Life after death

Akivah said:

Christians like to say that their god loves them, but we don't say that in Judaism. Our G-d doesn't have human emotions, like love. We receive G-d's bounty, but we don't use human emotions to describe the reasons for G-d's actions. We focus on our feelings about G-d, because we can relate to and understand our own human feelings and emotions.

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Nice. That makes a -helova- whole lot more sense than putting human attributes to life/spirit of (I dont see as a creator or being) in and of itself.

Akivah said:

Nope, I'm Jewish.

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Kinda figured. I learned something new. Didnt know Judaism doesnt describe god in human attributes. I keep hearing judaism, christianity, and muslim share the same god. In judaism, given this post, is that true? (Lets say jesus is not god but a reflection/image of his creator)

Deeje said:

I am curious Akivah.....what is the "soul" to a modern day Jew? Where do you get your belief about it from Jewish scripture?

In every mention of the soul in the Tanach, it refers to a living, breathing creature. Nowhere is the soul mentioned as a separate, disembodied entity.

In Ezekiel 18:4 it says..."Behold, all souls are Mine. Like the soul of the father, like the soul of the son they are Mine; the soul that sins, it shall die."
Yechezkel - Ezekiel - Chapter 18

That being the case, it is the soul that dies, not just the body.

In Ecclesiastes 9:5;10 Solomon wrote..."For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten......Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, where you are going."
Kohelet - Ecclesiastes - Chapter 9

We are all going into the common grave of mankind (sheol; hades) but there is no consciousness or activity in death because the "dead know nothing".

How do you correlate your views with the Hebrew scriptures? The original Jews who read the Tanach had no belief in an "eternal" or "immortal" soul. Whilst there is breath in us we are a soul. When breathing stops we cease to know anything. We have no superiority over the animals in this regard as Solomon also noted....
"For there is a happening for the children of men, and there is a happening for the beasts-and they have one happening-like the death of this one is the death of that one, and all have one spirit, and the superiority of man over beast is nought, for all is vanity.

20 All go to one place; all came from the dust, and all return to the dust." (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)
Kohelet - Ecclesiastes - Chapter 3

There is no concept of life after death (that is, a continuation of life after the death of the body) in the Hebrew scriptures that I know of. Jews were taught about resurrection....i.e. a full restoration to life on earth under the rulership of Messiah's kingdom. Do you still believe that?

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Hmm? Are you questioning an observant jew of the accuracy of his or her own faith as contrast with how you interpret his scriptures? Curious.

Unveiled Artist said:

Is this how you define the afterlife for yourself? A compilation of many interpretations of an afterlife you feel have one thing in common?

To me, not all religions afterlife views share anything with each other. Its human attempt to find simularity where there is none but beauty in one hundred percent diversity.

I believe in rebirth. Since we (not soul) go through many lifetimes, our objective is to, actually, die. Have no more rebirths. We do this by not attaching to this life at all. Freedom. I dont know the logistics in it. Since we have no soul, I do see ourselves going lights out. I hear a lot of stories of children telling their passed lives. We hope for no rebirth unlike reincarnation where one is reborn closer in god.

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Yeah, it does look that way. But there's this image in religion (I think it's from Hinduism) of a group of blind men feeling around. It's a spear, one says. It's a tree trunk, another says. It's a fan, still another says. No, no, you're all wrong, says the last, it's a hose. What they're feeling is all the same thing, they're just grasping different parts. It's an elephant.

Imagine if weren't blind, if you were able to see religion as a whole. What would it look like? The most defining characteristics of religion is not the nitpick of individual beliefs, though you can also put those together into a coherent whole, it's that followers tend to follow something that fits their personality, short of a join or die mindset.

It's like flavors of ice cream, we have vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, mint chip, cookie dough, butter pecan, and so on. Now, each of these have a flavor. But if you have an ice cream maker, you can also make plain ice cream. This is what my religion aims for. Yeah, of course I have my own personal beliefs too, but I'd describe my religion as one that attempts to be a religion-flavored religion.

Let's look at how mindset shapes religious preference. We look at you. We can tell that you have a very skeptical, no frills mindset. Buddhism would probably appeal to you, hence the acceptance of its rebirth theory. But I doubt you're the type that has much patience for ceremony or chanting or bell lighting, so you're largely an atheist with a few beliefs in common with Buddhism. It's like that. One has a religious choice, it basically serves as a mirror for themselves.

