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"Why Did God Create Mankind if He Knew Man Would Sin?"

Skwim

Veteran Member
LOL! Of course they're "beliefs." What else could they be?
Assertions of what you consider to be fact, which is exactly how you presented them. But hey, if you misspoke, (you're not the first one around here who has trouble with phraseology) and they're only your beliefs, so be it. :shrug: No biggie.

.
 

james blunt

Well-Known Member
God didn't know humans would sin when God had left and stopped teaching. God thought you was all going to be alright and normal.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I'm fine here if you are!

I mean, when he created us I presume he had a conception for our character, created us deliberately in that fashion, and didn't just create a new random type of sapient hominid. That is relevant because it means he should have known we were fully capable of pulling off a stunt like the one that got us almost immediately kicked out of the garden, and the idea of "selective foreknowledge" which you mentioned earlier in the thread wouldn't apply.
Hey tempogain, hope you are having a good day!

Keep in mind, for millions of years, none of the angels had turned against Jehovah, no one had ever tempted anybody to defy Him....and God was really a loving father, providing for the needs of all his creatures. There was no reason to expect anyone to begin a course of rebellion.

Having perfection means an inclination to obey...as opposed to us imperfect creatures.

Inclination doesn't mean always...otherwise they'd be automatons... but God wants worship from the heart, not cuz they're programmed to. And Jehovah dignifies His intelligent creatures by giving them privacy of thought, yet hoping they'll make the right choices.

I already posted a link to an article showing how the Bible says Jehovah 'felt hurt at heart', that He 'wanted to get to know' something, and He told Abraham after he tried to offer up Isaac, "Now I do know that you are God-fearing."

What does this indicate to you? That God always knows how individuals will act? Not to me. He may know how a situation will turn out, but He doesn't always choose to know who will be involved. There are a couple of exceptions: instances involving Cyrus the Great, Jeremiah, and Jesus. But those are exceedingly rare.

Let's get back to Adam & Eve. Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn't. So why did Adam rebel, it seems, so easily?
Well, look what was used against him: his precious wife! He was threatened with losing her! But as I mentioned in an earlier post, at the very least, he shouldve turned to his Father, and asked. The situation was actually working against Adam's obedient nature.... A situation the Devil had maneouvered.

Yes, Satan must have been thinking about rebellion for a while. At one time, the Angel who made himself a rebel, was once loyal to God -- @ John 8:44, Jesus said "he (Satan) did not stand fast in the truth" -- but he apparently kept thinking about wrong desires. -- James 1:13-15

And Jehovah didnt police their thoughts. At that time, He certainly had no reason to.

(Sorry if I rambled)
 

Furchizedek

Member
Assertions of what you consider to be fact, which is exactly how you presented them. But hey, if you misspoke, (you're not the first one around here who has trouble with phraseology) and they're only your beliefs, so be it. :shrug: No biggie.

.

People have a right to make belief assertions. And you have a right to question them about their assertions. It's all good.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
If God didn't create it, it had to come from somewhere outside of God into existence. What is that source?

As I stated previously, the source of sin is disobedience to God.

Did it exist eternally with God, but just not God?

Sin is disobedience to God. God is not disobedient to Himself, so there is no sin with God.

God's nature is goodness. Goodness would not need to be created, as goodness is the being of God.

Correct.

But is sin too?

No.

If not, it had a beginning. What was that beginning?

It beginning was in disobedience to God.

Is it eternal like God? If not, what or who created it?

Sin was not created. It does not an entity that exists alongside God. It is the current state of man.

Then it is eternal self-existent, like God?

Where you have disobedience to God you have sin. Sin can’t possibly be eternal like God because His creation is not eternal.

Then where did it get its existence from? Who or what created it?

Disobedience

So he was okay with sin, until he saw how it affected us?

God was never okay with sin and He already knew how it would affect us. God never wanted us to sin; we did that on our own.

This is an interesting theology which makes one wonder. What exactly is sin then?

