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Eternal Hell, Scripture or ignorant theory?

bibleonly

Member
Jonah 3:4: And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

Look again at the language, God is coming in forty days to destroy you. God will come to judge you and bring you into destruction like Sodom.

It doesn’t say God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. There’s no messenger of God’s love in Jonah’s preaching.

This wicked city was ripe for damnation.

God’s word was revealed to their heart, that indeed they were wicked and deserved the wages of eternal damnation for their wickedness, which lead them to believe God. They heard the anger of God in Jonah’s preaching, so what was their reaction.
Verse 5:

So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth,

They saw themselves sinner, not worthy to even eat before God, they striped themselves of their own apparel (their own righteousness) and put on clothes that identified them with the apparel of sinners, sackcloth, clothes that were used to show contrite of heart. What show them these things, but the wrath of God’s anger on the sinner. They were about to be destroyed, symbolizing the eternal punishment that will destroy both body and soul in hell.

Verse 8:

And cry mightily to God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.

Pleading for God’s mercy to save them, they see themselves as sinner deserving to be destroyed, or else why would they be repenting of their evil ways.
There’s no argument that God loves sinner and hates the sin, (don’t worry cause all will eventually be spared). No this was a serious problem. In forty days they would be destroyed. God Himself would come as Judge to overthrow their city. What a frightful message this is.
Verse 9:
Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger that we perish not?


As a servant found guilty for disobeying the Kings command, and judgment being rendered, the servant can only plead for mercy, it is up to the King to either spare his life or carry out the verdict of the guilty.

God did show mercy and love on the city of Nineveh, because they heard the preaching of Jonah and believed God that they were sinner. God LOVED them so much that he sent Jonah to warn them from HIS wrath (eternal damnation) so that the terror of this truth would cause repentance and it did. If God didn’t love them there wouldn’t have been this warning of eternal destruction, thereby no repentance and no Mercy shown by God.

For example, no warning was given to Sodom. Only Lot was warned of the destruction of the city and escaped. God judgment was silent to Sodom, indicating that God never loved them, so there was no need to warn them. What happen was they never repented and perished; and are now awaiting the eternal consequence for their wickedness, which is far greater than physical destruction.
 

Truth101

Member
Bible only said:
Jonah 3:4: And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
Look again at the language, God is coming in forty days to destroy you. God will come to judge you and bring you into destruction like Sodom.
It doesn’t say God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life. There’s no messenger of God’s love in Jonah’s preaching.
The messages of the prophets were rarely messages of grace and mercy. To incorporate eternal damnation into these passages is even worse than incorporating it into passages that contain the word aionios simply because there is no mention of any eternal destruction of a spirit or soul. Their flesh was to be destroy as in all cases in the old testament as well in the New. Attempting to make their demise eternal is adding to the word of God. There is no mention of any eternal effects of their destruction whatsoever, not even in bad translation.


God’s word was revealed to their heart, that indeed they were wicked and deserved the wages of eternal damnation for their wickedness, which lead them to believe God. They heard the anger of God in Jonah’s preaching, so what was their reaction.
Verse 5:

So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth,

They saw themselves sinner, not worthy to even eat before God, they striped themselves of their own apparel (their own righteousness) and put on clothes that identified them with the apparel of sinners, sackcloth, clothes that were used to show contrite of heart. What show them these things, but the wrath of God’s anger on the sinner. They were about to be destroyed, symbolizing the eternal punishment that will destroy both body and soul in hell.
All of this is true except when you incorporate your false symbolism of eternal punishment that will destroy both body and soul in hell. It simply states their physical destruction. Repetitively inserting "eternal destruction" into passages that have no hint of it do not make it any more true.

Verse 8:

And cry mightily to God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.

Pleading for God’s mercy to save them, they see themselves as sinner deserving to be destroyed, or else why would they be repenting of their evil ways.
There’s no argument that God loves sinner and hates the sin, (don’t worry cause all will eventually be spared). No this was a serious problem. In forty days they would be destroyed. God Himself would come as Judge to overthrow their city. What a frightful message this is.
Yes it is very frightful and should be even without your doctrine of eternal destruction. You have also contradicted your own words. Here you state "theres no argument that GOD LOVES THE SINNER and hates the sin" (ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God), yet below you state that the reason Ninevah was spared was because God loved them but His slient judgment of Sodom was an intication that God did not love them. You say "theres no argument" and yet you just created an argument with yourself.
Verse 9:Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger that we perish not?

