soul has already been won to Christ. Christ himself won my soul, and he did it by his incarnation. It would not be possible for a human being to win another's soul. I do not stand in opposition to the word of God. You are gravely mistaken here. If I understand the Bible, God will save everyone.

Jesus said to go to all the world and teach them to observe all the things whatsoever he commanded(Matt. 28:18-20). That is what I am doing. If I am incorrect according to the N.T. please show me and I will repent.

Jesus also said that he came, not to save the healthy, but the sick. you need to be sure that you're not doctoring those who don't need a doctor. Much harm has been caused by overprescribing medication. I'm not going to correct your sincerely-held beliefs. I would appreciate the same respect for my own. Disagreement does not indicate error.

I am not teaching my words,but those of Jesus.

You are teaching your interpretation of what you believe to be the words of Jesus.

If you get upset that is ok,infact it is a good thing.

If you think you're practicing "tough love," you need to revisit your actions. I'm telling you to back off the judgment of my faith. You really need to respect that -- regardless of how you feel about the condition of my soul.

aren't you making a judgment upon me too?

I assume you mean:

myopia is a debilitating disorder. Thanks for the condemnation and judgment, but I'm returning it. It doesn't fit. It's like trying to put pantyhose on an ostrich.

I find your viewpoint very narrow and your attitude judgmental.
I'm making a judgment of your inappropriate actions and statements -- not a judgment of your motives, your heart, or your faith. There's a big difference.

I had rather you take the New testament and show me I am wrong

I'n not going to beat you over the head with the Bible. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong. But I will defend my own position scripturally.

There are many people here who hold sincere beliefs about their salvation. You need to respect them, even if you disagree with them. The world's souls are not dependent upon how Baerly interprets the gospel message.

sojourner · Aug 31, 2006

Super Universe said:
So, in your view, we do not become baptized to build a relationship with God but to build a relationship with fellow church members. A rite of passage in order to be welcomed by a group.

It's both. Because the body of believers is the body of Christ, we are one, as Christ and God are one.

Super Universe · Aug 31, 2006

sojourner said:
It's both. Because the body of believers is the body of Christ, we are one, as Christ and God are one.

A man is certainly capable of believing in Christ without ever being baptized but it's obvious that this human created ritual is what matters most to you, not what a person truly feels in their heart.

Linus · Sep 1, 2006

Super Universe said:
...this human created ritual is...

You've called baptism a human created ritual before on this thread. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I can't see why you think that baptism was somehow invented by humans. Especially in light of the fact that Jesus told us to do it and even went through it Himself. I hardly think Jesus would take the time to be baptized if it was just some "human created ritual."

sojourner · Sep 1, 2006

Super Universe said:
A man is certainly capable of believing in Christ without ever being baptized but it's obvious that this human created ritual is what matters most to you, not what a person truly feels in their heart.

Of course one is capable of belief without baptism. One comes to belief before one is baptized.

How is it obvious that the ritual is more important to me than the stance of the individual? I said that baptism is an act of obedience -- a physical sign of where one's heart is. I've also said that baptism isn't magic. I've also said that baptism isn't necessary to salvation.

BTW: What's wrong with human-created ritual? Cannot humanity possess some impetus to truth, without everything "falling out of the sky?" Of course baptism is a human ritual. It's also a sacrament, in which God reveals God's self to us in a physical sign. The humans who practice it are humans who desire a closer relationship to God. If the ritual helps them do that, GREAT!

I merely said that faith (and baptism), by their nature, can be private, but never individual. Faith is community-based, because its nature is love, as God's nature is love. Love is about relationship. Likewise, baptism is about relationship -- not only one's relationship to Christ, but also one's relationship to all the faithful who make up Christ's body. Baptism belongs to the body of the faithful -- not to any one individual.

Super Universe · Sep 1, 2006

Why do I call baptism a human ritual? Because I know that God is not concerned with these trivial things. He does not need us to attend a human built church. He does not need us to pay a man there to tell us about God. He does not wish for us to harm anything in His name. He does not need us to separate into groups divided by invisible borders and flags and religious doctrine.

Jesus said to do it? Could you explain why you believe this?

