What is the salvation message the JW's espouse?

Samantha Rinne · May 12, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
Since Christianity is corrupted, why use the book in which where, in part, were written by those who believed in christ (christians) and chosen, distributed, and taught by the Catholic Church (before the split)?

Why use their book if they are corrupted?

Wouldn't it make more sense to use the Torah to which the laws given from moses come directly from god...as opposed to apostles testimonies that are about jesus and jesus words about the words of moses?

In other words, why use two middle men apostle->jesus->god, when you can go to god directly through the laws of Moses to which jesus often quoted?

When you quote scripture, it's still the compilation of and from the church. So, whatever you quote is in their bible and what they teach.

Coming from a non-trinitarian view.

Let's stop you there.

Isn't the Bible Corrupted?

If one believes the Bible has been corrupted, he/she must answer the question, "When was it corrupted- before Muhammad, or after?"

If one answers that the Bible was corrupted after Muhammad, then he must answer the question, "How can this be, since we have ancient manuscripts of the Bible from well before the time of Muhammad?"

If one believes the Bible has been corrupted, he must also answer the question, "How can this be, since the Word of God by its very nature is eternal and not capable of corruption?"

That's just for Islam. This below is for atheism.

Isn't the Bible corrupt and untrustworthy?

So, tell me, how can you start off with the assertion "the bible is corrupted" as if it's an unquestioned fact.

I assume that you basis for this assumption is the assertion that the Jews were monotheists and suddenly we have this Trinity thing. So let's explain it out for you.

Christians are still monotheists. The Trinity is not three gods. It's one God.

2000px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg.png

The Messiah was mentioned in Hebrew scriptures. It was the one God was to send for our salvation.
God the Father, the Creator was mentioned at the start.
Okay, that's two but what about the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit in the Old Testament - Thomas Nelson Bibles

Several times, actually. This didn't come out of whole cloth. It was something that came from Judaism. Where, then, is this corruption you speak of?

InChrist · May 12, 2018

Deeje said:
OK...lets take the passage in context....and allow scripture to explain scripture.

Here is that whole passage from 3 different translation.....which one(s) agrees with the rest of the Bible?

NASB..."Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

NIV..."In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

KJV....." Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

What does it say in the Greek Interlinear?

MOUNCE INTERLINEAR "...although he was hyparchō in en the form morphē of God theos, did hēgeomai not ou regard hēgeomai equality isos with God theos a thing to be eimi grasped harpagmos"

Which ones agree with the Greek translation? The NSAB would get my vote.

"Existing in the form of God" means that whatever "form" God has...Jesus had that too before coming to this earth as a human. What does the Bible say about the form of God?

According to John 4:24..."God is a spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (NASB and others render it the same way)

So God's "form" is "spirit"...meaning that in heaven, Jesus was also a spirit. Angels are spirits. No material creature can live in heaven because it is a spiritual realm.

That is the first point. There is so much more if you wish to discuss the rest....

Of course, the Son whom I believe the scriptures fully indicate has existed eternally with no beginning, would have no need to grasp at Godhood, just as those scriptures state, since He already has always possessed His God nature. In chapters 40-48 of Isaiah God emphatically makes the point that there is only one true God and only He is worthy of worship. Then right there in (Isaiah 45:22- 23 NWT) He says... Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, For I am God, and there is no one else. By myself I have sworn;The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness ,And it will not return: To me every knee will bend, Every tongue will swear loyalty.

...then in the New Testament the same phrasing is used in the recognition of Jesus..
so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:10-11 NASB). or ...
so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:10-11 NWT)

Why would the inspired biblical language expressly used to recognize Jehovah then be applied it to Jesus, if He were merely a created being? Do not the scriptures repeatedly state that God does not give His glory to another?

Deeje · May 12, 2018

David T said:
my daughter didn't choose.

My heart aches for your family David T

...but this is a genetic abnormality isn't it? Does medical science understand what caused this condition?

I am no stranger to genetic problems as they plague my own family.....but the one thing that gave me strength when I was looking for answers is the fact that God did not do this to us.....humans under the influence of a spiritual rebel caused all this damage to our genetics. That damage manifests in so many different ways.

The sad thing is, humans continue to poison everything they touch because the selfish greed factor just got stronger the further away we got from the Creator. The more polluted our world becomes, the more genetic damage is manifested.

It is my belief after many years of Bible research that the end will justify the means with regard to God allowing these things to take place without his intervention. He is showing both humans and angels what it means to disengage from him. By demonstrating to the fullest extent what it means to leave him out of our lives, he creates precedents that will last for all eternity to come. Object lessons are tough, but God has the ability to reverse everything when the lesson is complete, as I believe it will be soon.

I look at our current situation like a parent allowing a series of painful surgeries for their child to correct a serious abnormality. Though the surgeries are painful, they will in the end result in a good long term outcome for the child.
Can we allow God to do that? The results will be worth the pain in the long run.

One scripture that gives my heart a lift is in Isaiah 65 in prophesy about the future....

"For the former distresses will be forgotten; They will be concealed from my eyes.

For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart."

If God can allow things to go to their absolute limit to prove his case, it will go down in the annals of history so that it can never be raised again. Then he will restore everything back to its original condition and erase the memory of it.

That makes so much sense to me.

David T · May 12, 2018

Deeje said:
My heart aches for your family David T ...but this is a genetic abnormality isn't it? Does medical science understand what caused this condition?

I am no stranger to genetic problems as they plague my own family.....but the one thing that gave me strength when I was looking for answers is the fact that God did not do this to us.....humans under the influence of a spiritual rebel caused all this damage to out genetics. That damage manifests in so many different ways.

The sad thing is, humans continue to poison everything they touch because the selfish greed factor just got stronger the further away we got from the Creator. The more polluted our world becomes, the more genetic damage is manifested.

