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Take the Scriptures with a grain of salt

Spiderman

Veteran Member
When people start correcting people with Scripture, it is good to take it with a grain of salt. Scripture says a lot of things.

The Bible says, "Many will become Eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of God". Any volunteers?

Scripture says "Call no man your Father, while at the same time says "honor your Father and Mother" and Paul says, "I became your Father".

Scripture says no one has seen the face of God while at the same time saying Moses interacted with God face to face.

Scripture says those who believe in Christ will drink poison and it will not affect them. Any volunteers?

Scripture says "If you have the Faith of a mustard seed, you can move mountains". Anyone seen a mountain move?

Scripture says, "ask anything of the Father in my name and it will be done for you". Many people beg God incessantly for healing of various afflictions in the name of Jesus and healing doesn't take place. I've personally experienced this far too many times to count.

Scripture says "If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out". I know without a doubt that my eye causes me to sin. Should I pluck it? I kid you not, I was in a psyche ward with a patient who plucked out his eyes over a pornography addiction.

Scripture says those who believe in Christ will do his works and greater works. There are approximately 2 billion Christians in the world and I know not of a single one who is doing the works of Christ and greater works.

Scripture says it is shameful for a man to have long hair, yet all the depictions of Christ that I have seen show him with long hair.

Scripture says it is wrong for a woman to talk in Church.

Scripture says a lot of things.

Scripture is full of hyperbole's, poetry, parables, and symbolism that isn't supposed to be taken literally. Scripture contradicts itself, has lost some meaning through translation, and much of the context is lost, especially if you don't understand the language and culture of when it was being said.

Hence, the need for a Church. Christ knew people would misinterpret the Scriptures, so he set up a visible authority to settle disputes about Doctrine and Scriptural interpretation.

The Bible does not teach that the Bible is the only and final authority for settling Doctrinal disputes and interpretation of Scripture.

The first Christians were not Bible Christians. If the Bible was to be a final authority, surely Christ would have left people with such a book. He didn't. The Bible came hundreds of years later, and the printing press came much later. Most people were illiterate anyway until very recently in our history. The Catholic Church decided the Canon of the first Bible at the Councils of Rome, Carthage, and Hippo. The founder of the Protestant Reformation was a Catholic Priest, Hence, Protestants get their Bible from the Catholic Church and the Bible is a Catholic book.

The early Christians relied on the Church. The Apostles didn't go around handing out Bibles and Scriptures to everyone.

In the council of Jerusalem, Acts 15, The Apostles decided that following the law of Moses and circumcision was no longer necessary. That decision totally contradicted the Scriptures of that time. They, as the Church Hierarchy, and visible authority on earth, were guided by the Holy Spirit, and did not use the Scriptures as the infallible guide for their decision, because the Scriptures at that time totally went against their decision.

This idea that the Bible is the final authority and only source of Theological truth was not practiced by any Church before the 16th century. Practicing this Doctrine is very common now a days but it is totally unbiblical. If the Bible is to be the final authority, then there should be something in the Bible that states that the Bible is the final authority, and there is nothing that states that.

Protestant Churches were founded by men, and their foundation is an Unbiblical man-invented Doctrine that destroys itself.

The Catholic Church however dates back to Christ, and the claim that someone other than Christ founded the Catholic Church has been repeatedly refuted.

The World book encyclopedia shows an unbreakable chain of Bishops of Rome (Popes) dating back to the first century. The Second Pope was Saint Linus in 67 AD.

The Protestant reformation splintered Christianity into thousands of denominations, because the Bible is such a confusing book to begin with and was never supposed to be the sole rule for sacred Theology.

Before the 16th century there were Schisms, but those Schisms were not Protestant anymore than the Eastern Orthodox Churches are Protestant.

For many centuries, there was one Christian Church and you don't have to be a Historian to know it was the Catholic Church.

Now, am I telling you you should convert to Catholicism? Absolutely not! If you have found a path that better works for you, follow your heart, follow your vocation, follow your calling....if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

What bothers me though, is that so many people who only follow the Bible, attack people for not following their interpretation of Scripture, and say that they are unsaved and going to Hell. I started a thread on a Baptist forum saying that good people who follow their conscience but never heard of Christ still have the possibility of salvation, and people began quoting the Scriptures to me and saying that everyone who never accepted Jesus as Lord and savior will go to hell for all eternity. That is simply disgusting, depressing, and the epitome of unjust! Yet it is a belief that is strangely prevalent due to people following the man-made, invented, solascriptura Doctrine.

Any thoughts?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

WalterTrull

Godfella
I find the scriptures very comforting, allowing they contain much simile, metaphor, and not just a little hyperbole. I have often said: "Hey! that's just like..." I often find science comforting in the same manner.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
When people start correcting people with Scripture, it is good to take it with a grain of salt. Scripture says a lot of things.

The Bible says, "Many will become Eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of God". Any volunteers?

Scripture says "Call no man your Father, while at the same time says "honor your Father and Mother" and Paul says, "I became your Father".

Scripture says no one has seen the face of God while at the same time saying Moses interacted with God face to face.

Scripture says those who believe in Christ will drink poison and it will not affect them. Any volunteers?

Scripture says "If you have the Faith of a mustard seed, you can move mountains". Anyone seen a mountain move?

Scripture says, "ask anything of the Father in my name and it will be done for you". Many people beg God incessantly for healing of various afflictions in the name of Jesus and healing doesn't take place. I've personally experienced this far too many times to count.

Scripture says "If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out". I know without a doubt that my eye causes me to sin. Should I pluck it? I kid you not, I was in a psyche ward with a patient who plucked out his eyes over a pornography addiction.

Scripture says those who believe in Christ will do his works and greater works. There are approximately 2 billion Christians in the world and I know not of a single one who is doing the works of Christ and greater works.

Scripture says it is shameful for a man to have long hair, yet all the depictions of Christ that I have seen show him with long hair.

Scripture says it is wrong for a woman to talk in Church.

Scripture says a lot of things.

Scripture is full of hyperbole's, poetry, parables, and symbolism that isn't supposed to be taken literally. Scripture contradicts itself, has lost some meaning through translation, and much of the context is lost, especially if you don't understand the language and culture of when it was being said.

Hence, the need for a Church. Christ knew people would misinterpret the Scriptures, so he set up a visible authority to settle disputes about Doctrine and Scriptural interpretation.

The Bible does not teach that the Bible is the only and final authority for settling Doctrinal disputes and interpretation of Scripture.

The first Christians were not Bible Christians. If the Bible was to be a final authority, surely Christ would have left people with such a book. He didn't. The Bible came hundreds of years later, and the printing press came much later. Most people were illiterate anyway until very recently in our history. The Catholic Church decided the Canon of the first Bible at the Councils of Rome, Carthage, and Hippo. The founder of the Protestant Reformation was a Catholic Priest, Hence, Protestants get their Bible from the Catholic Church and the Bible is a Catholic book.

The early Christians relied on the Church. The Apostles didn't go around handing out Bibles and Scriptures to everyone.

In the council of Jerusalem, Acts 15, The Apostles decided that following the law of Moses and circumcision was no longer necessary. That decision totally contradicted the Scriptures of that time. They, as the Church Hierarchy, and visible authority on earth, were guided by the Holy Spirit, and did not use the Scriptures as the infallible guide for their decision, because the Scriptures at that time totally went against their decision.