Sin is DISOBEDIENCE to God.

It doesn't sound like it's anything that bothers God himself, only in that his human creation can't handle drinking from that bottle, so to speak.

How do you arrive at this conclusion? God gave his only begotten son to die for our sins. It sound to me like He was bothered.

Not what I was saying. Since it sounds like God was able to get along with sin existing prior to humans, then why want to get rid of it? Personal preference, like not liking pepperoni on your pizza?

Where do you get the idea that God got along with sin prior to humans? It's certainly not biblical.
Man was created with free will. It's not something God has taken away.

BTW, if man was created in God's image, and man is sinful, then wouldn't sin be part of God's nature?

Sin is disobedience to God. Does God disagree with Himself? Is He disobedient with Himself? If you have evidence of this, please expound on it.

Didn't God create everything that exists?

Correct.

Sin is outside of God's will,

No. Sin is not "outside of God's will", it's "not doing" God's will.

therefore it has a power that God does not will.

My goodness! We have free will and the power to exercise that will. Sometimes we use that power to do the will of God, sometime we don't.

Therefore, God would not have all power, or be omnipotent, in other words.

He had the power to grant us free will didn't he?

Again, sin was not created so it didn’t “come into existence outside of God”. You are looking at sin as if it were an entity with GPS coordinates. Sin does not have a location so there are no GPS coordinates to "hone in" on sin.

Neither does God, yet we don't have a problem understanding God exists.

No we don't have a problem understanding God exist but we don't have a problem understanding sin exists either. For evidence just look around.

Sin obviously has some form of existence in order for humans to drink from that source and offend God, right?

Sin has manifestation in our actions.

If it doesn't, then sin does not exist and the whole thing is a charade for human imaginations, right?

Who claims there is no sin? Certainly not Christians! When Jesus stated "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" no one was left with a stone in their hand.

That is interesting that you would call God becoming man a "condescension". If God created man good, without sin, and God became man without sin, then why is that a negative?

In Christian theology man is not equal but inferior to God. When God became man “condescension” was an excellent term to describe the process.

This is very curious indeed. Do you hate God's creation?

This sounds suspiciously like the Groucho Marx routine where he asks if I’ve stopped beating my wife. :rolleyes:

But to the point, yes, God does not have physical mass, or GPS coordinates, and yet we say God exists. So sin must be like God too then, not having mass, yet existing. Is sin spirit? If it existed before humans, it has to have some essence of existence in order to call it something.

Look around. Sin exists all over the place.

Briefly, you are trying to impose a dualistic reality on a nondualistic one, and it will run into inherent contradictions doing that. If all time exists within God, then God also exists within time. There can be no separation. If God is omnipresent, he would exist both inside and outside time equally.

The diagram represents a Christian view of God and His universe. Students of neo-Platonism or Eastern Philosophy will probably have lots of problems with it.

But I think you misunderstood my statement. When I say creation exists within God, not God within His creation, I’m stating that creation is bounded by God but God is not bounded by His creation. God is eternal, His creation is not.

. But then, sin really isn't a thing, is it? More just a state. But then how could that exist before humans? Do animals know sin?

Sin exists whenever and wherever there is disobedience to God. We are not the only creation of God that was granted free will. Animals do not have the ability to accept or reject God, so they do not sin.

It exists within our fallen nature.

From where outside of ourselves?

Our nature is not outside ourselves.

Also, I don't buy that humans have a fallen nature.

Then there is nothing that can be improved and our current state is the best we can hope for. I’m not buying that.

The fact that we can receive God, seems to indicate otherwise. A fallen nature would have no interest in God at any moment. Yet we do. There must be a God nature there too, or as our core nature, right? Like seeks like, and all of that?

For Christians our walk with God will entail a war of spirit vs. flesh. For others the status quo may be just fine.

The real problem is when you say sin existed before humans....You must believe that animals sin too then, the fishes of the sea, the birds of air, the creatures of land above and below, and so forth. Are they in a state of separation from God too?

