The scriptures are hard to understand

Faithofchristian · May 5, 2018

74x12 said:
It means exactly what it says. In context it is about idols, but anything means anything.

It means that if anyone thinks they know something they do not know it as well as they should know it.

What of the words of Agur(Gatherer) the son of Jakeh(Blameless) in Proverbs 30:1-3?

Proverbs 30:1-3 The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, even the prophecy: the man spake unto Ithiel, even unto Ithiel and Ucal, 2 Surely I am more brutish than any man, and have not the understanding of a man. 3 I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy.

True wisdom is to admit we have not learned wisdom and that we do not have knowledge of the holy. That's true wisdom. What I'm saying is that there is no end to the things that God may reveal. For now we see as if through a mirror dimly ... (1 Corinthians 13:12) It is in heaven where people know everything they want to know. On earth; not so.

And the scriptures are not easy to understand otherwise everyone would believe. But it says "And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not." (Isaiah 6:9) Yes Jesus foretold them all things but these are only revealed through the holy Spirit. Without the holy Spirit showing them; people are not going to see.

Seeing that you only pick out 1 to 3 verses
out of Proverbs chapter 30, And try to build a whole mountain off of them, unto which will not work. Not with me any how.

Had you read the whole chapter 30 of Proverbs, you would haved found out that
A-gur is in the giving Prophecy, about a generation, that would come cursing their father and mother.
Unto which we are now in that generation.
That A-gur gave Prophecy about.

As for wisdom and knowledge, comes by studing the word of God, For every word of God is pure, God is a shield unto them that puts their trust in God.

For wisdom stand by for them that seek wisdom and knowledge from God.

For wisdom and knowledge comes by God that seek God.

But as for the wicked they have no wisdom or knowledge, the wicked rise up early to do evil.

Again had you read the whole Chapter 13
of 1st Corinthians, you would haved found Paul is speaking about ( Love )

That a person can have wisdom and knowledge, But without ( Love ) they are nothing.

As for 1st Corinthians 13:12, Had you back up to verse 11, and then read down, You would haved found Paul speaking about being as a child, we do childish things,
But when get older, we put off the childish things that we once did.

That now we see through a glass darkly, For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a does, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass, for he beholds himself, And goes his way, and straightway
for getting what manner of man he was.

For out of wisdom and knowledge flows these three ( Faith ) ( Hope ) ( Love )
But the greatest of these is ( Love )

As for Isaiah 6:9, is speaking about the people of Israel, how they got lazy and turned away from their God.
So God sent Isaiah to his people Israel, to turn them back to their God.

Therefore God said unto Isaiah Go, and tell this people, Hear you indeed, But understand not, and see you indeed, but perceive not.
The people of Israel hears but they can not perceive what is being said to them.

As it is, people to day are the same, that they hear the word of God, but can not understand what they are reading.

But as it is, even to day people haved harden their hearts of not hearing nor seeing, but haved turned away from God

So that now they curse what they don't understand and speak evil against those things which they don't understand.

That is correct, Jesus did in fact, foretold all things.
When Jesus spoke those words, have you any idea as to who Jesus was in the speaking to ?

Your right, That without the Holy Spirit of God, people are not and will not make any sense of the scriptures.
Thereby "The Scriptures are hard to Understand"
For them that have not the Spirit of God.

For this reason I ask people, that in the book of Mark 13, that Jesus foretold what the Blasphemy of the Spirit is.
And when it will happen, and by who can commit it.

Now without the Spirit of God, seeing they will not see, and hearing, they will not hear what the Spirit of God is saying.
What the Blasphemy of the Spirit of God is
And when it will happen.
And by who can commit it.

Faithofchristian · May 5, 2018

Brickjectivity said:
I think its too easy to pretend to be a bible teacher. The world is full of talking heads claiming to teach about the books in this ancient tome. It is easy to read with the intent of looking for a sign, looking for a story or looking for material to speak about. For example there are several mentions of rain and clouds, so you can whip up a sermon about clouds tossing in some tangent thoughts. In the process you can beat the drum about other subjects ... like the devil, call to prayer, call to volunteer or donate. Anybody can do it, and they can look studious without much effort.

Ok, so let's look at the ( clouds )
In Scriptures, Clouds also Represents angles which clothed in white linen and upon white horses. Revelation 19:11-14
Which from a distance would look like Clouds being all white. But as they get closer to the earth, it becomes clear who they really are.

As for the ( rain ) there are two types of rain, first you have the first rain, which causes flowers, grass, trees, people to start to plant their gardens.
Then you have the latter rain, Which causes the ground to freeze, getting set for winter.

Kenny · May 5, 2018

74x12 said:
All of it. What I mean is ... What topic do you understand perfectly in the scriptures?

When do you know perfectly your husband or your wife? It is a life long discovery of deeper truths and it is a joy every time another layer has been discovered.

