Was Jesus against a world order

dfnj · May 16, 2018

Matthew 4:8-10

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[a]”

What does it mean, "All this I will give you" ? What does it mean to have "all the kingdoms of the world" ? What was Satan trying to give to Jesus?

Does the idea "serve him" mean everyone is a slave either to Satan or to God? In other words, those are your only two choices. Or does worship mean something else? Can someone have a relationship to God other than "worship" and "serve"?

wizanda · May 16, 2018

dfnj said:
What does it mean, "All this I will give you" ? What does it mean to have "all the kingdoms of the world" ? What was Satan trying to give to Jesus?

First off, satan is the accuser of our own ego...

So Yeshua could have had a kingdom back then down here near Hell; yet based on all prophecy, this current evil world is to be reset, and then only the Godly will remain upon it.

Thus it was a test to see if he would take the greed of man or have the patience of a saint, to wait for the coming of the kingdom of God on earth.

dfnj said:
Was Jesus against a world order

In the time to come all nations will serve One Lord and One God, thus there will be a world order... Just not a Babylonian one like we currently have.

dfnj said:
Does the idea "serve him" mean everyone is a slave either to Satan or to God? In other words, those are your only two choices.

Satan merely meant an accuser, the idea people have made it a being opposed to God, isn't real.... It exists as a virus in the matrix, tempting us to see if we fall for it.

There are many different forms of idolatry we can have, anything can become an object of deification; people worship each other, and them self...

Which is where Yeshua said hate self, and family (Luke 14:26); that you then love God with all mind, body, soul, and strength (Luke 10:27)...

No one can serve two masters, we can not serve God and idol worship (Mammon) (Matthew 6:24).

In my opinion.

Vouthon · May 16, 2018

Satan was, according to the temptation narrative in the synoptics, trying to entice Jesus with the promise of social dominance over others by means of political power.

In the Old Testament, Gideon was offered the same in a more limited sense (i.e. over Israel) but rejected the offer because he believed that God was the only true sovereign:

22 Then the Israelites said to Gideon, “Rule over us, you and your son and your grandson also; for you have delivered us out of the hand of Midian.” 23 Gideon said to them, “I will not rule over you, and my son will not rule over you; the Lord will rule over you.” (Judges 8:22-23)

This is important since, in the beginning, God intended humankind to exercise stewardship only over animals and the environment but not to have dominance over our fellow human beings. As the Jesuit theologian Francisco Suarez stated in 1613: "men are by nature free and subject to no one" (DL 3.1.1). He furthermore wrote:

Selections from Three Works - Online Library of Liberty

9. Besides this truth can be taken from the holy Fathers, first, because they assert that man was created by God free and free-born, and only received directly from God the power of ruling over the brute beasts and inferior things; but the dominion of men over men was introduced by human will through sin or some adversity. This Ambrose hands down on Colossians 3, at the end; and more broadly Augustine, 19, The City of God, ch.15, and bk. Quaestion. in Gen. q.153, and Gregory bk.21, Moralia, ch.10, elsewhere ch.11, and in Pastorali, p.2, ch.6.

The urge to have exploitative power over and higher status than other individuals, is associated in the church's tradition with the devil and the first sin:

"Who does not know that kings and dukes had their rulership from those who, not knowing God, strove from blind greed and intolerable presumption to dominate their equals, namely mankind, by pride, rapine, perfidy, murder, and crimes of all sorts, urged on by the ruler of the world, i.e., the devil?…

For His Son (Jesus), even as He is undoubtingly believed to be God and man despised a secular kingdom, which makes the sons of this world swell with pride, and came of His own will to the priesthood of the cross…

Therefore all Christians who desire to reign with Christ should be warned not to strive to rule through ambition of worldly power…"

(Pope Gregory VII in 1081: 552; see also Poole 1920: 201, fn. 5)

As Jesus himself taught:

25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that among the Gentiles, those who appear to be their kings lord it over them, and their 'great' men are tyrants over them. 26 But it shall not be this way among you, rather whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:25-28)

So, Jesus was made to pass through this temptation first and he prevailed.

