Onward Christian Soilder

When I was younger I wanted to join the military because my father joined and his father before him. Also my best friend joined the military too. But at that time I was also going to a Church and was studying my bible at the time. One of the reasons why I didn't join was the story in 1st Chronicles.

David wants to build a temple for the lord, But the lord say he can't because of all the wars that he fought and all the blood on his hands. From that little narrative I saw that God didn't approve of people of warfare serving him. Also the whole "Thou shall not kill" put it into light.

So I decided not to join the military because of those reasons. Later in life I was glad not too because I saw my friend come back with a few issues along with my father developing ptsd which really messed him up. Anyways my point is if their are any Christian followers who was in the military how did you justify your service to your country and your beliefs?

TheBannerofHomuraAkemi said:

From that little narrative I saw that God didn't approve of people of warfare serving him. Also the whole "Thou shall not kill" put it into light.

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G-d commands us to kill people a number of times. The Midianites. The Amorites. The Amalekites. Conquering the land of Israel. Saul was punished for not killing all the Amalekites.

Meanwhile, David is called G-d's servant in 1 Kings 11:13, 2 Kings 20:6, Psalms 89:4. If G-d doesn't want people of warfare serving Him, He probably wouldn't have called David His servant.

I can't help but feel that this is symptomatic of Christian cherry-picker-itis (an inflammation of the Christian cherry-picking organ, speak to your local HCP if you think you may suffer from these symptoms to find a treatment that's right for YOU).

TheBannerofHomuraAkemi said:

When I was younger I wanted to join the military because my father joined and his father before him. Also my best friend joined the military too. But at that time I was also going to a Church and was studying my bible at the time. One of the reasons why I didn't join was the story in 1st Chronicles.

David wants to build a temple for the lord, But the lord say he can't because of all the wars that he fought and all the blood on his hands. From that little narrative I saw that God didn't approve of people of warfare serving him. Also the whole "Thou shall not kill" put it into light.

So I decided not to join the military because of those reasons. Later in life I was glad not too because I saw my friend come back with a few issues along with my father developing ptsd which really messed him up. Anyways my point is if their are any Christian followers who was in the military how did you justify your service to your country and your beliefs?

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I can't say that I was ever in the military but I did work for a defence company, which a local baptist pastor took issue with. How could I justify it, he asked. How could he justify interrogating me, I could have replied, based on Roms 14? It is one of those things that are covered by Roms 14;2 "One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables."

One person's faith allows him to be involved in military matters, another's does not. It is not for the one to accuse the other, or vice versa, as it is a matter of conscience. It's a matter of conscience because as a soldier you are always under authority and you have to do what the authority says, not what you want to do. Not everyone could submit to that, especially if you're called to kill other Christians.

Thus there are "arguments" but those arguments are intellectually sophisticated, tending to the very nature of the State and its military machine. What is the nature of the State given the beasts of Rev 13? What is the State doing with its military might? How many "civilians" in Iraq and Syria have been killed by the State's military engaged in foreign adventures? Many is the answer. What has been the cumulative effect on Christians of foreign adventures in Iraq and Syria? To drastically reduce the Christian populations of those countries. That is the decision of politicians and generals, not of ordinary soldiers. Even in such a capacity, a man can be a Christian.

And Christians have even been deliberately killed by the USA, recently perhaps 200 or so of them in Syria, and that for the purpose of defending muslims. Isn't that disgraceful? Is a Christian really suppose to be allied with Islam in order to fight other Christians? That is what we have in Syria at present - the USA allied with militant Islam holding off the Assad regime that is favourable towards Christians, and Russia that is nominally a Christian country. It seems crazy to me.

So I personally would absolutely empathize with anyone who chose not to be a soldier in this day and age, and I would not now choose such a profession, but neither would I seek to judge anyone just for being a soldier.

Tumah said:

G-d commands us to kill people a number of times. The Midianites. The Amorites. The Amalekites. Conquering the land of Israel. Saul was punished for not killing all the Amalekites.

Meanwhile, David is called G-d's servant in 1 Kings 11:13, 2 Kings 20:6, Psalms 89:4. If G-d doesn't want people of warfare serving Him, He probably wouldn't have called David His servant.

I can't help but feel that this is symptomatic of Christian cherry-picker-itis (an inflammation of the Christian cherry-picking organ, speak to your local HCP if you think you may suffer from these symptoms to find a treatment that's right for YOU).

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7 And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God: 8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.

Then how would you explain that to mean. What is David trying to imply that God has said?

Also how would you explain away Exodus 20:13 when God commands you to kill people? Are those people who follow through with the commanded people doom to have sinned in God's sight

TheBannerofHomuraAkemi said:

7 And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God: 8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.

Then how would you explain that to mean. What is David trying to imply that God has said?

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The simple answer is that for whatever reason, building the Temple was contingent on it being divorced from bloodshed. Why that should be, we can guess. Maybe because the Temple was meant to bring life to the people, so it should not be connected to death. I don't know. But I do know, that the answer will not be found by ignoring significant sections of every book between Exodus and Kings.

Also how would you explain away Exodus 20:13 when God commands you to kill people?

