Is Jesus the Archangel Michael ?

Apologetics said:

Phil did not understand what Jesus had said In John 14:8-9.

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Not yet fully maybe ...

Apologetics said:

Saying I will no longer speak to you in proverbs/figures of speech but will plainly(clearly )show you( explain to you) the Father.

I came out from God.( Not I am God) Notice he did not repeat If you've seen me youve seen the Father ( Because thats the proverb/Figure of speech)

Again I came forth from the Father ( Jesus spoken into Existence) and have come into the world Eph 3:11 ( His purpose for existing)
Dan 9:25 ( Messiah John 5:43 I am come in my fathers name, Ambassador.Representing his Father

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If Jesus came out from God then that means Jesus is God manifest. The appearing of God. Who comes out from God? Only His Word and His Spirit. (Psalm 104:30, John 14:26)

Jesus is bodily the Word made flesh. (John 1:14) and His Spirit is the holy Spirit of God who tabernacles within Him bodily. (Col. 2:8-9)

He is God manifest and it is a "great" mystery (1 Tim. 3:16) yet it is so. BTW the KJV says "God was manifest in the flesh" but other translations say "He was manifest". But that's beside my point here.

Now only the Spirit of God can reveal these things because just as then they are "hidden" with the Father since before the world was but revealed now through the grace of God.

74x12 said:

1. Keeping John 17:5 in context is the way to understand. There we find that the glory is revealed in the hour Jesus prays to receive it.

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You need to deal with the English language. The word Jesus used was Had. Had is past tense as in already experienced glory not future tense.

Thats exactly were you twist the passage.

You keep saying John 17:5 Jesus is praying to receive glory as in the future.

You need to deal with the English word Had its past tense.



Your completely wrong!!!!

74x12 said:

Jesus is Lord you know that. So you say you have two masters. Jesus said of God "Him only shalt thou serve" and Jesus said "One is your Master even Christ". So there is One God and Lord and Master of the church.

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once again you dont understand yet. Gen 41:40-45 Tell Me are they 2 Master here or 1

Your reading a picture The Majesty on High set in history about his relationship with His Son Jesus he created.

Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.

And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt.

And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it upon Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and put a gold chain about his neck;


And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt.

And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, I am Pharaoh, and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.

When you say Jesus as a human was God. Your saying Jesus is no more when He returned to heaven and God that was a human called Jesus returned to being The majesty on high.

Thats exactly what you are teaching. Its like the Catholic teaching of the trinity. God is 3 persons in one that manifests himself at different times as either the Son or the Holy Spirit or as God. They are never 3 separate beings But one being that manifests himself 3 different ways.

That is a lie . So in spite of all the passage where Jesus is portrayed as less than God. Because of the trinity or oneness teaching it cant be what it appears to be because then trinity or the oneness doctrine would be wrong and we caint let that happen.

74x12 said:

If Jesus came out from God then that means Jesus is God manifest. The appearing of God. Who comes out from God? Only His Word and His Spirit. (Psalm 104:30, John 14:26)

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You came out from you Father right? Does that make you your Father??

74x12 said:

People like you have a difficult time explaining how God the All powerful, Almighty took "power" to Himself and reigned when He was already the King of heaven and earth. We on the other hand know He did so in the Son of man Jesus Christ who is God manifest and said "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18)

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God Never took power to himself. Hes always been in control. So there is nothing difficult to explain.

Your problem is your stuck on the man made concept and thats exactly what it is a concept not scriptural that Jesus only became Jesus when he was born of Mary. What you call when God became a human. God never became a human.

Thats whats been taught ever since 325 the nicea Council. Which was nothing but a gathering of 3 generation apart from the Apostle. No eyewitness were there to verify the conclusion of the counsel. Those men were not funding Fathers of the Apstle Church.