He went through it? Sure, He also went through crucifixtion but I hope that's not going to become the next Christian ritual. You know in the Philipines the Christians perform a very bloody religious ritual.

God wants us to experience the universe and learn about it. He does not tempt us or place any requirement upon us. We are His children and He provides us with complete freedom with no expectations. We are on the earth to see what we are capable of and what we will become when we are separated from God.

What have you become?

sojourner · Sep 1, 2006

Super Universe said:
Why do I call baptism a human ritual? Because I know that God is not concerned with these trivial things. He does not need us to attend a human built church. He does not need us to pay a man there to tell us about God. He does not wish for us to harm anything in His name. He does not need us to separate into groups divided by invisible borders and flags and religious doctrine.

Jesus said to do it? Could you explain why you believe this?

He went through it? Sure, He also went through crucifixtion but I hope that's not going to become the next Christian ritual. You know in the Philipines the Christians perform a very bloody religious ritual.

God wants us to experience the universe and learn about it. He does not tempt us or place any requirement upon us. We are His children and He provides us with complete freedom with no expectations. We are on the earth to see what we are capable of and what we will become when we are separated from God.

What have you become?

God is deeply concerned about our relational activities, both with God and with the rest of the faithful.

God doesn't need us to do that...but we need us to do that. Two concerns here: 1) If Christ is the head and cornerstone of the Church, does that not make it at least partially God-built? 2) What's wrong with a human institution? If God found it acceptable to become one of us, why should we shun a human institution in which we strive to become Godlike?

Do you really think that's all there is to the ordained minstry? How sad. The clergy are an organic part of the organic whole, just as the laity are.

I agree. yet, God chooses to work through flawed human beings. The Body operates as a unified whole, in matters of preaching the gospel, ministering to others, and building the kingdom, because that's how God wants it. So what if we mistakenly divide ourselves?

I can't understand why you're so opposed to anything "manmade." What's your aversion to humanity? Why are you so concerned that God not become sullied with humanity? Especially in light of the Christ-event?

Super Universe · Sep 1, 2006

sojourner said:
Of course one is capable of belief without baptism. One comes to belief before one is baptized.

How is it obvious that the ritual is more important to me than the stance of the individual? I said that baptism is an act of obedience -- a physical sign of where one's heart is. I've also said that baptism isn't magic. I've also said that baptism isn't necessary to salvation.

BTW: What's wrong with human-created ritual? Cannot humanity possess some impetus to truth, without everything "falling out of the sky?" Of course baptism is a human ritual. It's also a sacrament, in which God reveals God's self to us in a physical sign. The humans who practice it are humans who desire a closer relationship to God. If the ritual helps them do that, GREAT!

I merely said that faith (and baptism), by their nature, can be private, but never individual. Faith is community-based, because its nature is love, as God's nature is love. Love is about relationship. Likewise, baptism is about relationship -- not only one's relationship to Christ, but also one's relationship to all the faithful who make up Christ's body. Baptism belongs to the body of the faithful -- not to any one individual.

When a man has a child does he require that child to be obedient to him? This is ancient history. Initially the requirement for obedience is to protect the child from being harmed by things they are unaware of. As the child grows older the purpose changes into helping them develop into a mature adult.

What parent requires obedience from their fully grown child?

God does not require us to be obedient. All are saved. All are forgiven.

There are some humans who have no self direction, no self control or self guidance. They are among us. The angels gave us the ten commandments in order to give some guidance to these humans. Most men would never think of raping a woman because they know inside that it is wrong but some need an external control (the police and threat of prison).

sojourner · Sep 1, 2006

Super Universe said:
When a man has a child does he require that child to be obedient to him? This is ancient history. Initially the requirement for obedience is to protect the child from being harmed by things they are unaware of. As the child grows older the purpose changes into helping them develop into a mature adult.

What parent requires obedience from their fully grown child?

God does not require us to be obedient. All are saved. All are forgiven.

There are some humans who have no self direction, no self control or self guidance. They are among us. The angels gave us the ten commandments in order to give some guidance to these humans. Most men would never think of raping a woman because they know inside that it is wrong but some need an external control (the police and threat of prison).

