Muthos and Logos

rrobs · May 16, 2018

In researching the Greek word "muthos" I have noticed that it is usually presented as a way to pass on truth. At least that is what most scholars seem to say. But what does the Bible say about muthos?

1Tim 1:4,

Neither give heed to fables [muthos] and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].

1Tim 4:7,

But refuse profane and old wives' fables [muthos], and exercise thyself [rather] unto godliness.

2Tim 4:4,

And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables [muthos].

Titus 1:14,

Not giving heed to Jewish fables [muthos], and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

2Pet 1:16,

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables [muthos], when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Clearly God has a low opinion of muthos. Logos, usually translated "word," on the other hand is the essence of truth. It is used over 300 times in the NT, virtually always in a positive light. I could list many, but I'll leave it up to the reader to look them up.

As opposed to avoiding muthos, we are told to follow the logos as our sole rule of faith and practice. Muthos is where we get the English word "myth" while logos is where we get the word "logic." According to the scriptures, God is a strong supporter of logic, but condemns myths. Is a son being his own father [i.e. the trinity] logical or mythic?

Sunstone · May 16, 2018

As far as I know, the ancient Greek word "logos" had many different and distinct meanings. It almost certainly isn't as simple as saying it meant "logic" to the early Christians.

Quintessence · May 16, 2018

It would certainly be ironic and hypocritical if a scripture that is itself mythos condemned mythos. Looks to me that the condemnations are basically targeted at unapproved/outsider mythos, not mythos in its entirety. From my admittedly limited understanding of the Bible, that sort of commentary is not atypical of the text as a whole.

David T · May 16, 2018

rrobs said:
In researching the Greek word "muthos" I have noticed that it is usually presented as a way to pass on truth. At least that is what most scholars seem to say. But what does the Bible say about muthos?

1Tim 1:4,

Neither give heed to fables [muthos] and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].

1Tim 4:7,

But refuse profane and old wives' fables [muthos], and exercise thyself [rather] unto godliness.

2Tim 4:4,

And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables [muthos].

Titus 1:14,

Not giving heed to Jewish fables [muthos], and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

2Pet 1:16,

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables [muthos], when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Clearly God has a low opinion of muthos. Logos, usually translated "word," on the other hand is the essence of truth. It is used over 300 times in the NT, virtually always in a positive light. I could list many, but I'll leave it up to the reader to look them up.

As opposed to avoiding muthos, we are told to follow the logos as our sole rule of faith and practice. Muthos is where we get the English word "myth" while logos is where we get the word "logic." According to the scriptures, God is a strong supporter of logic, but condemns myths. Is a son being his own father [i.e. the trinity] logical or mythic?

Heraclitus logos is the opposite of Pythagorean logos. Pythagoras is a lunatic.

Heraclitus said the logos is common but everyone seems to have their own understanding. Heraclitus is the source understanding of the term logos in the bible.. It's not human logic or logic even in a modern sense logic as logic is understood today..

rrobs · May 17, 2018

Sunstone said:
As far as I know, the ancient Greek word "logos" had many different and distinct meanings. It almost certainly isn't as simple as saying it meant "logic" to the early Christians.

Thanks for the heads up. You are right. Logos does have a more complex meaning. I was just saying we get our word "logic" from it, and that I believe is right as far as it goes.

Perhaps a more accurate description would be a "plan" or the thought behind that plan. That works well with John 1:1. God had a plan for redeeming man before He even created the world. Central to that plan was that the man Jesus Christ would correct the problem created by the man Adam. It was an absolutely brilliant plan that was based in real world conditions, not fantasy or myths. Hence our word logic.

rrobs · May 17, 2018

David T said:
Heraclitus logos is the opposite of Pythagorean logos. Pythagoras is a lunatic.

Heraclitus said the logos is common but everyone seems to have their own understanding. Heraclitus is the source understanding of the term logos in the bible.. It's not human logic or logic even in a modern sense logic as logic is understood today..

Yes. I was just keeping things simple. Maybe too simple. Nonetheless, we do get our word logic from logos, which is all I really said.