I have a bland personality. I spend much of my time watching and learning from others. I accept some things (which is why I'm sycretic, with a few ideas from Buddhism, Shinto, Christianity, and Taoism) but the rest I just watch and observe. The sort of religion I have is more a spirituality, but it fits me. I spend much of my time watching how followers think, and unifying theories together.

Samantha Rinne said:

Yeah, it does look that way. But there's this image in religion (I think it's from Hinduism) of a group of blind men feeling around. It's a spear, one says. It's a tree trunk, another says. It's a fan, still another says. No, no, you're all wrong, says the last, it's a hose. What they're feeling is all the same thing, they're just grasping different parts. It's an elephant.

Imagine if weren't blind, if you were able to see religion as a whole. What would it look like? The most defining characteristics of religion is not the nitpick of individual beliefs, though you can also put those together into a coherent whole, it's that followers tend to follow something that fits their personality, short of a join or die mindset.

It's like flavors of ice cream, we have vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, mint chip, cookie dough, butter pecan, and so on. Now, each of these have a flavor. But if you have an ice cream maker, you can also make plain ice cream. This is what my religion aims for. Yeah, of course I have my own personal beliefs too, but I'd describe my religion as one that attempts to be a religion-flavored religion.

Let's look at how mindset shapes religious preference. We look at you. We can tell that you have a very skeptical, no frills mindset. Buddhism would probably appeal to you, hence the acceptance of its rebirth theory. But I doubt you're the type that has much patience for ceremony or chanting or bell lighting, so you're largely an atheist with a few beliefs in common with Buddhism. It's like that. One has a religious choice, it basically serves as a mirror for themselves.

I have a bland personality. I spend much of my time watching and learning from others. I accept some things (which is why I'm sycretic, with a few ideas from Buddhism, Shinto, Christianity, and Taoism) but the rest I just watch and observe. The sort of religion I have is more a spirituality, but it fits me. I spend much of my time watching how followers think, and unifying theories together.

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I honestly dont see religion like that. I am actually part sighted off and on. When my vision goes, my vision field is distorted. What you see as a full car, my vision would be two cars. Someone with no vision would see none. And so forth. The religion and the most important thing is how people interpret that car based on the vision they have. Their worldview, their language, idea of the world, history, and supportive network or community defines that car to look one way and to another person something else.

When I see a distorted car, thats my reality. Thats my "religion." My distortion isnt a detail or something to brush over as a color to one object. Its literally how I see the world and on this analogy how I see the world is not seperate from my vision issues.

So even though we see the same car in analogy, as a fact the religious perspective isnt defined by the car. Unless we are god, ha, we dont know its one car. Edjumacated guess. We just know what our eyes can tell us.

The elephant is the same way. Only god, cough, would ideally know we are touching one elephant. It is a fact, we dont know. We just know what we see as true and that perception and interpretation is whats important not trying to define what our views have in common.

Thr blind telling another blind we are all blind but seeing the same thing even though we experience different things and none of sees anything to confirm otherwise.

Tougue tied..

Unveiled Artist said:

Hmm? Are you questioning an observant jew of the accuracy of his or her own faith as contrast with how you interpret his scriptures? Curious.

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No, I am just curious as to how modern Jews interpret their own scripture. I wanted to know, how the "soul" is understood.

Unveiled Artist said:

If you believe in life after death, whatever that means to you, and those who do not, how do you feel (of all ages) at the moment that you will No Longer exists; no soul and no spirit, no reincarnation, no rebirth, no...?

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That would be great, because i don't wish to exist.

If you were to die right now at this exact moment, how would you feel about death when you have no soul, no spirit, no reincarnation, no rebirth, no heaven, no...?

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Same.

What do you think of death-no soul, no spirit, no rebirth, no reincarnation, no...?

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Same.

Deeje said:

I am curious Akivah.....what is the "soul" to a modern day Jew? Where do you get your belief about it from Jewish scripture?

