74x12
Well-Known Member
I already answered that I actually agree with you on this being about Jesus. However it's a stretch to say this is one master rather than two.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Is Jesus the Archangel Michael ?
- Thread starter Blessed of JEHOVAH
- Start date
-
- Tags
- the truth
74x12
Well-Known Member
There is difference from being Pharaoh's 2nd in command and then claiming that what glory belongs to Pharaoh is yours.
When Jesus returns in the glory of the Father then we'll see that He is the Father. (Matthew 16:27)
Zechariah 14:9 is about Jehovah so if you thought it was about Jesus then you were right but it's about Jesus who is Jehovah.
(Young's Literal Translation) 14:9 And Jehovah hath become king over all the land, In that day there is one Jehovah, and His name one.
74x12
Well-Known Member
It does imply the Father is in the world!! 1 John 3:1-6 is clear evidence.
Jesus existed always as God. We do not believe that Jesus came into existence at birth. It's really very simple.
1. God existed
2. God spoke the Word (This is the Word that God would be manifest into the world)
3. The Word stayed hidden with God until the time came. The Word of God is the Son of God who would be revealed in the world.
4. The Word was manifest into the world. This is Jesus the Son who is God manifest.
5. The Word returned again to God as the scripture says "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." As Jesus said He came out from God and again He returns to the Father.
6. Now Jesus returned to the Father but sits on the Right hand in human form ruling and reigning until all Humanities enemies are put under His human feet. Jesus will sit and reign until the kingdom is perfected. Until all those in the body of Christ are built up together to the full stature of Christ. Until every bit of the temple of God which is comprised of living stones is finished and built up.
7. Then the Son of man truly returns to the Father at the head of the redeemed.
Yes, I suppose in so many words John is saying we have fellowship with the fullness of God. Not just part of God but all of God.
But you conveniently are not including 1 John 2:24 which again mentions the Father and the Son. Yet notice carefully what happens in verse 25!!! In verse 25 the scripture calls the Father and the Son as if they are One! Which they are! It calls the Son and the Father "he" which is singular tense! There is only One God!
1 John 2:24-25 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
That's because God is omnipresent and can be in as many places as He wants. But remember that Jesus taught the kingdom of God "is within you." (Luke 17:21) And even Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world.
Elohim means God or gods and Theos is the same. satan is a "god" for those who worship him. There are many called gods as Paul says. (1 Corinthians 8:5) But for us the church there is only One God and can only be One. (1 Corinthians 8:6)
Not only does Isaiah 9:6 say taht Jesus is God but also the everlasting Father. There is only one Father for the church. (Ephesians 4:6) and even Jesus taught to call no man Father for One is your Father in heaven. (Matthew 23:9)
Jehovah is sold for 30 pieces of silver. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy proving He is God.
If they look on "me" whom they pierced and "me" is God; then Jesus is God.
Apologetics
Member
You see You dont believe Jesus existed prior to being born of Mary. You just stated that above Thats the core of your doctrine.Everything you interpret revolves around that . Jesus only existed in a prophetic sense. You dont understand and refused to believe the testimonies of the writers. John 6:62. Here is your problem When you say Jesus only existed in a prophetic sense. Then John 6:62 has to be interpreted as follows. Jesus returns to the prophetic realm of not existing until the prophetic time occurs again. Now ask your self does that make any sense.
Of course not.
Take the writers testimony. John 6:62 Jesus said he exist before coming to Earth and again John 1:30 The baptist said Jesus existed before the baptist was born.
Thats their testimony.
Apologetics
Member
Your only saying this because Jesus used the word son of man.. It is clear in John 17:5 That Jesus existed before the world was. Now in your eyes that means only in a prophetic sense Jesus was foretold to be Jesus. Thats your position. Jesus used a very important word in John 17:5 The word HAD is past tense as in already experienced not yet to be experienced in the future.