While I do not remain obedient to my parents, I still respect them and what they taught me, so I have tended to remain obedient to their teaching.

Assuming that we're still talking about baptism here, I suppose you take exception to the idea that we must be obedient by being baptized. I take exception to that, too, for the reasons you outline above. However, I participate in baptism, because of the reasons I outlined above. Baptism didn't save me. Christ saved me. I participate in baptism as a sign that I accept that fact.

Super Universe · Sep 1, 2006

sojourner said:
God is deeply concerned about our relational activities, both with God and with the rest of the faithful.

God doesn't need us to do that...but we need us to do that. Two concerns here: 1) If Christ is the head and cornerstone of the Church, does that not make it at least partially God-built? 2) What's wrong with a human institution? If God found it acceptable to become one of us, why should we shun a human institution in which we strive to become Godlike?

Do you really think that's all there is to the ordained minstry? How sad. The clergy are an organic part of the organic whole, just as the laity are.

I agree. yet, God chooses to work through flawed human beings. The Body operates as a unified whole, in matters of preaching the gospel, ministering to others, and building the kingdom, because that's how God wants it. So what if we mistakenly divide ourselves?

I can't understand why you're so opposed to anything "manmade." What's your aversion to humanity? Why are you so concerned that God not become sullied with humanity? Especially in light of the Christ-event?

I don't believe that God is concerned in the least. He is absolutely sure of our outcome. If He truly was concerned then He would lift the veil covering us and we would feel His presence and immediately remember Him and who we really are.

A church God-built? Do you leave the door open for the service? When did Jesus say to make a building in His name and go there each Sunday and pay the man there to tell you what Jesus meant?

What's wrong with church as an human institution? In theory nothing, in actual practice a great deal. It divides and separates people. Many use it to point fingers at their brothers and sisters. In church certain humans (priests, preachers, popes, pastors...) are elevated to lofty positions as representatives of God and viewed as the only ones who can interpret revelation. If God truly guides them then they would be perfect but they are not.

In my opinion no human should have to guide another human toward the Creator. Certainly some need guidance because they do not feel confident in their ability to figure out religious things for themselves so they put their faith in another person and simply do what he tells them to do.

If a person absolutely needs this structure then they should continue with it. But know this, what a person believes is their choice and only they are responsible for it. If the preacher, the congregation, and the bible all tell you something about God that is wrong (for instance, that God kills) you are still responsible because you chose to believe it.

I'm not opposed to anything man made what I am opposed to is these rules that humans put before God. No one needs to pay for forgiveness. No one needs to get wet and speak certain words. No one needs to kill a goat in Mecca. No one needs to belong to a certain group. These are all human inventions.

God is free to all. Look for Him everywhere, not just in a church.

Super Universe · Sep 1, 2006

sojourner said:
While I do not remain obedient to my parents, I still respect them and what they taught me, so I have tended to remain obedient to their teaching.

Assuming that we're still talking about baptism here, I suppose you take exception to the idea that we must be obedient by being baptized. I take exception to that, too, for the reasons you outline above. However, I participate in baptism, because of the reasons I outlined above. Baptism didn't save me. Christ saved me. I participate in baptism as a sign that I accept that fact.

Baptism is your tradition so you follow it in respect to your parents. By itself it is a harmless thing.

I see nothing wrong with is as long as it remains a harmless thing and does not become something so important to people that they believe that it is necessary to find God or be accepted into the group.

Would your group accept me if I believed everything they believed but I refused to become baptized?

sojourner · Sep 1, 2006

Super Universe said:
I don't believe that God is concerned in the least. He is absolutely sure of our outcome. If He truly was concerned then He would lift the veil covering us and we would feel His presence and immediately remember Him and who we really are.

A church God-built? Do you leave the door open for the service? When did Jesus say to make a building in His name and go there each Sunday and pay the man there to tell you what Jesus meant?

What's wrong with church as an human institution? In theory nothing, in actual practice a great deal. It divides and separates people. Many use it to point fingers at their brothers and sisters. In church certain humans (priests, preachers, popes, pastors...) are elevated to lofty positions as representatives of God and viewed as the only ones who can interpret revelation. If God truly guides them then they would be perfect but they are not.

