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I need some help with the Apostasy.

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Hi Katherine! I'm so glad you stopped by.:)

Okay, here are my thoughts on Ephesians Chapter 4...

That particular section begins with Spiritual Gifts and it starts with Ephesians 4:7 and ends at verse 16. (I'm reading the New King James Version)

Verses 7 & 8 read:

"But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, he led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men"."

I believe that we have each been given spiritual gifts to use according to Christ's will to further His kingdom. And naturally, some of us are called to become apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers by God.

Verse twelve reads...

"for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ."

Believers are the saints. And we are to utilize our talents and gifts, given to us by God Almighty to further His kingdom and to reach out and minister to as many as possible. We were charged with the Great Commission, which is our greatest responsibility as Christians. We are to use what God has given us to share the gospel.

Verses 13-16, in my opinion refers to the change that happens when one comes to Christ and I'm going to explain why...

Verse 13, for example...

"till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man to the meausre of the stature of the fullness of Christ."

"Unity of the faith" refers to becoming part of the one UNIFIED Body...the Body of Christ.

We will not be considered perfect in the eyes of God until we are cleansed of our sins. And we can't appear before God clean unless we have received Christ and grow in Him, seeking forgiveness for our trespasses as we go.

Verse 14...

"that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting."

I don't believe that the "we" in this verse is referring to Christians. I believe the "we" referred here are the unsaved. Those who are tossed to and fro and carried about in the wind are those who are LOST not FOUND. Those who are not in Christ are vulnerable to the deceitful plotting of the devil and of men (not that everyone isn't). I feel that this verse reiterates the importance of using our talents to bring people to Christ so that they can be saved from deceit, saved from being tossed to and fro.

Verse 15...

"but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head - Christ- "

When one accepts Christ...they do what? They live to grow in Him.

Verse 16...

"from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love."

This verse summarizes the section...verses 7-16.

When the Body, believers, use their talents and gifts to do the work of God "every part does its share. the result is "growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love".

So, in summary, I interpret verses 7-16 as an explanation that we as the Body...Christians...believers... have been given gifts to utilize to further the kingdom of God. We're cited examples of what some of us would be called to become. I feel that every Christian can fit underneath one of the cited examples...prophet, evangelist, apostle and teacher. We are Christ's living disciples. When we spread the gospel...we are teaching others. We are all charged with the same responsibility...to share the gospel, regardless of which talents and gifts we've been blessed with.

And the purpose for receiving such gifts is to utilize them "for the work of the ministry" (Verse 12).

When we bring others to the unity of the faith...bring others to Christ by witnessing to them...they will no longer be children that are tossed to and fro in the wind and when they accept Christ and begin their walk...they will then desire to grow in all things that are of Christ.

Read verses 17-24...these deal with the rebirth...and putting aside one's former conduct. It ALL flows together.

And the next sections in the book of Ephesians deal with walking in love, walking in the light and walking in wisdom...all the things that fall into place after one has given their life to Christ.

Here is how I interpret them:

Christ gave us prophets and apostles, pastors, evangelists, teachers, etc. Their purpose would be to help His followers become more perfect, to minister to them, and to teach them, so that they will eventually become fully mature in Christ. This organization should remain in effect until we are all unified in our faith and knowledge of Christ. Othewise, we would be like children, taught many conflicting doctrines and not knowing which ones to believe, being influenced by cunning and crafty men whose goal it is to deceive them.

I don't interpret the children who are being tossed to and fro to be Christians in this verse. I feel that the "children" are those who have yet to be saved. And it's the apostles, pastors, evangelists and teachers, etc. who are charged with bringing them to Christ. We are no different from these as we have ALL been called to carry out the Great Commission. God has chosen to call us invididually, to use our own unique gifts and talents to reach out to people.


Many churches have pastors, evangelists and teachers. But as Ephesians 2:20 states, Christ's Church was "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." What happens to any structure if the foundation crumbles? The structure itself falls. Prophets and Apostles are just as essential now as they were when Christ built His Church on them.

The foundation isn't the church, though, in my opinion. The foundation is Christ. And Christ is found within each of us. My foundation can't crumble. Take away every church...every "religion"...and we still have Christ.

We can apply this to ourselves, as individuals "What happens to any structure if the foundation crumbles?

What happens to our souls without it's foundation (Christ)? We crumble.

Not that I'm discounting the literalism here...that Christ appointed certain individuals to build His church...I just don't believe that Christ placed any more emphasis on the authority of the church than he did on the authority that each believer posesses. And I can provide scripture that tells us that the believer has authority. I'm not trying to discount the importance of the church but I feel that Christians have been given more than many of us choose to acknowledge.