It is my belief after many years of Bible research that the end will justify the means with regard to God allowing these things to take place without his intervention. He is showing both humans and angels what it means to disengage from him. By demonstrating to the fullest extent what it means to leave him out of our lives, he creates precedents that will last for all eternity to come. Object lessons are tough, but God has the ability to reverse everything when the lesson is complete, as I believe it will be soon.

I look at our current situation like a parent allowing a series of painful surgeries for their child to correct a serious abnormality. Though the surgeries are painful, they will in the end result in a good long term outcome fro the child.
Can we allow God to do that? The results will be worth the pain in the long run.

One scripture that gives my heart a lift is in Isaiah 65 in prophesy about the future....

"For the former distresses will be forgotten; They will be concealed from my eyes.

For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart."

If God can allow things to go to their absolute limit to prove his case, it will go down in the annals of history so that it can never be raised again. Then he will restore everything back to its original condition and erase the memory of it.

That makes so much sense to me.

Oh she's a happy child. So no heart ache at all. It's an undiagnosed syndrome at this time. It didn't show up in the pre natal scans since,downs is the major one. That said, I am glad how it turned out and actually glad we didn't have to make that decision and if we could role backwards to the beginning and knew ít and know what we know today we would have said cool.Ryann is very cool and people really are drawn to her. So it's worked

. It's interesting there isn't really anything "wrong" with Ryann. She's different is all. She forces people to either see her or if they don't see her, it's them that have the problem not her. She doesn't measure people that way.

She can be seen in a couple of different ways. That should be an indication that perceptions are shaped and moulded by a number of different factors with culture being a very major one and the least reliable and superficial. So here a lot of times I am looking at how perceptions are formed as people discuss their perceptions. It's almost two separate realities, almost. Artists often times deal in perceptions and the discussions will tend to be about perceptions rather than a singular perception. Theology and philosophy and really academia in general doesn't deal in perceptions directly really.

Deeje · May 12, 2018

InChrist said:
Of course, the Son whom I believe the scriptures fully indicate has existed eternally with no beginning

Would you care to provide those scriptures please.

InChrist said:
would have no need to grasp at Godhood, just as those scriptures state, since He already has always possessed His God nature. In chapters 40-48 of Isaiah God emphatically makes the point that there is only one true God and only He is worthy of worship. Then right there in (Isaiah 45:22- 23 NWT) He says... Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, For I am God, and there is no one else. By myself I have sworn;The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness ,And it will not return: To me every knee will bend, Every tongue will swear loyalty.

In that same chapter, to..."those who carry around carved images And pray to a god that cannot save them"...Jehovah says..."There is no other God but me; A righteous God and a Savior, there is none besides me.

22 Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, For I am God, and there is no one else."

When it says..."To me every knee will bend, Every tongue will swear loyalty" does that rule out bending our knee to the one God sent to rescue us? Isn't Jesus also a "savior" in the sense of one who rescues another in trouble?

Is God the only "savior"? Can there be more than one savior? (Judges 3:9; 15)

What does that scripture in Philippians really say...?

InChrist said:
...then in the New Testament the same phrasing is used in the recognition of Jesus..
so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:10-11 NASB). or ...
so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:10-11 NWT)

Read the whole passage in context.....

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Phil 2:5-11)

Now read the highlighted portions and ask yourself.....

1) Can the Creator of all the Universe who is served by an vast army angels, become the "bond-servant" of anyone?

2) He became "obedient as far as death"...to whom was Jesus obedient if he was equally God?

3) How can one part of God "highly exalt" another part of his equal self?
And how does the "Most High" God give a separate part of himself a name "higher" than what he already has? Isn't his name already higher than any being in existence? (Psalm 83:18)

4) Why is every tongue confessing that Jesus is Lord (not God) ? It is..... "to the glory of God the Father".

How do you comprehend scripture when you have trinitarian blinkers on? The answer is...you can't.

"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him." (1 Cor 8:5-6)

How many "gods" did Paul say there were? How many "lords"? And yet he then gets specific.....There is only "one God, the Father" and this does not include Jesus Christ because he is mentioned as someone separate.

There is no trinity in the Bible. You can imply one if you twist some scripture and complately ignore others.

InChrist said:
Why would the inspired biblical language expressly used to recognize Jehovah then be applied it to Jesus, if He were merely a created being?

Jesus is God's representative on earth. He has the title LOGOS which means "Word"...it conveys the idea that this one speaks for Jehovah. All of Christ's teachings he said came from his Father.
He is a savior sent by a greater Savior. If God had not sent him, none of us would have a hope.

Do not the scriptures repeatedly state that God does not give His glory to another?

John 17:5..."Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
Jesus was glorified in heaven with his Father. They had been a team long before anything came into being. How he must have missed that close relationship of a Son to a Father. Shouldn't we ask why the relationship between Jesus and Jehovah is even called "Father and Son"? He was God's son long before coming to the earth...and a father is always older than his son.

Jesus was a glorious spirit being in heaven before being sent on his mission to earth. He asked God to restore his glory because as we can imagine, becoming a human may well have been tantamount to being born as an insect compared to a being mighty spirit creature....God's 'right hand man'.

Jehovah has always been the God of Jesus. When he returned to heaven that remained unchanged....
Look at Jesus' words in revelation 3:12.....

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name." (NASB)

How does one part of God worship himself? There is no equality between God and his son. Rarely is the holy spirit mentioned with these two. God's spirit is not a person. It has no name and it is never once called Almighty "God"...neither is Jesus.

InChrist · May 12, 2018

Deeje said:
Would you care to provide those scriptures please.

In that same chapter, to..."those who carry around carved images And pray to a god that cannot save them"...Jehovah says..."There is no other God but me; A righteous God and a Savior, there is none besides me.

22 Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, For I am God, and there is no one else."

When it says..."To me every knee will bend, Every tongue will swear loyalty" does that rule out bending our knee to the one God sent to rescue us? Isn't Jesus also a "savior" in the sense of one who rescues another in trouble?