This idea that the Bible is the final authority and only source of Theological truth was not practiced by any Church before the 16th century. Practicing this Doctrine is very common now a days but it is totally unbiblical. If the Bible is to be the final authority, then there should be something in the Bible that states that the Bible is the final authority, and there is nothing that states that.

Protestant Churches were founded by men, and their foundation is an Unbiblical man-invented Doctrine that destroys itself.

The Catholic Church however dates back to Christ, and the claim that someone other than Christ founded the Catholic Church has been repeatedly refuted.

The World book encyclopedia shows an unbreakable chain of Bishops of Rome (Popes) dating back to the first century. The Second Pope was Saint Linus in 67 AD.

The Protestant reformation splintered Christianity into thousands of denominations, because the Bible is such a confusing book to begin with and was never supposed to be the sole rule for sacred Theology.

Before the 16th century there were Schisms, but those Schisms were not Protestant anymore than the Eastern Orthodox Churches are Protestant.

For many centuries, there was one Christian Church and you don't have to be a Historian to know it was the Catholic Church.

Now, am I telling you you should convert to Catholicism? Absolutely not! If you have found a path that better works for you, follow your heart, follow your vocation, follow your calling....if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

What bothers me though, is that so many people who only follow the Bible, attack people for not following their interpretation of Scripture, and say that they are unsaved and going to Hell. I started a thread on a Baptist forum saying that good people who follow their conscience but never heard of Christ still have the possibility of salvation, and people began quoting the Scriptures to me and saying that everyone who never accepted Jesus as Lord and savior will go to hell for all eternity. That is simply disgusting, depressing, and the epitome of unjust! Yet it is a belief that is strangely prevalent due to people following the man-made, invented, solascriptura Doctrine.

Any thoughts?

It's just part of the division Paul spoke of in Galatians. The catholic ideology was conceived by the Pharisee's who wanted the OT to define the Gospel. Christ says enough in Canon not to follow the OT and much more in non canon Christian scriptures to drop the OT thinking. Even Matthew 17:1-9 the Holy Spirit tells us who to listen to. And it wasn't Moses or Isaiah.

Just my perspective.
 
I thought, "wonderful, you're on the right track." Then you started talking about the catholic church. You must be kidding right? Do you know how many dumb things the catholics have done in history? They are not led by a holy spirit. They put people under arrest for saying the world revolves around the sun. They burnt people for saying wine and bread does not become blood and flesh. They molest little kids.
You seem like an intelligent person. Take one more step and see that all religion is ridiculous.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
I thought, "wonderful, you're on the right track." Then you started talking about the catholic church. You must be kidding right? Do you know how many dumb things the catholics have done in history? They are not led by a holy spirit. They put people under arrest for saying the world revolves around the sun. They burnt people for saying wine and bread does not become blood and flesh. They molest little kids.
You seem like an intelligent person. Take one more step and see that all religion is ridiculous.
Catholics have done terrible things, but nothing that the magisterium or Catechism teaches supports those acts. The Church is made up of sinners and that is what sinners do is sin. The Catholic Church has also done more to feed and clothe and give shelter to the needy and educate people and care for the sick than any other institution. The Catholic Church builds hospitals, schools, homeless shelters, missions, and soup kitchens and preaches the corporal works of mercy, that we are to love our neighbors, care for the sick, and what we do for the least of Christ's people, we do for him.

Yes, I agree that I don't agree with everything the Catholic Church teaches and some of it sounds stupid to me, but I find much wisdom, understanding, maturity, charity, and strength in the writings of the Saints, the Eucharist, the Sacrament of confession, and the Rosary.

Regarding pedophiles, the rate of pedophilia is just as prevalent among pastors of other denominations and far more prevalent among public school teachers. Nothing the Church teaches permits or encourages such behavior, and harshly condemns it. The Church is made up of sinners, so they are going to sin. The scandals in the Catholic Church is the result of Catholics not being faithful to their duties as Catholics. If Catholics actually followed the teachings of the Church and priests were faithful to their vows, there would be no pedophiles whatsoever.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
This thread is in response to various claims that solascriptura Christians make, and in response to @Deeje and others claiming the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon, not an attempt to convert people to Catholicism. If you find a way that fits better with you, I respect that (up until the point you start making ludicrous statements like a meek, humble, charitable, generous, compassionate, peaceful person who never heard of Jesus is going to hell or calling the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
This thread is in response to various claims that solascriptura Christians make, and in response to @Deeje and others claiming the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon, not an attempt to convert people to Catholicism.

Whoa! I never said that the Catholic church is Babylon the great.

If you read in Revelation where it describes the "harlot" that God prompts the political elements to eliminate from existence, you will see why this wicked and immoral "city" is so much more than just the Church of Rome.

Starting in Revelation 14:6-7 it says: “Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. 7 And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.” (ESV)

This is an announcement of impending judgment...the time for Jesus to return and to begin to exercise his authority over the earth in the final days of this present system...... God's Kingdom is about to "come" and take over the rulership of mankind, so that God's will can be done "on earth as it is in heaven." (Daniel 2:44) It is what Christians have been praying for since Christ walked the earth. (Matthew 6:9-10)

After gathering the "chosen ones", (144,000 who will rule with him in heaven. Revelation 14:1, 4) Jesus turns his attention to the one element on earth that is the most disgusting to him and his Father....false religion.
The angel says to John.....”She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, she who made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality!”

This "fall" is not her destruction just yet, but her exposure, in the time of the end, that reveals false religion of every description (including counterfeit Christianity) for what it truly is.....like an immoral harlot to God..."sleeping" with his enemies.

When Israel fell to worshipping false gods, Jehovah called it "adultery", which in Israel was a capital offense.
This was spiritual adultery....going after other gods. (Exodus 20:3)

The angel went on to say......
"Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons,
a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast.
For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living.”


Look at this description.....could God get more descriptive in his loathing for this immoral harlot? False worship is like a dwelling place for demons and every unclean thing....its "wine" given in a golden cup of spiritual poison.

There are three dominant elements to satan's rulership over this earth. The political, commercial and religious.....all three control most of the world's population and influence the lives of everyone in ways that are not positive. All three are in bed together in their domination of mankind. Its a mutually beneficial arrangement....they all support each other. That is why it is a shock for Babylon the great to be attacked by her former 'lovers'.

Revelation 17:1-6....."Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.” 3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. 5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations.” 6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus."

This "prostitute" "is "seated on many waters" arrayed in "purple and scarlet"...the angel explains....

"And the angel said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. 16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, 17 for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.” (Revelation 17:15-18)

This is actually God's judgment, but the political elements will think it is their own idea to completely destroy her.

The woman has "dominion over the kings of the earth" which describes her widespread influence over "peoples and multitudes and nations and languages". This is a global empire.

The political elements are very 'intimate' with this harlot, with populations that have supported their political leaders in heinous acts of bloodshed with the full approval of their religious leaders.

I believe that we are in the final part of what Revelation is describing. The waters (people supporting religion) are drying up. A great many will rejoice at her demise...quite a few of them are on this site.