As a servant found guilty for disobeying the Kings command, and judgment being rendered, the servant can only plead for mercy, it is up to the King to either spare his life or carry out the verdict of the guilty.
And since God is the almighty and loves ALL of His creation He has planned and purposed a design to save every single creature whom He loves which is every single sinner. We are all guilty and to say you are exempt is blasphemy. For God is not a respecter of persons.
God did show mercy and love on the city of Nineveh, because they heard the preaching of Jonah and believed God that they were sinner. God LOVED them so much that he sent Jonah to warn them from HIS wrath (eternal damnation) so that the terror of this truth would cause repentance and it did. If God didn’t love them there wouldn’t have been this warning of eternal destruction, thereby no repentance and no Mercy shown by God.

For example, no warning was given to Sodom. Only Lot was warned of the destruction of the city and escaped. God judgment was silent to Sodom, indicating that God never loved them, so there was no need to warn them. What happen was they never repented and perished; and are now awaiting the eternal consequence for their wickedness, which is far greater than physical destruction.
You do not even know what side you are on when you yourself decide for God who should or should not be spared. You decide who God loves and who He doesnt. You admit that God loves the sinner and hates the sin, yet you contradict that fact with your own decision that God did not love Sodom. You also state there would not have been "this warning of eternal destruction". Again you incorporate you own words into a text that is clearly void of any such warning.

God Bless, Dave
 

bibleonly

Member
truth101 say’…The messages of the prophets were rarely messages of grace and mercy.

Throughout the Bible there are countless messages of the prophets preaching both of grace and of judgment. But you have not preach the whole counsel of God. Acts 20:27

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
In which you have miserably failed to be a faithful watchman, warning people of the Terror of the LORD and continue to preach your muddy gospel of no eternal retribution
The whole counsel of God is both the love of God and the judgment of God.

2Cor. 5:11
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

You are like the Pharisees, in their hypocritical practices, they left out the Judgment of God and only spoke of how the were children of God because they were of the seed of Abraham.
Matt. 23:23
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

You false gospel is the same as these hypocrites, that Christ himself proclaim that will be cast into the lake of fire. Your men pleasing gospel carries no weight, it will save no one. Just like the Pharisee’s you are a blinded guided leading them into the pit of eternal damnation.
 

bibleonly

Member
truth101said…All of this is true except when you incorporate your false symbolism of eternal punishment that will destroy both body and soul in hell. It simply states their physical destruction. Repetitively inserting "eternal destruction" into passages that have no hint of it do not make it any more true.
You can’t see the Truth because you are carnal, your carnal mind only see the physical nature of thing, hence you are carnal.
The gospel is spiritual and we are to compare the spiritual things with spiritual. 1Cor.2:12
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Your gospel pleases man (Atheists and such that oppose themselves against God), you speak with the wisdom which man’s wisdom teaches. Your gospel is of a carnal nature, you only have physical understanding of thing yor are looking for the kingdom on heaven to appear physically, just like the Pharisees, that want the kingdom to appear physically before them why because like you they had no faith.
Heb. 11:1
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For you walk by sight and not faith.
Cor. 5:7
7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight)

.
I look for a spiritual kingdom, eternal in the heavens. 2Cor. 5:1
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
 

bibleonly

Member
Pleading for God’s mercy to save them, they see themselves as sinner deserving to be destroyed, or else why would they be repenting of their evil ways.
There’s no argument that God loves sinner and hates the sin, (don’t worry cause all will eventually be spared).
No this was a serious problem. In forty days they would be destroyed. God Himself would come as Judge to overthrow their city. What a frightful message this is.


truth101said,…Here you state "theres no argument that GOD LOVES THE SINNER and hates the sin"
Yes it is very frightful and should be even without your doctrine of eternal destruction. You have also contradicted your own words. Here you state "theres no argument that GOD LOVES THE SINNER and hates the sin" (ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God),

There’s no contradiction because I don’t believe God loves the children of the devil.

truth101said,…yet below you state that the reason Ninevah was spared was because God loved them but His slient judgment of Sodom was an intication that God did not love them.
That still holds true.

truth101said,…You say "theres no argument" and yet you just created an argument with yourself.