There is no problem at all. Sin is not confined to humans because angels have sinned as well.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
If you leave a steak on the floor in room, and leave it with a dog, it is the dog's fault for having ate the steak when you return, or your fault for not doing something when you reasonably know what the outcome will be?

That would be my fault for leaving the steak on the floor. I’m sure there were animals who ate from the tree, but none of them, save man, were condemned by God.

Then is it not God's fault for "leaving a steak" in the Garden?

If we were dogs, yes...but we were never dogs.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Hey tempogain, hope you are having a good day!

Keep in mind, for millions of years, none of the angels had turned against Jehovah, no one had ever tempted anybody to defy Him....and God was really a loving father, providing for the needs of all his creatures. There was no reason to expect anyone to begin a course of rebellion.

Having perfection means an inclination to obey...as opposed to us imperfect creatures.

Inclination doesn't mean always...otherwise they'd be automatons... but God wants worship from the heart, not cuz they're programmed to. And Jehovah dignifies His intelligent creatures by giving them privacy of thought, yet hoping they'll make the right choices.

I already posted a link to an article showing how the Bible says Jehovah 'felt hurt at heart', that He 'wanted to get to know' something, and He told Abraham after he tried to offer up Isaac, "Now I do know that you are God-fearing."

What does this indicate to you? That God always knows how individuals will act? Not to me. He may know how a situation will turn out, but He doesn't always choose to know who will be involved. There are a couple of exceptions: instances involving Cyrus the Great, Jeremiah, and Jesus. But those are exceedingly rare.

Let's get back to Adam & Eve. Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn't. So why did Adam rebel, it seems, so easily?
Well, look what was used against him: his precious wife! He was threatened with losing her! But as I mentioned in an earlier post, at the very least, he shouldve turned to his Father, and asked. The situation was actually working against Adam's obedient nature.... A situation the Devil had maneouvered.

Yes, Satan must have been thinking about rebellion for a while. At one time, the Angel who made himself a rebel, was once loyal to God -- @ John 8:44, Jesus said "he (Satan) did not stand fast in the truth" -- but he apparently kept thinking about wrong desires. -- James 1:13-15

And Jehovah didnt police their thoughts. At that time, He certainly had no reason to.

(Sorry if I rambled)
for millions of years, none of the angels had turned against Jehovah,

no one had ever tempted anybody to defy Him

God. . . providing for the needs of all his creatures

Jehovah dignifies His intelligent creatures by giving them privacy of thought,

He may know how a situation will turn out, but He doesn't always choose to know who will be involved.

Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn't.

[Adam] was threatened with losing her!

Satan must have been thinking about rebellion for a while.

Jehovah didnt police their thoughts.


A curious collection of assertions you've made here. Care to tell us how you come by them, because they're certainly not in the Bible.

Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn't.
If Adam wasn't deceived, then why, after being told

Gen 2:16-17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”
did he take a bite?

Gen. 3:6
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate.
Short term memory loss perhaps? You say, "The situation was actually working against Adam's obedient nature.... A situation the Devil had maneouvered." If Adam was maneuvered by the devil what chance did he have in exercising volitional responsibility? None---he was deceived! And if this was the case how could god, in good conscience, hold him responsible? We mere mortals down here on earth certainly wouldn't because we consider culpability (responsibility) when assigning fault. You're implying god did not--he didn't care that the devil had deceived Adam into eating the apple---that god is less fair-minded than the creatures he created. But maybe that's exactly the case; god simply isn't as fair-minded as we are. Hmmm.
pondering-smiley-emoticon.gif



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james blunt

Well-Known Member
Then is it not God's fault for "leaving a steak" in the Garden?
Of course not , it is mans fault and more than likely over a women or food. Did you know that God whom is space, is the only thing that can't harm us?