I think logos is logical in the sense that it deals with real world ideas that people experience every day as opposed to three headed monsters flying overhead and spitting fire which would come under the category of myth.

rrobs · May 17, 2018

Quintessence said:
It would certainly be ironic and hypocritical if a scripture that is itself mythos condemned mythos. Looks to me that the condemnations are basically targeted at unapproved/outsider mythos, not mythos in its entirety. From my admittedly limited understanding of the Bible, that sort of commentary is not atypical of the text as a whole.

I think the point is that the Bible is not muthos at all. John 1:1 says it is logos. I don't think there is any irony or hypocrisy there. The Bible, when read as written without preconceived ideas, makes sense, is logical, in our real world experiences. Muthos are things or ideas that are not of the real world we all live in. They are fantasy as opposed to reality.

David T · May 17, 2018

rrobs said:
Yes. I was just keeping things simple. Maybe too simple. Nonetheless, we do get our word logic from logos, which is all I really said.

I think logos is logical in the sense that it deals with real world ideas that people experience every day as opposed to three headed monsters flying overhead and spitting fire which would come under the category of myth.

Random is myth yet it's understood as fact! I have never seen a whale walking the trails playing a guitar in all the time I have spent hiking. If I see one I will believe in random or miracles in religious terms, or random accidentally in science terms. Random is related to the observer it has no validity to the observered yet it's treated as a religious fanatic truth in science that's a total myth of the intellect in childish projection onto nature. It's Pythagorean logos as well.

rrobs · May 17, 2018

David T said:
Random is myth yet it's understood as fact! I have never seen a whale walking the trails playing a guitar in all the time I have spent hiking. If I see one I will believe in random or miracles in religious terms, or random accidentally in science terms. Random is related to the observer it has no validity to the observered yet it's treated as a religious fanatic truth in science that's a total myth of the intellect in childish projection onto nature. It's Pythagorean logos as well.

John 17:17,

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Belief in the above is optional. I spent part of my life not believing it and part believing it, so I've seen it from both sides. I just happen to prefer the latter. I understand everyone's different and many don't believe the Bible is truth. It's a personal decision. I judge nobody for their decision. God knows people's hearts and that's what counts.

1Sam 16:7b,

... for [the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

David T · May 17, 2018

rrobs said:
John 17:17,

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Belief in the above is optional. I spent part of my life not believing it and part believing it, so I've seen it from both sides. I just happen to prefer the latter. I understand everyone's different and many don't believe the Bible is truth. It's a personal decision. I judge nobody for their decision. God knows people's hearts and that's what counts.

1Sam 16:7b,

... for [the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

IS that a golden calf thing? I mean does the book determine nature? I can say that about science as well. How was God understood before books? This is a book CULT-ure after all and jesus only lived because a man decided to ignore the book. Joseph. I mean does God exist without books and if you can't read? Certainly in christianity that's been implied that you need a book.Joseph said nope that's BS. He ignored the book and that became the word of god. I might say it was no Random accident Jesus didn't write.

rrobs · May 17, 2018

David T said:
IS that a golden calf thing? I mean does the book determine nature? I can say that about science as well. How was God understood before books? This is a book CULT-ure after all and jesus only lived because a man decided to ignore the book. Joseph. I mean does God exist without books and if you can't read? Certainly in christianity that's been implied that you need a book.Joseph said nope that's BS. He ignored the book and that became the word of god.

Those would be good questions for your own Biblical research. I will tell you the Bible does answer those questions, so you wouldn't be wasting your time.

Take care for now...

David T · May 17, 2018

rrobs said:
Those would be good questions for your own Biblical research. I will tell you the Bible does answer those questions, so you wouldn't be wasting your time.

Take care for now...

I have a degree in theology. Totally worthless in application to the bible great psych tool of the development of the intellect over the last couple thousand years. Because the intellect expresses exactly how it perceives in separation from itself and the world around it semantically. A fine example of theological fantasy nonsense below. Muddled Garbage.

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you
a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too!

Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too!

What denomination?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too!

Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too!

Northern Conservative Baptist
or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too!

Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
#14Today at 9:58 AM

rrobs · May 17, 2018

David T said:
I have a degree in theology. Totally worthless in application to the bible great psych tool of the development of the intellect over the last couple thousand years. Because the intellect expresses exactly how it perceives in separation from itself and the world around it semantically. A fine example of theological fantasy nonsense below. Muddled Garbage.
I

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you
a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too!

Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too!

What denomination?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too!

Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too!

Northern Conservative Baptist
or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too!

Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
#14Today at 9:58 AM

I think you hit the nail on the head with your story. I guess that's the problem with theology. The scribes and Pharisees knew a lot of theology, but not much about God Himself. Same thing goes on to this day.

syo · May 17, 2018

rrobs said:
Is a son being his own father [i.e. the trinity] logical or mythic?

a son being his own father???

rrobs · May 17, 2018

syo said:
a son being his own father???

If the father is God and Jesus is God, then Jesus would have to be his own father. There is no logical or meaningful way of saying this and that was my point. In other words, the trinity is muthos, not logos.

syo · May 17, 2018

rrobs said:
If the father is God and Jesus is God, then Jesus would have to be his own father. There is no logical or meaningful way of saying this and that was my point. In other words, the trinity is muthos, not logos.

the Trinity is like a triangle. the triangle is god. and each corner is a different face of god. so the son is one corner and the father is another corner. so the son can't be the father. the three corners form the triangle/god. so the trinity isn't mythos.

David T · May 17, 2018

rrobs said:
I think you hit the nail on the head with your story. I guess that's the problem with theology. The scribes and Pharisees knew a lot of theology, but not much about God Himself. Same thing goes on to this day.

St francis said "a Labour works with their hands, a craftsman works with their hands and mind, an artist works with their, hands, mind, and heart" he admits to who He is.

The text is art of a very very deep order deeper than what we understand art to be. Theologians tend to be well meaning craftsmen about the text. Like a professor who teache's a dylan class loves bob dylan, and interprets Bob's songs and teaches how he interprets Bob's songs and the proper way of interpreting the songs. But he is no Bob Dylan. I prefer playing music to listening to someone interpret music for me by some.created methodology. The robin Williams character catches this in the intro to poetry scene dead poets society. And after all what is the text but dead poets. They speak in life and through death.

All that Saud Dietrich bondhoffers cost of discipleship is profound. It's because it's written in a painful time and not at some desk for publication deadlines tenure Tec. That text wow.

qaz · May 17, 2018

syo said:
the Trinity is like a triangle. the triangle is god. and each corner is a different face of god. so the son is one corner and the father is another corner. so the son can't be the father. the three corners form the triangle/god. so the trinity isn't mythos.

the father or the son are not part of the trinity, they are the trinity entirely. a proper example would be a triangle whose corners measure 180° each , and whose sum still is 180°.
the only way out to "rationalize" the concept of trinty is using the set theory of cantor. but if you can it's unlikely you'll believe in something like the trinity.

rrobs · May 17, 2018

syo said:
the Trinity is like a triangle. the triangle is god. and each corner is a different face of god. so the son is one corner and the father is another corner. so the son can't be the father. the three corners form the triangle/god. so the trinity isn't mythos.

What did the triangle become when one of it's corners died?

But we're not talking about triangles. We are talking about a man, namely Jesus Christ. Only in pagan myths do man-gods exist. Such an aeration is not to be found in the scriptures.

rrobs · May 17, 2018

David T said:
A fine example of theological fantasy nonsense below. Muddled Garbage.

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"
He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you
a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too!

Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too!

What denomination?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too!

Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too!

Northern Conservative Baptist
or Northern Liberal Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too!

Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.
#14Today at 9:58 AM

I started to say I doubt something like that would ever happen in real life. But then I thought, of course, it's not a secret the number of people killed in the name of religion. It's a hard rut to get out of. Almost everybody knows what the Bible says before they ever crack it open for the first time. But what they actually know is what the churches have said for thousands of years. The problem is that the preconceived ideas are by and large at odds with the actual text when read as written, much like reading the newspaper. The Bible is pretty straight forward.

Tradition is a huge problem. It's hard to break free from orthodox doctrine. It could be argued that it is a miracle that anyone can read the Bible and see what it says apart from preconceived ideas. At the very least we are exhorted to check out anything someone says about the Bible, including the things I say. I don't want anybody to believe me just because I say something. If you see it in the Word, then what I say is true, otherwise it's false. The Word and nothing but the Word that is the judge.

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