In my opinion no human should have to guide another human toward the Creator. Certainly some need guidance because they do not feel confident in their ability to figure out religious things for themselves so they put their faith in another person and simply do what he tells them to do.

If a person absolutely needs this structure then they should continue with it. But know this, what a person believes is their choice and only they are responsible for it. If the preacher, the congregation, and the bible all tell you something about God that is wrong (for instance, that God kills) you are still responsible because you chose to believe it.

I'm not opposed to anything man made what I am opposed to is these rules that humans put before God. No one needs to pay for forgiveness. No one needs to get wet and speak certain words. No one needs to kill a goat in Mecca. No one needs to belong to a certain group. These are all human inventions.

God is free to all. Look for Him everywhere, not just in a church.

Then why did Christ come?

The Church is not the building, or the religious leader, or the doctrine. The Church is the Body of Christ.

And yet, God still uses it to fulfill God's purposes.

That is not true in any church I have attended.

Why? We're imperfect human beings, just like everyone else.

Then, what did Jesus do???

Correct.

yes, God is free to all, yet, all believers belong to Christ and, hence, the Body of Christ. How can one profess unity with God, if one is not willing to be in union with the other members of the Body???

Super Universe · Sep 1, 2006

Christ came to fulfill His bestowal mission on the earth so He could know what God's children go through during our human life experiments and be qualified to sit in judgement over us.

There is a spiritual highway leading to heaven but it is much longer than we now believe. It is as long as the radius of the universe, and the universe is much, much larger than our scientists can see. The first rest stop is the afterlife. To continue on from there you must have Christ's approval.

How does God use a human church to fulfill His purposes? Was Jesus born to a priest? Was Mohammad? Buddha? Joseph Smith? Did Jesus walk from temple to temple and preach His sermons only there? It does not seem to me that God uses human religion. It seems to me that He avoids them.

Preachers are imperfect beings, just like everyone else? Exactly. Preachers above all must remain humble. I'm sure many do but how humble are the ones on television who seek fame in God's name? People follow them when they should be avoiding them.

No human should have to guide another but undoubtedly we do. God connects with individuals not groups. When has revelation come to an assembly? Certainly much more often it comes to an individual who has opened the door on their own. This is the way it works. What did Jesus do? Well He was the Son of God. Human? Sure until His crucifixtion. Is He human now? No. So why would I now choose to follow a human?

But I will say this, if tomorrow a human speaks wisdom I will listen. If he reveals things that connect with my heart, I will listen.

Is only a Christian congregation the body of Christ? Why not a man who lives in the Amazon? Why not a woman struggling with drug addiction? No one can separate what God has joined. Do not close the door of your church to them. We are all children of God.

sojourner · Sep 1, 2006

Super Universe said:
Christ came to fulfill His bestowal mission on the earth so He could know what God's children go through during our human life experiments and be qualified to sit in judgement over us.

There is a spiritual highway leading to heaven but it is much longer than we now believe. It is as long as the radius of the universe, and the universe is much, much larger than our scientists can see. The first rest stop is the afterlife. To continue on from there you must have Christ's approval.

How does God use a human church to fulfill His purposes? Was Jesus born to a priest? Was Mohammad? Buddha? Joseph Smith? Did Jesus walk from temple to temple and preach His sermons only there? It does not seem to me that God uses human religion. It seems to me that He avoids them.

Preachers are imperfect beings, just like everyone else? Exactly. Preachers above all must remain humble. I'm sure many do but how humble are the ones on television who seek fame in God's name? People follow them when they should be avoiding them.

No human should have to guide another but undoubtedly we do. God connects with individuals not groups. When has revelation come to an assembly? Certainly much more often it comes to an individual who has opened the door on their own. This is the way it works. What did Jesus do? Well He was the Son of God. Human? Sure until His crucifixtion. Is He human now? No. So why would I now choose to follow a human?

But I will say this, if tomorrow a human speaks wisdom I will listen. If he reveals things that connect with my heart, I will listen.

Is only a Christian congregation the body of Christ? Why not a man who lives in the Amazon? Why not a woman struggling with drug addiction? No one can separate what God has joined. Do not close the door of your church to them. We are all children of God.