Only when ''your'' mind is pure like God , will ''you'' find peace.
 

tempogain

Member
Keep in mind, for millions of years, none of the angels had turned against Jehovah, no one had ever tempted anybody to defy Him....and God was really a loving father, providing for the needs of all his creatures. There was no reason to expect anyone to begin a course of rebellion.

I expect my omniscient entities to know such things :) Especially about their own new creations, not to mention crafty and potentially damaging malignant actors! Well, I guess I've said everything I can really say about it, and I'll stand on my previous posts.
 

Furchizedek

Member
for millions of years, none of the angels had turned against Jehovah,

no one had ever tempted anybody to defy Him

God. . . providing for the needs of all his creatures

Jehovah dignifies His intelligent creatures by giving them privacy of thought,

He may know how a situation will turn out, but He doesn't always choose to know who will be involved.

Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn't.

[Adam] was threatened with losing her!

Satan must have been thinking about rebellion for a while.

Jehovah didnt police their thoughts.


A curious collection of assertions you've made here. Care to tell us how you come by them, because they're certainly not in the Bible.


If Adam wasn't deceived, then why, after being told

Gen 2:16-17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”
did he take a bite?

Gen. 3:6
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate.
Short term memory loss perhaps? You say, "The situation was actually working against Adam's obedient nature.... A situation the Devil had maneouvered." If Adam was maneuvered by the devil what chance did he have in exercising volitional responsibility? None---he was deceived! And if this was the case how could god, in good conscience, hold him responsible? We mere mortals down here on earth certainly wouldn't because we consider culpability (responsibility) when assigning fault. You're implying god did not--he didn't care that the devil had deceived Adam into eating the apple---that god is less fair-minded than the creatures he created. But maybe that's exactly the case; god simply isn't as fair-minded as we are. Hmmm.
pondering-smiley-emoticon.gif



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Disclaimer: Everything I say is my opinion and/or my beliefs.

I would like to suggest that anyone interested in the subject of Adam and Eve read these 4 papers in The Urantia Book, papers 74-77 (see below for details and links). They amount to 35 pages in the book, and they contain the true story of Adam and Eve (see disclaimer above) who were here 38,000 years ago (according to my belief). Anyway, 35 pages. Would it kill ya to read them? It's far and away the strangest story in The Urantia Book (IMO) but as Mark Twain said, "Truth is stranger than fiction." And wait till you read about the "secondary midwayers." There's 1,111 loyal secondary midwayers on earth doing God's business (according to the book). They're invisible. They're closer to human than angels, they're "midway" between humans and angels. They are the product of the Nephilim and the "mighty men of old" as mentioned in Genesis. They rolled the stone away from Jesus' tomb. Angels can't do that. Such are my beliefs at least.

Paper 74: 74. Adam and Eve
Adam and Eve
1. Adam and Eve on Jerusem
2. Arrival of Adam and Eve
3. Adam and Eve Learn about the Planet
4. The First Upheaval
5. Adam's Administration
6. Home Life of Adam and Eve
7. Life in the Garden
8. The Legend of Creation

Paper 75: 75. The Default of Adam and Eve
The Default of Adam and Eve
1. The Urantia Problem
2. Caligastia's Plot
3. The Temptation of Eve
4. The Realization of Default
5. Repercussions of Default
6. Adam and Eve Leave the Garden
7. Degradation of Adam and Eve
8. The So-Called Fall of Man

Paper 76: 76. The Second Garden
The Second Garden
1. The Edenites Enter Mesopotamia
2. Cain and Abel
3. Life in Mesopotamia
4. The Violet Race
5. Death of Adam and Eve
6. Survival of Adam and Eve

Paper 77: 77. The Midway Creatures
The Midway Creatures
1. The Primary Midwayers
2. The Nodite Race
3. The Tower of Babel
4. Nodite Centers of Civilization
5. Adamson and Ratta
6. The Secondary Midwayers
7. The Rebel Midwayers
8. The United Midwayers
9. The Permanent Citizens of Urantia
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As I stated previously, the source of sin is disobedience to God.
So then, we or some other being before us, was able to bring for something into the universe which had not been there, that God did not create? If you answer yes, which you have to, then there are other gods since only God is supposed to be responsible for all of creation, right? "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

So then, it appears either sin does not actually exist as this "thing" that our actions as humans brought into the world, or some entity did some creating of its own outside God's will or power. Hence, why God would not be omnipotent if this were so.