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The Jewish bible is concerned with our lives on Earth. It barely mentions the afterlife. All of your quotes refer to how the living view the dead. The state of the soul after the body dies is only explained in the Talmud. And you are completely wrong about the beliefs of the original Jews. If you are interested in reading the view of the soul in accordance to Judaism, here are two articles on the topic.

What is a soul? - philosophy soul

The Soul

Unveiled Artist said:

Nice. That makes a -helova- whole lot more sense than putting human attributes to life/spirit of (I dont see as a creator or being) in and of itself.

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Thanks.

Unveiled Artist said:

Didnt know Judaism doesnt describe god in human attributes.

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It's a little tricky. Our bible uses human emotions (e.g. G-d's Wrath) or human body parts (e.g. The Arm of G-d) to describe G-d's actions, but Judaism understands it as references for human understanding, not as actual descriptions of G-d.

Unveiled Artist said:

I keep hearing judaism, christianity, and muslim share the same god. In judaism, given this post, is that true? (Lets say jesus is not god but a reflection/image of his creator)

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Christianity claims that, but Judaism disagrees. We believe that Judaism and Islam have the same G-d, but Christianity has a different god.

Unveiled Artist said:

If you believe in life after death, whatever that means to you, and those who do not, how do you feel (of all ages) at the moment that you will No Longer exists; no soul and no spirit, no reincarnation, no rebirth, no...?

I do know many will say "I'm not afraid", some will use their age as reasons for not fearing death, others have a real deep seeded believe in the afterlife, others just do not care.

To me, that is taking life for granted. That is saying I know how I will feel at death: terminal illness, slow death, very painful, so have you. We dont get to acceptence until later when we are pass "the surprise", the I didnt know it would be today, there will always be some view of death whether comforted by religion or age.

If you were to die right now at this exact moment, how would you feel about death when you have no soul, no spirit, no reincarnation, no rebirth, no heaven, no...?

Is it something you have Actually thought about for more than five mins without your age and/or faith (or ego?) to console you?

Do you want to think about it?

The more I think about it, the more I believe less of any after life, reincarnation, and rebirth. Right before my aunt passed this year january, she told my mother, her sister: you know religion is all... right?

Ive been saying that for years, mother says.

If there is near death experiences or believe in god right before death, I dont believe it. A week after that convo, she died.

What do you think of death-no soul, no spirit, no rebirth, no reincarnation, no...?

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I have two ways of thinking about what happens when you die. First, since no one really knows what happens after you die this question must be answered with an article of faith. I do not believe nothing happens when we die. I believe what happens when we die is a very profound experience with God. I like to use near death experiences as supporting evidence to my way of thinking. But even with a few shreds of evidence it is mostly a chosen article of faith that cannot be proven to be true but is just chosen to be true.

So here is what I think happens when you die. People who have near-death experiences talk about a white light. I think what happens when we die, as our brain shuts down and the electrical signals fade, we have a God experience. When we face the light we look into the face of God. We are so enamored and awed by God's infinite beauty all time stops. We are no longer capable of having conscious thoughts, we are at peace, and we experience eternal heavenly bliss at this moment. Although it may only last a few seconds, like car-crash time when everything slows down, our experience looking into the face of God effectively lasts for all eternity. Experiencing God's infinite beauty is the greatest possible experience anyone can have. It is the absolute height of what a human being can and is capable of experiencing as bliss. Sex uses a subset of your total nerve energy. The God experience uses ALL your nerve energy in one experience.

Some people, for whatever reason, turn away from looking to the face of God. Each of us is our own greatest critic. Many people think they are not worthy to look into the face of God. So people turn away from God at this critical moment. When then happens the brain has a free-form delusion where the conscious self attains omnipotent powers. The brain becomes its own reality. Imagination and reality become the same word where imagination become our primary reality and our brain is no longer connected to the outside world. At this point, using the new found omnipotent powers, the conscious self works out every guilt, every regret, every short-coming until the person rids themselves of all their self-loathing. At this point, the person then turns back and looks into the face of God. Except this time the person doesn't look away and the person then experiences eternal heavenly bliss like everyone else. Everyone gets peace. This way our omnipotent God neatly collects every soul back to the source from whence they all came.