Christ came to find that which was lost.

We have it, through grace.

Sooo...the Church does not preach the gospel? The Church does not mediate Christ to the world? The Church does not provide for the needy? The Church does not proclaim the kingdom?

So, Jimmy Swaggart sets the standard for whether or not all ministers are a bad idea???

Jesus is always God incarnate. And we follow him.

All Christian congregations are part of the one Body of Christ. Every person is invited to be part of the one Body. All are invited to the banquet.

Super Universe · Sep 1, 2006

Christ came to find the lost? Then why did He leave? Why did He not remain and continue to this day to preach from the mount?

The church mediates Christ to the world? The church mediates it's version of Him to the world. It elevates the Son to an equal level with God although The Son never said this or meant to imply it was so. Jesus preached about His Father a great deal but for some even the Son of God is not enough.

The church also mediates it's specific rituals to the world. Would any church that believes in submergence baptism accept a sprinkling baptism? Doubtful. You have to perform the rite of passage of that particular group, then pay your dues, and get a membership card, only then (they believe) will Christ know you exist.

Many church groups do great work providing for those in need, without a doubt.

Jimmy Swaggart the standard for ministers? I sure hope not. All ministers are not a bad idea, neither are all religions. Many people need their help to get through difficult times in their lives but if someone goes to a church for a few years and still needs them, well then they just haven't learned anything.

God is not going to break down the church door to help them, they need to open the door in their mind on their own. He is just on the other side, waiting there now.

So I am invited to join your group?

But I'm sure the invitation is only as long as I comply with your church tenets, right? I must become baptized in your specific way and do whatever else you have set as your rules for salvation because Christ will not accept me unless I have a current membership card.

Linus · Sep 1, 2006

Super Universe said:
Why do I call baptism a human ritual? Because I know that God is not concerned with these trivial things. He does not need us to attend a human built church. He does not need us to pay a man there to tell us about God. He does not wish for us to harm anything in His name.

You make a lot of claims. Care to back any of them up scrpiturally? At any rate, I'll agree that He may not need any of it, but could you not say that God wants some of those things for us? I would say that the lone fact that God doesn't inherently need them is not sufficient reason to avoid those things or claim them to be useless. God didn't need to create us, but He did. So, we must have a purpose. God doesn't need our praise, but He tells us to give it. Therefore, it too must have a purpose. It doesn't change Godor make Him any better, but it does make us better. An that is wat I think God cares about.

Super Universe said:
He does not need us to separate into groups divided by invisible borders and flags and religious doctrine.

I will agree with that.

Super Universe said:
Jesus said to do it? Could you explain why you believe this?

Because It's in the Bible. It's found in the book of Matthew chapter 28 and verse 19. It records Jesus as saying, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." (NASB)

Super Universe said:
He went through it? Sure, He also went through crucifixtion but I hope that's not going to become the next Christian ritual. You know in the Philipines the Christians perform a very bloody religious ritual.

The crucifixion was a wholly diferent act with completely different consequences. The apostles baptized thousands at a time back in the days of the early church. And every conversion story in the New Testament ends in a baptism.

Super Universe said:
He does not tempt us or place any requirement upon us. We are His children and He provides us with complete freedom with no expectations.

Again, you make a claim that you are not backing up. Where does this idea come from? I would say that the Bible gives us the requirement of love. What about spiritual growth? Or peace? Are those not requirements? In saying that God requires nothing of us, you completely ignore the very same scripture that you claim to follow.

Super Universe · Sep 1, 2006

It's in the bible? Baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit says nothing about getting wet.

John says about Jesus (Matthew 4:11) "One is coming who will baptize you with the Holy Spirit..."

Did Jesus ever baptize anyone in water?

John (3:22) says that in the Judean countryside where He (Jesus) spent some time with them (Apostles) and baptized (With water? With the Holy Spirit?).

Then John (4:2) says (though Jesus Himself didn't baptize them-His disciples did). I believe Jesus baptized people with the Holy Spirit.