Sin is disobedience to God. God is not disobedient to Himself, so there is no sin with God.
If sin is disobedience to God, then why not just call it that, and not call it like some force or something that got brought into existence through disobedience? You are treating it as a "thing", a force of dark energies or something like that.

But in reality, it is interesting you say sin is "disobedience", using the Strict Parent image of God, as you appear to hold by that word choice. The word sin in the Greek of course, actually means "to fall short of the mark", which I assumed every Christian alive knows at this point. That falling short of the mark is not necessarily being "disobedient". That would actually be more a symptom, than a cause.

Falling short, doesn't mean you saying screw off to God. One doesn't have to be a state of active rebellion, in order to fall short of the mark. A dark thought about yourself or another is falling shot of the Grace of God, but it's not being "disobedient" (bad boy, bad boy, spank spank, spank). Many very loving and obedient children don't measure up at all times to making the best choice, or error in responses. This image of God that would call that "disobedient", is not a very Knowing or Compassionate God.

God was never okay with sin and He already knew how it would affect us. God never wanted us to sin; we did that on our own.
I rather see it that God created us as we are, and part of that was a path to find our way home to God. I don't believe the Adam and Eve story literally, as though it were meant to be read as historical and scientific facts.

The story that we fell from Grace, is in a sense true, inasmuch as humans were created by God into the world right along with all the other creatures of this creation. That state of being a creation is in itself a "separation" from God. We come from the Bosom of God into the world, though never in reality actually separate from God, as God cannot be separate from anything and still be considered to be God.

What is the separation, or 'fall', is that of our own awareness of God as the Source of us; that we are in reality, not separate from God because that is not possible. It is only in how we see reality though these very partial and limited set of eyes we use, be they physical, mental, or spiritual eyes.

What the story of Adam and Eve captures in its imagery, in its symbolism (and they are rich), is that of the human realization of his condition as awake enough to realize he is not in a slumber unaware of himself and the world like the animals, yet, not awake enough to truly understand and connect with that Source of their own being. This is an existential story, of an imagined past, which is really a projection of a hoped for future in order to explain this "midway" point between the beasts and the Infinite God which create all that is.

It is not a literal accounting, but an expression of the angst of the human condition, realizing we "fall short of the mark" or God, or that we are in the state of "sin". It ascribes this realization to mythological figures to represent this in us. So the story is "true", in that this is where we find ourselves, but it is not history and science.

Sin is DISOBEDIENCE to God.
"ἁμαρτία hamartia "sin", is failure, being in error, missing the mark, especially in spear throwing"

No, it's not "disobedience" that's a different word.

The diagram represents a Christian view of God and His universe. Students of neo-Platonism or Eastern Philosophy will probably have lots of problems with it.
Of course. Have you studied other views of this?

But I think you misunderstood my statement. When I say creation exists within God, not God within His creation, I’m stating that creation is bounded by God but God is not bounded by His creation. God is eternal, His creation is not.
I would never imagine God being bounded by creation. And, I would also never image being God not within every part of creation, fully present, in everything and everyone. That we don't see God, does not mean God is actually absent. God is not "out there", or "up there" somewhere outside creation either. That's not possible.

Do you believe God is not within Creation, not fully immanent and Present, but rather fully outside creation, wholly transcendent?


We are not the only creation of God that was granted free will. Animals do not have the ability to accept or reject God, so they do not sin.
How do you know this?

Then there is nothing that can be improved and our current state is the best we can hope for. I’m not buying that.
I don't buy that either. Of course we can grow, but why do you call that "fallen". Is a five year old a defective, or "fallen" 12 year old?