No argument for those that say “God loves the sinner, but hates the sin”, (don’t worry cause all will eventually be spared.)

These are the people that have no argument.



I didn’t say, that I believe the statement that, “God loves the sinner and hates the sin” but to those that hold this position. They can’t argue that position, because if this is what is suppose to be preach then the city wouldn’t have a cause for concern and there wouldn’t be any repentance.


If Jonah, preached that God loves the sinner and hates the sin, then they would not have repented of their evil way.

In other words you can’t use the argument that God loves sinners but hates the sin. Because God hates the wicked, (sinner) and hates the sin. Psalms 7:11
11 …God is angry with the wicked every day.

Jonah didn’t come with the message that God loves the sinner and hates the sin. NO, Jonah preach as God commanded, these words were from the mouth of God, not Jonah as you imagined in your carnal mind.

God is the one pronouncing Judgment on this city. Jonah, fear for his life, entering into a foreign kingdom and declaring, Thus saith the LORD, in forty days you will be destroyed.

Jonah didn’t preach your carnal gospel that God loves the sinner and hates the sin, (don’t worry cause all will eventually be spared). No Jonah was faithful to God’s word even through it may mean that men may come under the eternal wrath of God.
Jonah 3:8
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

It’s up to God to exercise mercy on whom he wills and hardens whom he wills. Rom. 9:16
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
With your carnal gospel, you have pronounced mercy on whom you will and that is everyone, not allowing God to exercise His compassion on whom He will have compassion.
Rom. 9:15
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


Your carnal gospel if preached in Nineveh, would have cause no repentance. Your gospel would have not created any urgency of the people.

Instead of fasting, your gospel would have created feasting. Luke 17:28
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
This is your carnal gospel, feeding the flesh, causing no repentance.
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
The result of your carnal gospel is eternal destruction in which you fear, and hide behind doctrine of devils, that believe the lie of their father the devil that said, you shall not surely die.





Your carnal gospel would have been well received, nothing to fear, because eventually you all be save.

What a far cry from the message that God told Jonah to preach!
 

Truth101

Member
bibleonly said:
truth101 say’…The messages of the prophets were rarely messages of grace and mercy.

Throughout the Bible there are countless messages of the prophets preaching both of grace and of judgment. But you have not preach the whole counsel of God. Acts 20:27

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
In which you have miserably failed to be a faithful watchman, warning people of the Terror of the LORD and continue to preach your muddy gospel of no eternal retribution
The whole counsel of God is both the love of God and the judgment of God.

2Cor. 5:11
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

You are like the Pharisees, in their hypocritical practices, they left out the Judgment of God and only spoke of how the were children of God because they were of the seed of Abraham.
Matt. 23:23
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

You false gospel is the same as these hypocrites, that Christ himself proclaim that will be cast into the lake of fire. Your men pleasing gospel carries no weight, it will save no one. Just like the Pharisee’s you are a blinded guided leading them into the pit of eternal damnation.
You lie and decieve yourself, I have not ommitted the terorors of the Lord.
 

bibleonly

Member
The first chapter of Jonah is a glorious illustration of the doctrine of substitution.

One man perishing in order to save the whole nation.

Our Master in order to give credibility to this incredible book, which is filled with miracle after miracle, which are all pointing to the miracle of His saving grace, directly links Jonah's experience to His great sacrifice for those he came to save.

Matt 12:42
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Do not miss this. Do not stumble at the stumbling stone as so many do, who will not drink the water of life "Jesus Christ" from the rock of redemptive history in the scriptures.

Jonah stands as a clear type of Christ in several ways.

His name means dove or pigeon.

It was the sacrifice of a poor Jew who could not afford to bring a lamb to the priest to atone for his sin. Lev 5:7
7 And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering.

This sacrifice points to Jesus Christ the great sacrifice of the poor who could not bring anything to the table of justice for satisfaction of the debt that was required namely, the second death, eternal damnation. 2cor 8:9
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

(2) Jonah was born in the regions of Galilee as our Savior.
Gath Hepher was a town in Naphtali, which in turn was in the region of Galilee.

The Pharisee's thinking they knew the scriptures confidently asserted that no prophet arose out of Galilee. John 7:52.
52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.