If you find a way that fits better with you, I respect that (up until the point you start making ludicrous statements like a meek, humble, charitable, generous, compassionate, peaceful person who never heard of Jesus is going to hell or calling the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon)

OK...when did I ever mention "going to hell"? I do not believe in such a place. "Hell" (hades or sheol) in the Bible is simply the common grave...we all go there. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) It is a place of rest, not torture. Jesus will wake the dead and lead the teachable ones to everlasting life. (John 5:28, 29)

The God I serve is not an uncaring despot. If a person is a "meek, humble, charitable, generous, compassionate, peaceful person who never heard of Jesus", then God will educate that person and give him/her every opportunity to get to know him. There will never be injustice carried out by the one who invented justice. It is not possible.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
OK...when did I ever mention "going to hell"? I do not believe in such a place. "Hell" (hades or sheol) in the Bible is simply the common grave...we all go there. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) It is a place of rest, not torture. Jesus will wake the dead and lead the teachable ones to everlasting life. (John 5:28, 29)

You might want to quote John 5:29, and not make up your own version

If you read in Revelation where it describes the "harlot" that God prompts the political elements to eliminate from existence, you will see why this wicked and immoral "city" is so much more than just the Church of Rome.

It would be helpful if you give a reference to your "harlot". Babylon the Great was mother of harlots. The Roman church would be just one of many, and the Protestants, would simply be harlot daughters of the Roman church. The "harlot" of Revelation 17:16, would be the "harlot" Judah.

It is the "strong angel" who metaphorically throws Babylon into the sea (Rev 18:21). Per Isaiah 22:15-25, it is the heir of Peter, the pope, who will "fall", and those hanging on to him, will be cut off (Isaiah 22:25).

.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Whoa! I never said that the Catholic church is Babylon the great.

If you read in Revelation where it describes the "harlot" that God prompts the political elements to eliminate from existence, you will see why this wicked and immoral "city" is so much more than just the Church of Rome.

Starting in Revelation 14:6-7 it says: “Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. 7 And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.” (ESV)

This is an announcement of impending judgment...the time for Jesus to return and to begin to exercise his authority over the earth in the final days of this present system...... God's Kingdom is about to "come" and take over the rulership of mankind, so that God's will can be done "on earth as it is in heaven." (Daniel 2:44) It is what Christians have been praying for since Christ walked the earth. (Matthew 6:9-10)

After gathering the "chosen ones", (144,000 who will rule with him in heaven. Revelation 14:1, 4) Jesus turns his attention to the one element on earth that is the most disgusting to him and his Father....false religion.
The angel says to John.....”She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, she who made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality!”

This "fall" is not her destruction just yet, but her exposure, in the time of the end, that reveals false religion of every description (including counterfeit Christianity) for what it truly is.....like an immoral harlot to God..."sleeping" with his enemies.

When Israel fell to worshipping false gods, Jehovah called it "adultery", which in Israel was a capital offense.
This was spiritual adultery....going after other gods. (Exodus 20:3)

The angel went on to say......
"Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons,
a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast.
For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living.”


Look at this description.....could God get more descriptive in his loathing for this immoral harlot? False worship is like a dwelling place for demons and every unclean thing....its "wine" given in a golden cup of spiritual poison.

There are three dominant elements to satan's rulership over this earth. The political, commercial and religious.....all three control most of the world's population and influence the lives of everyone in ways that are not positive. All three are in bed together in their domination of mankind. Its a mutually beneficial arrangement....they all support each other. That is why it is a shock for Babylon the great to be attacked by her former 'lovers'.

Revelation 17:1-6....."Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.” 3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. 5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations.” 6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus."

This "prostitute" "is "seated on many waters" arrayed in "purple and scarlet"...the angel explains....

"And the angel said to me, “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. 16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, 17 for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. 18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.” (Revelation 17:15-18)

This is actually God's judgment, but the political elements will think it is their own idea to completely destroy her.

The woman has "dominion over the kings of the earth" which describes her widespread influence over "peoples and multitudes and nations and languages". This is a global empire.

The political elements are very 'intimate' with this harlot, with populations that have supported their political leaders in heinous acts of bloodshed with the full approval of their religious leaders.

I believe that we are in the final part of what Revelation is describing. The waters (people supporting religion) are drying up. A great many will rejoice at her demise...quite a few of them are on this site.



OK...when did I ever mention "going to hell"? I do not believe in such a place. "Hell" (hades or sheol) in the Bible is simply the common grave...we all go there. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) It is a place of rest, not torture. Jesus will wake the dead and lead the teachable ones to everlasting life. (John 5:28, 29)

The God I serve is not an uncaring despot. If a person is a "meek, humble, charitable, generous, compassionate, peaceful person who never heard of Jesus", then God will educate that person and give him/her every opportunity to get to know him. There will never be injustice carried out by the one who invented justice. It is not possible.
And there is no evidence that Jehovah's witnesses existed until 1879. If God is such a trustworthy guide, why did he leave the world in error for that many centuries before giving them the truth in 1879?

Jehovah's witnesses follow a man-made Theology that didn't exist before 1879.

The Catholic Church dates back to the time of Christ, and for centuries, there was one Church in the world teaching this (what is necessary for salvation):

Romans 10:9

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

The Catholic Church preaches what is necessary for salvation, yet people condemn the Church as being the "Bride of Satan" "Mother of harlots". Absolutely ridiculous!

Funny, if the Catholic Church is so evil, why do you trust the Bible? The Catholic Church put the first Christian Bible together at the councils of Rome, Carthage, and Hippo, and for centuries, the Catholic Church was the only Church on earth that was preaching the word of God and Catholic Monks were putting Bibles together, writing the whole Old and New Testament by hand because there was no printing press.

Then after the Bible was written, the Church would investigate to make sure there were no errors contained in it. The Bible is a Catholic book! For centuries there was one Church on the face of the earth that was creating Bibles and preaching the word of God.

You get your Bible from the Catholic church! The institution that you condemn as "evil", "Pagan", and "Satanic!


You make God out to be a pitiful Shepherd and guide. The Holy Spirit didn't let the Church that Jesus founded on Peter go completely astray and then restore it in 1879. How is a God that does that to his people trustworthy in any way?? Not to mention it totally makes a joke of his promise "Upon this rock I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You might want to quote John 5:29, and not make up your own version

John 5:28-29 (ESV)..."28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

What do I need to explain? The resurrection is a physical restoration to life performed by Jesus for all who are in their tombs. (just like he did for Lazarus) This is all the dead from the time of Abel, the majority of whom have never known about the true God or his Christ. The resurrection is a time of education and judgment. Those who were already believers in pre-Christian times will be among the "righteous" as will all who have died faithful leading up to the present.....but the "unrighteous" are mostly those who need educating in Jehovah's ways...this will be a judgment period for them. A time where they will have opportunity to be granted everlasting life based on their choices out of their own free will.

The wicked however will not see life again. "Gehenna" was a symbol of everlasting death....an opposite to everlasting life. What God offered humanity right from the start was only a choice between "life and death"....."heaven and hell" was an invention of false religion (originating in Babylon) and adopted by Christendom.

It would be helpful if you give a reference to your "harlot". Babylon the Great was mother of harlots. The Roman church would be just one of many, and the Protestants, would simply be harlot daughters of the Roman church.

Yes, I agree but false worship spawned many "daughters". The common threads that run through all false religion betray a common origin. These include a multiplicity or trinity of gods....belief in an immortal soul that lives on after the death of the body....an eternal fiery hell for the wicked.....and beliefs attached to these basic teachings that were embellished in various cultures as time went on.

The "harlot" of Revelation 17:16, would be the "harlot" Judah.

Revelation is about "the Lord's day" which we believe is the time we are living in now, a time when Christ was enthroned as king, and the features of the sign that he gave to indicate the start of his rulership became evident. (Daniel 7:13-14; Matthew 24:3-14) It is only after Christ's enthronement that his authority is made complete. His first act as King was to cleanse the heavens.