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I wouldn't need to explain it away, you live with this issue daily. It is illegal to kill someone in whatever country you live in. It is not illegal to kill the enemy of your country when you are a soldier for your country engaged in war against another. The difference is between "killing" and "murder". "Killing" is legal, sanctioned killing which is permitted. Murder is illegal, unsanctioned killing, such as someone whom you have no authority to kill. So it is permitted for the court to kill those people whom G-d has commanded to kill for transgressing certain prohibitions under certain conditions. It's prohibited for me to knock on my neighbors door and shove my fire iron through his gallbladder.

Are those people who follow through with the commanded people doom to have sinned in God's sight

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If by "those people" you mean people who follow G-d's command to engage in war, then it wouldn't seem fair or logical to doom them for doing what G-d wants.

Tumah said:

I wouldn't need to explain it away, you live with this issue daily. It is illegal to kill someone in whatever country you live in. It is not illegal to kill the enemy of your country when you are a soldier for your country engaged in war against another. The difference is between "killing" and "murder". "Killing" is legal, sanctioned killing which is permitted. Murder is illegal, unsanctioned killing, such as someone whom you have no authority to kill. So it is permitted for the court to kill those people whom G-d has commanded to kill for transgressing certain prohibitions under certain conditions. It's prohibited for me to knock on my neighbors door and shove my fire iron through his gallbladder.


If by "those people" you mean people who follow G-d's command to engage in war, then it wouldn't seem fair or logical to doom them for doing what G-d wants.

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Everything you said reminds me of this quote "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." -Voltaire

The OT seems to be a War God narrative. It celebrates the conquests of the tribes of Israel &al.
The Jesus tales, on the other hand, seems more an anti-tribal exhortation to compassion.

"Christian soldier" strikes me as an oxymoron.

TheBannerofHomuraAkemi said:

Everything you said reminds me of this quote "It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." -Voltaire

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I guess Mr. Voltaire has difficulty with exceptions to rules. It is forbidden to kill, except when it isn't. It is forbidden ro drive above the speed limit on the highway, except when it isn't. Just about every law has it's exceptions and I think it's the mark of the foolish to not be able to differentiate.

TheBannerofHomuraAkemi said:

...Christian followers who was in the military how did you justify your service to your country and your beliefs?

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I think it depends greatly on what person does in military. It is different thing to go and attack to some country without just reason, or to defend own country from real attack. I believe it would be best not to kill people, but I think self-defense can be accepted.

Valjean said:

The OT seems to be a War God narrative. It celebrates the conquests of the tribes of Israel &al.
The Jesus tales, on the other hand, seems more an anti-tribal exhortation to compassion.

"Christian soldier" strikes me as an oxymoron.

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Well, Judaism is a tribal/ethnic religion and Yahweh is basically a tribal deity writ-large. Jesus was a rather ascetic, apocalyptic type. I think it was forbidden to Christians to join the military until they started making excuses for it when it became the state religion of the Empire and Augustine started coming up with his "just war" crap. I think there is a much stronger argument that Christians should be pacifists and not join the military.

Tumah said:

I guess Mr. Voltaire has difficulty with exceptions to rules. It is forbidden to kill, except when it isn't. It is forbidden ro drive above the speed limit on the highway, except when it isn't. Just about every law has it's exceptions and I think it's the mark of the foolish to not be able to differentiate.

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Couldn't that be related to the fact our brains is condition in way that Higher authority in this case religion is absolute and yet it so easy for society to justify that you can break the higher authority and reap no consequences. For a lack of better words it mind blows us.

But then again I think Mr. Voltaire would have nothing positive on this discussion since he hated both Judaism and Christianity.

1213 said:

I think it depends greatly on what person does in military. It is different thing to go and attack to some country without just reason, or to defend own country from real attack. I believe it would be best not to kill people, but I think self-defense can be accepted.

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Thats a lot of things to take into consideration. Me being in the USA I often find that a lot of our conflicts aren't justified enough for me to participate in and take another life.

1213 said:

I think it depends greatly on what person does in military. It is different thing to go and attack to some country without just reason, or to defend own country from real attack. I believe it would be best not to kill people, but I think self-defense can be accepted.

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When was the US military last used in self defense? Most armies are used to promote the special interests of a power elite.

TheBannerofHomuraAkemi said:

Couldn't that be related to the fact our brains is condition in way that Higher authority in this case religion is absolute and yet it so easy for society to justify that you can break the higher authority and reap no consequences. For a lack of better words it mind blows us.

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I have no idea what you are trying to say or how this relates to the discussion. I'm simply pointing out that all laws have exceptions. You don't question the exception that emergency vehicles have when they exceed the speed limit as being an example of human hypocrisy or inconsistency. There's no reason that exceptions to murder shouldn't exist as well.

Maybe the temple politicians just didn't like David as much. Solomon's drama makes David's seem positively pathetic and HE was approved to build the thing God said He didn't need.

TheBannerofHomuraAkemi said:

Thats a lot of things to take into consideration. Me being in the USA I often find that a lot of our conflicts aren't justified enough for me to participate in and take another life.

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I agree with that. And I think it is good choice that you have made.