They missed the only prophet to come out of Galilee, just like the theology of truth101 and most of Christendom today, they miss the prophet which came out of Galilee.

truth101 said,…Jonah here is a perfect example of those who have erected this idol of the heart "eternal torment" for those who cannot discern the truth that Christ died for them.

truth101, makes out Jonah, in which you’ll see is a magnificent type of Christ.

Because truth101 errs in not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God, he has concluded falsely that Jonah had an idolatrous heart.

What an ignorant interpretation of the life of Jonah, who is foreshadowing the Savior as he suffers the eternal condemnation of God for the sins of His people, in which the scriptures points out.
 

bibleonly

Member
The ship of mariners which Jonah took to flee from the presence of the LORD, represents not the world, but the elect of God.

It is for them that Christ suffered the deeps of the eternal wrath of the Law. Jonah 1:4
4 But the LORD sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken.

The Holy Ghost in order to tie this historical event to the redemption of believers in Christ, record for us in Matthew's gospel such a striking parallel with Christ and his disciples.

One would have to be ignorant, blind or rebellious of the account not to see the intention of our Master to show himself to be the greater and antitype of Jonah to come.
Matt 8:24-27
24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.
25
And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.
26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith?
Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!


As the disciples of our LORD, so these mariners were made to see the peril that their lives were in.

This trouble sent by divine providence drove them to seek Jonah.

Thus acquainting themselves with him they learn about the true and the living God, and the way of salvation through the substitutionary death of another. Jonah 1:11
11 Then said they unto him, What shall we do unto thee, that the sea may be calm unto us? for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous.
12 And he said unto them, Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you.


Here is your substitution.
Here is the gospel!
Here is the only way of salvation for sinners! Isa 53:5
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Their response is typical of self-righteous men and women, who are not yet convinced of their bankrupt state spiritually. Jonah 1:13

.
13 Nevertheless the men rowed hard to bring it to the land; but they could not: for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous against them.

It is foolishness to the carnal mind to think that their eternal safety must come through the eternal death of another, while they strive, work and toil in order to take part in salvation.

truth101, said:.... All through scripture we are told that it is not of ourselves one litle bit

This is correct, we are told all through scripture that we can’t pay for our sins, which is the Wages for sin, (eternal damnation). Eph.2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


truth101, said:.... It is in our obedience that we are santified.
Then with his next breath he says that it is his obedience that sanctifies him.
James 1:8
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
He is still wavering and is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and toss.
 

bibleonly

Member
When God has convinced the sinner that safety lies in believing, not doing, not striving, not toiling against the tides and winds of sin and the flesh; they, by the miracle of faith, cast themselves upon the gracious commandment to believe on him whom he has sent, and find rest to their souls. Jonah 1:15
15 So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.

Truth101 said,…they insist you must first believe or you will suffer the "eternal" consequenses.

The result of believing, which is the obedience of faith, commanded to all, is a saving knowledge and commitment to the true and living God. Rom.16:25
25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


This truth, the Obedience of Faith is not of works but of faith. Eph.2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Jonah 1:16
16 Then the men feared the LORD exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice unto the LORD, and made vows.

What did these men fear? A great tempest in the sea.

The same thing Noah feared, to come under the fierce billows of God’s eternal Wrath.
Heb. 11:7
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Has God saved you thus?
Jonah 1:17
17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Let the entire world know that the death of Christ was no accident.

It was no tragedy or martyrdom as men suppose, but the act of a Sovereign God who was fully in control of every event in the world, from the conception of Christ's office as the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, to the fall of man, to the cross of Calvary where the Son of God appeared bringing light and immortality to light through the gospel.
Acts 2:23
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

May God help you to see my LORD Jesus Christ coming in the volume of the book, it is written of him! Psalm 40:7 7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me.
 