They were the funding Fathers of The Roman Catholic Church. Not the Apostle Church . They were the result of the Falling away 2 Thess 2:3

So basically because of the counsels conclusion. When passages like John 20:17 Rev 3:12 and John 14:28. and many others(I know them All) are mentioned its an automatic response. Like Oh thats not what that appearance to be because we know for sure Jesus is God because the Counsel said so.

It would be like Catholics saying Peter passed his Apostleship of being the leader of the Church to succeeding Bishops of Roman Called the Peter Doctrine which created the Popes . If you questioned that doctrine from a scriptural basis. The response from the Catholic church is Its been a tradition for 15 hundred years so it cant be wrong!!

74x12 said:

Tell me is it easy for people to see that Jesus is separate from the Father in the scriptures???

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I believe there is no scripture that shows separation. Try one on me and I bet it will be a misinterpretation.

Apologetics said:

You came out from you Father right? Does that make you your Father??

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I believe that is not what John 14:20 says. It says that Jesus is in the Father not that He came out of Him. That is actually perspective because God is one.

74x12 said:

Sure okay, it's just the wording. Anyway He was born of the Spirit in the resurrection but that's another story.

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I believe I have no idea what you are talking about. The resurrection is neither a birth nor a matter of being born again in either of those concepts. It is a reincarnation.

74x12 said:

God shares His glory with no one. No idol, no angel or human. The glory of God can only be shared with Christ because Christ is God manifest. Even some of the Jews thought Jesus was stealing the glory of God when Jesus said "I and my Father are One". Those Jews could not believe it; but can you?


The holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. I do not believe that God is three persons. He is one Person. He has one Spirit which so happens to be very holy.

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I believe the logic is simple:

God is a person.
The Paraclete is God.
Therefore the Paraclete is a person.

Blessed of JEHOVAH said:

let me share with you what Jehovah shared with me through holy spirit.

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Let me share with you what the early Christian Church taught and proclaimed in the Nicene Creed and other places: God is a Trinity. The Jehovah's Witness movement did not appear for nearly 2,000 years after Jesus and the apostles. Seems like a long time for the Holy Spirit to finally get it correct. I'll prefer the early church as the definitive guide for what historical Christianity is.

Apologetics said:

When you say Jesus as a human was God. Your saying Jesus is no more when He returned to heaven and God that was a human called Jesus returned to being The majesty on high.

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No, He never stopped being the Majesty on High. God is omnipresent and the Son was God manifest in the flesh, but God was still in heaven. He can't not be God. And after the ascension; He is still the Son of man in heaven as we know He sits on the right hand until all His enemies are made His footstool. God can be in two or innumerable places at once.

Apologetics said:

Thats exactly what you are teaching. Its like the Catholic teaching of the trinity. God is 3 persons in one that manifests himself at different times as either the Son or the Holy Spirit or as God. They are never 3 separate beings But one being thaat manifests himself 3 different ways.

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So? They're actually right that He manifests Himself 3 ways and even more than 3 ways. I disagree that they are "distinct persons" however.

Apologetics said:

That is a lie . So in spite of all the passage where Jesus is portrayed as less than God. Because of the trinity or oneness teaching it cant be what it appears to be because then trinity or the oneness doctrine would be wrong and we caint let that happen.

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Just as God manifests Himself. He has to manifest Himself to anyone before they believe that as Jesus claimed; He is One with the Father. In 1 John 3:1-6 the Father was manifest in the world and world knew Him not.

Apologetics said:

God Never took power to himself. Hes always been in control. So there is nothing difficult to explain.

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So you know more than the holy scriptures? The holy scriptures say that God(the Almighty) took power to Himself and reigned. (Revelation 11:17)

Apologetics said:

Your problem is your stuck on the man made concept and thats exactly what it is a concept not scriptural that Jesus only became Jesus when he was born of Mary. What you call when God became a human. God never became a human.

Thats whats been taught ever since 325 the nicea Council. Which was nothing but a gathering of 3 generation apart from the Apostle. No eyewitness were there to verify the conclusion of the counsel. Those men were not funding Fathers of the Apstle Church.