As part of the self working out every short-coming I was thinking something like the following would happen as part of the free-form delusion. You would relive every day of your life. But as you do so every time you sin against someone you get to experience the sin from the other person's point of view and experience. You then repeat each day of your life but while it is repeating you get to make other choices so you can learn how not to sin. You then repeat each day of your life until you figure out way to get through your whole life without sinning. Then God takes you back in since you've been fully rehabilitated. God's power to rehabilitate even the worse sinner among us has no limits!

There is probably no better way for God to win the hearts of people who turn away from Him than by giving them everything their heart desires. Having omnipotent powers may sound like a great deal but it would get boring in a seemingly short time. After having sex with two chicks over 10,000 times it all gets a little old. Staring into God's infinite beauty is our greatest possible experience. No one would choose not to experience eternal heavenly bliss at some point.

So in my way of thinking, everyone gets saved. Everyone gets to experience eternal heavenly bliss because everyone experiences the white light when they die. Now you could say it's not fair that Hitler or anyone wicked should get to experience eternal heavenly bliss. The thing is everyone Hitler killed or sinned against is experiencing eternal heavenly bliss. So the people Hitler killed or sinned against do not really care what happens to Hitler.

If we want justice we have to do while people are alive. Sin has to be absolved through the person sinned against, or in my way of thinking, justice does not occur. People want to believe there is justice in the afterlife because they feel they have no justice in the real life. Plus I think people are just full of hate and want to see other people suffer for their sins. But from an omnipotent God's perspective, it doesn't really matter. It's not like God is going to die if too few people make it into heaven.

Is there life after experiencing eternal heavenly bliss is a good question? I don't think so. I think once you get into the Bliss your consciousness melts into the mind of God and you return back to the source. It's a good way to go. Again, I can't prove any of this is true. This whole thing is an article of faith. I'm sure you think your dogma is "right" and my dogma is "wrong". If you do, then prove to me why your dogma is more right than mine. Maybe your way is better but I would have to be convinced.

Here is the second way of thinking about death: When we die we just die. But how we are thinking about death may be all wrong. Death is a lot like sex. None of us invented sex. Sex is just something that is part of what it means to be a human being. What if the same thing is true about death. None us invented death. But more importantly, none of us owns what it means to die. What I mean by this is if you take away your own Ego delusion, everything that you think that is unique to yourself, our brains, our characters, the way we think, the way we love, the way we fear, the way we laugh, is exactly the same in EVERY human being. We did not invent and we do not own what it means to be a human being.

So in this sense, as long as the human race continues to live on, the very things you hold most dear about who you are as a person, are not going to die with you. When you realize this and accept it, then you realize you do not really die because you are not really alive to begin with. Everyone lives on in everyone else. When your Ego delusion dies and you are born again into a much wider experience of what it means to be a human being. We ALL live on in other people.

How great would our lives be if people gave up their fears about death? People would not hoard as much. Since we are all the same person, then maybe you won't be so selfish next time when it comes to sharing with your fellow human being. Because when you share, you are really giving something back to yourself. And helping other people live enthusiastic lives makes this place a lot more fun to live in.

Unveiled Artist said:

If you believe in life after death, whatever that means to you, and those who do not, how do you feel (of all ages) at the moment that you will No Longer exists; no soul and no spirit, no reincarnation, no rebirth, no...?

I do know many will say "I'm not afraid", some will use their age as reasons for not fearing death, others have a real deep seeded believe in the afterlife, others just do not care.

To me, that is taking life for granted. That is saying I know how I will feel at death: terminal illness, slow death, very painful, so have you. We dont get to acceptence until later when we are pass "the surprise", the I didnt know it would be today, there will always be some view of death whether comforted by religion or age.

If you were to die right now at this exact moment, how would you feel about death when you have no soul, no spirit, no reincarnation, no rebirth, no heaven, no...?

Is it something you have Actually thought about for more than five mins without your age and/or faith (or ego?) to console you?

Do you want to think about it?

The more I think about it, the more I believe less of any after life, reincarnation, and rebirth. Right before my aunt passed this year january, she told my mother, her sister: you know religion is all... right?

Ive been saying that for years, mother says.

If there is near death experiences or believe in god right before death, I dont believe it. A week after that convo, she died.

What do you think of death-no soul, no spirit, no rebirth, no reincarnation, no...?