Truth101

Member
Bibleonly said:
Matt 12:42
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.Do not miss this. Do not stumble at the stumbling stone as so many do, who will not drink the water of life "Jesus Christ" from the rock of redemptive history in the scriptures.
Jonah stands as a clear type of Christ in several ways.
I agree that Jonah typified Christ in a few ways but in other ways he sinned in his heart when He wished them to be destroyed and when God spared them he was angry.
Bibleonly said:
truth101, makes out Jonah, in which you’ll see is a magnificent type of Christ.Because truth101 errs in not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God, he has concluded falsely that Jonah had an idolatrous heart.
What an ignorant interpretation of the life of Jonah, who is foreshadowing the Savior as he suffers the eternal condemnation of God for the sins of His people, in which the scriptures points out.
Jonah was not perfect as was Christ (as you claim). He sinned in his LACK OF FAITH that God would spare them. How do you consider this to be acceptable? Listen to Gods words….
Jon 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; andalso much cattle?
God had repented of His threat to destroy all of the ninevites. Now they received this knowledge by the grace of God because of His mercies. God spared them in many ways, He could have left them in there ignorance of the truth and killed them all but first He sends Jonah to preach and then He opens up their hearts to receive and repent, and then He forgives them. He was also concerned over how many people he would have to destroy. How many more will be bound for the lake of fire than this? I am not saying they will not have their part in the lake but it will not be their final destruction. It does not lastforever because God will use the lake to purify and correct all. You make God out to be
more unjust than any human who has ever lived.
You say man has no freewill to choose….the bible agrees.
You say that God only loves some and only saves them….the bible disagrees.
You say God makes these vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor….The bible agrees.
You say the vessels of honor are loved by God….The bible agrees.
You say the vessels of dishonor are not loved by God….The bible disagrees.
You say God loves the sinner but hates the sin….The bible agrees.
You say God will eternally torment all those who were created vessels of dishonor regardless of God never giving them a chance.
God never gives them ears to hear
God never gives them eyes to see
God never gives them any understanding whatsoever.
God creates them wicked and leaves them wicked and has no intentions of saving them whatsoever.
Not only does He not want to save them (according to your doctrine) but He will have pleasure in sending them to be tormented in literal flames of fire to burn their “flesh” for all eternity without mercy and without any pity or love from a so called God “who is love”. Once they have been tormented for 10 billion years they have not shortened their torment by one drop of blood.
What kind of god is this you serve? This is truly not the God of the bible. You say I have left out the weightier matters but I have left out none. Let us look at all you fail to see.
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Again… Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Christ was perfect as His father in heaven is perfect and we are to be Like Christ who is the very image of the Father. We are aware of the terrors of the Lord and they do not need to be exaggerated to have an effect. We are to be perfect EVEN AS OUR FATHER IS. These words above typify the Character of God (not yours).
God Bless, Dave
 

bibleonly

Member
truth101 said,…You say God loves the sinner but hates the sin….The bible agrees

I don’t agree with this statement!

Read again:


Pleading for God’s mercy to save them, they see themselves as sinner deserving to be destroyed, or else why would they be repenting of their evil ways.
There’s no argument that God loves sinner and hates the sin, (don’t worry cause all will eventually be spared).

No this was a serious problem. In forty days they would be destroyed. God Himself would come as Judge to overthrow their city. What a frightful message this is.


truth101said,…Here you state "theres no argument that GOD LOVES THE SINNER and hates the sin"
Yes it is very frightful and should be even without your doctrine of eternal destruction. You have also contradicted your own words. Here you state "theres no argument that GOD LOVES THE SINNER and hates the sin" (ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God),

There’s no contradiction because I don’t believe God loves the children of the devil.

truth101said,…yet below you state that the reason Ninevah was spared was because God loved them but His slient judgment of Sodom was an intication that God did not love them.
That still holds true.

truth101said,…You say "theres no argument" and yet you just created an argument with yourself.

No argument for those that say “God loves the sinner, but hates the sin”, (don’t worry cause all will eventually be spared.)

These are the people that have no argument.



I didn’t say, that I believe the statement that, “God loves the sinner and hates the sin” but to those that hold this position. They can’t argue that position, because if this is what is suppose to be preach then the city wouldn’t have a cause for concern and there wouldn’t be any repentance.


If Jonah, preached that God loves the sinner and hates the sin, then they would not have repented of their evil way.

In other words you can’t use the argument that God loves sinners but hates the sin. Because God hates the wicked, (sinner) and hates the sin. Psalms 7:11
11 …God is angry with the wicked every day.

Jonah didn’t come with the message that God loves the sinner and hates the sin. NO, Jonah preach as God commanded, these words were from the mouth of God, not Jonah as you imagined in your carnal mind.

God is the one pronouncing Judgment on this city. Jonah, fear for his life, entering into a foreign kingdom and declaring, Thus saith the LORD, in forty days you will be destroyed.