TrueBeliever37 · May 5, 2018

KenS said:
What part do you find it hard to understand?

Surely you aren't claiming to understand all the scriptures are you?

Straight is the gate and narrow the way that leads unto life and few there be that find it.

I personally think there are some things easy to understand, and some things hard to understand. But even the easy things many people get wrong. You can study till you are blue in the face, but unless God gives you understanding you will never have it. There is always a greater depth of understanding in a subject. God dwells in a light no man can approach.

TrueBeliever37 · May 5, 2018

Faithofchristian said:
The scriptures are not hard to understand,

Well the apostle Peter disagrees with you. II Peter 3:16

74x12 · May 5, 2018

A Vestigial Mote said:
What if someone truly feels that they do not need to understand? What if that is where their truly sincere feelings always point them?

"God" is a concept I simply do not accept. Many with belief in God like yourself will automatically jump to "hubris", or that I maintain arrogance to deny God - which is a waste of your thoughts. I don't have to want to "be God" or "be my own god" or any such nonsense to simply feel completely uncompelled by the paltry excuses for "evidence", the rampant hypocrisy among hundreds of thousands of members of the church, among whom SO MANY believe they are completely supported by "God" in their thoughts and actions. I watch believers, I examine their behaviors, I listen to their words... and it is mostly empty of "reality" for me. I find it to be composed mostly of pomp and strutting. I watch them, feel a bit ashamed on their behalf, and vow never to act or sound like they do.

There are a small handful of believers I have met who have truly been genuine in their care and devotion to mankind. And do you know where their words come from? From a place of man-to-man. Human-to-human. Not Got-to-human, nor "witness"-to-human, nor "God's vessel"-to-human. I could count these people on one hand... for the rest I would need one hundred hands or more.

No offense, but I posted this in the Biblical debate section. The statement "Otherwise they will not understand." is meant for people who may actually want to understand the scriptures or think they understand and they really don't.

I don't know if you're arrogant. I wouldn't say you're arrogant only because you do not accept the concept of God. Wrong? Yes I believe so. But not necessarily arrogant.

You might be making the mistake of putting to much emphasis on humans. In other words you might be expecting people to be perfect examples of God's perfectness. That's not going to happen. Although there are some people who (by the grace of God) are very good examples, yet even they fall far short.

Even if all believers on earth were horrible hypocrites that still wouldn't necessarily mean that God was not real. Remember that Jesus had a very big problem with the sanctimonious types in His day.

Faithofchristian · May 5, 2018

TrueBeliever37 said:
Well the apostle Peter disagrees with you. II Peter 3:16

Seeing you do not have it right.
2 Peter 3:16 is referring to the wicked, That the wicked which are unlearned and unstable, which the wicked pervert the things they don't understand, As they do other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Maybe had you back up to the beginning of the Chapter and read the whole chapter and find out what the subject is about.
You might have been farther ahead by doing so.
But you pick out one verse out of the whole chapter, then you go about trying to build a whole mountain out of it.All the while you leave all the other 17 verses just standing there, Had you realized that all 18 verses goes together and not picking out just one verse that suits your agenda.
Unto which will not work with me. You might have better luck with someone else. That are unlearned and unskilled in the scriptures.
Nice try. thanks

Subduction Zone · May 5, 2018

Brickjectivity said:
I think its too easy to pretend to be a bible teacher. The world is full of talking heads claiming to teach about the books in this ancient tome. It is easy to read with the intent of looking for a sign, looking for a story or looking for material to speak about. For example there are several mentions of rain and clouds, so you can whip up a sermon about clouds tossing in some tangent thoughts. In the process you can beat the drum about other subjects ... like the devil, call to prayer, call to volunteer or donate. Anybody can do it, and they can look studious without much effort.

The fact that so many people have wildly different interpretations of the Bible and have no credible way to test their beliefs belies the claim that the Bible is easily understandable. What I have seen is that far too often the interpretations merely match the personal prejudices of the interpreter. There are thousands of different sects of Christianity as a result of this.

But I might have missed something. Did anyone come up with a verifiable way of checking one's personal interpretation of the Bible that I missed?

QuestioningMind · May 5, 2018

74x12 said:
God is beyond us so anything He says should be considered in that light. Rather than assuming we know what He means we should look deeper.

You're doing good then because Jesus said ask and you'll receive, seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened to you. This is the key to understanding the scriptures. Asking God in prayer; then actively seeking for the truth. I agree with all your areas of research as being important.
That's why the just will walk by faith and not by sight. Whoever seeks the truth; they do so through faith. Otherwise they will not understand.

QuestioningMind · May 5, 2018

74x12 said:
God is beyond us so anything He says should be considered in that light. Rather than assuming we know what He means we should look deeper.