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From very young age I have been intrigued with death. Age 8 hearing someone drowned I went on my bike to check it out. Also when great grandma died, I checked if she was really dead in her coffin. My grandma saw me doing that, 30years later she told me "you also check with me before they put me under". So I did. I think it is a natural interest humans have to know about dying process.

I am blessed with bad health, so got many times confronted with near death. Even going conscious in coma, by not eating/drinking. Being a scientist I love to check out things myself. Was a good experience. The final "trip" is beautiful, I know now by my own experience. So my fear to die is gone. Of course for a nice trip you better start the journey when still in reasonable health. Don't wait till you are dying from pain. Of course we can't control everything. So I just hope I don't get painful accident and die. If I die, I would like to die conscious, not accidental or when sleeping. [a few days back they shared an article here on RF about Vivekananda in which was described how He, age 39, decided to go on His final trip. I was really intrigued by this article. This article got me thinking "when would be good for me to go?". Not yet decided, though.]

Why people have fear of dying/death:
1): Attachment to the body, emotions, mind etc
2): Attachment to the beloved ones and sex, eating, and all kind of worldly stuff
3): Fear of the unknown [maybe attachment to the known]
4): Fear of hell for those believing in hell. [attachment to what priests and others told you]
....

What do you think of death-no soul, no spirit, no rebirth, no reincarnation, no...?
This one has to do with ignorance and "Body identification" IMHO
When I stopped eating/drinking I went through this tunnel of light. Not my body, just me as a kind of witness. So I am not my body. When I came to the end, I was told "if you don't eat you go into coma" and was send back. So I can only share that the final trip is nice. About the destination I can't tell you anything. But I had not 1 worrying thought on this trip. So I have no need to know the answers to the above questions, because there was "no mind" when leaving the body. These questions only come from ignorance and fear, due to attachments.

,

Akivah said:

The Jewish bible is concerned with our lives on Earth. It barely mentions the afterlife. All of your quotes refer to how the living view the dead. The state of the soul after the body dies is only explained in the Talmud. And you are completely wrong about the beliefs of the original Jews. If you are interested in reading the view of the soul in accordance to Judaism, here are two articles on the topic.

What is a soul? - philosophy soul

The Soul

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Thank you for the links. The first one was interesting, but the second one was a real eye opener. I had no idea that Mormons actually borrowed some of the Talmud's ideas, i.e. that all souls are in heaven in some kind of holding chamber waiting to be given to humans born on earth. I did not know that some Jews even believed this.

It is my opinion from reading the Torah that 'an afterlife is barely mentioned' because it doesn't teach that we "have" a soul, but rather that we "are" a soul, as long as breath is in our lungs and blood is pumping through our veins. There is no disembodiment that I can find. Perhaps you can help me out? Surely the Torah would teach this if it were scriptural truth?

King David says in Psalm 146:3-4..."Don’t put your trust in princes or in mortals, who cannot help. When they breathe their last, they return to dust; on that very day all their plans are gone." (CJB)
or
"Do not trust in princes, in the son of men, who has no salvation. His spirit leaves, he returns to his soil; on that day, his thoughts are lost." (Complete Tanach)

I see that it is the "spirit" that departs in this verse, not the "soul". Is there a difference according to Jewish belief?
In the CJB "spirit" is translated 'breath' which is what Genesis says when God created Adam...he gave him "breath" (spirit) not a soul.

It was also interesting that this teaching of a spiritual existence after death is not held by all, in fact the majority do not believe that, as the following quote from your link highlights....

"Some authorities maintain that what the sages called Olam Haba (the "Future World" or "World to Come") refers to the spiritual dimension that the soul enters after leaving the body. The majority, however, consider Olam Haba as a completely new stage of earth life which will be ushered in only after the Messianic Age and the Resurrection of the Dead."

From my own studies, I have come to appreciate that the Hebrew Scriptures do not teach that we have an immortal soul or that we are conscious in any way after death. The ancient Jews believed in full bodily resurrection once God had established his kingdom on earth in the hands of his Messiah.

It goes on to say.....
"According to these authorities, all souls pass into an intermediate dimension called Olam HaNeshamot ("World of Souls") after death. It is there that they are judged and then abide until the resurrection and final judgment."