Jonah didn’t preach your carnal gospel that God loves the sinner and hates the sin, (don’t worry cause all will eventually be spared). No Jonah was faithful to God’s word even through it may mean that men may come under the eternal wrath of God
 

Truth101

Member
So because God is angry with the sinner always, somehow allows you to, once again, add to the word of God by saying He hates them. Anger and hate are 2 seperate things. My Child makes me angry on many occasions but the thought of hating him never crosses my mind.
"God so LOVED THE WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son".
When the bible speaks of the world I take it to mean exactly that and no less.
"Everymans work shall be tried of what sort it is, If any mans work be burned he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved."
When the bible speaks of everyman, I take it to mean exactly that and no less. When the bible speaks of "anyman", I take this to mean exactly that "anyman" who has ever lived.
When the bible says "AS in Adam, so also in Christ". That all that resulted from the fall of Adam will be eventually undone through Christ.
When the bible says...
Rom 8:20 For the creature (all mankind, as contrasted in Rom 8:23.)was made subject to vanity ( as you agree), not willingly,(as you agree) but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,(as you agree)
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered (you do not agree) from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For someone who has given themselves the name "Bibleonly" sure doesn't like to retain the knowledge given in the bible. You prefer to twist the scriptures so out of proportion you yourself either cannot or will not choose to believe the truth written in the pages.
Your doctrine of eternal torment is one of your own mind along with most of Christendom. This is why I call it an idol of the heart. You refuse and probably will never let it go. That is until god cleanses you of this blasphemous teaching of His holy name.
God Bless, Dave

 

bibleonly

Member
truth101said..Your doctrine of eternal torment is one of your own mind along with most of Christendom. This is why I call it an idol of the heart. You refuse and probably will never let it go. That is until god cleanses you of this blasphemous teaching of His holy name.

If according to your lie, God cleanses those that are blasphemous, There's nothing to worry about!

You have strengthen the hands of the wicked to continue in their wicked ways.

With your muddy water gospel of universal atonement!



Ezek. 13:33
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
 

Truth101

Member
bibleonly said:
truth101said..Your doctrine of eternal torment is one of your own mind along with most of Christendom. This is why I call it an idol of the heart. You refuse and probably will never let it go. That is until god cleanses you of this blasphemous teaching of His holy name.

If according to your lie, God cleanses those that are blasphemous, There's nothing to worry about!

You have strengthen the hands of the wicked to continue in their wicked ways.

With your muddy water gospel of universal atonement!



Ezek. 13:33
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
Your inability to understand that God's wrath is still something to be feared even though it will not continue for eternity leads you to see everything in scripture with this frame of mind. It is a carnal understanding and nothing more. If the punishment doesn't last forever you believe its not good enough. The terrors of the Lord are to be fear and I strengthen not, the hands of the wicked. Their day in judgment and punishment will come but it will also end at some point as well. You continue to return to the old covenant for wisdom of things that were not revealed to that age. The New covanent is one of love while the old is one of wrath. God used the old covanent to reveal his wrath against the ungodly in physical form. He has revealed His love through the New as well as the truth that all will be judged sentenced and corrected in the end. I myself still do not wish to be sentenced to the wrath of God. The fact that it is not eternal does not cause me to fear any less. It causes me to understand the heart of God and His love for His creation. With you, hate is all you see. I see that Jesus is triumphent in all His works and the Father will have all come to the knowledge of the truth and repent wether in this age or in the next or through the fire. This is the whole purpose of the fire that is much the same as the fire that the elect experience here on earth in their flesh. That is why we are told that the blasphemy of the holy spirit will not be forgiven in this "aion" or the next "aion".
No one should ever want or choose to experience the wrath of God no matter how long it will last. Therefore You limit Gods ability to draw all man to himself without extending their torment from age or ages to eternity. It is you who have created a muddy image of God and His will to save that which was lost. You make His omniscience to be less than that of an earthly human man with no hope.

God Bless, dave
 

bibleonly

Member
truth101 said…So because God is angry with the sinner always, somehow allows you to, once again, add to the word of God by saying He hates them. Anger and hate are 2 seperate things.

Psalms 11:5
5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

God does hate the wicked!

Plain as Day!