Is God the only "savior"? Can there be more than one savior? (Judges 3:9; 15)

What does that scripture in Philippians really say...?

Read the whole passage in context.....

"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Phil 2:5-11)

Now read the highlighted portions and ask yourself.....

1) Can the Creator of all the Universe who is served by an vast army angels, become the "bond-servant" of anyone?

2) He became "obedient as far as death"...to whom was Jesus obedient if he was equally God?

3) How can one part of God "highly exalt" another part of his equal self?
And how does the "Most High" God give a separate part of himself a name "higher" than what he already has? Isn't his name already higher than any being in existence? (Psalm 83:18)

4) Why is every tongue confessing that Jesus is Lord (not God) ? It is..... "to the glory of God the Father".

How do you comprehend scripture when you have trinitarian blinkers on? The answer is...you can't.

"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him." (1 Cor 8:5-6)

How many "gods" did Paul say there were? How many "lords"? And yet he then gets specific.....There is only "one God, the Father" and this does not include Jesus Christ because he is mentioned as someone separate.

There is no trinity in the Bible. You can imply one if you twist some scripture and complately ignore others.

Jesus is God's representative on earth. He has the title LOGOS which means "Word"...it conveys the idea that this one speaks for Jehovah. All of Christ's teachings he said came from his Father.
He is a savior sent by a greater Savior. If God had not sent him, none of us would have a hope.

John 17:5..."Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
Jesus was glorified in heaven with his Father. They had been a team long before anything came into being. How he must have missed that close relationship of a Son to a Father. Shouldn't we ask why the relationship between Jesus and Jehovah is even called "Father and Son"? He was God's son long before coming to the earth...and a father is always older than his son.

Jesus was a glorious spirit being in heaven before being sent on his mission to earth. He asked God to restore his glory because as we can imagine, becoming a human may well have been tantamount to being born as an insect compared to a being mighty spirit creature....God's 'right hand man'.

Jehovah has always been the God of Jesus. When he returned to heaven that remained unchanged....
Look at Jesus' words in revelation 3:12.....

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name." (NASB)

How does one part of God worship himself? There is no equality between God and his son. Rarely is the holy spirit mentioned with these two. God's spirit is not a person. It has no name and it is never once called Almighty "God"...neither is Jesus.

Your post is way too long. I do not have time tonight or tomorrow to respond to so many points, plus I think meaningful discussion gets lost when too much is covered in one post. If you want to try being more focused on a main point then that may work better.

Deeje · May 12, 2018

InChrist said:
Your post is way too long. I do not have time tonight or tomorrow to respond to so many points, plus I think meaningful discussion gets lost when too much is covered in one post. If you want to try being more focused on a main point then that may work better.

Break them up and tackle them one at a time....there is no time limit. Its a big subject with serious implications if we get it wrong.

Segev Moran · May 13, 2018

Deeje said:
In reading the scriptures it is apparent that Adam lost something that only Jesus could get back for us. But why did it need him to sacrifice his life?

Adam didn't "lose" anything, he made a choice to let go of this "something".
I think that is the whole point of the Adam and Eve story. To show you that a choice was made that carried a well known consequence. Adam is painted as an all knowing human that was in a highest "divinity" level. wouldn't it strike you odd that he made a stupid choice like you are describing?

Based on the Jewish belief, Adam made a choice to "experience reality" in order to have an understanding of the spiritual world.
In other words, Adam and eve made a choice to "lose" their divinity and become mortals in order to be able to understand eternity.

There was no real "sin", there is nothing to be forgiven.

It is described what were the consequences of eating the "fruit of good and bad knowledge", the consequences are not a punishment but rather a transition to another state of existence (the opposite of transcendence?)

The scriptures say that Christ's sacrifice is a "ransom" which is the price paid for the release of a captive.

Why would god need a price for forgiveness?

Jesus said..."Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.”

What Adam did was sell his children into slavery due to his disobedience.

That is not what the genesis story tells.
Humans were not "slaves" of god. on the contrary, the uniqueness of humans was that they are the only species that could defy the word of god.
Can you explain what you mean when you say "slavery"?

They then had to pay for what he did.

Why would they have to pay for it?

This was slavery to sin and death....not something that we can release ourselves from. But why did Jesus have to be born as a human child and offer up his life? Because the price required under the law of God was an "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life."

Adam's sin caused alienation from God requiring a mediator to act as a go-between for us with God....because of our sinful condition, we cannot come before God directly. As mediator Jesus conveyed God's instructions to mankind behind the scenes for thousands of years before his mission to earth to offer his life for us. The "crime" committed by Adam carried the death penalty.....

That is not true.
Adam's wasn't punished for death, rather became mortal when he chose to eat from the tree.
Nowhere does it say that God punished them, rather explained to them their new state of existence (mortality, labor and such).

Adam died, but as a result, that penalty was inherited genetically by all of Adam's children. (Romans 5:12)

Since a perfect life was lost, only a perfect life could redeem mankind.

Wישא גם טםו צקשמ 'יקמ טםו דשט "perfect"?

None among the human race were now perfect, tarnished by the defect of sin. Jesus volunteered to carry out the mission and fulfill the law that justice required. It was the ultimate act of love. (John 15:13)

His life would pay for our release. But why is salvation necessary? Because humans on earth have free will and many of them do not want Christ's ransom to apply to them. By their choices and lifestyle they show God that they don't want to know him.

At the time of the judgment, only those who have proven worthy of the ransom will be saved from the coming wrath of God which will be expressed upon all those who heard the Christian message but rejected it.

Jesus used the days of Noah as a symbol of things to come....

Just as surely as God brought a flood of punishment upon a world of ungodly people, so he will again. Only this time it will not be by water.

Didn't god promised that he will never do such a thing ever again?
Also, if by being executed, Jesus brought salvation, why are we still here? shouldn't everything be concluded once Jesus made the "ransom payment"?

It will be like dealing with hijacker, and they will say: "pay us the ransom, and we will release the hostages in a few hundred years"..

thoughts?