For example, an exorcism. (This isn't a flame against Catholics. I happen to have quite a bit of respect for Catholics.)

According to the Bible, Christians can drive out demons. You don't have to hold a specific rank in the church. Christ said that His people would cast out demons. Who are His people? His sheep...His children...Christians.

You know where I stand on this issue, Dawn. I believe that an apostasy was prophesied by the Apostles, particulary by Paul. He believed it would take place and that it was beginning to do so during his own lifetime. He went so far as to say that Christ would not return until it had taken place. He also prophesied of a restoration. I believe that restoration has taken place.

I'm not entirely sure what I believe about the apostosy but it really does help to read the thoughts and beliefs of others, so please know that I really appreciate the time and effort in posting because it's always helpful to me and it's edifying to open my bible, review and read.

In reading 1 Tim, Chapter 4...if this is all there is biblically on the apostosy...to me, it just reads literally...that in latter times there would be individuals who leave the faith. And look around us...there no doubt have been people who have left the faith. I just don't see the apostosy as an event here...like a turning point in Christian history.

So, maybe you could help me here. Am I looking at the correct scripture on the subject? Is there anything else that further expounds. I understand that scripture probably refers to apostosy as in falling away from ones faith but as far as the "Great Apostosy as being a turning point...I'd really like to read on that for further clarification and I'm not sure where to find it.:D

God bless, Dawny. If anybody is found in Him, you are.

That means a lot to me and I express the very same sentiments to you, Katherine. Thank you for your post.
 

may

Well-Known Member
faithfulness leads to great blessings , and then responsibility, matthew 24;45-47 the faithful slave that Jesus is giving great responsibility too , is alive and active, feeding from the table of the faithful ones is the thing to do, we will be full up and spriritually fed,and all of this spiritual food is from Jesus and his father Jehovah God.
 

Snowbear

Nita Okhata
dawny0826 said:
The whole topic of apostasy has just made me question what Christ thinks about the churches that I've attended throughout my life. Does Christ see fault in the religion that I've chosen?
I think Christ is OK with any church that gathers members *in His Name*
Matthew 18:19 Again I say to you that if two of you shall agree on earth as regarding anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them by My Father in Heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst.


IMHO, the Great Apostacy is the turning away from Christ. This would include the churches that have turned away from Christ's teaching and instead, are tickling ears with what the people want to hear...
2Timothy 4:2 preach the Word, be instant in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine.
3 For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but they will heap up teachers to themselves according to their own lusts, tickling the ear.
4 And they will turn away their ears from the truth and will be turned to myths.

 

Snowbear

Nita Okhata
dawny0826 said:
So, maybe you could help me here. Am I looking at the correct scripture on the subject? Is there anything else that further expounds. I understand that scripture probably refers to apostosy as in falling away from ones faith but as far as the "Great Apostosy as being a turning point...I'd really like to read on that for further clarification and I'm not sure where to find it.
I don't think there's a single scripture on the matter. As you noted, any turning away from Christ as the foundation of our Faith and of our church is the apostacy. Jesus warns us of it as do the apostles, including Paul.
God isn't the author of confusion, so I wonder why there's so much that I find confusing, know what I mean?
No He most certainly is not... Satan sure is though and he would like nothing better than to confuse Dawny (or may or Becky or James or Snowbear or anyone) :(

What you have done in your study of Ephesians is excellent, BTW :D
 

PetShopBoy88

Active Member
Snowbear said:
I think Christ is OK with any church that gathers members *in His Name*
Matthew 18:19 Again I say to you that if two of you shall agree on earth as regarding anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them by My Father in Heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst.


On cannot, however, simply say it is in Christ's name. It has to be truly in his name, in action as well as word.
 

piglet17

New Member
< Bible ... the Church (which I'm assuming translates...Catholicsm) >
Why might you assume that?

< or turning away from Christ. >
In the New Testament, the church 'is' Christ. The church which is His Body

< When I see "turning away from the faith"...I automatically read this as turning away from Christ...not turning away from the church. >
Me too. Cuz there is no church without, or apart from, Christ. He's the Head, and source, and Savior, of His Body
 

Snowbear

Nita Okhata
PetShopBoy88 said:
On cannot, however, simply say it is in Christ's name. It has to be truly in his name, in action as well as word.
Absolutely! Thank you (and frubalations) for clarifying that :D
 
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