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His Eminence, The Pope.

Furchizedek

Member
Note: I put in a URL for the article below, but the system apparently changed it to what you see on the next line.

Is There Really "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church?" | Catholic Answers
Is There Really "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church?"
In Summary:
There are six key points that I believe we need to remember here:

1. No one who knowingly and deliberately rejects the truth** will be saved. It doesn’t matter how good of a Muslim, Jew, Baptist, or anything else he may be. If anyone rejects the truth of Christ and his Church—even one definitive teaching—they will be lost.

[**Note: Above, in #1, line one, the word "truth," which I bolded, apparently is a code word for "Catholic teachings." So we have to be very careful to watch for, and to catch, these clever built-in assumptions. Also the term "and his Church" in that same paragraph. That's more code word for "The Catholic church." And this is in spite of the fact that NO Where in the bible is the Catholic church even mentioned, nor is the word "pope" in the bible, nor is "Purgatory" or cardinal or arch-Bishop or monsignor, or venial sin or mortal sin, and so on. All of these words and code words are THE DOCTRINES OF MEN.]

2. Religions that have as tenants** of their respective faiths the rejection of Jesus and his Church have no power to save anyone. It is “the truth that makes us free” (cf. John 8:32), not falsehood.

[**NOTE#2 This is as far as I've proofread but this is a common mistake above, the word "tenants" is wrong. Tenants live in apartment buildings. Religions don't have "tenants." Who knows what the right word should be there? Anyone? Raise your hand if you know.]

3. In the case of one who is ignorant of the truth of the Catholic Faith, “through no fault of [his] own,” he can be saved, if he is truly “invincibly ignorant, [is] given the supernatural virtue of faith and [has] perfect charity in [his heart]” (cf. Instruction of Holy Office of Dec. 20, 1949).
4. We must remember that we are not the judges of salvation. God is the sole and final judge. We do not know who is truly “invincibly ignorant” and who is not. Therefore, we must be careful to “evangelize all men” as the Catechism commands us and leave the judging to God.
5. “Whatever good or truth is found amongst [other world religions] is considered by the Church to be ‘a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life’” (Lumen Gentium 16). And if they seek the true God given the light they have received, they have the possibility of salvation.
6. This does not mean they are not in need of the Eucharist! Without the grace that comes from the sacraments, one is at a decided disadvantage to get to heaven. And if one has rejected the truth, then there is no way he can merit heaven apart from repentance and the acceptance of the truth. The Church makes very clear: “The words bind and loose mean: whomever you exclude from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God” (CCC 1445).
If anyone makes it to heaven apart from what the Church refers to as “the ordinary means of sanctification that comes through the sacraments,” or a “formal union with the Church,” they will only do so through a salvific link with the Church that comes via extraordinary means.
Some Final Questions:
I often get two very poignant questions that will most often come from people who have a profound personal interest in the answer. That “personal interest” is usually rooted in their having had loved ones leave the true Faith.
1. “What about Catholics who have left the Faith? Are they okay, or are they lost?”
Anyone who knowingly and deliberately rejects the Church will be lost, as I said above. So it would be the height of presumption to say that someone who has left the Faith “is okay.” Now, it may well be that a person who left the Faith may have had such a distorted notion of what the Church truly is and what she teaches that there may not be culpability. Again, we don’t know. However, it may well be that they are culpable. And no amount of “church” attendance or prayer apart from the Church Jesus established, the Catholic Church, will get them to heaven if that is the case. One might even “deliver [one’s] body to be burned” (I Cor. 13:3), but it will “profit nothing” apart from union with Christ and his Church because it is only the divine life and charity of Christ in us that can save us. So we must take extremely serious anyone who has left the faith or anyone who is not in union with the Church because objectively speaking, (barring invincible ignorance, etc.) souls are on the line!
2. “What about the question of those who are in the process of converting to the Catholic Faith? If only the sacraments can take away the sins of those who are fully aware of their efficacy, what about these?”
The Council of Trent declared that either the actual sacraments or a “desire thereof” is sufficient to take away sins. In Session Seven, “On the Sacraments in General,” canon 4, the Council declared:
If any one saith that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.
Similarly, the Council of Trent declared, specifically concerning baptism, in Session Six, Chapter 4:
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
And with regard to the Sacrament of Confession, in Chapter 14 of that same Session Six, the Council declared:
Whence it is to be taught, that the penitence of a Christian, after his fall, is very different from that at (his) baptism; and that therein are included not only a cessation from sins, and a detestation thereof, or, a contrite and humble heart, but also the sacramental confession of the said sins,-at least in desire, and to be made in its season,-and sacerdotal absolution; and likewise satisfaction by fasts, alms, prayers, and the other pious exercises of a spiritual life; not indeed for the eternal punishment,-which is, together with the guilt, remitted, either by the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament…
Thus, the desire for the Sacraments of catechumens suffices until such a time as they can actually receive them.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Chaouqui-Papa-Francesco-grigio-300x170.jpg