Deeje · May 13, 2018

This is a bit long so I'll break it up....

Segev Moran said:
Adam didn't "lose" anything, he made a choice to let go of this "something".
I think that is the whole point of the Adam and Eve story. To show you that a choice was made that carried a well known consequence. Adam is painted as an all knowing human that was in a highest "divinity" level. wouldn't it strike you odd that he made a stupid choice like you are describing?

Based on the Jewish belief, Adam made a choice to "experience reality" in order to have an understanding of the spiritual world.
In other words, Adam and eve made a choice to "lose" their divinity and become mortals in order to be able to understand eternity.

There was no real "sin", there is nothing to be forgiven.

It is described what were the consequences of eating the "fruit of good and bad knowledge", the consequences are not a punishment but rather a transition to another state of existence (the opposite of transcendence?)

That is not the way I understand the Genesis account. Adam and his wife were created without defect, which is reinforced by the fact that at the conclusion of the 6th "day" after creating them, God said that "everything was very good"....that made his accomplishments on the 6th day better than the rest.

With such a good beginning, what could possibly go wrong? Well, a rebel spirit, who had been posted as a guardian in Eden began to entertain thoughts about his own status. He started to envy the worship that was given to God and decided he would get some of that for himself. He used the newest member of the human family as bait because Adam had waited a long time for a mate of his flesh and bone. The only way to get the humans to see him as a god was to destroy their relationship with Jehovah and cream off worshippers for himself.

Adam's choice was made because the devil divided his loyalties....divide and conquer is still a useful tactic against an enemy even today.

Segev Moran said:
Why would god need a price for forgiveness?

God's law demands that if a life is taken, then a life must be offered to balance the scales of justice. Adam sold his future offspring into a kind of slavery that would never end unless a generous person paid the debt.

Israel's laws on slavery and redemption later explained why Jesus needed to come and pay the price.

Matthew 18:23-35 is also a good illustration demonstrating the size of the debt that Jesus paid for our release.

Segev Moran said:
That is not what the genesis story tells.
Humans were not "slaves" of god. on the contrary, the uniqueness of humans was that they are the only species that could defy the word of god.
Can you explain what you mean when you say "slavery"?

It is true that humans alone have free will, which means that they can use it to defy their God...but the penalty was enough of a deterrent to make sure that didn't happen.....they were quite happy to obey the directive (since it created no hardship for them at all) until the spirit rebel made the fruit seem like something the woman had to have. Once she had partaken of the fruit, there was no 'returning the genie to the bottle'....Adam made a choice to side with his wife rather than to stand up for his God. Satan hoped that he could get to the man through the woman...it worked.

A knowledge of good and evil sent them into a slavery that kept them in bondage to sin. Their first reaction was to feel shame...something they had not experienced before. They hid and covered themselves because now their naked state opened up unclean thoughts.....their innocence was lost. They had no way to unlearn what had been unleashed.

Only intervention by God could remedy the situation. He began proceedings right there and then by offering a far reaching prophesy. (Genesis 3:15)

Deeje · May 13, 2018

Part 2

Segev Moran said:
Why would they have to pay for it?

The penalty suffered by Adam and his wife was a loss of their physical perfection resulting in defects that would be inherited by their children. (Romans 5:12) The word "sin" is an archery term meaning to "miss the mark"...they now fell short of their original perfect physical state, (which was really a reflection of their now flawed spiritual condition)....with no way to fix it by themselves.

Segev Moran said:
That is not true.
Adam's wasn't punished for death, rather became mortal when he chose to eat from the tree.
Nowhere does it say that God punished them, rather explained to them their new state of existence (mortality, labor and such).

No, sorry, Adam was created mortal otherwise the death penalty could not apply and the command not to eat the fruit would have had no way to be implemented. Immortals cannot die.
Mortals need air and food and water, which was supplied in abundance. No human can be immortal.

If you read the account, there were two trees in the garden...one meant death and the other guaranteed everlasting life. (but not immortality) To partake of the second tree, the humans had to obey the command not to eat that one fruit that God said was his property. But when they did, God barred access to "the tree of life".....death was then certain to follow. It wasn't an instantaneous death, but a slow decline into aging resulting in death.

Segev Moran said:
Wישא גם טםו צקשמ 'יקמ טםו דשט "perfect"?

Segev Moran said:
Didn't god promised that he will never do such a thing ever again?

No, he promised that he would never flood the world again. The next destruction will be by very different means.
The Hebrew scriptures call it the "great and fear inspiring day of Jehovah". (Malachi ch4)

Also, if by being executed, Jesus brought salvation, why are we still here? shouldn't everything be concluded once Jesus made the "ransom payment"?

The issues are complex and solved in Universal time not Earth time. We are restricted by the Earth's rotation but those of God's Universal family where rebellion began, do not dwell in a restricted time zone. (2 Peter 3:8)

If you do the sums, things happen about every 2000 years or so. Adam to the flood was just under 2,000 years....the flood to Jesus was also just over 2,000 years and Jesus death to now is just under 2,000 years...so it seems we are due for the next part of the prophesy....which is the end of the devil's time on earth and the time for God's Kingdom to rule the earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)

It will be like dealing with hijacker, and they will say: "pay us the ransom, and we will release the hostages in a few hundred years".

thoughts?

Since the apostle Peter said that a thousand years is just like one day to God.....it hasn't been all that long in Universal time....around 6 days.

Unveiled Artist · May 13, 2018

Samantha Rinne said:
Let's stop you there.

Isn't the Bible Corrupted?

That's just for Islam. This below is for atheism.

Isn't the Bible corrupt and untrustworthy?

So, tell me, how can you start off with the assertion "the bible is corrupted" as if it's an unquestioned fact.

I assume that you basis for this assumption is the assertion that the Jews were monotheists and suddenly we have this Trinity thing. So let's explain it out for you.