Something that is prophetic is an event not yet experience. The word Had is past tense already experienced. Jesus was returning to the Glory he had already experienced.
Your taking that word HAD and twisting to mean an event foretold yet to be experienced.
Thats very bad interpreting.
So its clear Jesus could not have been the first man because he existed before their was a world for the first man Adam to exist in.
Jesus only became a man in Heb 2:14 For as much as the children were partakers of flesh and blood he himself likewise to part of the same. Thats when Jesus became a man about 4000 years after Adam the first man.
Apologetics
Member
Thats Good. But you only agree because Joseph only portrays the prophetic Jesus that does not exist yet . Ive brought it up to illustrate that it corroborates that Jesus who created the world Heb 1:2 is not the Majesty on High as Heb 1:3 portrays. In as much that even though Joseph ruled over all Egypt yet he still was not the Pharaoh. 2 separate persons living at the same time. Something you deny!!
I know you teach as a man Jesus is below the Majesty on High but that Jesus is still God the Majesty on High. Makes no sense at all.
It appears that to oneness teaching that if one was to observe God visually he would be something like a spinning being in which at various times Jesus shows up then the Majesty shows up and then the Holy spirit shows up all at different times but never all 3 at the same time in the same place.
Thats what you believe.
Thats the doctrine of a man. Not found in any of the apostle writings!!
Thing about this. you say Jesus did not existed until he was born of Mary. He existed in only a prophetic sense.
Yet Heb 1:2 and Eph 3:9 Says just the opposite. That Jesus created the worlds by the command of the majesty on High.
Which was hid in God who created all things by Jesus Christ.
What was hid? That the Majesty on High gave Jesus the honor and glory to create the worlds. Thats is what was hid
Now if Jesus did not exist until he was born of Mary how then could he have created anything.
You See the writers Taught that Jesus had a God over him Eph 1:3 Eph 1:17 1Pet 1:3
In heave Jesus said he had a God over him Rev 3:12 John 2017
Its the testimony of the writers that you refuse to accept.
Apologetics
Member
Again You still dont understand
Heb 2:14-17 and Phil 2:8 Notice these 4 phrases
He took part of the same
Took upon himself
Behoved to be made like his brothers
Being found in fashion as a man.
In all these phrases the English is such that it portrays Jesus
transforming from an existence outside this universe to and existence equal to the inhabitants of earth.
But your stuck with the man made concept that Jesus only existed in a prophetic sense until the time appointed
Phil 2:8 in particular is very revealing because it portrays the emotions Jesus had after leaving the Majesty on highs side to fulfill his will where he existed before the world was separate from his father.
For it says after being found in the fashion of a man he humbled himself. Jesus has a mental realization that he was no longer in that Glorious existences he had with his Father. But a mere man Just like you and me Heb 4:15
You said
I've noticed those verses before (trust me) As I've been trying to say there had to actually come a time in reality when He became what He already was in intent and in the plan and Word of God. As Luke 1:35 says "therefore" (For this reason) that holy thing that shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Those verses you say you've noticed before John 1:30 John 6:62 John 6:38 have nothing to do with prophecy as you have above described. Thats where you go astray!!!
They have everything to do with the pre existence of Jesus as a being prior to being born of Mary. Nothing at all is about prophecy.
So go back read again and tell yourself these passage have nothing to do about prophecy. And just believe what they actually say. Take the English words for what they say.
This is exactly where the oneness teaching has twisted the writers words.
In regards to Jesus being called the son of God
Gabriel is merely helping Mary to comprehend what is about to transform her life. Hes describing to her how she will have a child even though she has never been with a man. The power of God he says which Mary has never experienced in her life but only read about in the books of Moses is going to cause her to have a child. Gabriel tells Mary that Jesus ( a Thing) shall be called the son of God Because Jesus did not come from Mary But from God. John 6:38 I came down from heaven, I Came out from God and came into the world John 16:27-28.