You're doing good then because Jesus said ask and you'll receive, seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened to you. This is the key to understanding the scriptures. Asking God in prayer; then actively seeking for the truth. I agree with all your areas of research as being important.
That's why the just will walk by faith and not by sight. Whoever seeks the truth; they do so through faith. Otherwise they will not understand.

"Whoever seeks the truth; they do so through faith. Otherwise they will not understand"

People can have faith in virtually anything, even diametrically opposed concepts. So clearly faith is NOT a reliable path to the truth. Anyone who claims that FAITH is needed in order to understand a basic truth is obviously trying to con you.

74x12 · May 5, 2018

QuestioningMind said:
"Whoever seeks the truth; they do so through faith. Otherwise they will not understand"

People can have faith in virtually anything, even diametrically opposed concepts. So clearly faith is NOT a reliable path to the truth. Anyone who claims that FAITH is needed in order to understand a basic truth is obviously trying to con you.

See what I said in post #28 and #33.

columbus · May 5, 2018

74x12 said:
Yet on a personal level God can be tested. So the scripture says "O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him." (Psalm 34:8)

Here's the thing I have noticed. People who sincerely pray for guidance from Scripture wind up believing dramatically different things in some regards, and remarkably similar ones in others. And not just Christians.

I am a nontheist, an agnostic deist. But I have a lot of experience with church communities and religious people, due to church affiliations and volunteer opportunities and such. Amiable conversation with religious people happens a lot for me. And not just Christians, I live in a relatively multicultural part of a conservative Christian place.

I cannot help but notice that sincere believers, putting their trust in the Divine through prayers and meditation and Scripture studies, come to a lot of varying conclusions about some things and very similar ones about other things. The ones that they tend to share, across religious divides, can also be found in the Secular Humanist Manifesto. It's the other stuff, that they are convinced is true and a Message from God, that they disagree on.

This has left me convinced that God doesn't actually speak to anyone or deliver an intuitive understanding of any religious literature, despite many people saying that they have experienced it. I think that they subconsciously make it up and then go with it.
That's fine with me when it's about caring for the needy or something. When preventing civil rights, not so much. And I don't really care what God image you choose, monotheistic or trinitarian or something else. Just don't try to tell me that I must accept your authority to describe the Creator, or else....
Tom

A Vestigial Mote · May 5, 2018

74x12 said:
No offense, but I posted this in the Biblical debate section. The statement "Otherwise they will not understand." is meant for people who may actually want to understand the scriptures or think they understand and they really don't.

I don't know if you're arrogant. I wouldn't say you're arrogant only because you do not accept the concept of God. Wrong? Yes I believe so. But not necessarily arrogant.

You might be making the mistake of putting to much emphasis on humans. In other words you might be expecting people to be perfect examples of God's perfectness. That's not going to happen. Although there are some people who (by the grace of God) are very good examples, yet even they fall far short.

Even if all believers on earth were horrible hypocrites that still wouldn't necessarily mean that God was not real. Remember that Jesus had a very big problem with the sanctimonious types in His day.

Oops... missed the sub-section heading on this. Sorry for that. i try to pay attention... but probably rely too much on the system warning me that I'm not allowed to post in a certain place.

I'll delete my original post.

InChrist · May 5, 2018

Subduction Zone said:
First one must define one's terms. What is sin? What is a savior and why is one neede? What makes the savior of the Bible special and why should we believe that version?

Well, I think the Bible defines sin and our need for a Savior simply and clearly enough for anyone to understand. From my perspective, the biblical scriptures are unique because the message in the Bible lines up with reality as no other religious writings or ideas do and ...Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

InChrist · May 5, 2018

Subduction Zone said:
the problem with self interpretation is that your interpretation will be different from others.

A consistent test not subject to personal bias is needed to be reliable.

Personal interpretations and bias can be a problem.
Yet God wants people to test for validity and certainly if God is God, the Creator of heaven and earth, as claimed in the Bible this Being can provide adequate evidence for anyone who sincerely wants to know.

"God has never asked anyone to believe anything that does not rest upon a foundation. Faith does not mean to move blindly into some area and say, "Oh, I am trusting God." That is very foolish. God never asks us to do that. For example, in our salvation we do not bring a little lamb to offer as a sacrifice; our faith rests upon the historical facts of the death, the burial and the resurrection of the Son of God. God never asks us to take a leap in the dark. He asks us to believe and trust something which rests upon a firm foundation, and it is the only foundation, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:11). If any person is an honest unbeliever and sincerely wants to know God, he will come to a saving faith. Folk with whom I have dealt who say that they cannot believe are not being honest. The fact of the matter is that no man's eyes are blindfolded unless he himself chooses to be blindfolded. If a person really wants to know God and will give up his sin and turn to Christ, God will make Himself real to him. In our day the problem is that a great many folk do not really mean business with God."
Blind Faith vs. Testing God - Thru the Bible with Dr. J. Vernon McGee

Subduction Zone · May 5, 2018

InChrist said:
Well, I think the Bible defines sin and our need for a Savior simply and clearly enough for anyone to understand. From my perspective, the biblical scriptures are unique because the message in the Bible lines up with reality as no other religious writings or ideas do and ...Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

The problem is that your "perspective" applies only to you. Unless you can think of a testable verifiable indepenent way of interpreting the Bible it is rather useless since it can be used to support almost any side of an argument and has been used in that way.