Christians are still monotheists. The Trinity is not three gods. It's one God.

The Messiah was mentioned in Hebrew scriptures. It was the one God was to send for our salvation.
God the Father, the Creator was mentioned at the start.
Okay, that's two but what about the Holy Spirit?

The Holy Spirit in the Old Testament - Thomas Nelson Bibles

Several times, actually. This didn't come out of whole cloth. It was something that came from Judaism. Where, then, is this corruption you speak of?

The question I have for JW is since they believe christianity, or christiondom as they name it, id corrupted then why would they take the bible as true. Since the bible was written part by jews and romans and was put together by The Church (which JW hate), why use it.

It makes no sense to put down people who put together the bible to begin with. If anything, theyd use the Torah. Jesus taught from the Torah. Instead of getting second hand from the apostles get direct info from god.

That, and what I say is not relates to the trinity. I dont agree there is o e in scripture; but, thats just me.

Unveiled Artist · May 13, 2018

You have to ask for clarification first. Assumptions are the mother of all evils

Samantha Rinne said:
Let's stop you there.

You have to reread my question to JW first

Samantha Rinne said:
That's just for Islam. This below is for atheism.

I focused on JW. I dont know if they share beliefs

Samantha Rinne said:
So, tell me, how can you start off with the assertion "the bible is corrupted" as if it's an unquestioned fact.

I said: since the Church put the bible together, and They (JW) believe christianity (christondome) is currupt, why use book to which in part come from the people who they dislike.

Samantha Rinne said:
I assume that you basis for this assumption is the assertion that the Jews were monotheists and suddenly we have this Trinity thing. So let's explain it out for you.

No. Thats silly; where did you get that from???

Assumptions are the mother of all evils. Ask for clarificatiom first.

Samantha Rinne said:
Christians are still monotheists. The Trinity is not three gods. It's one God.

I know. I was Catholic. Believe me, I know.

Samantha Rinne said:
The Messiah was mentioned in Hebrew scriptures. It was the one God was to send for our salvation.
God the Father, the Creator was mentioned at the start.
Okay, that's tw

This is unrelated to my question

Samantha Rinne said:
Several times, actually. This didn't come out of whole cloth. It was something that came from Judaism. Where, then, is this corruption you speak of?

Since christianity, according to JW, is corrupt why believe the bible and not the torah since the bible was written and put together in part by the Church; and, they are the ones who put it together.

Has nothing to do with trinity, islam, and I didnt say the bible was corrupt; I can care less. I dont follow it so I have no personal opinion about it.

Where did you get your accusations from???

I noticed jews here really are rude with my posts. Gets irritating afterwhile

Segev Moran · May 13, 2018

Deeje said:
This is a bit long so I'll break it up....

good thought

That is not the way I understand the Genesis account. Adam and his wife were created without defect, which is reinforced by the fact that at the conclusion of the 6th "day" after creating them, God said that "everything was very good"....that made his accomplishments on the 6th day better than the rest.

I can relate to that.

With such a good beginning, what could possibly go wrong?

Exactly.
Nothing.

Well, a rebel spirit, who had been posted as a guardian in Eden began to entertain thoughts about his own status. He started to envy the worship that was given to God and decided he would get some of that for himself. He used the newest member of the human family as bait because Adam had waited a long time for a mate of his flesh and bone.

How do you know how long Adam waited?

The only way to get the humans to see him as a god was to destroy their relationship with Jehovah and cream off worshippers for himself.

Where do you get the reference for the snake wanting them to worship itself?

Adam's choice was made because the devil divided his loyalties....divide and conquer is still a useful tactic against an enemy even today.

The devil was not mentioned in genesis.

God's law demands that if a life is taken, then a life must be offered to balance the scales of justice.

That is not true.

Adam sold his future offspring into a kind of slavery that would never end unless a generous person paid the debt.

Where do you see that? i mean, based on what texts did you build you interpretation?

Israel's laws on slavery and redemption later explained why Jesus needed to come and pay the price.

Why did he NEED to?

Matthew 18:23-35 is also a good illustration demonstrating the size of the debt that Jesus paid for our release.

Are there any text spoken by Jesus explaining why he had to die for salvation?

It is true that humans alone have free will

No it is not.
The only thing (as far as we know) that differentiates humans from other beings is our ability to interpret things that are outside the scope of our reality.
Some animals have free will.
Some animals have consciousnesses.
Some animals have feelings.
Some animals have desires.

which means that they can use it to defy their God...

or invent it

but the penalty was enough of a deterrent to make sure that didn't happen.....they were quite happy to obey the directive (since it created no hardship for them at all) until the spirit rebel made the fruit seem like something the woman had to have. Once she had partaken of the fruit, there was no 'returning the genie to the bottle'....Adam made a choice to side with his wife rather than to stand up for his God. Satan hoped that he could get to the man through the woman...it worked.

Satan? where do you see the devil in all of this? The devil is only introduced much much later in the bible.

A knowledge of good and evil sent them into a slavery

I disagree. I think it sent them into liberation. the only way to really have a free will is if you are not bound to limitation.
So in a way, Adam had to eat the fruit in order to fulfill god's purpose in making humans.

Segev Moran · May 13, 2018

Deeje said:
Part 2

Lol.. indeed long

The penalty suffered by Adam and his wife was a loss of their physical perfection resulting in defects that would be inherited by their children. (Romans 5:12) The word "sin" is an archery term meaning to "miss the mark"...they now fell short of their original perfect physical state, (which was really a reflection of their now flawed spiritual condition)....with no way to fix it by themselves.

Where does it say this?

No, sorry, Adam was created mortal otherwise the death penalty could not apply and the command not to eat the fruit would have had no way to be implemented. Immortals cannot die.
Mortals need air and food and water, which was supplied in abundance. No human can be immortal.

Not according to the Jewish teachings.

If you read the account, there were two trees in the garden...one meant death and the other guaranteed everlasting life. (but not immortality) To partake of the second tree, the humans had to obey the command not to eat that one fruit that God said was his property.