For Christians our walk with God will entail a war of spirit vs. flesh. For others the status quo may be just fine.
Actually, I find this notion of this being a "war" to be really misguided thinking. One does not have to kill, mame, injure, or destroy aspects of yourself in order to have a health, manageable relationship with them. This war notion, is a recipe of an unhealthy, dysfunctional dissociation of one's own psychological and spiritual self. It is not a recipe for growth.

Saying no, to indulgences is self-discipline, not pulling out knives and spears and going to war with yourself. That's unhealthy. That's violence. Violence is sin too. Wiping your back with shards of bone attached to leather straps in not a true spiritual path. That's just the ego.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
A curious collection of assertions you've made here. Care to tell us how you come by them, because they're certainly not in the Bible.

Do you think Adam ever took a crap?

Why? It's not stated in the Bible.
_________________

Do you think Eve ever slept?

Why? It's not in the Bible.
_________________

Certain reasonable deductions can be made, without the Bible saying anything.

But the Bible does specifically tell us a lot, like at John 8:44, Jesus said to the Jews that the 'Devil was their father', and that he was also "the father of the lie."

So, contrary to many opinions, the ancient Jews were aware of the Devil's existence -- if they had not been aware, Jesus' statement would have no meaning to them.

Further, by Jesus saying to them that he was the "father of the lie" and "a manslayer", no deceit had ever occurred before his rebellious activity at Eden.

It's deduction.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Do you think Adam ever took a crap?

Why? It's not stated in the Bible.
_________________

Do you think Eve ever slept?

Why? It's not in the Bible.
_________________

Certain reasonable deductions can be made, without the Bible saying anything.
And you honestly think these are reasonable deductions, do you. So, just what evidence led you to reasonably to conclude that:

for millions of years, none of the angels had turned against Jehovah,

no one had ever tempted anybody to defy Him

God. . . providing for the needs of all his creatures

Jehovah dignifies His intelligent creatures by giving them privacy of thought,

He may know how a situation will turn out, but He doesn't always choose to know who will be involved.

Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn't.

[Adam] was threatened with losing her!

Satan must have been thinking about rebellion for a while.

Jehovah didnt police their thoughts.


But the Bible does specifically tell us a lot, like at John 8:44, Jesus said to the Jews that the 'Devil was their father', and that he was also "the father of the lie."

So, contrary to many opinions, the ancient Jews were aware of the Devil's existence -- if they had not been aware, Jesus' statement would have no meaning to them.
Okay, but so what? We aren't talking about what Jesus told the Jews, but what you claim above.

It's deduction.
Fine. Just tell us from what evidence you deduced the claims I've relisted above.

.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
@Skwim,
How come you excluded the one paragraph of my reply that pertained to some of those issues?

(BTW, regarding Adam being deceived...1 Timothy 2:14)

I'll post it again:
"Further, by Jesus saying to them that he (the Devil) was the "father of the lie" and "a manslayer", no deceit had ever occurred, before his rebellious activity at Eden."

That should cover the first two.

Now, for the others....
"God. . . providing for the needs of all his creatures"

The psalmist David gratefully said to Jehovah: “To you the eyes of all look hopefully, and you are giving them their food in its season. You are opening your hand and satisfying the desire of every living thing.” (Psalm 145:15, 16) Jehovah has provided an abundance of food for both man and animal. There is a difference though. Whereas animals require only physical food, Jesus showed that man needs more than physical bread, or food. He ‘must live also on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah’s mouth.’—Matthew 4:4.
-- Except from Sustaining Ourselves on the Fulfillment of Jehovah’s Utterances — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY


"Jehovah dignifies His intelligent creatures by giving them privacy of thought,"

(Answered in the next part---)

"He may know how a situation will turn out, but He doesn't always choose to know who will be involved. "

Isaiah 46:10...He ' tells the finale.'
But....

Jonah 3:1-10...Jehovah God changed his mind, after the Ninevites repented.