They were the funding Fathers of The Roman Catholic Church. Not the Apostle Church . They were the result of the Falling away 2 Thess 2:3

So basically because of the counsels conclusion. When passages like John 20:17 Rev 3:12 and John 14:28. and many others(I know them All) are mentioned its an automatic response. Like Oh thats not what that appearance to be because we know for sure Jesus is God because the Counsel said so.

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There was actually a Oneness doctrine long before the Council of Nicaea. The Council of Nicaea was against the Oneness doctrine as well as against the Arian doctrine (which is what I suppose you support.) You need to look up Sabellius and he was not the only one teaching a Oneness doctrine either. There were Oneness teachers before even him. And you can't trust the abuses of his enemies either.

Muffled said:

I believe I have no idea what you are talking about. The resurrection is neither a birth nor a matter of being born again in either of those concepts. It is a reincarnation.

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See Colossians 1:18 which calls Him the firstbegotten from the dead. And this is when He was raised by the Spirit (Romans 8:11) In other words He was born again from the dead by the holy Spirit. That's what I meant.

Muffled said:

I believe there is no scripture that shows separation. Try one on me and I bet it will be a misinterpretation.

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In a nutshell; I agree.

74x12 said:

No, He never stopped being the Majesty on High. God is omnipresent and the Son was God manifest in the flesh, but God was still in heaven. He can't not be God. And after the ascension; He is still the Son of man in heaven as we know He sits on the right hand until all His enemies are made His footstool. God can be in two or innumerable places at once.

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Your still confused. Jesus is not and never has been and never will be the Majesty on High. Heb 1:3 Makes that abundantly clear Thats exactly what the writer portrays.

The following is where the oneness doctrine strays away from the truth of the scriptures

Jesus has to not exist until he was born of Mary. Otherwise Jesus would be a separate individual apart from God

But John 1:30 John the Baptist gave great clarity on the mater.

This is he( Jesus his cousin) of whom I said, After me cometh a man ( Jesus His cousin) which is preferred before me: for he was before me. We know Jesus was born 6 months after John the baptist.

Yet the Baptist declares that Jesus existed before John the Baptist was born.

Again John 6:38 Jesus says of himself I came down from Heaven

Again Jesus own words John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

That before , was the Glory he had before the world was John 17:5

Jesus declares that he as Jesus not the Majesty on High existed before he came to earth in these passages.

When he says where he was before John 6:62,John 17:5 Where was he before???. AT the Right hand of the Majesty on High.Heb 1:3

He left the right hand of the Majesty on High to fulfill the Majesty on Highs will . Ive come not to do my own will be the will of him that sent me.John 6:38

After his crucifixion he return to the right hand of the majesty on high where he was before John 6:62,John 17:5


You teach that Jesus did not exist until he was born of Mary.

These passages debunk that teaching.

The core of your belief resides and depends on Jesus not existing until he was born of Mary. But John 1:30 , John 6:62 and John 6:38 do not support that teaching.

In order for the oneness and trinity doctrine to function. The have to ignore the obvious in these passages and make them fit there narrative.

The narrative being. Because we know that Jesus is God, and that God does not give his glory to another these passages really mean that God manifests himself at different times as God the Son for the trinity or the Son of God for the oneness teachings

The oneness and trinity believers cant take these passages for what they actually portray and say. Like Wow Jesus existed before he came to earth.

No they have to make it fit their narrative, otherwise there doctrine would be wrong and they cant let that happen. Defend the traditions at all costs.

Apologetics said:

Your still confused. Jesus is not and never has been and never will be the Majesty on High. Heb 1:3 Makes that abundantly clear Thats exactly what the writer portrays.

The following is where the oneness doctrine strays away from the truth of the scriptures

Jesus has to not exist until he was born of Mary. Otherwise Jesus would be a separate individual apart from God

But John 1:30 John the Baptist gave great clarity on the mater.