Translation

Pope:
"You made us for Yourself and our heart won't rest until it will sleep within You" Augustine...Confessions

Francesca:
Holiness...you're not Obama...don't quote fking random phrases from books you didn't even read...because you still won't beat the suntanned guy's record.
 
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pearl

Well-Known Member
Because of this, if this were to be correct, I cannot be "saved" as I am not Catholic, nor do I take the sacraments, nor do I have any intention of converting. However, PF has said some things that indicates to me that he quite possibly doesn't buy into that teaching either.

247. We hold the Jewish people in special regard because their covenant with God has never been revoked, for "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (Rom 11:29). The Church, which shares with Jews an important part of the sacred Scriptures, looks upon the people of the covenant and their faith as one of the sacred roots of her own Christian identity (cf. Rom 11:16-18). As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God (cf. 1 Thes 1:9). With them, we believe in the one God who acts in history, and with them we accept his revealed word.

36. From the Christian confession that there can be only one path to salvation, however, it does not in any way follow that the Jews are excluded from God’s salvation because they do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel and the Son of God. Such a claim would find no support in the soteriological understanding of Saint Paul, who in the Letter to the Romans not only gives expression to his conviction that there can be no breach in the history of salvation, but that salvation comes from the Jews (cf. also Jn 4:22). God entrusted Israel with a unique mission, and He does not bring his mysterious plan of salvation for all peoples (cf. 1 Tim 2:4) to fulfilment without drawing into it his "first-born son" (Ex 4:22). From this it is self-evident that Paul in the Letter to the Romans definitively negates the question he himself has posed, whether God has repudiated his own people. Just as decisively he asserts: "For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (Rom 11:29). That the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery. It is therefore no accident that Paul’s soteriological reflections in Romans 9-11 on the irrevocable redemption of Israel against the background of the Christ-mystery culminate in a magnificent doxology: "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways" (Rom 11:33). Bernard of Clairvaux (De cons. III/I,3) says that for the Jews "a determined point in time has been fixed which cannot be anticipated".

And this is before the time of PF
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
247. We hold the Jewish people in special regard because their covenant with God has never been revoked, for "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (Rom 11:29). The Church, which shares with Jews an important part of the sacred Scriptures, looks upon the people of the covenant and their faith as one of the sacred roots of her own Christian identity (cf. Rom 11:16-18). As Christians, we cannot consider Judaism as a foreign religion; nor do we include the Jews among those called to turn from idols and to serve the true God (cf. 1 Thes 1:9). With them, we believe in the one God who acts in history, and with them we accept his revealed word.

36. From the Christian confession that there can be only one path to salvation, however, it does not in any way follow that the Jews are excluded from God’s salvation because they do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel and the Son of God. Such a claim would find no support in the soteriological understanding of Saint Paul, who in the Letter to the Romans not only gives expression to his conviction that there can be no breach in the history of salvation, but that salvation comes from the Jews (cf. also Jn 4:22). God entrusted Israel with a unique mission, and He does not bring his mysterious plan of salvation for all peoples (cf. 1 Tim 2:4) to fulfilment without drawing into it his "first-born son" (Ex 4:22). From this it is self-evident that Paul in the Letter to the Romans definitively negates the question he himself has posed, whether God has repudiated his own people. Just as decisively he asserts: "For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" (Rom 11:29). That the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery. It is therefore no accident that Paul’s soteriological reflections in Romans 9-11 on the irrevocable redemption of Israel against the background of the Christ-mystery culminate in a magnificent doxology: "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways" (Rom 11:33). Bernard of Clairvaux (De cons. III/I,3) says that for the Jews "a determined point in time has been fixed which cannot be anticipated".