Ge 18:20-22.....Jehovah advised Abraham of his decision to investigate Sodom (by means of his angels) to “see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it."

God spoke of ‘becoming acquainted with Abraham,’ and after Abraham went to the point of attempting to sacrifice Isaac, Jehovah said,For now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”—Ge 18:19;22:11, 12; compare Ne 9:7, 8; Ga 4:9.


(Excellent article at Foreknowledge, Foreordination — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY)

"Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn't."

Already answered. 1 Timothy 2:14

"[Adam] was threatened with losing her!"

Well, wasn't he? She ate from the tree....she was going to die!

"Satan must have been thinking about rebellion for a while. "

For one, he approached Eve, the one with the least experience, getting her to affect Adam.
Then he asked her a deceptive question which was just the opposite to what God had said! By inference, in question form, it was really the first lie, designed to give a false viewpoint. By creating the atmosphere of doubt, it led to the first direct lie: “You positively will not die.” (Gen. 2:16, 17; 3:1-5)

"Jehovah didnt police their thoughts."

See above.

Side point:
Deuteronomy 32:4-5...People acting stupid, is their own defect
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
So then, we or some other being before us, was able to bring for something into the universe which had not been there, that God did not create?

What do you mean "bring forth something into the universe which had not been there, that God did not create"? Where on earth in the Genesis account did you come up with that???

That's YOUR theory Windwalker, not mine. Your account doesn't appear in Genesis and your interpretation of sin is not evidenced in scripture. Instead it appears to me, however wrongly, that you're not really reading what I write but only read what you wish I would write.

That is not the right way to read my posts and is certainly no way to read and interpret Christian theology.

In any event I'm going to proceed under the assumption that when Christians say "SIN!" you're not exactly sure what we mean. Let's proceed:

If you answer yes, which you have to, then there are other gods since only God is supposed to be responsible for all of creation, right?

There are plenty of false gods that man brought forth. The bible is replete with them. They don't exist except in the imagination of men.

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Let's not conflate Godly attributes and claim they are made. Free will was not made. Let's not confuse disobedience to God as something "made". Disobedience is an allowance, not a creation, of God, and is a possible result of free will.

Prior to the making of free will creatures sin was not possible as God was never conflicted with Himself.

Let's proceed...

So then, it appears either sin does not actually exist as this "thing" that our actions as humans brought into the world,

EXCELLENT Windwalker! I think we're making progress here. Sin is not a "thing", with GPS coordinates. It's an exercise of free will and manifested in our actions.

or some entity did some creating of its own outside God's will or power.

Careful! We were making progess. Let's not backslide here.

Hence, why God would not be omnipotent if this were so.
Since this is not so, there is no need to conjecture as if it is.

If sin is disobedience to God, then why not just call it that, and not call it like some force or something that got brought into existence through disobedience?

Because I don't claim it's "some force or something that got brought into existence". That's something you or somebody else claims. I claim it's an exercise of free will and free will was not "some force or something that got brought into existence" because God always had free will.

I hope this is now clear. :)

You are treating it as a "thing", a force of dark energies or something like that.

After all I've posted here, answering every question you've asked, can you please let me know where you got that idea?

I appreciate your restatement. Restatements allow us to understand if we understand the other person's point of view correctly. But dialogue will be difficult if you repeatedly restate what I didn't write into something you prefer I did.

Let's test your restatement by kindly quoting the passage where I claimed, or inferred sin was "..a "thing", a force of dark energies or something like that". :rolleyes:

But in reality, it is interesting you say sin is "disobedience", using the Strict Parent image of God, as you appear to hold by that word choice. The word sin in the Greek of course, actually means "to fall short of the mark", which I assumed every Christian alive knows at this point. That falling short of the mark is not necessarily being "disobedient".

Ready the goalposts! I think they're about to be moved. :)

Please stay with thread theme and the context of our discussion. We're discussing A&E's sin which was disobedience to a command of God.