This is he( Jesus his cousin) of whom I said, After me cometh a man ( Jesus His cousin) which is preferred before me: for he was before me. We know Jesus was born 6 months after John the baptist.

Yet the Baptist declares that Jesus existed before John the Baptist was born.

Again John 6:38 Jesus says of himself I came down from Heaven

Again Jesus own words John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

That before , was the Glory he had before the world was John 17:5

Jesus declares that he as Jesus not the Majesty on High existed before he came to earth in these passages.

When he says where he was before John 6:62,John 17:5 Where was he before???. AT the Right hand of the Majesty on High.Heb 1:3

He left the right hand of the Majesty on High to fulfill the Majesty on Highs will . Ive come not to do my own will be the will of him that sent me.John 6:38

After his crucifixion he return to the right hand of the majesty on high where he was before John 6:62,John 17:5


You teach that Jesus did not exist until he was born of Mary.

These passages debunk that teaching.

The core of your belief resides and depends on Jesus not existing until he was born of Mary. But John 1:30 , John 6:62 and John 6:38 do not support that teaching.

In order for the oneness and trinity doctrine to function. The have to ignore the obvious in these passages and make them fit there narrative.

The narrative being. Because we know that Jesus is God, and that God does not give his glory to another these passages really mean that God manifests himself at different times as God the Son for the trinity or the Son of God for the oneness teachings

The oneness and trinity believers cant take these passages for what they actually portray and say. Like Wow Jesus existed before he came to earth.

No they have to make it fit their narrative, otherwise there doctrine would be wrong and they cant let that happen. Defend the traditions at all costs.

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There is no reason for me to explain the same scriptures over and over. I've already explained how Jesus came down from heaven etc.

But, I'm still waiting on many of the points that I brought up. Let's see you explain some passages for once. Like
1 John 3:1-6 indicating the Father was in the world. Isaiah 9:6 calling Jesus God. Zechariah 11 showing us that Jehovah is betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. Zechariah 12:10 showing us that it is Jehovah who is pierced. Which we know is about Jesus. (John 19:37) And there are so many other scriptures that indicate to us that Jesus is in fact God.

74x12 said:

There is no reason for me to explain the same scriptures over and over. I've already explained how Jesus came down from heaven etc.

But, I'm still waiting on many of the points that I brought up. Let's see you explain some passages for once. Like
1 John 3:1-6 indicating the Father was in the world. Isaiah 9:6 calling Jesus God. Zechariah 11 showing us that Jehovah is betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. Zechariah 12:10 showing us that it is Jehovah who is pierced. Which we know is about Jesus. (John 19:37) And there are so many other scriptures that indicate to us that Jesus is in fact God.

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1 John 3:1-6 No where says The father was in the world. But it does says that which was from the beginning. Also was with the Father. You see that word with. Follow the English language it indicate more than 1. It starts using the words from the beginning.The Majesty on High has no beginning but Jesus his first and only creation Rev 3:14 did. Before the worlds were created Jesus was spoken into existence John 1:30 John 6:62.John 6:38. Its all right there for you to deny!! These passage debunk oneness teaching that Jesus only existed after being born to Mary.

Again fellowship with the Father and the Son 2 Individuals 1 John 1:3

Besides Jesus always described the location of the majesty on high as in heaven. Luke 11:2 Our Father who is heaven. While Jesus his Son was on earth. And many such other passages.

Isaiah 9:6 Easy. The Hebrew word Elohim has many application Just like Theos does in the Greek. For instance 2 Cor 4:4 uses theos in regards to Satan the ruler of this world. Again in Psa 82:6 Elohim refers to Earthly rulers

In Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is perfectly described as the appointed ruler ( Mighty God)of the entire globe for 1000 years Ish 2:4 Jer 23:5 Dan 7:13-14. This one in-particular is very revealing for it shows one superior the ancient of days ( Majesty oh High) and one subordinate like the son of man (Jesus the Son of God) distinctly separate from the Majesty on high. as well as Mat 2:6

Zach 11 30 pieces of silver. There is no reference in the chapter about Jesus being God.