You see Gabriel did not say he shall be called the son of Mary. But the son of God.
Again Isa 9:8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel. Heb 2:14 Jesus took upon himself flesh and blood. He left his glory he had with the Majesty on high and became a man. John 17:5
1 Til 2:5 Paul calls Jesus For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
You see there Jesus is between the majesty on high and Fallen Man
In your world God at one moment puts on the face of Jesus to intercede to himself for fallen man and then the next moment he puts on the face of The Majesty on high to receive the intercession.
Thats nonsense
Remember this always Jesus did not come from Mary but from God.
Apologetics
Member
The glory that Joseph received from Pharoah was the honor of exclusively taking command of all his household and all of Egypt.
The glory that the Majesty on high will give to Jesus is the ruler ship over all the earth Dan 7:13-14 Zac 14:9 under the authority of the Majesty on High .Just Like Joseph and Pharaoh. A perfect illustration!
In your world The majesty puts on the face of Jesus to rule the earth and show himself as Jesus to mankind Then the next moment he puts on the face of the Holy Spirit to teach mankind and then the next moment he puts back on the face of the Majesty on high to command the other 2 faces.
All this because Jesus and the Holy spirit have to be God
None sense
Apologetics
Member
Apologetics
Member
Assuming Im not!!!!!!Its right there for you to read. Jesus own words. I came down. You see again he did not come from Mary. Jesus the subordinate Son of God existed in heaven for he says I came down. You have to be somewhere to come down. To say I came down has nothing to do with prophecy either. Its a declaration of existing somewhere else and transporting to another location.
And Jesus explains that his exit from heaven was not of his own will. Right there a will separate from the Majesty. For he says My own will but the will of him that sent me.
In other words Jesus did presume authority and send himself. But he patiently waited obediently at the Majesty s side until the time appointed to enter the world and fulfill the Majesty Plans set forth before the world began.
Plain as day 2 wills separate from each other.
Again John 17:5 Glorify me( one person/will) with your own self( 2 nd person/will) Before the world was.
There is nothing prophetic at all in this passage. You call this a prophetic prophecy of a future event therefore there are no 2 persons.
Nothing could be farther from the truth!!
Oneness doctrine falls apart With John 1:30 John 6:62 John 6:38 John 20:17 Rev 2:12
We,ve went over these scriptures over and over. I see very clearly what you believe and why you believe it.
But you cant see what I see Because Jesus has to be God.
Why dont you just try believing that Jesus is not God and believe what the writers actually say he is Gods Son existing before the world was.
Why is that such a problem for you. Well since I understand your teaching its because God does not give his glory to another therefor Jesus has to be God .
Thats what locks it down for you and makes it an absolute concrete fact.
Where as I see something completely different than you.
The Holy Spirit doesn't teach one follower one thing and another followers something different.
One of us is wrong
One of us is not walking in the Spirit.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that is incorrect. God is one. The Trinity is God.
I believe the Holy Spirit does not have two opposite opinions. It matters not whether tie has passed or not but whether a person truly has the Holy Spirit or just thinks he does.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the word begotten is often used as a reference to birth but it could be used in any case of getting to be and is not necessarily a reference to birth.
I believe that is still not correct. He was not born again, He was raised.
I believe in Colossians Paul is using "firstborn" as a metaphor to simply indicate that like a child that is firstborn before his brothers and sisters Jesus is the first person resurrected to a new body and His brothers and sisters will follow.
74x12
Well-Known Member
Jesus had to be born again by the holy Spirit. This fulfilled His victory over the flesh. The flesh was what was born of Mary. It was nailed to a cross so He put it to death. But when the holy Spirit breathed on Him causing the resurrection. Then He was born again. This time of the Spirit of God; so that He may live forever. We surely cannot live forever with just breathing oxygen you know? Our lungs cannot last forever. They'll give out eventually because they're only flesh. The Breath that God will gives us though is eternal breath if we believe and are partakers of the Resurrection that is in the body of Jesus Christ.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Well seeing that Michael the Arch Angel is a created being and Jesus is not a created being,
So what do you think ?
