Is a formal unbaptism required when one leaves Christianity?

Desert Snake · May 15, 2018

The real purpose of the church baptism, is when one is converting, or just becoming , a Believer, or simply showing a new church, that you have joined that group..presumably.

In this sense, the baptism does have meaning, it is 'declaration' of sorts, aside from a symbolic inference to your belief, or new belief.

The directive being to 'baptize the nations', if you are part of that 'nation', in religious belief, the church baptism is symbolic, /unnecessary/ , ie you can't get something that you already have.

This means, that an unbaptism, is a declaration of your leaving the faith, and, would have meaning if you chose to be baptized, but no meaning, if you didn't. Imo.

Desert Snake · May 15, 2018

Jumi said:
You're taking this example out of history? These days people don't see baptism as that important. You would have to believe the baptism was magical to feel you need to wash it off.

I would say that it could be very important, to the person.

If the person converted, or just became a believer, this might be very important. So it isn't always the same thing, in meaning.

If the person considered that it did have an affect, it would be important.

There are different types of churches, as well. They baptize differently.

Desert Snake · May 15, 2018

Deeje said:
When one undergoes Christian baptism it is important to understand why it is a requirement in the first place.

It isn't a requirement.

What does it mean? What is baptism and who can be baptized? Is it a complete immersion or just a sprinkling of water? What is required of a person afterwards?

The baptism that Jews undertook in Jesus' day was a first for them. They were born into a dedicated nation and did not require baptism into the faith. John the Baptist began the process as a means for repentant Jews to publicly demonstrate, by undergoing complete water immersion, that they had repented of their past sins and were ready to accept and follow their coming Messiah.

When Jesus came to the Jordan River to be baptized, John declined because he knew that Jesus had no sins from which to repent, but Jesus told him that this one time, was OK because Jesus' baptism represented something else. His immersion under the water was a symbolic "death" to his former life and being raised up to a new life of dedicated service to God in a new capacity. From that day onward until his death, Jesus lived the selfless life of a humble teacher. Jesus' followers were required to undergo John's baptism in preparation for accepting Jesus as Messiah...and once they had accepted him, they had to undergo another baptism "in Jesus name" to become "Christians".

When Gentiles came into the Christian arrangement, they did not have to undergo John's baptism because they were not under Jewish law, but were baptized as followers of Jesus Christ.

No, unless Jewish baptism includes being baptized in the name of the father, the son, and the Spirit.

Baptism is a public demonstration of one's commitment to living a Christian life based on the teachings of Jesus as God's representative on earth.

It is symbolic if you are of a 'nation', ie religious belief, that is already baptized. It is more than symbolic, if you converted, or came from non faith.

If one has undergone baptism under false pretenses then God would not have viewed it as valid to start with.

That is true, however it is not the baptism that is not valid, it is the fact of the false pretenses.

To be baptized as a follower of Jesus Christ requires commitment because it was not going to be an easy course. (John 15:18-21; Matthew 7:13-14) Genuine love of God and appreciation for the sacrifice made by his son on our behalf, is a vital part of our dedication.

To turn your back on that dedication and turn to living a life alienated from Christ will bring severe retribution from God.

Ecclesiastes 5:4-6..."When you vow a vow to God, do not delay paying it, for he has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you vow. 5 It is better that you should not vow than that you should vow and not pay. 6 Let not your mouth lead you into sin, and do not say before the messenger that it was a mistake. Why should God be angry at your voice and destroy the work of your hands?" (ESV)

Defectors and rebels have no future in God's plans.

..
I have no idea why you did not vote for necessary unbaptism, considering your comments.

So far, we have according to your comments
Church baptism is symbolic of the 'vow'. /hence symbolic.
Ok, that's fine
Church baptism was necessary for 'gentiles', because they were not jews.
Jewish baptism, isn't christian baptism, hence false

This leaves, the church baptism, is a symbolic representation of conversion, or new faith. Unnecessary, if you are already a believer, ie one of the 'nations', this means religious belief. And, 'means something', to the person choosing baptism. Hence baptism is an important personal choice, that could have a meaning more than symbolism, for the convert, or new believer.