Zach 12:10 Thats easy Your referring to "and they shall look upon me. Go to Act 20:28 feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Now go to 1 John 1:7 the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanse us from all sin.

Its a simple explanation Zach 12:10 and Acts 20:28 are figures of speech which are in abundance through out the bible.
1 John 1:7 explains the figure of speech. The blood of Jesus Christ. Zach and Acts were referring to Jesus, Gods First and only creation ,spoken into existence before the world was John 17:5. Who exited before being born to Mary John 1:30 John 6:62 John 6:38

You see what Father or Mother would deny that thier son or daughter was not thier own flesh and blood. Its an expression used today everywhere.

Your interpretations of these passages are flawed because they are based upon presuppositions."a thing tacitly assumed beforehand at the beginning of a line of argument or course of action"

You see you read . I and my father are one. And immediately interpret it as You see Jesus is God because you have a presupposition that Jesus is God. But its a fiqure of speech. Im sure youve read John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, and again Gen 2:24 the two shall be one flesh. and many other passages All figures of speech.

I and my father are one is translated as the Majesty s will is my will. What ever the Majesty wants thats what I want.I agree with everything the Majesty wants.His laws are just and up right . What ever he commands I will be obedient to.

So it is with us isnt it. Do we not all that follow Jesus want what ever he wants. Do we not all agree that his ways are right and ours ways are wrong.

Again 1 Pet 3:8 be you all of one mind!!

Thus that makes us one with God and his Son.

Your still confused Jesus is not and never has been and never will be the Majesty on High

Through our conversations you have said that you were sharing revelation. I do not question your sincerity. But I would urge you to reevaluate your positions and get rid of presuppositions when you read the Bible Let it speak for itself. Recognize the many figures of speech the new testament writers used quite frequently. And interpret them accordingly. Dont take them at their face value for with in them are hidden truths. Exam eat my flesh drink my blood. Destroy this temple and I will build it again in 3 days.I am the bread from heaven. If you eye offend you pluck it out. Take up you cross and follow me. I am my Father are one. All figures of speech with hidden meaning.

Ive answer your questions.

Answer mine

In reference to you statement that I serve 2 masters and that you cant serve both Mat 6:24

Gen 41:40-45 Tell Me are they 2 Master here or 1

74x12 said:

There is no reason for me to explain the same scriptures over and over. I've already explained how Jesus came down from heaven etc.

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Your explanations are based purely on presuppositions and as a result those presupposition cause you to ignore the absolute obvious. John 1:30 the Man ( His cousin Jesus) was before John the Baptist. Jesus was born 6 months after John. Yet John Recognizes that His Cousin existed before his own birth

Again John 6:62. What if yo see the Son of Man where he was before. That is so glaringly plain to understand. The Son of Man Existed before he was born of Mary.

What you do is this. Since you presuppose that its a concluded matter that Jesus is God incarnate. The only way to interpret this passage is to say that in Prophecy he existed before.

But thats where you deviate and twist whats plain to understand because otherwise oneness doctrine would be wrong. And you caint let that happen.

John 6:38 I Came down from heaven not to do my own will. But the will of him who sent me.

Look at that closely. It says that before Jesus came to earth he had a will separate from the Majesty on High.

Thats the evidence you ignore that plainly teaches Jesus before he came to earth existed and had a will separate from the Majesty on High

The oneness Doctrine is blinding you from the truth.

74x12 said:

Isaiah 9:6 calling Jesus God

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I just one to add one more bit of evidence. In Gen 41:40-45 Just as Joseph was appointed ruler over all of Egypt by Pharaoh yet Joseph was not the Pharaoh.Pharaoh honored Joseph and gave him glory in as much he gave Joseph his own ring on his hand and a Gold chain about his neck., Made him to ride second Chariot and they cried bow the knee to Joseph. That was Glory Pharaoh Gave Joseph.Yet Joseph was not the pharaoh. Your most famous quote I will not give my glory to another is mistakenly interpreted.