If had notice that in Daniel the Prophet 12:1, states ( Michael the great prince )
Now notice ( prince ) is a lower case ( p )
As for the ( Prince ) has a higher case
( P ) signifying someone of a more higher position than the lower case ( p ) ( P )
Therefore Michael the Arch Angel has a lower case ( p ) than when speaking about the Lord Prince ( P ) a capital.
74x12
Well-Known Member
This is an obvious straw man argument you're giving here. I believe Jesus was in heaven and is in heaven and will always be. He's God. The scripture says there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the holy Spirit. (1 John 5:7) That scripture has been disparaged and taken out of the Bible by many misguided people. But it's still the truth. It doesn't matter what people believe from their corrupted versions.
74x12
Well-Known Member
You are making a nonsensical argument that Jesus is the son of a man before He was actually born a human. Clearly if Jesus is to be the Son of man; then He must be born human.
I've already explained the passage John 17:5 numerous times but you won't have it so. Just keep it in context of John 17:1 please.
74x12
Well-Known Member
No it isn't what I believe. You're just putting words in my mouth. God can appear in any way He desires and is not limited. He can indeed appear as the Father, Son and holy Spirit at once if He wishes to do so. God's not limited.
The idea of Jesus being God who is a Spirit and yet manifesting in this reality in human form is nonsense to you because God hasn't shown you.
Of course Jesus had a God! Have you even been paying attention to what I say? I guess not.
What was hidden was the incarnation of Jesus Christ. The fact that God would come into the world His own creation and die on a cross. This is what Peter was talking about in 1 Peter 1:18-21 and the word "manifest" means revealed. There was nothing hidden that is not meant to be revealed. Jesus was what was hidden since before the foundation of the world.
1 Peter 1:18-21 King James Version (KJV)
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
74x12
Well-Known Member
I actually do believe in a pre-incarnate Christ. He is God. How can i make myself any clearer than that?
It is you who don't understand.
Don't you know that God has made the preaching of the cross is foolishness to the world? The way to understand the will of God is not conformed to this world's way of thinking but is to be transformed by the renewing of your mind so that you will be able to understand what is that good and acceptable will of God.
A.C. Simon
Member
Alright so Jehovah Witnessess believe Jesus is creation while actual followers of Jesus believe He is God in the flesh, the creator, which was believed by the first disciples of Christ and the early church. But let me give you an argument as to why Jesus is creator and not creation which can not be denied.
Let me start of by saying a being is either creator or creation. Now in the beginning God spoke creation into existence, He created the universe by His Word: and in the bible(even the JW bible) it says Jesus is the Word that was in the beginning with God (John 1:1). So God created the universe by His Word (Jesus Christ), which means Jesus is not creation, but Creator: and therefore being God; and is not Michael the archangel, who is a part of creation and who Jesus Himself created.
Let me start of by saying a being is either creator or creation. Now in the beginning God spoke creation into existence, He created the universe by His Word: and in the bible(even the JW bible) it says Jesus is the Word that was in the beginning with God (John 1:1). So God created the universe by His Word (Jesus Christ), which means Jesus is not creation, but Creator: and therefore being God; and is not Michael the archangel, who is a part of creation and who Jesus Himself created.
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
I tried explaining this to you once and it didn't take. So let's try this yet again.
Jewish scripture - what you would call the Old Testament - was not written in English. Daniel, in particular, was written in Hebrew and Aramaic.
THERE ARE NO CAPITAL LETTERS IN HEBREW OR ARAMAIC. NONE.
Do you understand that?
With the exception of place names and personal names, capitalization of words in translations into languages with capital letters represent editorial decisions made by translators who bring their own views, assumptions, biases if you will, to the task of translation.