I cannot find Olam HaNeshamot in the Torah either. When the dead were buried they were usually buried in the ground or in a cave. I imagine any who died during the wilderness wanderings were buried in the earth....underground. The belief that the dead live on after the body has expired is really a perpetuation of the first lie told to the woman in Eden...."You will surely not die".....and it appears as if mankind has been searching for ways not to die ever since.

The Torah speaks of "sheol" as the place where the dead reside....but 'those who sleep in the dust' are are awakened. Sheol it is not a place of consciousness or activity. (Ecclesiastes 9:10)

"Blessed are you to the Lord, the Maker of heaven and earth.

16 The heavens are heavens of the Lord, but the earth He gave to the children of men.

17 Neither will the dead praise God, nor all those who descend to the grave.

18 But we shall bless God from now until everlasting, Hallelujah! (Psalms 115:15-18)

Daniel describes the time of Messiah's rulership by saying...."And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awaken-these for eternal life, and those for disgrace, for eternal abhorrence." (Daniel 12:2)

It appears from this scripture that judgment is reserved for that time, not when a person dies.

The teachings of the Talmud appear to be very different to what is in the Torah, in that there is no mention of immortal souls in the Torah at all. Adam was not "given" a soul but as it says..."In describing the creation of Adam, the Torah says, "God formed man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils a soul-breath of life (Nishmat Chaim). Man [thus] became a living creature (Nefesh Chaya)" (Genesis 2:7).

Adam was not told that he would go anywhere at death, but that he would simply return to the dust from which he was created.
So which do you accept? Do Jews have a choice about what to believe? Which one is true?

I see from the Torah that souls die, not just bodies. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Isaiah foretold that in the new world, faithful and obedient mankind would enjoy the Messiah's reign of peace, and that all harmful practices would cease. (Isaiah 65:17-23)

Daniel too foretold that Messiah's kingdom would crush all earthly kingdoms out of existence and replace them. (Daniel 2:44) Again, that is earthly.

It is so interesting for me to explore the beliefs of others particularly of those who purport to worship the God of Abraham.....such diversity of belief has to have originated from somewhere...but which one has the approval of the true God? Time will tell I guess.

Unveiled Artist said:

If you believe in life after death, whatever that means to you, and those who do not, how do you feel (of all ages) at the moment that you will No Longer exists; no soul and no spirit, no reincarnation, no rebirth, no...?

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not sure what you are asking, precisely. My religious faith tells me that there IS an afterlife. That's nice, and I believe it. My husband is waiting for me, I believe.

However, if I am wrong, and all there is, is nothing....then (shrug) I'm OK with that.

Being dead isn't scary.
Dying sucks.

dianaiad said:

not sure what you are asking, precisely. My religious faith tells me that there IS an afterlife. That's nice, and I believe it. My husband is waiting for me, I believe.

However, if I am wrong, and all there is, is nothing....then (shrug) I'm OK with that.

Being dead isn't scary.
Dying sucks.

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I like that: being dead isnt scary. Dying sucks.

Woody Allen said something simular: Its not that Im afraid of death, I just dont want to be there when it happens.

Was asking how you view death in the light here is no afterlife nor rebirth.

Im not comfortable with lights out since we are so attach to this world, sometimes we take that for granted. For example, someone who is at age or chronic illness will say they arent afraid of death. Then they also have attachments to this life with their loved ones, financial affairs (making wills), and attach to ideas of after life that hasnt taken place. Its a understandable contradiction.

My faith says we are reborn until we actually die with no further rebirth. I dont know the logistics of rebirth but I do know life goes in a circle. No beginning and end to circles until one stops running. I admire buddhist monks and nuns who give up a lot to not form attachments to this life so they arent reborn.

Its interesting to ponder how people see death in light of their attachments. The process of grief comes in many forms. Thats my faith.

But you answered the question. Thank you.

Unveiled Artist said:

That is saying I know how I will feel at death: terminal illness, slow death, very painful, so have you.

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I see a big distinction between fearing dying and fearing death.

Dying is something you do while you're alive, and it can be easy, or appalling, or something in between.

But once you're dead, it's all over, whether the comfort or the suffering. The fear of great pain is not the same thing as the fear of death.