A perfect picture of a future event that the Majesty on High the almighty,the lord God placed in history for us to read portraying The Majesty,s appointment of Jesus his only begotten creation before the world was ruler over all the earth Zach 14:9

Onother example in the bible of how Jesus is not ,never has been, nor ever will be the Majesty on High!!

Apologetics said:

Your explanations are based purely on presuppositions and as a result those presupposition cause you to ignore the absolute obvious. John 1:30 the Man ( His cousin Jesus) was before John the Baptist. Jesus was born 6 months after John. Yet John Recognizes that His Cousin existed before his own birth

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That's because you really don't understand how Jesus being spoken beforehand by God works. If Jesus is spoken first; then He is first. He is first because He is the Word that is spoken first by God. Before anything else God decided and spoke that Jesus would be born into the world. That He would suffer and die and rise from the dead. All of this makes Jesus exist before anyone else.

However you're claiming something that doesn't make sense because you want Jesus to be a man(Adam in Hebrew) before there was a man(Adam). So you contradict the scripture that says Jesus is the second man. You're making Him the first man before He was even born. So you're saying Jesus was already flesh and blood in heaven. The first man is earthy and that is Adam not Jesus.

Jesus is the second man (the last Adam) who is the Lord from heaven. (1 Corinthians 15:47) He was Spirit and became flesh and then returned and filled all things as the scripture says and this shows His omnipresence. (Ephesians 4:10)

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (1 Corinthians 15:45)

Apologetics said:

Again

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Apologetics said:

John 6:62. What if yo see the Son of Man where he was before. That is so glaringly plain to understand. The Son of Man Existed before he was born of Mary.

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Yes He was the Lord from heaven as 1 Corinthians 15:47 says. However to be the "Son of man" He must literally be born of a woman the descendant of Adam the first human. Jesus is not just called a "man" for nothing nor is He called the "Son of man" for no reason. He is literally those things because He was literally born a man of the seed of Adam and Eve the first humans. So you can quote scriptures all day that you think show you that Jesus "the man" existed before He was even born. But it changes nothing and I've noticed those verses before (trust me) As I've been trying to say there had to actually come a time in reality when He became what He already was in intent and in the plan and Word of God. As Luke 1:35 says "therefore" (For this reason) that holy thing that shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Greek word translated there as "therefore" is "dio" and means consequently:--for which cause, therefore, wherefore.

See this link to verify.

So Jesus certainly existed beforehand but in what form? He was not flesh and blood in heaven! He had to be born so that a body would exist that could live and die and rise from the dead.

Apologetics said:

What you do is this. Since you presuppose that its a concluded matter that Jesus is God incarnate. The only way to interpret this passage is to say that in Prophecy he existed before.

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It's not only in prophecy, Jesus is prophecy. In other words Jesus is the Word made flesh. But He is also the Lord from heaven. The Lord from heaven is God.

Apologetics said:

But thats where you deviate and twist whats plain to understand because otherwise oneness doctrine would be wrong. And you caint let that happen.

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I do not ignore any scripture when trying to understand the nature of God. I take them all together. If the scripture says even in one tiny detail that Jesus is God then it is so and cannot be broken. It's easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the scripture to be broken.

Apologetics said:

John 6:38 I Came down from heaven not to do my own will. But the will of him who sent me.

Look at that closely. It says that before Jesus came to earth he had a will separate from the Majesty on High.

Thats the evidence you ignore that plainly teaches Jesus before he came to earth existed and had a will separate from the Majesty on High

The oneness Doctrine is blinding you from the truth.

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Yes He had a human mind, will emotions. Obviously He was fully human. It does not say that He had a will separate from God before the incarnation. You're assuming things.

He clearly knew beforehand that He would have a human will. Therefore knowing beforehand He would have a will separate from the Father; therefore He says He came not to do His own (human) will. But the will of God. That's really obvious to me at least.