 
Truth101 said:
"God so LOVED THE WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son".
When the bible speaks of the world I take it to mean exactly that and no less.
"Everymans work shall be tried of what sort it is, If any mans work be burned he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved."
When the bible speaks of everyman, I take it to mean exactly that and no less. When the bible speaks of "anyman", I take this to mean exactly that "anyman" who has ever lived.
When the bible says "AS in Adam, so also in Christ". That all that resulted from the fall of Adam will be eventually undone through Christ.

So in other words, you're saying that God will force Himself onto all people whether they want Him or choose Him or not? How can you believe that both Mother Teresa and Hitler will gain the same reward of salvation in heaven?

FGS
 

Truth101

Member
Bibleonly said:
truth101 said…So because God is angry with the sinner always, somehow allows you to, once again, add to the word of God by saying He hates them. Anger and hate are 2 seperate things.

Psalms 11:5

5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

God does hate the wicked!

Plain as Day!
This is a relative statement from David. It is not the man himself that God hates it is the abominations of the person which God hates. In relation to Davids perception God hates the wicked. He hates wickedness.

Deu 12:31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
Deu 16:22 Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.
Job 36:5 Behold, God is mighty, and despiseth not any: he is mighty in strength and wisdom.
1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his Holy Spirit.
We are to be conformed to the very image of Christ who is also the very image of His father. If we are not to despise any man it is because we are to become as Christ is.
God despiseth no man and we are to be like Him. We are to love our enemy as God loves His enemies. We are to do good to those who hate us just as God has, is, and will do good to those who hate Him. They will be judged and punished according to their works but they shall be saved because Christ gave his life as a ransom for the world not just some. Few are rewarded and many are punished without reward but all will be in Christ as God the Father gives unto Christ.

In conclusion, You have taken a relative point of view from scripture and made it into an absolute declaration of God. The scriptures I have given do not cancel out the scripture you gave, they merely give light to the fact that it is a relative statement.
Just as "choose today whom you will serve" in contrast to "you do not choose me, but I have chosen you", and "It is not in man that walketh to direct his own steps". We do not have the ability to choose either way. It is all by the grace of God. Therefore "choose today whom you will serve is a relative point of view. Because we are in a reality where we believe we make choices freely is just a relative truth. The absolute truth is that we do not choose Him, He first chooses us and draws us to Him.
Now that is plain as day!!!

God bless, Dave

 

Truth101

Member
FerventGodSeeker said:
So in other words, you're saying that God will force Himself onto all people whether they want Him or choose Him or not? How can you believe that both Mother Teresa and Hitler will gain the same reward of salvation in heaven?

FGS

First of all, It is scripture I have quoted and believe so your problem is not with what I believe but more with the scripture I have quoted. These are the words in scripture. Concerning God forcing Himself on us, you speak as though this is a bad thing. I'm glad He forces Himself on me. If He didn't I would not have the hope I have or the faith I have. I would not have recieved the truth. How can you as a Christian be upset that theres the possibility that God might force Himself on man? Is it because you feel God is stealing something from you? (possibly your strong delusion of freewill?).
Second of all, I am sure by your statement you have no idea what and where heaven is. You ask how I can believe both mother Teresa and Hitler will gain the same reward of salvation in heaven, well I do not believe they recieve the same reward in heaven. Allow scripture to explain...
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss (loss of reward): but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
If you look closely you will see (not that I am able to judge) that Mother Teresa may recieve a reward since her works do follow her but from what we know of Hitlers life he may not have a reward.
He will suffer loss of reward but He will be saved as so BY FIRE (punishment and correction). I don't know how many fiery judgments you know of but there is only one that I know of and it follows the great WHITE (not black) throne judgment.
Next think about the demon possessed man in front of Christ (I have mentioned numerous times in previous posts). He was wicked and full of evil. He was naked and insane. Just being in the presence of Christ this wickedness knew it had to leave this man. The demons were cast out of the man into the swine and they drowned in a LAKE (see this?). Then the man himself was left kneeling at the feat of Jesus fully clothed, in his right mind and completely made whole. After all this He praised God.
Do you see the symbolic message here? Now compare this with the scripture I have just given you above. If God hates the wicked as Bibleonly insists than God has a funny way of showing His hate. This man praised God for healing him and making him whole. Do you think this man was upset that God interfered with his free choice to be wicked? Do you still see a problem with God forcing Himself onto all people? I speak as a fool.