Revelation 12:7-12..."Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

The devil and his hordes were evicted from heaven resulting in great rejoicing for the heavenly members of God's spiritual family, but woe for us on earth as the demonic forces spread their evil agenda earth-wide, causing bloodshed and strife on an unprecedented scale during these last days.

It is the "strong angel" who metaphorically throws Babylon into the sea (Rev 18:21).

It is true that God is the one responsible for Babylon's demise, but he uses earthly forces to accomplish it.
Rev 18:21..."Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying,
“So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more".


This was illustrative of Babylon's final end. It is the 10 horns and the wild beast who carry out God's judgment, before he carries out judgment on them. (Revelation 17:12-18)


Per Isaiah 22:15-25, it is the heir of Peter, the pope, who will "fall", and those hanging on to him, will be cut off (Isaiah 22:25).

I see no reference to "Peter's heir" here or mention of the pope. The office of Pontifex Maximus was a pagan Roman title that came to be given to the Pope of the Catholic church. There was no pope in original Christianity. Jesus told his followers not to give themselves titles.
"Call no man your father on earth".
(Matthew 23:8-12)

I see in Isaiah 22 a pronouncement upon Jerusalem. In the face of the siege that Isaiah describes, what are the inhabitants of Jerusalem doing? As God’s covenant people, are they crying out to Jehovah to save them? No, they are showing a very unwise attitude, one like that found today among many who claim to worship God.

Jerusalem was pictorial of Christendom in many ways, but I do not see any reference to the pope in this passage of scripture.

That may be your interpretation but it is not ours.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
John 5:28-29 (ESV)..."28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

What do I need to explain?

You need to explain your reeducation process that brings unrighteous dead into righteousness, which isn't included in John 5:29.

Revelation is about "the Lord's day" which we believe is the time we are living in now, a time when Christ was enthroned as king, and the features of the sign that he gave to indicate the start of his rulership became evident. (Daniel 7:13-14; Matthew 24:3-14) It is only after Christ's enthronement that his authority is made complete. His first act as King was to cleanse the heavens.

The "awesome day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31), has not arrived. The "ruler of the world", "has nothing in me". (John 14:30)

King James Bible John14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

I see no reference to "Peter's heir" here or mention of the pope.

Peter was put in charge of the "royal household" (Is 22:15) & (Mt 16:19), and given the "key of the house of David" (Is 22:22) & (Mt 16:19), whereas "when he opens so one will shut", and who made a resting "place for yourself in the rock" (Is 22:16) & (Mt 16:18), and whose heir, the pope, will, "in that day", "fall", and those "hanging on" to him will be "cut off" (Is 22:25).

"Call no man your father on earth". (Matthew 23:8-12)

Mt 23:8-12 says to call no man teacher, or leader, something you have apparently failed to heed. Those who do not heed the testimony of Yeshua, will, like Peter's heir, the pope, will "fall" (Mt 7:24-27). Peter himself, was "cast into a vast country/Rome, and deposed (Isaiah 22:19).
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
And there is no evidence that Jehovah's witnesses existed until 1879. If God is such a trustworthy guide, why did he leave the world in error for that many centuries before giving them the truth in 1879?

Jehovah's witnesses follow a man-made Theology that didn't exist before 1879.

PoD I do not want to get into a slanging match about Catholicism....but history and the Bible make it clear that apostasy was foretold for the church and apostasy is exactly what we saw. Why would Jesus and his apostles warn of this apostasy if it wasn't going to impact on what people believed? It was going to be so bad, that come the judgment, Jesus will say that he "never knew" many who claim him as their Lord. (Matthew 7:21-23) When Jesus said "never" he meant "not ever".

Jehovah has always had his witnesses. (Isaiah 43:10; Acts of the Apostles 1:8; Hebrews 12:1)

The Catholic Church dates back to the time of Christ, and for centuries, there was one Church in the world teaching this (what is necessary for salvation):

No, I'm afraid it doesn't date back to the time of Christ. There is no resemblance between original Christianity and the teachings of Jesus, compared to the birth of Christendom in the fourth century after Jesus died and the teachings that it adopted. Much of what the church introduced came from its pagan Roman roots.

Christianity does not have a nationality, nor does it have physical 'territory'. When gentiles were accepted into the Christian congregations in the first century, they took Christ's teachings with them all over the world. From small beginnings, a global brotherhood was to encompass the whole earth. They were to be "in" the world, but not "part" of it. From the time of its origin, "Roman Catholicism" has always been tied up with the world and its rulers.

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The mere fact that a religion calls itself by a geographical location is evidence that it isn't real Christianity IMV.

Funny, if the Catholic Church is so evil, why do you trust the Bible? The Catholic Church put the first Christian Bible together at the councils of Rome, Carthage, and Hippo, and for centuries, the Catholic Church was the only Church on earth that was preaching the word of God and Catholic Monks were putting Bibles together, writing the whole Old and New Testament by hand because there was no printing press.

You don't seem to understand that the Bible is God's word not the Church's word....in fact the church took the Bible away from the people and locked away its teachings for 1500 years, feeding her flocks Catholic dogma instead. I can assure you that not a word of scripture was written by a single Catholic. God can use even his enemies to accomplish his will.

Then after the Bible was written, the Church would investigate to make sure there were no errors contained in it. The Bible is a Catholic book! For centuries there was one Church on the face of the earth that was creating Bibles and preaching the word of God.

You get your Bible from the Catholic church! The institution that you condemn as "evil", "Pagan", and "Satanic!

Actually, the Bible is no more Catholic than Jesus was. By her conduct down through history, the church condemned herself. Her unscriptural doctrines have misled millions of people into believing that God is a three headed freak who can be in three places at once with each head talking to the other. That is not scriptural. Jews do not teach that God is a threesome, but that he is a single entity. (Deuteronomy 6:4) Jesus was Jewish and never once said he was God.

How many Catholic kids were scared half to death by the teaching if a fiery hell of eternal punishment? There is no such place in Christ's teachings. And the bloodshed and torture of the Inquisition! How unchristian was that!? Burning people alive for supposedly sinning against the church or even for possessing a Bible!

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Ask Catholic people who were raised in the 20th century about the systemic abuse of children in Catholic institutions all over the world, that continued almost right up to the present. It wasn't the odd case here and there, but the church system became a safe haven for homosexuals and pedophiles....it was never a safe haven for children.

You make God out to be a pitiful Shepherd and guide. The Holy Spirit didn't let the Church that Jesus founded on Peter go completely astray and then restore it in 1879. How is a God that does that to his people trustworthy in any way?? Not to mention it totally makes a joke of his promise "Upon this rock I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".

Actually God was a good Shepherd and guide because he taught through his word what followers of Christ were supposed to do. The church did not follow it. The apostasy was foretold well in advance and it began to take over shortly after the last apostle John died. God allowed it because the people were being tested as to their faith in God. Only the brave dared to question the self appointed authority of the church....the true martyrs...are the ones put to death by the very church who claimed to represent Christ.

As for letting the church go astray...that is exactly what God did. But it was also foretold that God would purify his people in "the time of the end". A cleansing and refining would take place, but the wicked would continue to act wickedly....they would understand nothing. I believe that we have seen that happen.

Daniel 12:4; 9-10...." But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.....He said, ‘Go your way, Daniel, for the words are to remain secret and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, cleansed, and refined, but the wicked shall continue to act wickedly. None of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand."

The "rock" upon which Jesus built his church was not Peter....it was Jesus himself. He is the chief cornerstone...the one the builders rejected. (Matthew 21:42-43)

I'm sorry but the RCC does not represent Christianity in any way to me.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
When people start correcting people with Scripture, it is good to take it with a grain of salt. Scripture says a lot of things.

The Bible says, "Many will become Eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of God". Any volunteers?
Obviously he meant metaphorically - i.e. stay unmarried.


Scripture says "Call no man your Father, while at the same time says "honor your Father and Mother" and Paul says, "I became your Father".
Paul did not say "call me father."

Scripture says no one has seen the face of God while at the same time saying Moses interacted with God face to face.
Moses was spoken to by the angel but never saw his face.

Scripture says those who believe in Christ will drink poison and it will not affect them. Any volunteers?
It has happened, but there is also a dispute over the genuineness of that gospel part in Mark.

Scripture says "If you have the Faith of a mustard seed, you can move mountains". Anyone seen a mountain move?
"Move mountains" should be taken metaphorically. It is a known Jewish idiom.

Scripture says, "ask anything of the Father in my name and it will be done for you". Many people beg God incessantly for healing of various afflictions in the name of Jesus and healing doesn't take place. I've personally experienced this far too many times to count.
Prayer must be accompanied by faith, of which many are deluded.

Scripture says "If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out". I know without a doubt that my eye causes me to sin. Should I pluck it? I kid you not, I was in a psyche ward with a patient who plucked out his eyes over a pornography addiction.
Jesus was saying that it would be better to die than persist in sin. Plucking out eyes would normally lead to death, one way or another, as if you have no eyes you will ordinarily starve to death or die of thirst very quickly, if the physical act of plucking out the eye does not itself kill you, which in many cases it will, especially in those days. He was saying that even death is preferential to death of the soul.

Scripture says those who believe in Christ will do his works and greater works. There are approximately 2 billion Christians in the world and I know not of a single one who is doing the works of Christ and greater works.
Christ may have converted people in their hundreds or thousands, but as I have pointed out in other posts, there are Christians, mostly now dead, who could claim to have converted people in their millions.

Scripture says it is shameful for a man to have long hair, yet all the depictions of Christ that I have seen show him with long hair.
We don't know. Long hair is relative anyway.

Scripture says it is wrong for a woman to talk in Church.
It still is.

Scripture says a lot of things.

Scripture is full of hyperbole's, poetry, parables, and symbolism that isn't supposed to be taken literally. Scripture contradicts itself, has lost some meaning through translation, and much of the context is lost, especially if you don't understand the language and culture of when it was being said.

Hence, the need for a Church. Christ knew people would misinterpret the Scriptures, so he set up a visible authority to settle disputes about Doctrine and Scriptural interpretation.
He set up a church but it is a wilderness church, as Rev makes clear.

The Bible does not teach that the Bible is the only and final authority for settling Doctrinal disputes and interpretation of Scripture.
Of course not, the bible teaches that it is profitable for such self-help. Profitable does not mean "sufficient" of itself.

The first Christians were not Bible Christians. If the Bible was to be a final authority, surely Christ would have left people with such a book. He didn't. The Bible came hundreds of years later, and the printing press came much later. Most people were illiterate anyway until very recently in our history. The Catholic Church decided the Canon of the first Bible at the Councils of Rome, Carthage, and Hippo. The founder of the Protestant Reformation was a Catholic Priest, Hence, Protestants get their Bible from the Catholic Church and the Bible is a Catholic book.
The church wasn't "Roman" when a canon was first proposed, but then mostly Greek, although that's not to say that Romans did not later define their own canons, which excluded traditional books like Enoch. There is no "official canon" for Christians. The Roman canon is not the same as the canons of other denominations.

The protestant reformation has been ongoing since the year dot, and Luther was not the "founder of the Protestant Reformation." Long before Luther there were many protestants against Rome, including the Bogomils, Waldenses or Waldensians and many, many others who lived their entire lives outside of Roman Catholicism. Even the monophysites and miaphysites of the 5th century can be accounted protestants, and numerous Christians who lived in the Persian and then moslem empires, beyond the Roman pale never owned Roman Catholicism. Even in Britain there were many Christians who owed nothing to Rome.

Luther was a very late-stage reformer, and in fact not a particularly good one by some accounts. What he did was reform, indirectly, Roman Catholicism itself via the counter reformation, and the Council of Trent, which was a response to him, whereas protestantism as a movement was on going in many other places in Europe and would have continued on its course without him. Thus protestantism in England owed very little to Luther.


The early Christians relied on the Church. The Apostles didn't go around handing out Bibles and Scriptures to everyone.

In the council of Jerusalem, Acts 15, The Apostles decided that following the law of Moses and circumcision was no longer necessary. That decision totally contradicted the Scriptures of that time. They, as the Church Hierarchy, and visible authority on earth, were guided by the Holy Spirit, and did not use the Scriptures as the infallible guide for their decision, because the Scriptures at that time totally went against their decision.

This idea that the Bible is the final authority and only source of Theological truth was not practiced by any Church before the 16th century. Practicing this Doctrine is very common now a days but it is totally unbiblical. If the Bible is to be the final authority, then there should be something in the Bible that states that the Bible is the final authority, and there is nothing that states that.

Protestant Churches were founded by men, and their foundation is an Unbiblical man-invented Doctrine that destroys itself.

The Catholic Church however dates back to Christ, and the claim that someone other than Christ founded the Catholic Church has been repeatedly refuted.

The World book encyclopedia shows an unbreakable chain of Bishops of Rome (Popes) dating back to the first century. The Second Pope was Saint Linus in 67 AD.

The Protestant reformation splintered Christianity into thousands of denominations, because the Bible is such a confusing book to begin with and was never supposed to be the sole rule for sacred Theology.

Before the 16th century there were Schisms, but those Schisms were not Protestant anymore than the Eastern Orthodox Churches are Protestant.

For many centuries, there was one Christian Church and you don't have to be a Historian to know it was the Catholic Church.

Now, am I telling you you should convert to Catholicism? Absolutely not! If you have found a path that better works for you, follow your heart, follow your vocation, follow your calling....if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

What bothers me though, is that so many people who only follow the Bible, attack people for not following their interpretation of Scripture, and say that they are unsaved and going to Hell. I started a thread on a Baptist forum saying that good people who follow their conscience but never heard of Christ still have the possibility of salvation, and people began quoting the Scriptures to me and saying that everyone who never accepted Jesus as Lord and savior will go to hell for all eternity. That is simply disgusting, depressing, and the epitome of unjust! Yet it is a belief that is strangely prevalent due to people following the man-made, invented, solascriptura Doctrine.
Any thoughts?
As Christ said "no-one comes to the Father except by me."
John 14:6

You may not like it, but it is what the great man said. If you don't agree, may be you're not a Christian.
 
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Spiderman

Veteran Member
PoD I do not want to get into a slanging match about Catholicism....but history and the Bible make it clear that apostasy was foretold for the church and apostasy is exactly what we saw. Why would Jesus and his apostles warn of this apostasy if it wasn't going to impact on what people believed? It was going to be so bad, that come the judgment, Jesus will say that he "never knew" many who claim him as their Lord. (Matthew 7:21-23) When Jesus said "never" he meant "not ever".

Jehovah has always had his witnesses. (Isaiah 43:10; Acts of the Apostles 1:8; Hebrews 12:1)



No, I'm afraid it doesn't date back to the time of Christ. There is no resemblance between original Christianity and the teachings of Jesus, compared to the birth of Christendom in the fourth century after Jesus died and the teachings that it adopted. Much of what the church introduced came from its pagan Roman roots.

Christianity does not have a nationality, nor does it have physical 'territory'. When gentiles were accepted into the Christian congregations in the first century, they took Christ's teachings with them all over the world. From small beginnings, a global brotherhood was to encompass the whole earth. They were to be "in" the world, but not "part" of it. From the time of its origin, "Roman Catholicism" has always been tied up with the world and its rulers.

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The mere fact that a religion calls itself by a geographical location is evidence that it isn't real Christianity IMV.



You don't seem to understand that the Bible is God's word not the Church's word....in fact the church took the Bible away from the people and locked away its teachings for 1500 years, feeding her flocks Catholic dogma instead. I can assure you that not a word of scripture was written by a single Catholic. God can use even his enemies to accomplish his will.



Actually, the Bible is no more Catholic than Jesus was. By her conduct down through history, the church condemned herself. Her unscriptural doctrines have misled millions of people into believing that God is a three headed freak who can be in three places at once with each head talking to the other. That is not scriptural. Jews do not teach that God is a threesome, but that he is a single entity. (Deuteronomy 6:4) Jesus was Jewish and never once said he was God.

How many Catholic kids were scared half to death by the teaching if a fiery hell of eternal punishment? There is no such place in Christ's teachings. And the bloodshed and torture of the Inquisition! How unchristian was that!? Burning people alive for supposedly sinning against the church or even for possessing a Bible!

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Ask Catholic people who were raised in the 20th century about the systemic abuse of children in Catholic institutions all over the world, that continued almost right up to the present. It wasn't the odd case here and there, but the church system became a safe haven for homosexuals and pedophiles....it was never a safe haven for children.



Actually God was a good Shepherd and guide because he taught through his word what followers of Christ were supposed to do. The church did not follow it. The apostasy was foretold well in advance and it began to take over shortly after the last apostle John died. God allowed it because the people were being tested as to their faith in God. Only the brave dared to question the self appointed authority of the church....the true martyrs...are the ones put to death by the very church who claimed to represent Christ.

As for letting the church go astray...that is exactly what God did. But it was also foretold that God would purify his people in "the time of the end". A cleansing and refining would take place, but the wicked would continue to act wickedly....they would understand nothing. I believe that we have seen that happen.

Daniel 12:4; 9-10...." But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.....He said, ‘Go your way, Daniel, for the words are to remain secret and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, cleansed, and refined, but the wicked shall continue to act wickedly. None of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand."

The "rock" upon which Jesus built his church was not Peter....it was Jesus himself. He is the chief cornerstone...the one the builders rejected. (Matthew 21:42-43)

I'm sorry but the RCC does not represent Christianity in any way to me.
Nazi Germany was a predominately Protestant country. There were plenty of Protestants who went along with Hitler. The Church had corruption in it even when Jesus was with it. Jesus did choose Judas to be one of his twelve. Pointing out corrupt things Catholics have done is not a reflection of the official teachings of the Church Magisterium. Protestants have just as much corruption, it's just Protestants are divided into thousands of denominations that are small in comparison, so you simply hear less about Protestant scandals, and there is less money to be made from lawsuits.

Also, early Christians century after century refuted your claims denying the Divinity of Christ.

The Holy Spirit is FULLY GOD. Peter says, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? …You have not lied to men but to God” (Acts 5:3-4). Here Peter equates lying to the Holy Spirit with lying to God himself. John writes of those who are “born of God” (1 Jn. 3:9), but elsewhere, he says we need to be born “of the Holy Spirit” (Jn. 3:5). Moreover, the Holy Spirit is eternal (Heb. 9:14; Jn. 14:16), omnipresent (Ps. 139:7-8), omniscient (1 Cor. 2:10-11), and he is lumped together with other known persons in the Godhead (1 Cor. 12:4-6; 2 Cor. 13:14; 1 Pet. 1:2; Mt. 28:19).

Third, the Son is FULLY GOD. Paul tells us that Jesus “existed in the form of God” (Phil. 2:6), and “in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form” (Col. 2:9). John writes, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (Jn. 1:1).

(Jn. 5:18) For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

(Jn. 8:58) Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” "I am" is one of the names of God.

You totally reject what the early Christians believed, because you are proud and have anointed yourself to be your own personal "Pope" who calls all the shots and decides that century after Century, Christ did such a poor job of guiding his Church that Christians simply had it wrong, and Deejee has it all figured out.


Here is what the early Christians believed:
Justin Martyr (AD 150): “The Father of the universe has a Son, who also being the first begotten Word of God, is even God (First Apology, ch.63). “Whence to God alone we render worship” (First Apology, ch.17). “But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore” (First Apology, ch.6) “Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Christ] is witnessed to by Him who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ” (Dialogue with Trypho, ch.63).

Tatian (AD 170): “We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man” (Address to the Greek, 21).

Melito of Sardis (AD 170): “Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages” (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide, 13).

Irenaeus (AD 180): “He indeed who made all things can alone, together with His Word, properly be termed God and Lord: but the things which have been made cannot have this term applied to them, neither should they justly assume that appellation which belongs to the Creator” (Against Heresies, Book III, ch. 8, section 3). “But the Son, eternally co-existing with the Father, from of old, yea, from the beginning, always reveals the Father to Angels” (Against Heresies, Book II, ch. 30, section 9). “Christ Jesus is our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King” (Against Heresies, Book I, ch. 10, section 1).

Clement of Alexandria (AD 180): “There was then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreated” (Fragments, Part I, section III). “He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son” (Exhortations, ch.10). “I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father” (Stromata, Book V, ch.14).

Tertullian (AD 200): “All the Scriptures give clear proof of the Trinity, and it is from these that our principle is deduced…the distinction of the Trinity is quite clearly displayed” (Against Praxeas, ch.11). “Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another” (Against Praxeas, ch.25). “That there are two Gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth” (Against Praxeas, 13:6).
Defending the Trinity | Evidence Unseen

Not to mention, the early Christians believed Jesus about the Eucharist when he said "This is my body, this is my blood...Amen Amen I say unto you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of man, you have no life in you."

That was the first time he lost followers. He didn't call them back and tell them he meant differently. Jehovah's witnesses are like the Disciples who deserted Christ over the teaching about the Eucharist. You can't understand something, so you despise the Church Christ founded and pick and choose a few verses of Scripture that you like and ignore the rest. God established a Church to deal with such Heresy.


Not to mention, the Bible is loaded with verses that lead people to opposite opinions. Jesus never left the early Christians with a Bible, he left them with a Church. For you to claim that the Bible is not a Catholic book, is to simply deny what is obvious and historical fact!
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Nazi Germany was a predominately Protestant country. There were plenty of Protestants who went along with Hitler.

I pointed to the Catholic Church because of its public record of supporting Hitler....Protestants did not expose the slaughter nor did they oppose Hitler either. The only ones who did were in the concentration camps suffering the same treatment as was meted out to the Jews. JW's were among them. A visit to the Holocaust Museum in NY will confirm this.

The Church had corruption in it even when Jesus was with it. Jesus did choose Judas to be one of his twelve.

Christ had no corruption though, did he? All the corruption that infiltrated the church after his death was instigated by men, just as it was foretold.

Jesus chose the 12 after spending all night in prayer to his Father. If Jesus was God, why would he need to do that? Why would Jesus have to defer his will to the will of the Father if they were one and the same God?
Can you show me one scripture where Jesus clearly stated that he was God?

Pointing out corrupt things Catholics have done is not a reflection of the official teachings of the Church Magisterium. Protestants have just as much corruption, it's just Protestants are divided into thousands of denominations that are small in comparison, so you simply hear less about Protestant scandals, and there is less money to be made from lawsuits.

I fully agree...Christendom is an empire of false Christianity, starting with the birth of Roman Catholicism in the 4th century and spreading after the Reformation to "daughters" of an already corrupt church. Jesus warned about these "weeds" that would virtually choke out the "wheat". (Matthew 13:24-30) When the apostles asked for an explanation of the parable, Jesus said..."The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen." (Matthew 13:37-43)

The word “apostasy” comes from a Greek term that means “a standing away from,” “a falling away, defection,” “rebellion, abandonment.” The first one to fall away from the true worship of Jehovah was Satan the Devil. He was therefore the first apostate. (John 8:44) He caused the first human couple to become apostates. (Genesis, chapter 3) Very early in the history of Israel there was a “falling away” or ‘turning aside’ from true worship. The apostles too warned of an apostasy in Christianity. (1 Timothy 4:1; Acts 20:29-30; Matthew 7:15-16; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; 2 Peter 2:1-3) What makes you think it didn't happen?

There was a pattern from the beginning if you look closely. The pattern continued with God providing his prophets and making known his will and counsel. Humans continued to disobey him and lean towards their own ideas. There is a record of all of this in the Bible so we could understand what we see happening again. Why does history repeat PoD?

Jesus did to the church what God did to Israel.....he gave them enough rope to hang (condemn) themselves.

Also, early Christians century after century refuted your claims denying the Divinity of Christ.

Yes....and the years following the death of the apostles saw the church degenerate into more and more apostasy. Like Judaism "the traditions of men" again dominated over the word of God. History repeating again!
By the time of Constantine, the state of Christianity was ripe for the takeover of a self confessed "Christian" Emperor, although he was not baptized until he was on his deathbed. It is reported that he worshipped Zeus right up until his death.
His mandated religion was a curious blend of weakened Christianity and pagan Roman beliefs....all still held to this day.

Constantine was a man who 'ran with the hares and hunted with the hounds'...an astute politician, he wanted to consolidate his divided empire, so he fused the two disagreeing factions together by declaring Roman Catholicism the "State Religion". All of the things that the pagans loved were retained under a thin disguise and a supposedly Christian label. Almost everyone was happy.....but not all. Dissenters who dared to question the doctrines of the church, were silenced...permanently and publicly. God's word was locked away, and because the people were kept in ignorance, they were led to believe that God was with the church.....but as Jesus said in Matthew 7:16..."Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them."
The "fruits" of the church were rotten to the core. How else could their ungodly conduct be justified?

(Jn. 8:58) Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” "I am" is one of the names of God.

In Hebrew, God's name is not "I AM"...it never was. The divine name is a verb, the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Hebrew verb הוה (ha·wahʹ, “to be or to become”). Therefore, the divine name means "I Will Be [Become] What I Will Be [Become]".
This is not a statement of his "being" but a statement of his intentions to "Be" what is needed in any given situation.

According the the Jewish Tanach, Exodus 3:14-15...."God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh [ יְהֹוָ֣ה] (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"

God has only one name in all of scripture.
"Let them know that You-Your name alone is the Lord, Most High over all the earth." (Psalm 83:18) Not pronounced in English (substituted with a title) but clearly written in the Hebrew.
יטוְיֵֽדְע֗וּ כִּי־אַתָּ֬ה שִׁמְךָ֣ יְהֹוָ֣ה לְבַדֶּ֑ךָ עֶ֜לְי֗וֹן עַל־כָּל־הָאָֽרֶץ: (YHWH...Yahweh...Jehovah)

Jesus has several names depending upon the role he is fulfilling. Jesus is not God, but a "servant" of his Father....his most trusted and beloved son. (Acts 3:13; Acts 4:30)

You totally reject what the early Christians believed, because you are proud and have anointed yourself to be your own personal "Pope" who calls all the shots and decides that century after Century, Christ did such a poor job of guiding his Church that Christians simply had it wrong, and Deejee has it all figured out.

I totally accept what the first Christians believed because it is all recorded in the NT. All of your references from the "Church Fathers" are after the death of the apostles and clearly the beginning of the great apostasy as this belief that Jesus is God is not scriptural. There is no trinity in the Bible.

There was no "Pope" in the first century. His office in Rome, "Pontifex Maximus" was a title given to the High Priest of the pagan Roman religion. The Pope is called "the Pontiff" to this day.
After the death of Lepidus in 12 B.C.E., Augustus assumed the title “Pontifex Maximus.” Was Caesar Augustus a "Pope"?

In 313 C.E., Constantine ruled over the Western Roman Empire, while Licinius and Maximinus ruled over the East. Constantine and Licinius granted freedom of worship to all, including Christians. Constantine protected Christianity, believing that the religion could unify his empire.

Constantine was thus appalled to find that the churches were divided by disputes. Eager for consensus, he sought to establish, and then enforce, “correct” doctrine. To win his favor, bishops had to make religious compromises, and those who did received tax exemptions and generous patronage. “Getting the ‘right’ version of Christian doctrine,” said historian Charles Freeman, “gave access not only to heaven but to vast resources on earth.” The clergy thus became powerful figures in worldly affairs. “The Church had acquired a protector,” says historian A.H.M. Jones, “but it had also acquired a master.”

I believe that you have been deceived along with a whole lot of other people. :(
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
The early Christians relied on the Church. The Apostles didn't go around handing out Bibles and Scriptures to everyone.
No, but ironically the bible notes Jesus thought his apostles were morons who didn't understand his teachings and so it's weird we're supposed to take their word for things.

The Catholic Church however dates back to Christ, and the claim that someone other than Christ founded the Catholic Church has been repeatedly refuted.
Jesus was Jewish, so the Christian denomination can't be a thing until first Christianity is invented.

The Catholic Church has also done more to feed and clothe and give shelter to the needy and educate people and care for the sick than any other institution.
Yeah, the opulence of the Vatican just SCREAMS "I gave to the needy".

The Catholic Church builds hospitals
And ignores evidence-based practice so they can feel morally superior when people die. They should have their medical licenses taken away for not doing their jobs.

Take this study for example: Catholic schools improved achievement by 0.9 %. Whoopdedoo. Private non-voucher schools performed even better and achieved actual statistical significance.

homeless shelters, missions, and soup kitchens
And those are nice things, but they are bandaids, not solutions.

we are to love our neighbors
LOL.

care for the sick
Sorry. RN here. Not buying it. Too many stories of patients being left to die for multiple reasons, all of which boil down to "the Church said no". Keep in mind I thought Mother Theresa was a great person until I read about all the horrible things she did to the sick.

Yes, I agree that I don't agree with everything the Catholic Church teaches and some of it sounds stupid to me, but I find much wisdom, understanding, maturity, charity, and strength in the writings of the Saints, the Eucharist, the Sacrament of confession, and the Rosary.
Universal Wisdom will be found in lots of places, from churches to restaurants to cartoons.

Nothing the Church teaches permits or encourages such behavior
Given the ages of kids brought into relationships in the bible, they're not very far off biblically.

The Church is made up of sinners, so they are going to sin.
So there's no evidence Catholicism changes anything really, just like any other denomination. Jesus couldn't even get his own direct group to stop sinning and sinned himself. I'm all for The Way but clearly he didn't have time to work out some of the details. It's why I admire the Dharmics more.

claiming the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon
Anti-Catholicism is silly and hypocritical. I've started to consider the entire realm of Christianity a sad example of when ideals just fizzle out.

