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the trinity
- Thread starter syo
- Start date
There are a "Jesus only" group that says it is just God, period, so they don't believe the general concept of the Trinity.
As far as "roles", I suppose that people will have diferent ways of saying it. But here is mine:
The Father is the Architect;
The Son then gives the orders *(The Word)
And the Holy Spirit creates it.
Sorta like mankind
Spirit - gives the direction
Soul - hears it, speaks it and gives the order to do it
Body - does it.
2 cents is probably all it is worth to express a limitless God.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Id see it, going by KenS's structure,
God:
Creator/Father/The actual Word itself (Source)
1 John 5:11-12 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has this eternal life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have this eternal life.
2 Corinthians 5:21 God made the one who knew no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the right-eousness of God.
Christ:
Human/Son/Word-Messenger
Malachi 3:1
"Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts.
(Hebrews 7:16)
Jesus as Prophet
https://www.learnthebible.org/christ-a-prophet.html
Holy spirit:
Spirit/God's loveEtc/Spirit
Is the function from and by which the Source brings the himself and messenger to the believers in it (Acts 2:1-5)
Source: the creator (Genesis)
Incarnation of the Source: Jesus (Hebrews)
Power from the Source: the spirit/holy (Acts)
Works together: trinity (Luke 1:35; 2 Corinthians 3:17; Colossians 2:9; John 1:14)
But not each other (Mark 13:32; John 20:17)
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Some no. Some yes. There are many different ways to have non-Trinitarian beliefs. A few I’m somewhat familiar with:
- the Mormon “Godhead”
- believing that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are just aspects or expressions of one God in one person
- believing that the Holy Spirit is not a person in its own right, but is a manifestation of God the Father
- believing that Jesus is not God, but is still the son of God
- believing that Jesus was fully God but not actually man, instead making himself only appear to be a man
OCCAMS razor..........I tried to come up with a 2 letter word but failed you win.....is YES three separate letters or one word? I mean was Y first, E second S third. Are they of the same nature but different sub stance? I mean we can't go SEY so there clearly is a proper order to them because SEY is not YES. They are a trinity three parts but larger than the three parts a quality something different not just three parts. Out of that comes a something not in the parts but wholey is the three parts as well
I wonder how long I could make my babble ramble...... a book? a MOVIE
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InChrist
Free4ever
All Christian denominations define the Trinity as the triune Godhead; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, One God, three Persons all equally God in eternal essence and nature.
All true regenerated Christian believers believe in the Trinity.
'It is not believing in the Trinity that makes us Christian. Rather, it is being a Christian (and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit) that enables us to believe in the Trinity. So, in one sense it's not a requirement to affirm the doctrines the Trinity in order to become saved. However, the true Christian will not deny the doctrine of the Trinity because the Holy Spirit will bear witness of truth (John 15:26) in the Trinity as true. This would mean that anyone who claims to be a Christian, but openly and continually rejects the doctrine of the Trinity, is probably not truly saved."
https://carm.org/do-you-have-to-believe-the-trinity-to-be-christian
What is the economic Trinity?
https://www.gotquestions.org/economic-Trinity.html
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
One difference is that 'modalists', often called Sabellians, make no distinction between the three persons, in the trinity.
Some American churches are modalist theologically, although the persons, having different names, are or could be used in a 'triune', notation, or description. Whether that is done, or not, probably depends on the individual.
Another trinitarian belief is, also, that although there are different persons, in the trinity, these are not entirely distinct, and, Biblically, this is very supported, of course.
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Modalism, and Sabellianism , were noted as, we can infer, prevalent amongst those not of the western standardized church, and is basically considered a 'heresy', by the catholic church, after they had decided on what the aspects of the trinity, were, theologically.
Except of course that is not true, unless some given Christian(s) decide that others who identify themselves as Christians aren't really "true Christians" because they don't believe the same way as they themselves do.
Is this an example of that?
That's a mighty bold assertion!
Funny thing is, those other Christians say the exact same thing in reverse. Seems to me both don't quite seem to understand what Grace is.And of course this is complete nonsense. The Trinity formulation is not explicitly stated in scripture as such, nor does that verse or any part of scripture state that true Christians will be Trinitarians. I personally don't see why how one conceptualizes God is proof of anything about their faith. That makes zero sense to me, as it is not a matter of conceptualizations about God, that one actually knows God with.
That would actually mean that the person that wrote this is too ignorant to be considered trustworthy. I hear a deeply ignorant person speaking on that site, one you'd do well to write off.