God Bless, Dave
 
Truth101 said:
First of all, It is scripture I have quoted and believe so your problem is not with what I believe but more with the scripture I have quoted. These are the words in scripture.
It is your particularly odd interpretation of the quoted Scriptures that I have a problem with, not the Scriptures themselves. Orthodox, mainstream Christians have had absolutely no problem with these verses for 2,000 years, so please don't pretend like we have ignored them. It is sadly you who ignores blatantly obvious Scriptures and the teachings of the Church for 2,000 years with your innovative universalism:
"Then He (Jesus) will say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.' " Matt. 26:41, 46
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," 2 Thess. 1:9
"And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Rev. 14:11
While these verses are literally unsurmountable for your theory that punishment is only temporal, I'm also interested as to how you interpret verses such as this:
"For many are called, but few are chosen." Matt. 22:14 If only a few are chosen, and this is the reason that some are cast into "outer darkness" (verse 13), how can you possibly believe that all are elected to salvation in heaven?

Concerning God forcing Himself on us, you speak as though this is a bad thing.
Yes, it is a bad thing for us to be mindless controlled robots. In saying this, that we have no will of our own to choose God, then you are saying that we have no cooperation in our own salvation; we're simply puppets. God desires for us to love Him and worship Him in spirit and in truth. How is it love when we are simply programmed to do exactly what He wants? This is like programming a toy to say, "I love you" over and over again....is it love? Of course not. In making us mindless robots as God does in your mind, His desire for us to love and worship Him will never be fulfilled, and God is caught in an eternal catch-22.

I'm glad He forces Himself on me. If He didn't I would not have the hope I have or the faith I have. I would not have recieved the truth. How can you as a Christian be upset that theres the possibility that God might force Himself on man? Is it because you feel God is stealing something from you? (possibly your strong delusion of freewill?).
Or your strong delusion that we're all robots in a big game God is playing?

Second of all, I am sure by your statement you have no idea what and where heaven is.
LOL. And you do? Does anyone know exactly where heaven is? Please, plot it for me on a map :rolleyes:

You ask how I can believe both mother Teresa and Hitler will gain the same reward of salvation in heaven, well I do not believe they recieve the same reward in heaven.
Sure you do, you believe they will both gain eternal bliss of salvation in heaven.

Allow scripture to explain...
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, heshallsufferloss (loss of reward): but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
If you look closely you will see (not that I am able to judge) that Mother Teresa may recieve a reward since her works do follow her but from what we know of Hitlers life he may not have a reward.
In the Catholic view, fwiw, these verses speak of Purgatory, the cleansing of the elect prior to entrance into heaven. They have nothing to do with those who will receive everlasting punishment (as I showed you earlier).
He will suffer loss of reward but He will be saved as so BY FIRE (punishment and correction). I don't know how many fiery judgments you know of but there is only one that I know of and it follows the great WHITE (not black) throne judgment.
The "fiery judgement" I referred to in Matthew 25 clearly indicates that some will receive ETERNAL (not temporary) punishment.
Next think about the demon possessed man in front of Christ (I have mentioned numerous times in previous posts). He was wicked and full of evil. He was naked and insane. Just being in the presence of Christ this wickedness knew it had to leave this man. The demons were cast out of the man into the swine and they drowned in a LAKE (see this?). Then the man himself was left kneeling at the feat of Jesus fully clothed, in his right mind and completely made whole. After all this He praised God.
Do you see the symbolic message here?
Yes, I do. God has the ABILITY to heal people. That does not mean that He DOES heal all people. God offers us the gift of eternal life, but logically we must accept the gift as well. If someone gives you a present for your birthday and you throw it away, obviously it does you no good, you no longer possess it. Just because God offers you salvation and healing does not mean you automatically receive it, you must accept it. If you don't, then you receive an eternal punishment for disobedience instead of an eternal reward for obedience.
Now compare this with the scripture I have just given you above. If God hates the wicked as Bibleonly insists than God has a funny way of showing His hate. This man praised God for healing him and making him whole. Do you think this man was upset that God interfered with his free choice to be wicked? Do you still see a problem with God forcing Himself onto all people? I speak as a fool.
First of all, the passage you mention never states that Christ or God hated that man, so that issue is irrelevant to the passage. I don't think that God interfered with anyone's free choice in that instance. As you noted, the demons begged to be released from the man. Christ obliged their request.

FerventGodSeeker
 
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