Subduction Zone · May 5, 2018

InChrist said:
Personal interpretations and bias can be a problem.
Yet God wants people to test for validity and certainly if God is God, the Creator of heaven and earth, as claimed in the Bible this Being can provide adequate evidence for anyone who sincerely wants to know.

"God has never asked anyone to believe anything that does not rest upon a foundation. Faith does not mean to move blindly into some area and say, "Oh, I am trusting God." That is very foolish. God never asks us to do that. For example, in our salvation we do not bring a little lamb to offer as a sacrifice; our faith rests upon the historical facts of the death, the burial and the resurrection of the Son of God. God never asks us to take a leap in the dark. He asks us to believe and trust something which rests upon a firm foundation, and it is the only foundation, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:11). If any person is an honest unbeliever and sincerely wants to know God, he will come to a saving faith. Folk with whom I have dealt who say that they cannot believe are not being honest. The fact of the matter is that no man's eyes are blindfolded unless he himself chooses to be blindfolded. If a person really wants to know God and will give up his sin and turn to Christ, God will make Himself real to him. In our day the problem is that a great many folk do not really mean business with God."
Blind Faith vs. Testing God - Thru the Bible with Dr. J. Vernon McGee

No real support of your claims there. The very different opinions about the Bible sink what McGee says.

But I don't expect you to accomplish what every Christian has failed to do for almost 2,000 years.

InChrist · May 5, 2018

Subduction Zone said:
The fact that so many people have wildly different interpretations of the Bible and have no credible way to test their beliefs belies the claim that the Bible is easily understandable. What I have seen is that far too often the interpretations merely match the personal prejudices of the interpreter. There are thousands of different sects of Christianity as a result of this.

But I might have missed something. Did anyone come up with a verifiable way of checking one's personal interpretation of the Bible that I missed?

I believe the attitude one must have when approaching the scriptures is the desire to know what God is intending to speak through a specific passage in the context of the whole. Asking questions such as, who is being spoken to?, what is being said?, where is this being spoken?, when is it taking place?, why is this being spoken? are important.

The scriptures interpret themselves and the truth therein, if one is willing to let them, rather than imposing their own opinions. Of course, everyone falls short in having the right attitude and being always willing to submit to God's view without interjecting personal ideas. Nevertheless, God understands this and just as He did not create robots who must respond to Him positively, He also allows for each person to grow in knowledge of His word at a different pace. So from the outside it looks disjointed with the many different variations of Christianity, but I think God sees the outcome when unity of the faith occurs with all who belong to Him.

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Eph. 4:11-16

QuestioningMind · May 5, 2018

74x12 said:
Well people have faith everyday in something that can do something they can't. Like a GPS devise in their car. A police officer because someone is threatening them or whatever.

What I'm saying is that faith can be logical in a certain situation. So suppose (hypothetically) that God is real and can be contacted by anyone. However, this is not widely known or acknowledged and there are so many counterfeit truths out there that no one knows any more which "truth" is right. They could find out from God. But in order to do that it takes that person having faith otherwise they won't bother. In other words they have to make the effort. So, in this scenario it's logical for this God to make faith the way to know the truth.

No, people don't use faith everyday. GPS doesn't function on faith. Police officers don't function on faith. Trust in a GPS system is EARNED. Trust in the police is EARNED. Some people do NOT trust GPS, because they've had experiences in which GPS steered them wrong. Some people do NOT trust the police, because they've had experiences with the police that make them seem untrustworthy.

Faith is not 'logical' in any situation. I've had Christians tell me that having faith in the bible will lead me to the truth. I've had Hindus tell me that having faith in the Vedas will lead me to the truth. Since BOTH Christianity and Hinduism can't be the 'truth', faith is clearly not a path to the truth. It becomes as reliable as flipping a coin.

QuestioningMind · May 5, 2018

74x12 said:
I see what you mean. You don't think God can be tested. I would agree with you in that hypothetical situation where God could not be tested. Then yes I gave bad analogies. Yet on a personal level God can be tested. So the scripture says "O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him." (Psalm 34:8)

So trust in God is answered according to the scriptures. The God of the Bible doesn't want people hanging on until they die to see the result of their faith. Of course if that is the only level of faith that people ever come to; then that was their choice.

Please provide an example of how I can 'test' for the reality of this God you claim exists.

The scriptures are hard to understand

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