If Adam and eve weren't immortals, why god told them that now, after eating from the tree they will be mortals and eventually die?
Based on the Talmud, Adam and Eve were meant to be a perfect vessel for the human soul, once Adam ate from the tree, the vessel became flaud and now the only way to be whole again is through death.

But when they did, God barred access to "the tree of life".....death was then certain to follow. It wasn't an instantaneous death, but a slow decline into aging resulting in death.

Lol.. didn't see this

No, he promised that he would never flood the world again. The next destruction will be by very different means.

This verse clearly says that god promised to never curse the land, never eliminate the living and never cause lack of fertile land.
וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֶל-לִבּוֹ לֹא-אֹסִף לְקַלֵּל עוֹד אֶת-הָאֲדָמָה בַּעֲבוּר הָאָדָם, כִּי יֵצֶר לֵב הָאָדָם רַע מִנְּעֻרָיו; וְלֹא-אֹסִף עוֹד לְהַכּוֹת אֶת-כָּל-חַי, כַּאֲשֶׁר עָשִׂיתִי. כב עֹד, כָּל-יְמֵי הָאָרֶץ: זֶרַע וְקָצִיר וְקֹר וָחֹם וְקַיִץ וָחֹרֶף, וְיוֹם וָלַיְלָה--לֹא יִשְׁבֹּתוּ.

The Hebrew scriptures call it the "great and fear inspiring day of Jehovah". (Malachi ch4)

Thats God and Magog. This is a different thing. this speaks of the final salvation of humanity. not its destruction.

The issues are complex and solved in Universal time not Earth time. We are restricted by the Earth's rotation but those of God's Universal family where rebellion began, do not dwell in a restricted time zone. (2 Peter 3:8)

If you do the sums, things happen about every 2000 years or so. Adam to the flood was just under 2,000 years....the flood to Jesus was also just over 2,000 years and Jesus death to now is just under 2,000 years...so it seems we are due for the next part of the prophesy....which is the end of the devil's time on earth and the time for God's Kingdom to rule the earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)

Things happen in different times. 2000 is not a representing number.
The bible is filled with events ("reality changing") that are not in a 2K years "cooldown"

Since the apostle Peter said that a thousand years is just like one day to God.....

Which is false, if the claim god is not bound to time is true. There is no day nor year for god.

it hasn't been all that long in Universal time....around 6 days.

Deeje · May 13, 2018

Unveiled Artist said:
The question I have for JW is since they believe christianity, or christiondom as they name it, id corrupted then why would they take the bible as true. Since the bible was written part by jews and romans and was put together by The Church (which JW hate), why use it.

We don't believe that the "church" had anything to do with the Bible's content. I can assure you, not a single word was written by any Catholic. The church prevented the common people from owning or reading the Bible anyway. It wasn't until the Reformation that the Bible in its present form became available to the common people. God knows better than anyone when it is time to reveal things.

It is "God's word" and he can use whomever he pleases to write it, to compile it and to accomplish his will in connection with it. The Bible tells us that God can use even his enemies to facilitate the fulfillment of his purpose. There was no other "Christianity" in existence at the time, so God used who was available at the time.

When Jesus came to John the Baptist to begin his ministry, a corrupted Judaism had shaped Jewish attitudes to the point where the majority would reject their Messiah. Christendom has done exactly the same thing. When Christ comes again, the majority will be found in error because of the corruption of Christ's church. (Matthew 7:13-14; 21-23)

It makes no sense to put down people who put together the bible to begin with. If anything, theyd use the Torah. Jesus taught from the Torah.

We refer often to the Hebrew Scriptures. These were after all, the only ones Jesus and the apostles used.

Instead of getting second hand from the apostles get direct info from god.

We don't. But we can see that through Jesus' correct application of the Torah and the words of the prophets, we can differentiate between the right application, from the flawed one presented by the Pharisees. Jesus made many corrections. The "lost sheep" understood and accepted those corrections, but true to form, the Pharisees could not be told. (Matthew 23:37-39)

Deeje · May 13, 2018

Segev Moran said:
How do you know how long Adam waited?

By his expression when the woman was brought to him as a wife.

Segev Moran said:
Where do you get the reference for the snake wanting them to worship itself?

By what he told the woman in Eden "you will be like God knowing good and bad" IOW "you can be like me....I am like God".
And where he tempted Jesus by offering him 'all the kingdoms of the world in exchange for one act of worship'.

Segev Moran said:
The devil was not mentioned in genesis.

He is the adversary in Genesis. What is an adversary? It is an opponent.

Segev Moran said:
That is not true.

Perhaps I should have qualified that by saying that "premeditated murder" required the death penalty. Accidental manslaughter was handled differently.

Segev Moran said:
Where do you see that? i mean, based on what texts did you build you interpretation?

Romans 5:12; Matthew 20:28; Romans 6:23

Segev Moran said:
Are there any text spoken by Jesus explaining why he had to die for salvation?

Matthew 20:28

Segev Moran said:
Satan? where do you see the devil in all of this? The devil is only introduced much much later in the bible.

The devil has been with us since Eden. Only in the Revelation (which was conveyed to John by Jesus through an angel) is satan identified as "the original serpent". Revelation 20:1-3

Segev Moran said:
I disagree. I think it sent them into liberation. the only way to really have a free will is if you are not bound to limitation.

That is just the point...."free will" was never truly "free" at all, which is why there was a command to avoid just one fruit that God had placed off limits. Freedom of choice was always contained within limits set by God.

Segev Moran said:
So in a way, Adam had to eat the fruit in order to fulfill god's purpose in making humans.

That is very flawed thinking because it means that God planned all the misery and suffering that resulted from Adam's choice to join his wife in rebellion. His choice, (not hers) is the one that led the entire human race into sin and death.