Deeje · May 15, 2018

syncretic said:
It isn't a requirement.

Oh but it is, as per Jesus' instructions before he left this earth....

Matthew 28:19-20....."Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (NASB) (see also John 3:26-30; Acts 19:1-7)

syncretic said:
No, unless Jewish baptism includes being baptized in the name of the father, the son, and the Spirit.

As noted in Acts 19:1-7 Gentiles did not get baptized with John's baptism, but were required to be "baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus".

syncretic said:
It is symbolic if you are of a 'nation', ie religious belief, that is already baptized. It is more than symbolic, if you converted, or came from non faith.

There is no such thing as 'a nation already baptized'. Christian baptism is an individual choice. It means exactly the same for all....convert or unbeliever.

syncretic said:
That is true, however it is not the baptism that is not valid, it is the fact of the false pretenses.

Infant baptism for example is not valid. No infant can dedicate themselves to God. You have to choose to be baptized in full recognition of what it means. No one can do that for you.

syncretic said:
So far, we have according to your comments
Church baptism is symbolic of the 'vow'. /hence symbolic.
Ok, that's fine
Church baptism was necessary for 'gentiles', because they were not jews.
Jewish baptism, isn't christian baptism, hence false

Not sure what to make of that :shrug:

.....John's baptism was only for Jews. Gentiles had no need to apologize for breaking God's law because it never applied to them. They were required to undergo Christian baptism to show publicly that they were followers of Jesus Christ. Jews did too.

syncretic said:
This leaves, the church baptism, is a symbolic representation of conversion, or new faith. Unnecessary, if you are already a believer, ie one of the 'nations', this means religious belief, and 'means something', to the person choosing baptism. Hence baptism is an important personal choice, that could have a meaning more than symbolism, for the convert, or new believer.

That makes absolutely no sense.....

Desert Snake · May 15, 2018

Deeje said:
Oh but it is, as per Jesus' instructions before he left this earth....

Matthew 28:19-20....."Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (NASB) (see also John 3:26-30; Acts 19:1-7)

And I believe that Jesus meant 'nations', as He said. Not an other interpretation of that direct statement.

As noted in Acts 19:1-7 Gentiles did not get baptized with John's baptism, but were required to be "baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus".

This doesn't mean that the jewish baptism is or was a substitute for the christian baptism. You are also using the word jewish very broadly, here.

There is no such thing as 'a nation already baptized'. Christian baptism is an individual choice. It means exactly the same for all....convert or unbeliever.

Not according to Jesus. Jesus very plainly said 'nations'.

Infant baptism for example is not valid. No infant can dedicate themselves to God. You have to choose to be baptized in full recognition of what it means. No one can do that for you.

Not sure what to make of that .....John's baptism was only for Jews. Gentiles had no need to apologize for breaking God's law because it never applied to them. They were required to undergo Christian baptism to show publicly that they were followers of Jesus Christ. Jews did too.

Actually they weren't "required". That is a church idea that refutes the direct statement of Jesus.

That makes absolutely no sense.....

Sure it does, baptism is a personal choice that replicates the baptism of the 'nations', on an individual level.

Shadow Wolf · May 15, 2018

What's an unbaptism? Is renouncing Jehovah and speaking poorly of the Holy Ghost (Matthew 12:32) good enough? I was baptized, but I've never felt I had to do anything more than call it quits.

Shadow Wolf · May 15, 2018

Deeje said:
Defectors and rebels have no future in God's plans.

I assure you, the feeling is mutual.

Deeje · May 16, 2018

syncretic said:
And I believe that Jesus meant 'nations', as He said. Not an other interpretation of that direct statement.

Are you serious? How does one baptize a nation? What are nations made up of?

How do you teach a nation to be Christian? Tell me what nations would qualify?

Only individuals can be baptized. It requires a body of water and a desire to become a footstep follower of Christ.

That is a ridiculous interpretation of that scripture when the rest of the NT talks only of individuals being baptized.

syncretic said:
This doesn't mean that the jewish baptism is or was a substitute for the christian baptism. You are also using the word jewish very broadly, here.

Is that what I said? Can I clarify again....? John's baptism was only for Jews as a symbol of their repentance over breaking the Law of Moses. After they had accepted Jesus as Messiah, they then underwent another baptism as disciples of Christ.....with me so far? Two different baptisms OK?

Gentiles came into the Christian arrangement when Cornelius and his household were baptized. As a Gentile was never under God's law, there was no need for John's baptism and just as well because John was beheaded by King Herod before Jesus died. There was only one baptism for Gentiles.

syncretic said:
Not according to Jesus. Jesus very plainly said 'nations'.

That is a nonsense. You cannot baptize a nation. There is no such thing as a geographical "Christian" nation and never was.

syncretic said:
Actually they weren't "required". That is a church idea that refutes the direct statement of Jesus.

No, sorry, scripture proves you wrong. Christian baptism on an individual basis was the only one taught in the NT.

syncretic said:
baptism is a personal choice that replicates the baptism of the 'nations', on an individual level.

Show me a scripture that says this. I have never heard of nations being baptized.....because it is impossible...tell me how it it is accomplished (with scripture). Baptism is a physical act in front of witnesses.

Deeje · May 16, 2018

Shadow Wolf said:
I assure you, the feeling is mutual.

No need to tell me...God already knows.

Desert Snake · May 16, 2018

Deeje said:
That is a ridiculous interpretation of that scripture when the rest of the NT talks only of individuals being baptized.

This is Jesus Himself instructing this, I suppose that isn't very important to you.

That is a nonsense. You cannot baptize a nation. There is no such thing as a geographical "Christian" nation and never was.

Jesus instructs to baptize the nations. You want it to mean something else.

No, sorry, scripture proves you wrong. Christian baptism on an individual basis was the only one taught in the NT.

Incorrect, Jesus says to baptize the nations.

Show me a scripture that says this. I have never heard of nations being baptized.....because it is impossible...tell me how it it is accomplished (with scripture). Baptism is a physical act in front of witnesses.

Matthew 28:19
This is very clear, and the main statement regarding baptism, being from Jesus Himself

Perhaps provide a verse that instructs there must be witnesses to baptism.

Deeje · May 16, 2018

syncretic said:
Perhaps provide a verse that instructs there must be witnesses to baptism.

Matthew 3:5-6...."Then Jerusalem and all Ju·deʹa and all the country around the Jordan made their way out to him, 6 and people were baptized by him in the Jordan River, openly confessing their sins."

Acts 2:40-41...."And with many other words he gave a thorough witness and kept exhorting them, saying: “Get saved from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who gladly accepted his word were baptized, and on that day about 3,000 people were added."

Notice that it says "Jerusalem and all Judea" "made their way out" to John and "people" were baptised".
3,000 were baptized in one day.

Now perhaps you can tells us how it is possible to baptize nations?

Desert Snake · May 16, 2018

Deeje said:
Matthew 3:5-6...."Then Jerusalem and all Ju·deʹa and all the country around the Jordan made their way out to him, 6 and people were baptized by him in the Jordan River, openly confessing their sins."

Acts 2:40-41...."And with many other words he gave a thorough witness and kept exhorting them, saying: “Get saved from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who gladly accepted his word were baptized, and on that day about 3,000 people were added."

Notice that it says "Jerusalem and all Judea" "made their way out" to John and "people" were baptised".
3,000 were baptized in one day.

Now perhaps you can tells us how it is possible to baptize nations?

Baptism here is illustrative of, as I noted, actual conversion. This is replicating baptism on the individual level.

Someone who is a believer does not need to be baptized, because the real baptism, by Jesus, does not need, or is not instructed, by the church baptism. Your concept of baptism, means the church is taking on the role of Jesus..which cannot happen, and does not happen.

When the nation is baptized, the people become believers. Thus, why the baptism, by Jesus, can occur.

Is a formal unbaptism required when one leaves Christianity?

Is an unbaptism ceremony necessary for baptized Christians, when they leave the religion?

Yes, unbaptism is necessary for baptized christians when they leave the religion

No, it doesn't make any difference

Optimal, but not necessary

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