I'm not saying that baptism is inherently bad, what I'm saying is that people (parishoners and preachers) put importance upon it when it means nothing to God whatsoever. It is not a requirement or desire from God, it is a requirement to join a group, like a fraternity initiation. But there is a fine line here because these church groups claim to represent God and Jesus.

God does not tempt us or place any requirement upon us. Where do I get this idea from? Revelation, my own connection with God, my own understanding that we are forgiven, and the truth that God is love which means He cannot become angry. This is not possible. He does not punish, He does not harm, and He does not tempt His Son or His children.

Who puts the words of man before God?

The bible requires that we love? But if we do not and are punished then where is the forgiveness?

To finally get into heaven we must love unconditionally but heaven is not the next step. We have a long, long, long ways to go. Many schoolhouses are in between.

I ignore the scripture? Sure, I ignore the parts about talking serpents, God sending floods, tempting and torturing Job, God getting angry, killing and murdering millions.

Is this what you teach? That God actually kills people or sends His agents to kill people? That God violates His own laws?

roli · Sep 1, 2006

Super Universe said:
Super Universe said:

It's in the bible? Baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit says nothing about getting wet.

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Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

John says about Jesus (Matthew 4:11) "One is coming who will baptize you with the Holy Spirit..."

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Jhn 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Did Jesus ever baptize anyone in water?

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God sent John to baptize unto repentance for the remission of sins
Jesus had to be baptized:
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mar 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

John (3:22) says that in the Judean countryside where He (Jesus) spent some time with them (Apostles) and baptized (With water? With the Holy Spirit?).
John here does not mention the holy spirit,your out of context here!
Then John (4:2) says (though Jesus Himself didn't baptize them-His disciples did). I believe Jesus baptized people with the Holy Spirit.
After he rose from the grave Acts 1:5 & Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

I'm not saying that baptism is inherently bad, what I'm saying is that people (parishoners and preachers) put importance upon it when it means nothing to God whatsoever. It is not a requirement or desire from God, it is a requirement to join a group, like a fraternity initiation. But there is a fine line here because these church groups claim to represent God and Jesus.

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Baptism before Jesus came and during his time on earth was a baptism unto repentance for remission of sins
Water was always a means to wash and cleanse the flesh,especially in the temple worship but only until Jesus came his blood was shed to remove our sin.
Baptism now is obedience to God because it is symbolic to identify to the death (down in water) ,burial (there you stay in the water for a second)and resurrection of Jesus( the coming up from the water)

God does not tempt us or place any requirement upon us. Where do I get this idea from? Revelation, my own connection with God, my own understanding that we are forgiven, and the truth that God is love which means He cannot become angry. This is not possible. He does not punish, He does not harm, and He does not tempt His Son or His children.

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It is wishful thinking that God won't punish the wicked if he is right and you are wrong you may have eternity to think about it in the second death of eternal torment
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Read the bible, do a word study on "the wrath of God" 30 verses just on the word "wrath of God"
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

Do another search on the ""anger of God
Deu 6:15 (For the LORD thy God [is] a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The bible requires that we love? But if we do not and are punished then where is the forgiveness?

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Jesus says,Repent or you will perish Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish
Forgiveness comes after you repent and turn from sin and trust Jesus to be your Lord and Savior

To finally get into heaven we must love unconditionally but heaven is not the next step. We have a long, long, long ways to go. Many schoolhouses are in between.

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Well today is not promised to any of us neither is heaven only by his grace and not of worksEph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God so no man can boast
Perfect love comes from God and when we are saved from our sins
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

I ignore the scripture? Sure, I ignore the parts about talking serpents, God sending floods, tempting and torturing Job, God getting angry, killing and murdering millions.

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Why would anyone really want to recognize the truth of God to suit our lifstyle,belief systems ,who wants to believe in something that infringes upon their freedoms and lifestyle.
We would rather create in our minds our own god who is loving ,not angry, very pleasant would not could not create a hell

Is this what you teach? That God actually kills people or sends His agents to kill people? That God violates His own laws?

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On the contrary it is us that violate His law,thus we shall be judged and condemned unless we receive the gift of His Son,that He took our sin debt,we broke the law He paid the fine and did the time,paid the price once and for all,but we must believe,recieve,repent confess Jesus as Lord

Christian - Baptism

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