If Adam had refused to eat the fruit, a completely different outcome would have resulted. Have you ever considered that?
There were three possible results from human choices in Eden.

God does not "act" to force humans to use their free will one way or the other, but he does "react" to their choices as he demonstrated in Eden.

More later....

Deeje · May 13, 2018

Segev Moran said:
Deeje said:

It is true that humans alone have free will

Click to expand...

No it is not.
The only thing (as far as we know) that differentiates humans from other beings is our ability to interpret things that are outside the scope of our reality.
Some animals have free will.
Some animals have consciousnesses.
Some animals have feelings.
Some animals have desires.

Free will cannot be truly exercised by animals because they have no concept of the past as it relates to the present or the future. Only humans possess the faculty of imagination to use when contemplating a future outcome of an imagined scenario. Animals have a will, consciousness, feelings and desires but not in the same capacity as we do. Instinct governs their actions more so than calculated actions.It is programming more than conscious decision.

Where does it say this?

Leviticus 4:2 mentions "sins" which comes from חָטָא châṭâ meaning...

"to sin, miss, miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit, purify from uncleanness

to miss
to sin, miss the goal or path of right and duty"

Genesis 1:1 (NASB)

Segev Moran said:
Not according to the Jewish teachings.

Sorry, but like Jesus, we do not take a whole lot of notice of how Jews interpret their scripture.

We go by the Bible and how Jesus interpreted scripture. He did not have a good thing to say about the Pharisees of his day for good reason we think.

Segev Moran said:
If Adam and eve weren't immortals, why god told them that now, after eating from the tree they will be mortals and eventually die?

Mortal doesn't mean that you HAVE to die....only that you CAN. There is no natural cause of death mentioned in Eden. Death would only occur if they disobeyed God's command and stole something that did not belong to them. God provided the means to keep them alive forever ....so as long as they obeyed, they would continue to live. (Genesis 3:22-24)

Based on the Talmud, Adam and Eve were meant to be a perfect vessel for the human soul, once Adam ate from the tree, the vessel became flaud and now the only way to be whole again is through death.

To us, the Talmud is not reliable as a source of truth. The human "soul" in the Biblical sense is a living breathing creature...both man and animals are called "souls". But souls are mortal. It isn't just the body that dies, but the soul (which represents a breathing creature whilst it is alive) can die.The human soul is synonymous with the whole person, not something that merely inhabits a body. Nothing survives death. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10)

"Behold, all souls are Mine. Like the soul of the father, like the soul of the son they are Mine; the soul that sins, it shall die. " דהֵ֚ן כָּל־הַנְּפָשׁוֹת֙ לִ֣י הֵ֔נָּה כְּנֶ֧פֶשׁ הָאָ֛ב וּכְנֶ֥פֶשׁ הַבֵּ֖ן לִי־הֵ֑נָּה הַנֶּ֥פֶשׁ הַֽחֹטֵ֖את הִ֥יא תָמֽוּת:
(Ezekiel 18:4)

Segev Moran said:
This verse clearly says that god promised to never curse the land, never eliminate the living and never cause lack of fertile land.
וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֶל-לִבּוֹ לֹא-אֹסִף לְקַלֵּל עוֹד אֶת-הָאֲדָמָה בַּעֲבוּר הָאָדָם, כִּי יֵצֶר לֵב הָאָדָם רַע מִנְּעֻרָיו; וְלֹא-אֹסִף עוֹד לְהַכּוֹת אֶת-כָּל-חַי, כַּאֲשֶׁר עָשִׂיתִי. כב עֹד, כָּל-יְמֵי הָאָרֶץ: זֶרַע וְקָצִיר וְקֹר וָחֹם וְקַיִץ וָחֹרֶף, וְיוֹם וָלַיְלָה--לֹא יִשְׁבֹּתוּ.

Genesis 9:11...."And I will establish My covenant with you, and never again will all flesh be cut off by the flood waters, and there will never again be a flood to destroy the earth." יאוַֽהֲקִֽמֹתִ֤י אֶת־בְּרִיתִי֙ אִתְּכֶ֔ם וְלֹֽא־יִכָּרֵ֧ת כָּל־בָּשָׂ֛ר ע֖וֹד מִמֵּ֣י הַמַּבּ֑וּל וְלֹא־יִֽהְיֶ֥ה ע֛וֹד מַבּ֖וּל לְשַׁחֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ:

Berei**** - Genesis - Chapter 9 (Parshah Noach)

I don't read Hebrew so I am only going by the English translation from chabad.org.

Segev Moran said:
Thats God and Magog. This is a different thing. this speaks of the final salvation of humanity. not its destruction.

The final salvation of mankind has to include the death of the wicked. The "great day of Jehovah" is the final act of cleansing the Earth of all who follow its god and ruler. Jesus will be the judge...not any man. (Matthew 25:31-33)

This is how I understand things....

InChrist · May 14, 2018

Deeje said:
In that same chapter, to..."those who carry around carved images And pray to a god that cannot save them"...Jehovah says..."There is no other God but me; A righteous God and a Savior, there is none besides me.

22 Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, For I am God, and there is no one else."

When it says..."To me every knee will bend, Every tongue will swear loyalty" does that rule out bending our knee to the one God sent to rescue us? Isn't Jesus also a "savior" in the sense of one who rescues another in trouble?

Is God the only "savior"? Can there be more than one savior? (Judges 3:9; 15)

In the Bible, as stated, God is the only Savior. In the OT God raised up deliverers (which is the word used in most legitimate translation, rather than savior) to rescue the people of Israel from their physical enemies. This is completely different from the concept and use of the word Savior when applied to Jehovah or Jesus. First, Moses was a deliverer, Joshua and others...but the people were never to bow their knee to them, as in worship reserved only for God. Secondly, the word Savior when applied to both Jehovah in the Hebrew scriptures and Jesus in the NT is capitalized and used in a way to demonstrate the unique, one and only quality of Jehovah and/or Jesus as the unique and only Savior of the world.

Deeje said:
1) Can the Creator of all the Universe who is served by an vast army angels, become the "bond-servant" of anyone?

Why would you think that the Creator of the universe could not become a bondservant, if He so chooses?

Deeje said:
2) He became "obedient as far as death"...to whom was Jesus obedient if he was equally God?

Jesus, the Son was obedient to the Father. Why should it be surprising that the Son loves, honors and obeys His Father?

Deeje said:
3) How can one part of God "highly exalt" another part of his equal self?

First, those who believe that God has a triune nature do not define God as "parts". The Person of the Father exalted the Person of Jesus, who had lowered Himself, come to earth, and taken on human flesh.

Deeje said:
And how does the "Most High" God give a separate part of himself a name "higher" than what he already has? Isn't his name already higher than any being in existence? (Psalm 83:18)

Again, it is not about a "separate part". The Father has given the name of "Jesus" as the name higher than any other, the name above all names. The name of Jesus was not revealed until the Person of Jesus existed, after the virgin birth on earth. Jesus is now the one and only, unique fully God/fully human Being in the universe, through which anyone must be saved. It really makes perfect sense that these scriptures from the OT and the NT would be applied to Jehovah and Jesus, if both are actually one in the same, which I believe according to the scriptures, is correct.

Deeje said:
4) Why is every tongue confessing that Jesus is Lord (not God) ? It is..... "to the glory of God the Father".

Calling Jesus Lord does not in any way show He is not God. On the contrary, his disciples understood who Jesus was well enough so they picked up the OT Hebrew word Adonai which is usually translated into English as "Lord" and used it for Jesus. The use of Lord as a title for Jesus when that same word is used a few hundred times in the OT as a title for Yahweh/Jehovah makes a strong statement for Jesus' Godhood.

Kurios is also the same word (in Greek) used for God the Father in such passages as Philippians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 8:21, 1 Thessalonians 3:3, 2 Timothy 2:24, Hebrews 13:6, 1 Peter 1:25, 1 Peter 2:3, 2 Peter 3:9, James 1:7, James 4:10, and Revelation 4:11. Paul refers to Jesus over and over again as Lord, it is clear that he understood Jesus to be God because for Paul, there was only "one Lord.".
Glorifying Jesus and acknowledging Him as the eternal beloved Son brings glory the God the Father.

Deeje said:
How do you comprehend scripture when you have trinitarian blinkers on? The answer is...you can't.

"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him." (1 Cor 8:5-6)

How many "gods" did Paul say there were? How many "lords"? And yet he then gets specific.....There is only "one God, the Father" and this does not include Jesus Christ because he is mentioned as someone separate.

Notice the ..."so-called", which means that there are truly no other gods. People may call other things or beings gods, but these are not in actuality gods at all. There is only One Creator God, according to the scriptures.

So the question could be how can you comprehend Scriptures through Watchtower lens?
The Bible clearly reveals only One God, One Savior and this God is Love. Therefore, this One God must include plurality, having both diversity and unity, in order for LOVE to have existed and occurred from all eternity past. Eternal love and devotion expressed between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The triune nature of God is imprinted and reflected through God's creation: Space, time, matter.
Space: Length, breadth, and height
Time: Past, present, future
Matter: Solid, liquid, gas
Then there is man/woman made in God's image with a triune nature: Spirit, soul, body

The triune nature of the Godhead is stamped throughout creation revealing the Trinity...
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, Romans 1:20

That's about all I have time for right now.

osgart · May 14, 2018

This is a very sincere religious , dare i say, debate.

Not only do i have to choose God. I have to find the right Bible if i were to believe that this is ultimate reality.

I wonder though the implications of getting it wrong, and going on my merry way to doom, when i thought i was saved.

I must confess in my youth i tried to be saved, but i did not detect God's presence.

There must be a source of conviction, where you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that what you have is the truth.

I have lived in a Christian family, father was a converted independent baptist, mom, a catholic.
My brother, is a baptist as well. And my nephew loves the kjv bible.

I honestly just wanted to be myself in it all and not get caught up in the whole affair. Mainly because i care about a lot of people who are not Christians i find it very hard to see the Christian Salvation as true.

Now at my current age i have a degenerative health condition, and i am really getting serious about the deep questions of what is true or not.

Segev Moran · May 14, 2018

Deeje said:
By his expression when the woman was brought to him as a wife.

What expression?

By what he told the woman in Eden "you will be like God knowing good and bad" IOW "you can be like me....I am like God".

I cant see how the second is the same as the first??
YOU will be like god...
where did he claim that he is like god? and if he told her she will be like god, it means she will not need to worship anyone

And where he tempted Jesus by offering him 'all the kingdoms of the world in exchange for one act of worship'.

Click to expand...

As a test?

He is the adversary in Genesis. What is an adversary? It is an opponent.

Click to expand...

Where did you see this reference?

Perhaps I should have qualified that by saying that "premeditated murder" required the death penalty. Accidental manslaughter was handled differently.

Click to expand...

Yes, there was death penalty based on the bible. but still the concept of eye for an eye doesn't refer to
it.

That is just the point...."free will" was never truly "free" at all, which is why there was a command to avoid just one fruit that God had placed off limits. Freedom of choice was always contained within limits set by God.

Click to expand...

Yet they did eat from it... so is it free or not?

That is very flawed thinking because it means that God planned all the misery and suffering that resulted from Adam's choice to join his wife in rebellion. His choice, (not hers) is the one that led the entire human race into sin and death.

Click to expand...

And freedom.
And yes.. god indeed plan all the suffering and misery, how can he not?

If Adam had refused to eat the fruit, a completely different outcome would have resulted. Have you ever considered that?

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Of course

There were three possible results from human choices in Eden.

God does not "act" to force humans to use their free will one way or the other, but he does "react" to their choices as he demonstrated in Eden.

More later....

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What is the salvation message the JW's espouse?

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Free4ever

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Free4ever

Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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