Unveiled Artist said:

If you were to die right now at this exact moment, how would you feel about death when you have no soul, no spirit, no reincarnation, no rebirth, no heaven, no...?

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I can't see any point in living disembodied ie free of sensation and emotion; and I can't see any point in living forever ─ it's not as if the planet needs more people.

The great regret I'd feel about dying right now is the loss of seeing my grandchildren grow. The rest is worry about the impact of my death on the others around me, but that will take care of itself, as it did in due course for me when my parents died.

Unveiled Artist said:

Is it something you have Actually thought about for more than five mins without your age and/or faith (or ego?) to console you?

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When I had cancer some years ago it was a big live option on the table, and I thought, okay, that can happen. It didn't, but it will.

Unveiled Artist said:

I honestly dont see religion like that. I am actually part sighted off and on. When my vision goes, my vision field is distorted. What you see as a full car, my vision would be two cars. Someone with no vision would see none. And so forth. The religion and the most important thing is how people interpret that car based on the vision they have. Their worldview, their language, idea of the world, history, and supportive network or community defines that car to look one way and to another person something else.

When I see a distorted car, thats my reality. Thats my "religion." My distortion isnt a detail or something to brush over as a color to one object. Its literally how I see the world and on this analogy how I see the world is not seperate from my vision issues.

So even though we see the same car in analogy, as a fact the religious perspective isnt defined by the car. Unless we are god, ha, we dont know its one car. Edjumacated guess. We just know what our eyes can tell us.

The elephant is the same way. Only god, cough, would ideally know we are touching one elephant. It is a fact, we dont know. We just know what we see as true and that perception and interpretation is whats important not trying to define what our views have in common.

Thr blind telling another blind we are all blind but seeing the same thing even though we experience different things and none of sees anything to confirm otherwise.

Tougue tied..

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I'm pretty sure I just facepalmed there.

We are, so far as I know anyway, both sitting in front of a computer talking to each other. Now I might be wrong, I might be sitting in front of a computer while you are handwriting notes, or speaking to me with ultra-evolved psychic abilities, or you can computers made from living plants. I could conceive this is possible.

But it's basically a safe bet that both of us are in the same reality (same elephant). But each of us is touching a different part of it. In remote regions of Afghanistan or the Middle East, the internet and many other things of technology might be completely unbelievable. Likewise, I have heard that because of some sort of cultural openness, parts of Mexico have several times the UFO sightings as the US. Or in Hindu countries, alot more people have claims of past-life memories. This is something simply not experienced in our reality.

Religions didn't spring up randomly. They came from their culture. Buddhism would not have arisen in say, France, because it had to form in an area where there was unrest, violence, and death. Where a prince could be sheltered by a father who wanted him to be a warlord. Where there was a caste system.

You should get that cough looked at. Pretty sure anyone with decent sense could eventually figure that out when they are able to look at the whole.

Akivah said:

Christians like to say that their god loves them, but we don't say that in Judaism. Our G-d doesn't have human emotions, like love. We receive G-d's bounty, but we don't use human emotions to describe the reasons for G-d's actions. We focus on our feelings about G-d, because we can relate to and understand our own human feelings and emotions.

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But wait, a couple of things here. God is written as God, I'm not too sure why Judaists write it as G_d but that's how you go I guess.
On an other note, God loves even you, here's a couple of old testament lines for you to remind you of that love,

My son, do not despise the LORD's discipline
and do not resent his rebuke,
because the LORD disciplines those he loves,
as a father the son he delights in.
(Pr 3:11-12)

Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the LORD your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
(Joel 2:12-14)

I could probably find a few more. I accept that God is not like us and his love is not like a human has for another but I might suggest his love is greater and grander and something incomprehensible to us.

Samantha Rinne said:

We are, so far as I know anyway, both sitting in front of a computer talking to each other. Now I might be wrong, I might be sitting in front of a computer while you are handwriting notes, or speaking to me with ultra-evolved psychic abilities, or you can computers made from living plants. I could conceive this is possible.

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I'm actually on my phone. My laptop was stolen from my apartment and I dont have a desktop nearby. Even though we are communicating, our perspectives (my screen vs yours), my interpretations (do I disagree with you or find agreement), and conclusions (what your gender is) are not universal. These things make up religion. Unless we know everything, we cant assume we are both on the same computer.