Jehovah's witnesses follow a man-made Theology that didn't exist before 1879.
And Christianity didn't exist eternally either. Or Judaism, for that matter.

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
Awfully shallow goal. Sounds more like a participation trophy than 1st place.

Not to mention it totally makes a joke of his promise "Upon this rock I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it"
Peter ended up being standstone, though. Maybe even play-doh. Hardly worth the admiration. He was an arrogant coward.

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
A God who can lose an entire planet to some random jerk isn't worth worshiping.

It still is.
But we're the only ones with any sense. :p

As Christ said "no-one comes to the Father except by me."
Except for all the people who came to the Father before Jesus was ever even born.

Jesus did choose Judas to be one of his twelve.
And note that Judas is essentially first mentioned right before the "betrayal" that no one was privy too, which screams SET-UP.

Protestants have just as much corruption
I think you're missing the point. Saying "they do it too" actually negates the idea "you" are correct. It means everyone is wrong or the stats would show significant moral changes.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It seems as if I meesed up this post so I will try again....

PopeADope said:
Nazi Germany was a predominately Protestant country. There were plenty of Protestants who went along with Hitler.

I pointed to the Catholic Church because of its public record of supporting Hitler....Protestants did not expose the slaughter nor did they oppose Hitler either. The only ones who did were in the concentration camps suffering the same treatment as was meted out to the Jews. JW's were among them. A visit to the Holocaust Museum in NY will confirm this.

The Church had corruption in it even when Jesus was with it. Jesus did choose Judas to be one of his twelve.
Christ had no corruption though, did he? All the corruption that infiltrated the church after his death was instigated by men, just as it was foretold.

Jesus chose the 12 after spending all night in prayer to his Father. If Jesus was God, why would he need to do that? Why would Jesus have to defer his will to the will of the Father if they were one and the same God?
Can you show me one scripture where Jesus clearly stated that he was God?

Pointing out corrupt things Catholics have done is not a reflection of the official teachings of the Church Magisterium. Protestants have just as much corruption, it's just Protestants are divided into thousands of denominations that are small in comparison, so you simply hear less about Protestant scandals, and there is less money to be made from lawsuits.

I fully agree...Christendom is an empire of false Christianity, starting with the birth of Roman Catholicism in the 4th century and spreading after the Reformation to "daughters" of an already corrupt church. Jesus warned about these "weeds" that would virtually choke out the "wheat". (Matthew 13:24-30) When the apostles asked for an explanation of the parable, Jesus said..."The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen." (Matthew 13:37-43)

The word “apostasy” comes from a Greek term that means “a standing away from,” “a falling away, defection,” “rebellion, abandonment.” The first one to fall away from the true worship of Jehovah was Satan the Devil. He was therefore the first apostate. (John 8:44) He caused the first human couple to become apostates. (Genesis, chapter 3) Very early in the history of Israel there was a “falling away” or ‘turning aside’ from true worship. The apostles too warned of an apostasy in Christianity. (1 Timothy 4:1; Acts 20:29-30; Matthew 7:15-16; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; 2 Peter 2:1-3) What makes you think it didn't happen?

There was a pattern from the beginning if you look closely. The pattern continued with God providing his prophets and making known his will and counsel. Humans continued to disobey him and lean towards their own ideas. There is a record of all of this in the Bible so we could understand what we see happening again. Why does history repeat PoD?

Jesus did to the church what God did to Israel.....he gave them enough rope to hang (condemn) themselves.

PopeADope said:
Also, early Christians century after century refuted your claims denying the Divinity of Christ.

Yes....and the years following the death of the apostles saw the church degenerate into more and more apostasy. Like Judaism "the traditions of men" again dominated over the word of God. History repeating again!
By the time of Constantine, the state of Christianity was ripe for the takeover of a self confessed "Christian" Emperor, although he was not baptized until he was on his deathbed. It is reported that he worshipped Zeus right up until his death.
His mandated religion was a curious blend of weakened Christianity and pagan Roman beliefs....all still held to this day.

Constantine was a man who 'ran with the hares and hunted with the hounds'...an astute politician, he wanted to consolidate his divided empire, so he fused the two disagreeing factions together by declaring Roman Catholicism the "State Religion". All of the things that the pagans loved were retained under a thin disguise and a supposedly Christian label. Almost everyone was happy.....but not all. Dissenters who dared to question the doctrines of the church, were silenced...permanently and publicly. God's word was locked away, and because the people were kept in ignorance, they were led to believe that God was with the church.....but as Jesus said in Matthew 7:16..."Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them."
The "fruits" of the church were rotten to the core. How else could their ungodly conduct be justified?

PopeADope said:
(Jn. 8:58) Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” "I am" is one of the names of God.

In Hebrew, God's name is not "I AM"...it never was. The divine name is a verb, the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Hebrew verb הוה (ha·wahʹ, “to be or to become”). Therefore, the divine name means "I Will Be [Become] What I Will Be [Become]".
This is not a statement of his "being" but a statement of his intentions to "Be" what is needed in any given situation.

According the the Jewish Tanach, Exodus 3:14-15...."God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh [ יְהֹוָ֣ה] (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"

God has only one name in all of scripture.
"Let them know that You-Your name alone is the Lord, Most High over all the earth." (Psalm 83:18) Not pronounced in English (substituted with a title) but clearly written in the Hebrew.
יטוְיֵֽדְע֗וּ כִּי־אַתָּ֬ה שִׁמְךָ֣ יְהֹוָ֣ה לְבַדֶּ֑ךָ עֶ֜לְי֗וֹן עַל־כָּל־הָאָֽרֶץ:
(YHWH...Yahweh...Jehovah)

Jesus has several names depending upon the role he is fulfilling. Jesus is not God, but a "servant" of his Father....his most trusted and beloved son. (Acts 3:13; Acts 4:30)

PopeADope said:
You totally reject what the early Christians believed, because you are proud and have anointed yourself to be your own personal "Pope" who calls all the shots and decides that century after Century, Christ did such a poor job of guiding his Church that Christians simply had it wrong, and Deejee has it all figured out.

I totally accept what the first Christians believed because it is all recorded in the NT. All of your references from the "Church Fathers" are after the death of the apostles and clearly the beginning of the great apostasy as this belief that Jesus is God is not scriptural. There is no trinity in the Bible.

There was no "Pope" in the first century. His office in Rome, "Pontifex Maximus" was a title given to the High Priest of the pagan Roman religion. The Pope is called "the Pontiff" to this day.
After the death of Lepidus in 12 B.C.E., Augustus assumed the title “Pontifex Maximus.” Was Caesar Augustus a "Pope"?

In 313 C.E., Constantine ruled over the Western Roman Empire, while Licinius and Maximinus ruled over the East. Constantine and Licinius granted freedom of worship to all, including Christians. Constantine protected Christianity, believing that the religion could unify his empire.

Constantine was thus appalled to find that the churches were divided by disputes. Eager for consensus, he sought to establish, and then enforce, “correct” doctrine. To win his favor, bishops had to make religious compromises, and those who did received tax exemptions and generous patronage. “Getting the ‘right’ version of Christian doctrine,” said historian Charles Freeman, “gave access not only to heaven but to vast resources on earth.” The clergy thus became powerful figures in worldly affairs. “The Church had acquired a protector,” says historian A.H.M. Jones, “but it had also acquired a master.”

I believe that you have been deceived along with a whole lot of other people. :(
 
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