InChrist · May 16, 2018

dfnj said:
Matthew 4:8-10

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[a]”

What does it mean, "All this I will give you" ? What does it mean to have "all the kingdoms of the world" ? What was Satan trying to give to Jesus?

Does the idea "serve him" mean everyone is a slave either to Satan or to God? In other words, those are your only two choices. Or does worship mean something else? Can someone have a relationship to God other than "worship" and "serve"?

Loving/worshiping and serving God is the only true freedom.

And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. .John 8:35-36

Nakosis · May 16, 2018

dfnj said:
Matthew 4:8-10

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[a]”

What does it mean, "All this I will give you" ? What does it mean to have "all the kingdoms of the world" ? What was Satan trying to give to Jesus?

Does the idea "serve him" mean everyone is a slave either to Satan or to God? In other words, those are your only two choices. Or does worship mean something else? Can someone have a relationship to God other than "worship" and "serve"?

You might have a point.

I think his view was that what happens on earth is immaterial as long as you secure a place in heaven.

I also feel that,

Matthew 22:20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Is basically Jesus telling folks to stay out of politics.

qaz · May 16, 2018

dfnj said:
Can someone have a relationship to God other than "worship" and "serve"?

the answer is no.
while polytheism was born as a speculative system , and the gods were thought to be the agents of the vitality of nature, judaism set "morality" , that is society , at the center of its cult . with judaism you don't obey the law because of a consolidated tradition , you obey yhe law because god will punish you "until the fourth generation", if you don't. this is why yahweh has to be transcendent and one : you must think him as a master - more than a guarantor of the "cosmic laws" , like the ancient gods, which you must provide for through sacrifice in a do ut des exchange.

Rise · May 17, 2018

dfnj said:
Matthew 4:8-10

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[a]”

What does it mean, "All this I will give you" ? What does it mean to have "all the kingdoms of the world" ? What was Satan trying to give to Jesus?

The things satan had control over, most likely. Satan appears to control world orders through people who have chosen to give themselves over to him.

Does the idea "serve him" mean everyone is a slave either to Satan or to God? In other words, those are your only two choices. Or does worship mean something else? Can someone have a relationship to God other than "worship" and "serve"?

That would be consistent with the Bible. In the parables there are wheat and tares, good figs and bad ones, along with numerous other examples if you study it out. There's never any middle ground described or pictured in the Bible. Matthew 6:24.
There's either following God's way or that which is against God's way. There's no neutral ground. Something is either defined as right or wrong; and right is defined by who God is and what He does.

Some people would like to think there is a neutral ground, or that they can chart their own path, but God's ways are the only right ways - You can't be right and not be in line with God. The whole point of the fall of man is that man decided to obey satan instead of God. Any path we think we are carving out on our own is going to be in error when not in line with God's ways and will.

The idea that we can somehow be independent of either the influence of God or satan is also not consistent with the Bible. Romans 6:6. Romans 5:12. 1 Corinthians 15:21.
That we are all born under the sway of satan and sin because of what Adam did, but are redeemed out of that by God to be restored to relationship with him as it was before the fall.

74x12 · May 19, 2018

dfnj said:
Matthew 4:8-10

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[a]”

What does it mean, "All this I will give you" ? What does it mean to have "all the kingdoms of the world" ? What was Satan trying to give to Jesus?

Does the idea "serve him" mean everyone is a slave either to Satan or to God? In other words, those are your only two choices. Or does worship mean something else? Can someone have a relationship to God other than "worship" and "serve"?

Yes Jesus is. That's why the tower of Babel was stopped. The people wanted to stay together with one capital city and one kingdom. The problem with a one world government is that satan will control it. The time will come when Jesus will reign on earth but it's not for a while.

tayla · May 19, 2018

dfnj said:
What does it mean, "All this I will give you" ? What does it mean to have "all the kingdoms of the world" ? What was Satan trying to give to Jesus?

The answer is that the Bible is fiction. That is the answer.

Was Jesus against a world order

dfnj

Well-Known Member

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est

InChrist

Free4ever

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist

qaz

Member

Rise

Well-Known Member

74x12

Well-Known Member

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla