What is the salvation message the JW's espouse?

osgart said:

This is a very sincere religious , dare i say, debate.

Not only do i have to choose God. I have to find the right Bible if i were to believe that this is ultimate reality.

I wonder though the implications of getting it wrong, and going on my merry way to doom, when i thought i was saved.

I must confess in my youth i tried to be saved, but i did not detect God's presence.

There must be a source of conviction, where you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that what you have is the truth.

I have lived in a Christian family, father was a converted independent baptist, mom, a catholic.
My brother, is a baptist as well. And my nephew loves the kjv bible.

I honestly just wanted to be myself in it all and not get caught up in the whole affair. Mainly because i care about a lot of people who are not Christians i find it very hard to see the Christian Salvation as true.

Now at my current age i have a degenerative health condition, and i am really getting serious about the deep questions of what is true or not.

Click to expand...

Well, I suggest you just read any of the standard Bible versions and go directly to Jesus in prayer and seek answers and wisdom from Him, not an organization or a particular church.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. John 5:39

Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.Matthew 7:7-8

How did you try to be saved in your youth, if you care to share?

InChrist said:

Well, I suggest you just read any of the standard Bible versions and go directly to Jesus in prayer and seek answers and wisdom from Him, not an organization or a particular church.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. John 5:39

Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.Matthew 7:7-8

How did you try to be saved in your youth, if you care to share?

Click to expand...

My father brought home a kjv, and told us the salvation message. He would have bible studies, play recorded preaching tapes.

I just sat back in my room with tons of questions piling up in my mind.

I didnt know the whole story of the bible at that time. I just accepted jesus not knowing what any of it meant. Then the more i read, the more i disbelieved that i was looking at literal history.

And i looked at all the things i had to take literally, and the questions became overwhelming. So i relied on my own reasoning got frustrated and ran from it.

osgart said:

My father brought home a kjv, and told us the salvation message. He would have bible studies, play recorded preaching tapes.

I just sat back in my room with tons of questions piling up in my mind.

I didnt know the whole story of the bible at that time. I just accepted jesus not knowing what any of it meant. Then the more i read, the more i disbelieved that i was looking at literal history.

And i looked at all the things i had to take literally, and the questions became overwhelming. So i relied on my own reasoning got frustrated and ran from it.

Click to expand...

Oh, thanks for sharing your experience. The KJV is fine, but I think somewhat hard to read because of the Old English. I think trying to grasp and understand all the information in the Bible at once can be overwhelming. I remember a long time ago just reading the the book of John and focusing on the Person of Jesus. When I read the scriptures I pray for God to give me understanding. If something doesn't make sense I don't automatically believe it, but simply ask God about it and then wait for His timing to give me insight and reason to believe. I don't think God wants us to put reason aside. On the contrary, I think He designed us to use our reason while coming to Him with our questions and He loves us for it!

Deeje said:

People have no idea that the Christianity they practice is nothing close to what Jesus presented. They are not taught to research things for themselves, but just to turn up to church and be spoon fed a bunch of man made doctrines and to make sure they put their money in the box. Jesus will reject them. (Matthew 7:21-23)

The blasphemy is for the most part, unwitting, but if they are sincere they will want to know God and his Christ more intimately (John 17:3) and there is so much information online these days it isn't hard to do. I find that people are basically lazy...they want what Jesus is offering but they want to take the easy road to get there. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Click to expand...

Very good, Deeje! Nice thread.

Researching “steeples” is enlightening! And disgusting!

Segev Moran said:

What expression?

Click to expand...

Genesis 2:23...
"And man said, "This time, it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. This one shall be called ishah (woman) because this one was taken from ish (man)." כגוַיֹּ֘אמֶר֘ הָֽאָדָם֒ זֹ֣את הַפַּ֗עַם עֶ֚צֶם מֵֽעֲצָמַ֔י וּבָשָׂ֖ר מִבְּשָׂרִ֑י לְזֹאת֙ יִקָּרֵ֣א אִשָּׁ֔ה כִּ֥י מֵאִ֖ישׁ לֻֽקֳחָה־זֹּֽאת:

"This time" is an expression of Adam's relief that when God created his wife, she was at last 'bone of his 'bone and flesh of his flesh'. (Genesis 2:18-22) He had been given the task of naming all the animals and seeing that they all had their mates, he was mindful of the fact that he had no mate like himself. I believe that the creative days were very long periods of time allowing for the education that God gave to his human son before he took on the responsibility of a wife and family. Out of all the creatures that God made, he was the only one who needed that education.

I cant see how the second is the same as the first??
YOU will be like god...
where did he claim that he is like god? and if he told her she will be like god, it means she will not need to worship anyone

Click to expand...

On the contrary...humans are designed to worship...it is in their DNA. History attests to man's desire to serve what he perceives to be a higher power. So gaining the humans' worship was what satan wanted. Jehovah gave them the option to choose which god they would serve....and then allow them time to see if their choice was the right one.

In case humans did not like one presentation of 'god', satan would provide a range of gods for cater to every human taste. All worship that was given to these "gods" would go to him by default, for the simple reason, he was the only other god they could choose...he just masqueraded as whatever god they wanted him to be.

And where he tempted Jesus by offering him 'all the kingdoms of the world in exchange for one act of worship'.
As a test?

Click to expand...

Yes....and a very important one. God had a rebel spirit and an unknown number of angels who followed his lead, as well as the entire human race, held to ransom. The one whom God sent on the rescue mission to pay for their release, had to be a loyal and faithful servant, the only one he trusted to complete the mission and save mankind without abusing his free will.

In giving humanity the role of caretaker here on earth, Jehovah endowed them with his qualities, as well as the freedom of will to make necessary choices in fulfilling that role. They were to be his representatives on earth, so they had to have his attributes in order to care for the planet and its inhabitants, the way he would.

Free will was intended as a gift.....but the abuse of free will turned it into a curse. Humans were now at the mercy of other humans vying for power to dominate over others. Every form of misery we suffer at the hands of man is an abuse of free will.

He is the adversary in Genesis. What is an adversary? It is an opponent.
Where did you see this reference?

Click to expand...

The book of Job speaks about the adversary.....Strongs H7854
Genesis 1:1 (NASB)

"Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them. ווַיְהִ֣י הַיּ֔וֹם וַיָּבֹ֙אוּ֙ בְּנֵ֣י הָֽאֱלֹהִ֔ים לְהִתְיַצֵּ֖ב עַל־יְהֹוָ֑ה וַיָּב֥וֹא גַם־הַשָּׂטָ֖ן בְּתוֹכָֽם:

7The Lord said to the Adversary, "Where are you coming from?" And the Adversary answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth and from walking in it." זוַיֹּ֧אמֶר יְהֹוָ֛ה אֶל־הַשָּׂטָ֖ן מֵאַ֣יִן תָּבֹ֑א וַיַּ֨עַן הַשָּׂטָ֚ן אֶת־יְהֹוָה֙ וַיֹּאמַ֔ר מִשּׁ֣וּט בָּאָ֔רֶץ וּמֵֽהִתְהַלֵּ֖ךְ בָּֽהּ:"

Here the adversary enters right in among other "angels of God".

Yes, there was death penalty based on the bible. but still the concept of eye for an eye doesn't refer to it

Click to expand...

Deuteronomy 19: 14-15
"And those who remain shall listen and fear, and they shall no longer continue to commit any such evil thing among you. כוְהַנִּשְׁאָרִ֖ים יִשְׁמְע֣וּ וְיִרָ֑אוּ וְלֹֽא־יֹסִ֨פוּ לַֽעֲשׂ֜וֹת ע֗וֹד כַּדָּבָ֥ר הָרָ֛ע הַזֶּ֖ה בְּקִרְבֶּֽךָ:

21You shall not have pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. כאוְלֹ֥א תָח֖וֹס עֵינֶ֑ךָ נֶ֣פֶשׁ בְּנֶ֗פֶשׁ עַ֤יִן בְּעַ֨יִן֙ שֵׁ֣ן בְּשֵׁ֔ן יָ֥ד בְּיָ֖ד רֶ֥גֶל בְּרָֽגֶל:"

The principle here is equivalency. What Adam lost, only Christ could repay. A perfect life was lost and another perfect life was taken in repayment.

1 Corinthians 15:20-22..."But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive".

Yet they did eat from it... so is it free or not?

Click to expand...

It was free within the parameters set by God...they stepped out of those parameters, which is why there was a penalty. There was no penalty unless they disobeyed just one simple command. No one forced them to do that.

And freedom.

Click to expand...

And yes.. god indeed plan all the suffering and misery, how can he not?

Click to expand...

How can you say that when it wasn't God who planned for the devil to temp Adam and for him to fail?
Had they followed God's command, no evil would have befallen anyone. No one made the devil abuse his free will and no one forced Adam to either. They made their own choices for their own reasons....and they reaped what they sowed....unfortunately as it often happens, there are others who are caught in the fallout when bad decisions are made.

osgart said:

I must confess in my youth i tried to be saved, but i did not detect God's presence.

Click to expand...

I was raised as an Anglican with the KJV. I knew there was a God and I knew that the Bible was his instruction manual....but I never felt God's presence in church either. It all seemed so fake to me. The church seemed to ignore Jesus' teachings when it suited them. Going to war for example.....why was the church supporting bloodshed when Christ taught us to love our enemies? Why did church members argue about politics when Jesus taught us to be no part of this world? All I saw was hypocrisy. I left the church but I never left God. I went searching for him but he wasn't in the places I looked. A short time later...he found me.

osgart said:

There must be a source of conviction, where you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that what you have is the truth.

Click to expand...

I know what this feels like. And I found out how it happens.
At John 6:44, Jesus said..."No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him". (NASB)

This tells me that when we search for God, he is actually searching for us too. And when he finds an agreeable heart, he "draws" that person....its like an invitation to get to know him. (John 17:3)
He is not the god of Christendom......nothing like him in fact.

osgart said:

I have lived in a Christian family, father was a converted independent baptist, mom, a catholic.
My brother, is a baptist as well. And my nephew loves the kjv bible.

I honestly just wanted to be myself in it all and not get caught up in the whole affair. Mainly because i care about a lot of people who are not Christians i find it very hard to see the Christian Salvation as true.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately we don't get to call the shots with who God considers worthy of salvation. It is God himself who sets the standard and when you look at the thousands of "Christian" denominations there are...all claiming Jesus as their "Lord"....yet all teaching different things....one fact is inevitably true....they can't all be right....but in fact, they could all be wrong.

When Jesus comes to judge the world, what is the criteria that he uses to separate people as "sheep" or "goats"?
These are the only two categories of people at the time of the end. What did Jesus say about that?

Matthew 7:21-23:
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’" (NASB)

So, only those "doing the will of the Father" will be saved. It doesn't mean just calling yourself a Christian and then doing nothing to live up to that claim...it doesn't mean prophesying in Jesus' name...it doesn't mean casting out demons....or performing miracles in his name either...none of these things identify a true Christian.
We have to be "doing the will of the Father" and loving our brothers....otherwise we could be found guilty of practicing 'lawlessness'.(John 13:34-35; John 15:7-8)
How would we feel if we were among those whom Jesus rejects?

It is up to us to find out what the will of the father is...and do it.

osgart said:

Now at my current age i have a degenerative health condition, and i am really getting serious about the deep questions of what is true or not.

Click to expand...

None of us are getting any younger and ill health plagues many people today. It is comforting to know that there is a way to everlasting life in peace, good health and happiness on a cleansed earth free from the present strife. The majority of humans will never go to heaven because God never intended for any of us to go there when he put Adam on this earth....this was meant to be our permanent home.

Due to Adam's sin, God foreordained for a Kingdom with rulers and priests...Christ and 144,000 ones chosen for that role by God, not men.

"Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads....no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth....These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. (Revelation 14:1-4 Revelation 20:6)

This kingdom will restore all that Adam lost for his children. Ruling with Christ from heaven, these 'chosen ones' will bring redeemed humanity back to its original perfection, removing sin and death and restoring all the wonderful prospects that were before Adam and his wife. Satan's influence will be gone. (Revelation 20:1-3)

If we really want the truth, we have to be willing to put in the effort to dig for it.....it's all in the Bible.

Here is a publication that is designed to help you learn what the Bible says on various topics, including why we suffer, what happens at death, how to have a happy family life, and more. You might like to read it. Up to you.
Bible Study Book: What Does the Bible Teach Us?

There are answers to everything..... Compare and see...its an amazing journey.

osgart said:

So then thats what much of the Christianity of today does, blaspheme?

Click to expand...

Yes. And unfortunately, most also take part in killing their brothers during conflicts, supporting their respective national brotherhood above their spiritual brotherhood. Titus 1:16 in action....James 4:4, too.

Wouldn’t you agree, killing is definitely part of the world? Is that what Jesus wants?

Hey, Jesus founded Christianity...it’s his club. To be considered a member by him, we need to follow his rules. John 13:34-35 and Matthew 5:44 are two.

Unveiled Artist said:

I know this may be off subject; but, just questions of curiosity rather than discussion. In JW view:

Since Christianity is corrupted, why use the book in which where, in part, were written by those who believed in christ (christians) and chosen, distributed, and taught by the Catholic Church (before the split)?

Why use their book if they are corrupted?

Wouldn't it make more sense to use the Torah to which the laws given from moses come directly from god...as opposed to apostles testimonies that are about jesus and jesus words about the words of moses?


In other words, why use two middle men apostle->jesus->god, when you can go to god directly through the laws of Moses to which jesus often quoted?

When you quote scripture, it's still the compilation of and from the church. So, whatever you quote is in their bible and what they teach.

Coming from a non-trinitarian view.

Click to expand...

What an honest question! (I think Jehovah sees your good heart, Carlita)

First off, everything we find in the Greek Scriptures (NT) really doesn’t contradict anything in the Hebrew Scriptures (OT), except for some spurious texts, like the Comma Johanneum. But, they are recognized as spurious, ie., not in the originals. Understanding the ancient grammar used by the writers, actually enhances our understanding of both OT and NT. John 1:1-18 and Philippians 2:5-11 are great examples, of combining both grammar and context. Which in turn contributes to an appreciation of the OT.

Secondly, archeology keeps on digging, and occasionally unearths older and older Biblical manuscripts, and when compared to newer ones, there’s very little change!

The Dead Sea Scrolls are just one example. Compared to the Leningrad Codex written 1200 yrs. later, there was nothing found that would change the meaning. It reveals meticulous copying done by the scribes! The value they had for the Scriptures, is undeniable.

osgart said:

Phillipians 2:5-7. I have read two different Bibles, one contrary to the other about the equality of Jesus and The Father.

Click to expand...

I know... it’s confusing. But...
(@Unveiled Artist , you might find this interesting, too

Regarding vs.6....whereas most versions say ‘grasp’, and some say ‘cling to’, one even says ‘exploited’.....

the verb there in Greek is “harpagmon’, which means to “seize”, “grasp (at) with force”. Never does it mean ‘hold on to’, ie., something you already have, but give up...never. (That’s sorta the impression that saying ‘cling to’ gives, that it’s something you have, but then relinquish....that is not what the verb means!)

Saying “being in the form of God”, tells us that Jesus was a spirit, like the angels and God, before he became human. That’s what he gave up, his spirit form.....to be born as flesh.

Hope that makes sense. As vss. 8 & 9 continue, he “became obedient....God exalted him....and gave him a name.....” (If he was God, why be obedient? And how could God exalt Himself to the highest? Wouldn’t God already be? And “given a name”? Wouldn’t God take it himself?)
Context!

Best wishes!

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Hockeycowboy said:

What an honest question! (I think Jehovah sees your good heart, Carlita)

First off, everything we find in the Greek Scriptures (NT) really doesn’t contradict anything in the Hebrew Scriptures (OT), except for some spurious texts, like the Comma Johanneum. But, they are recognized as spurious, ie., not in the originals. Understanding the ancient grammar used by the writers, actually enhances our understanding of both OT and NT. John 1:1-18 and Philippians 2:5-11 are great examples, of combining both grammar and context. Which in turn contributes to an appreciation of the OT.

Secondly, archeology keeps on digging, and occasionally unearths older and older Biblical manuscripts, and when compared to newer ones, there’s very little change!

The Dead Sea Scrolls are just one example. Compared to the Leningrad Codex written 1200 yrs. later, there was nothing found that would change the meaning. It reveals meticulous copying done by the scribes! The value they had for the Scriptures, is undeniable.

Click to expand...

Do you see these findings first authorized by the Catholic Church or, if not, to who decided what manuscripts founded are from god or just another historical finding as with others from other religions?

Unveiled Artist said:

Thank you. I appreciate that.



Do you see these findings first authorized by the Catholic Church or, if not, to who decided what manuscripts founded are from god or just another historical finding as with others from other religions?

Click to expand...

Whoever was responsible for organizing the 66 books into the Bible canon, Jehovah was ultimately behind it. He was the one protecting His Word.
The fact that it’s suffered more attacks against it than any other book — even by its own supposed supporters, and it’s still become the #1 best seller....that’s testimony in itself of Jehovah God’s backing.

The Bible’s Fight to Live — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The following is an index of literature that highlights different aspects of the Bible...Look down the list at a topic that might interest you, and click on the link, I think you’ll enjoy it:

Bible — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Hockeycowboy said:

Whoever was responsible for organizing the 66 books into the Bible canon, Jehovah was ultimately behind it. He was the one protecting His Word.
The fact that it’s suffered more attacks against it than any other book — even by its own supposed supporters, and it’s still become the #1 best seller....that’s testimony in itself of Jehovah God’s backing.

The Bible’s Fight to Live — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The following is an index of literature that highlights different aspects of the Bible...Look down the list at a topic that might interest you, and click on the link, I think you’ll enjoy it:

Bible — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Click to expand...

Do you DARE? https://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512

If you do look at it does it mean the* God will think you are NOT DOING good to the least of the brothers of Jesus?

*I think I might mean that. .............................................................the WORD that instead of the.

Ok Ok Too short. Why not read about how it was impossible for Jehovah God to have protected the words of scripture and thus the meaning of scripture?

https://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512

Hockeycowboy said:

Whoever was responsible for organizing the 66 books into the Bible canon, Jehovah was ultimately behind it. He was the one protecting His Word.
The fact that it’s suffered more attacks against it than any other book — even by its own supposed supporters, and it’s still become the #1 best seller....that’s testimony in itself of Jehovah God’s backing.

The Bible’s Fight to Live — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The following is an index of literature that highlights different aspects of the Bible...Look down the list at a topic that might interest you, and click on the link, I think you’ll enjoy it:

Bible — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Click to expand...

Hmm. Above. That'll take awhile

I understand its the word god. If The Church actually decided whats inspired and whats not (as so I learned), from what you say, ideally god works through the Church. If it were just the Torah, I can kinda see it. I cant remember when, Romanesque time or something or other The Church added the Torah as to connect the NT to the OT to give it validity and continuity where, in judaism, there is none.

Since god works through The Church given the Church chose whats divine and whats not, (also), why is there a controntation with JW and Catholism (not Roman)?

Unveiled Artist said:

Hmm. Above. That'll take awhile

I understand its the word god. If The Church actually decided whats inspired and whats not (as so I learned), from what you say, ideally god works through the Church. If it were just the Torah, I can kinda see it. I cant remember when, Romanesque time or something or other The Church added the Torah as to connect the NT to the OT to give it validity and continuity where, in judaism, there is none.

Since god works through The Church given the Church chose whats divine and whats not, (also), why is there a controntation with JW and Catholism (not Roman)?

Click to expand...

I may not understand you, but maybe this will help you reason on it:

Nebuchadnezzar was a Babylonian ruler, ie., not a worshipper of Jehovah, yet Jehovah used him to accomplish His purpose.
The same with Ahura Mazda worshipper Cyrus the Great. Even the Devil, when you think about it....Jehovah’s purpose was to have Jesus “give his life a ransom in exchange for many”(Matthew 20:28).Yet what did Satan do? He helped Judas Iscariot to do it! Helping to fulfill God’s purpose!

If Jehovah wants something done, it’ll happen! No matter who does it.

Did I answer your question? Or misunderstand?

Hockeycowboy said:

If Jehovah wants something done, it’ll happen! No matter who does it.

Click to expand...

Really? 1 Timothy 2:4

I think. It is OK to believe 1 Timothy 2:4 and it is OK to believe that no matter what God wills, it will be done, but it is not OK to believe that BOTH are true in the case that you are a Jehovah's Witness and you believe the fulfillment of every Bible prophesy.

savagewind said:

Really? 1 Timothy 2:4

Click to expand...

So, what do you think that means? That Jehovah is impotent, or only that He won’t interfere with individuals’ free will, their ability to choose?

Hockeycowboy said:

So, what do you think that means? That Jehovah is impotent, or only that He won’t interfere with individuals’ free will, their ability to choose?

Click to expand...

There are not only two alternatives. YOU said that Jehovah will make it happen but that contradicts what is written that it is God's will that all be saved and come to the truth...... because you do not believe that all will be saved.

You are contradicting yourself.