And this is before the time of PF
You mean there may be hope for me yet??? :eek:

Thanks for this, my friend.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
"No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church?"[/QUOTE

extra ecclesiam nulla salus

The Latin word "extra" is both an adverb and preposition. Depending on its use in a sentence, the word has different meanings. When used to describe spatial relations between objects, the word is translated as "beyond" or "outside of" (e.g., Beyond the creek is a tree; or, James is outside of the room). When used to describe abstract relations between concepts or intangible things, the word is commonly translated "without" (e.g., Without a method, it is difficult to teach). Within the phrase in question, extra is a preposition describing the abstract relationship of the Church to salvation. Considering the Latin nuances of the word, a proper translation would be, "Without the Church there is no salvation." This translation more accurately reflects the doctrinal meaning of the phrase.
 

Furchizedek

Member
Its not a matter of reading between the lines, its a matter of understanding the development of Church doctrine and the theology that explains it.

The Gospel of Christ

That would be the gospel ABOUT Christ, which is a doctrine of men.

Actually, Jesus preached, and his 12 chosen Apostles preached with him while he was alive, the gospel of the kingdom and he told his followers to preach the gospel of the kingdom to the world, but this they have not done, instead, they've chosen to preach the gospel about Christ, a doctrine of men, and that's why, after 2000 years of preaching something other than what Jesus told them to preach, only 1/3rd of the world is even nominally Christian, 2/3rds is not Christian, and of the 1/3rd Christians, 1/2 of them, a billion people, one sixth of humanity, Catholics, pray to dead human beings, and call priests, "Father," in defiance of Jesus.

"And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people." (Matthew 9:35)

"And it came to pass... that Jesus went throughout every city and village, preaching and showing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him..." (Luke 8:1) (Also see Matthew 4:23, Mark 1:14, and Luke 4:43.)

Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God. (Mark 1:14)

[Jesus] said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, because for this purpose I have been sent." (Luke 4:43)

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)

Why don't Christians preach what Jesus told them to preach? Imagine how the world might have been different if, after 2000 years, Christians had done what Jesus said to do?

Of course, all of the above is just my opinion.
 
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Furchizedek

Member

Pelagianism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Pelagians" redirects here. For the Italian movement of lay mystics known as Pelagians, see Pelagians (Quietism).
For the indigenous inhabitants of the Aegean Sea region before the advent of the Greek language, see Pelasgians.
Pelagianism is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special divine aid.

I think I agree with that. :thumbsup:
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Actually, Jesus preached, and his 12 chosen Apostles preached with him while he was alive,

Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God...,...the kerygma of the Hellenistic church proclaimed Jesus as the crucified and risen Christ. And we know this only because of the men, guided by the Spirit, wrote the gospel about Christ who preached the Kingdom.
 

Furchizedek

Member
Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God...,...the kerygma of the Hellenistic church proclaimed Jesus as the crucified and risen Christ. And we know this only because of the men, guided by the Spirit, wrote the gospel about Christ who preached the Kingdom.

You don't know if anyone was "guided by the Spirit." That's just a belief. You can't "know" such a subjective thing. And the "gospel about Christ" (a doctrine of men) is not the gospel of the kingdom that Jesus and the 12 preached while Jesus was alive and which he told his followers to preach. The gospel of the kingdom that Jesus preached to the multitude is obviously not about Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. Guess what. It's about the kingdom. Jesus said do one thing and Christians say, "No, Jesus, we're going to preach what we want to preach, we're going to preach the cross, the gospel about YOU, instead of the gospel of the kingdom that you told us to preach." Christians have made this error for so long that they hardly even know what gospel of the kingdom is. And they are intimidated by Paul who says they will be "accursed" if they preach anything but what Paul told them to preach. (IMO)
 

Furchizedek

Member
Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God...,...the kerygma of the Hellenistic church proclaimed Jesus as the crucified and risen Christ. And we know this only because of the men, guided by the Spirit, wrote the gospel about Christ who preached the Kingdom.

You are a Catholic?

Can you tell me why, if you pray to Mary, why you pray to Mary when Jesus clearly says:

"But thou, WHEN thou prayest, ...pray to thy Father." (Matthew 6:6)

Why? Where is there room in what Jesus says to pray to dead human beings or to invoke the spirit of a dead guy named Tony to help you find your misplaced things?

"Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we lift up our mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn, then, o gracious mother, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and, after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, o loving, o sweet Virgin Mary." "Immaculate Mary, your praises we sing. You reign now in splendor with Jesus our King."

Really, doesn't that make you just the least bit sick to your stomach? And how does it fit in with, "But thou, WHEN thou prayest, ...pray to thy Father." (Matthew 6:6) ?

If Catholics would obey Jesus they'd have to make some big changes in their program.

And Jesus says, Mary who? (Matthew 12:48) Who is my mother?
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
The gospel of the kingdom that Jesus preached to the multitude is obviously not about Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection.

How could He preach concerning his D/R while he was still alive? You only know that He preached the Kingdom because of the men who wrote after Him. The Apostles preached the risen Jesus which included the Kingdom of God.

That's just a belief.

The entire Gospel is a belief, testimonies in faith. As for the kingdom of God, the Gospels are replete with the parables of Jesus teaching on the kingdom.
Jesus invitation to enter his kingdom comes in the forms of parables, a characteristic feature of his teaching. Through his parables he invites people to the feast of the kingdom, but he also asks for a radical choice: to gain the kingdom, one must give everything. Words are not enough; deeds are required. The parables are like mirrors for man: will he be hard soil or good earth for the world? What use has he made of the talents he has received? Jesus and the presence of the kingdom in this world are secretly at the heart of the parables. One must enter the kingdom, that is, become a disciple of Christ, in order to “know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven.”
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
One must enter the kingdom, that is, become a disciple of Christ, in order to “know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven.”
The contention is that churches make people disciples of the Church rather than disciples of Christ.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I know that to be a disciple of Jesus Christ isn't about doing good. It is about doing right. The Churches teach confusion, which is always bad, imo. First, it is taught that God's will is for a person to listen to the church's teaching and obey it and then it says God's will is just for you to be a good person and that Church membership isn't needed. That is confusing. Which one is a person to believe?
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Can you tell me why, if you pray to Mary, why you pray to Mary when Jesus clearly says:

"But thou, WHEN thou prayest, ...pray to thy Father." (Matthew 6:6)
Have you ever asked anyone to "Please pray for me"? Have you ever told anyone that "I'll pray for you"?

The Church has always believed that followers of "the Way" can pray for each other, plus they also included those who had "passed over", such as what is found with the words "the communion of saints...". This process even predates Jesus as many Jews came to believe that one could pray for another, including with the deceased.

Now, if you don't think it is moral to do that, then maybe don't do that. But then maybe realize that you don't have all the answers and that others may not believe in everything that you may believe in, and vice-versa.

If Catholics would obey Jesus they'd have to make some big changes in their program.
Ah, you just love making bigoted statements, doncha. Did ya ever stop and think that maybe you should be taking your own advice?
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Why? Where is there room in what Jesus says to pray to dead human beings or to invoke the spirit of a dead guy named Tony to help you find your misplaced things?

Popular piety as distinguished from what is Scriptural.
The text of the canticle, the Magnificat, is taken directly from the Gospel of Luke.

And Jesus says, Mary who? (Matthew 12:48) Who is my mother?

Jesus also says;
"Woman, behold, your son. Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother. And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. Jn19 :26,27

As for my own belief concerning Mary, she is the disciple par excellence.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I know that to be a disciple of Jesus Christ isn't about doing good. It is about doing right. The Churches teach confusion, which is always bad, imo. First, it is taught that God's will is for a person to listen to the church's teaching and obey it and then it says God's will is just for you to be a good person and that Church membership isn't needed. That is confusing. Which one is a person to believe?

Each religion has the right to define itself and what is required if one wants to be a member. Beyond that God's will is exemplified in the Jesus of the NT and in the interpretation of the various religions.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Each religion has the right to define itself and what is required if one wants to be a member. Beyond that God's will is exemplified in the Jesus of the NT and in the interpretation of the various religions.
The question is, can someone be a member of the body of The Christ AND be a member of a church?

I think that to be a member of any organization is to approbate whatever the organization does......or doesn't do.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
The question is, can someone be a member of the body of The Christ AND be a member of a church?

The Church is the body of Christ. It is the community gather in His name, whether the Catholic Church or a denomination, Christ is present within this community, in the hearing of the word, in the Eucharist.
 
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