That fact he says this at all, playing God with his theological measuring stick, indicates the lack of "salvation" is not the one he points his pudgy fingers at, but himself for saying this. This is the fruit I see when I look for those who truly know Grace. I don't hear that here. It doesn't measure up.
syo
Well-Known Member
immortal, with supernatural powers, creator of the universe.
exchemist
Veteran Member
outlawState
Deism is dead
Isaac Newton isn't damned because the Trinity was never a biblical subject for belief. The only belief required for Christianity is belief in Jesus, the man, as the son of God, i.e. he who came from God. The Trinity is a subject of human philosophy. Philosophy is never believed in but has the same status as human law, i.e. it is either rational or irrational. The Trinity may be rational or irrational depending on how it is defined, but more often than not it is defined irrationally, especially when it incorporates the idea of Jesus as God. Jesus never acknowledged himself as "God" but as having the identity of God.
A notion that Jesus is God himself is antithetical to faith, and a confounding of God the Father with Jesus the man, who always admitted the Father as his God, and never pretended to equality with God the Father himself, although he always retained God's very identity for himself so allowed himself the likeness or image of God, which the apostles did concede. "Let no one deceive himself. If any of you thinks he is wise in this age, he should become a fool, so that he may become wise." 1 Cor 8:2.
The trinity (three gods) repudiates faith in Christ, where he is really regarded as nothing but the Father in human form (a recognized heresy by Trinitarians), or a completely separate God (a non-conceded heresy of Trinitarians), depending on definition. As to the Catholic Trinity, many scholastics have doubted whether it is capable of really repudiating the three-Gods idea, where each God has his own given "hypostasis" only joined together by a "substance." Substance or essence is such a vague notion in terms of spirit. The emphasis of the Catholic Trinity is "three Gods" not "one God" which is why so many find it objectionable.
God's "person" (itself an absurd idea as God is spirit) then becomes so confused that it is no longer possible to have faith in Jesus, for faith then becomes faith in a mystery, or really equivalent to a superior gnosis, reposing mainly in the "knowledge" that Jesus is a member of the trinity. Thus faith becomes transferred from faith in Christ to faith in the church or the Pope. Hence the OP asked, "are there Christians who don't belive in the Trinity?" Christians were never required to believe in any Trinity but to believe in Christ. Accepting the trinity is something completely different.
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exchemist
Veteran Member
Yes, I was taking issue with @InChrist, who would seem to be some kind of Protestant Trinitarian, seeing as he or she quotes from that CARM website and goes on about being "saved", something no Catholic would venture an opinion on.
Would you be, like Newton, a Unitarian, then?
InChrist
Free4ever
Not surprising. I was raised Catholic. Of course, as I got older I just assumed I was Christian because I was a Catholic, not practicing... but still a baptized Catholic. I despised all that "born again" or "saved" stuff wherever and whenever I heard someone say it. Then one day I was saved and born again and my life and thinking was completely transformed. I was thrilled to talk about being saved by Jesus Christ. What a surprise to hear someone in a Bible study one morning make the same complaint you have made about detesting this "saved' stuff! That's when I realized, just because someone attends a "Christian" church...doesn't mean they have trusted their life to Jesus and are saved.
I have no idea what Isaac Newton's relationship with the Lord was, but God knows and that is what matters.
exchemist
Veteran Member
I am very happy to hear you say that about Newton.
Your clarification sheds a new light on the quote you gave us in post 9, which said: "This would mean that anyone who claims to be a Christian, but openly and continually rejects the doctrine of the Trinity, is probably not truly saved." It seems to put more importance on "truly", whatever that means. (No true Scotsman?)
It seems to me presumptuous to claim that we know who is "saved" and suggest who probably is not, especially as the implication seems to be that those who are not "saved" are damned. Or is there a way of finessing that unpalatable implication?
InChrist
Free4ever
Jesus did say that we will know them by their fruits (or actions), so I think there are times when judgement is proper. For example a man that claims to be a "Christian", yet continually abuses his wife behind closed doors. Or a long time pastor who has been putting on a show as such a man of God, but come to find out he is a pedophile who has molested dozens of children. These actions prove that these kind of people, while claiming to be "Christians" are in reality NOT. God is the ultimate Judge when it comes to eternity and only He knows a person's heart and motives. I am glad to leave that position to Him, but we are called to use discernment and wisdom.