We cant assume we feel the same elephant when the fact is our experiences are so drastically different that to know if your guess is true, we would have to take off our blinds. Here is a good analogy by Plato, Myth of the Cave, if interested.

Full text of "Plato The Republic & Allegory of the Cave"

Dont read any of the summaries and anaylsis before reading the analogy. Took me a while to find it.

Samantha Rinne said:

But it's basically a safe bet that both of us are in the same reality (same elephant). But each of us is touching a different part of it. In remote regions of Afghanistan or the Middle East, the internet and many other things of technology might be completely unbelievable. Likewise, I have heard that because of some sort of cultural openness, parts of Mexico have several times the UFO sightings as the US. Or in Hindu countries, alot more people have claims of past-life memories. This is something simply not experienced in our reality.

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No. We are both blind thinking just because we live around each other we share one reality. Its a good ideal because human nature tries to find what we have in common. Thats an illusion, we dont. Even our fingerprints say that and not even twins have the same fingerprints.

I think its the human mind that tries to make sense of our different realities (the parts of an elephant). It would be pompous for me to believe as fact that you are only touching a part of a whole. We'd have to take off our blinds.

What "one truth" folks have is a good educated guess. I used to study among the Deaf, have my own LGBT identity, nationality, cultural, and so forth, we all are different. Hearing trying to make Deaf have one culture in a hearing environment. People are telling us rainbows should be one color or part of a whole (rather than a whole from its parts). We are supposed to think the same at our core even though our whole worldview (the parts) does nothing to describe the whole.

We try, we do. I think its a comfort thing. Who knows.

Samantha Rinne said:

Religions didn't spring up randomly. They came from their culture. Buddhism would not have arisen in say, France, because it had to form in an area where there was unrest, violence, and death. Where a pr

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If all were the same source, we'd all know gods (not god) exist since there are soo many religions who have a polytheistic view that our reality should reflect the polytheietic view. It doesnt. Probably thousands of years ago. I was never soft to trust something or someone so much it defines my life. If its not unique to myself (say my art expression), I see no internal value. Thats how I see life.

Samantha Rinne said:

You should get that cough looked at. Pretty sure anyone with decent sense could eventually figure that out when they are able to look at the whole.

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Haha. Thanks.

I understand what you guys mean by whole. The most important, its individual parts. I can assume, if I wanted, that the parts make up a whole but I have no evidence of that. Until two people have the same fingerprint, I find it less, how would I say, oppressive to define people by their parts not their whole.

At least thats my experience with minorities Im around. The majority put us in a box. That limits me. Though, like the analogy, people are comfortable with that reality.

Whatever floats ones boat?

Akivah said:

The Jewish bible is concerned with our lives on Earth. It barely mentions the afterlife. All of your quotes refer to how the living view the dead. The state of the soul after the body dies is only explained in the Talmud. And you are completely wrong about the beliefs of the original Jews. If you are interested in reading the view of the soul in accordance to Judaism, here are two articles on the topic.

What is a soul? - philosophy soul

The Soul

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Fascinating reading. I saw a number of parallels to Mormonism in these. For example, we also believe in a post-mortem "Spirit World."

Unveiled Artist said:

What do you think of death-no soul, no spirit, no rebirth, no reincarnation, no...?

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I believe my soul lives forever and that it will once again be connected to a body which is me; but this time in a utopian paradise with no pain, suffering, death, evil, and etc.

No, I don't look forward to having my soul yanked out of my body at death. It's best to hope it won't be too stressful; no sense expecting the worse and worrying all the time.

dmap said:

I believe my soul lives forever and that it will once again be connected to a body which is me; but this time in a utopian paradise with no pain, suffering, death, evil, and etc.

No, I don't look forward to having my soul yanked out of my body at death. It's best to hope it won't be too stressful; no sense expecting the worse and worrying all the time.

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I do not know where you get your beliefs but that sounds similar to what I believe about the afterlife.

I do not think there will be any yanking. The soul will just leave the body and go to the spiritual world where it will be connected to a new body comprised of heavenly elements that exist in that realm. What that world will be like I have no idea. I have no brochure and that is a cause for concern so I try not to think about it very much.