That would actually be more a symptom, than a cause.

Disobedience is not a symptom of free will else God would be disobedient. Also, and I am not sure if you're alleging otherwise, but disobedience is an exercise of free will and not a cause of free will. So disobedience is a sin but it is not a thingy, it is not a dark "force", nor is it a symptom or cause of free will.

Falling short, doesn't mean you saying screw off to God. One doesn't have to be a state of active rebellion, in order to fall short of the mark. A dark thought about yourself or another is falling shot of the Grace of God, but it's not being "disobedient" (bad boy, bad boy, spank spank, spank). Many very loving and obedient children don't measure up at all times to making the best choice, or error in responses. This image of God that would call that "disobedient", is not a very Knowing or Compassionate God.

Interesting sidebar, and to some extent I agree, but we're talking about a man and woman, not a boy and girl. Let's get back to the Genesis account and the specific matter we were discussing which was A&E purposeful, non-accidental decision to not obey the command of God.

I rather see it that God created us as we are, and part of that was a path to find our way home to God. I don't believe the Adam and Eve story literally, as though it were meant to be read as historical and scientific facts.

I agree with you that God created us "as we were". I also believe He knew what we would be, but decided on creating us anyways because He knows what we will become.

It is not a literal accounting, but an expression of the angst of the human condition, realizing we "fall short of the mark" or God, or that we are in the state of "sin". It ascribes this realization to mythological figures to represent this in us. So the story is "true", in that this is where we find ourselves, but it is not history and science.

I appreciate your thoughts on Genesis. I know some people consider it literal, other allegory, still others something else. I believe the bible to be the word of God and that when God speaks His word is inerrant. I also agree with your previous statement that for now, we see through a dark glassy.

"ἁμαρτία hamartia "sin", is failure, being in error, missing the mark, especially in spear throwing"

No, it's not "disobedience" that's a different word.

Again, we're talking about A&E's sin so yes, disobedience was involved,and this much more than "spear throwing". When they were disobedient they erred or missed the mark.

Of course. Have you studied other views of this?

I've studied, but I would not consider myself a current student. It's been a long time since college.

I would never imagine God being bounded by creation. And, I would also never image being God not within every part of creation, fully present, in everything and everyone. That we don't see God, does not mean God is actually absent. God is not "out there", or "up there" somewhere outside creation either. That's not possible.

I agree with you to some extent. Physically there can be no place where God is not. Spiritually I believe that the Holy Spirit indwells those who want Him.

Sin exists whenever and wherever there is disobedience to God. We are not the only creation of God that was granted free will. Animals do not have the ability to accept or reject God, so they do not sin.

How do you know this?

All creation is a witness to God in its own way. But they would not have the capacity to take the Lord's name in vain, bear false witness or keep the Sabbath, and still, even after all these years, have no idea they're running around naked. :eek:

I don't buy that either. Of course we can grow, but why do you call that "fallen". Is a five year old a defective, or "fallen" 12 year old?

Yes, both are fallen:

the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (Romans 3:22-24)​

We are fallen because we are morally and spiritually degraded from where we were in the garden.
Remember Jesus' admonishment to the church at Ephesus: “Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first” (Revelation 2:5 see also 1 Corinthians 10:12).

Saying no, to indulgences is self-discipline, not pulling out knives and spears and going to war with yourself. That's unhealthy. That's violence. Violence is sin too. Wiping your back with shards of bone attached to leather straps in not a true spiritual path. That's just the ego

I agree! As scripture states:

"These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh." (Col 2:23)​

but when Christians war with fleshly desires they are not pulling knives, wiping themselves with shards of bone or even striking themselves with leather straps.

It is a spiritual war against our fallen, carnal nature.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Clearly not, but it demonstrates that responsibility for the actions of another may at times rest upon us.

I agree with your "may". In the Genesis account it's apparently what Adam tried to do...blame his own actions on Eve and by extension, God:

"The man said, "The woman you put here with me--she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
 
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