Which is Your True Self?

godnotgod · Apr 26, 2018

crossfire said:
"Indestructible Sunyata" does not make sense outside of making it into a "thing."

No. You're making it much too literal. Think of it this way:

"You are the 'Indestructible Emptiness",

which does not make it a 'thing'. It's just saying that your true nature is the same as Emptiness, or, as the Hindus put it:

"Tat tvam asi" ('Thou Art That'), where 'That' can never be a 'thing'. In fact, 'That' is No-thing.

So do you agree that if something is empty of inherent self-nature, then it is devoid of 'self'?

crossfire · Apr 26, 2018

godnotgod said:
No. You're making it much too literal. Think of it this way:

"You are the 'Indestructible Emptiness",

which does not make it a 'thing'. It's just saying that your true nature is the same as Emptiness, or, as the Hindus put it:

"Tat tvam asi" ('Thou Art That'), where 'That' can never be a 'thing'. In fact, 'That' is No-thing.

So do you agree that if something is empty of inherent self-nature, then it is devoid of 'self'?

"Conditioned and unconditioned phenomena are not-self."

godnotgod · Apr 26, 2018

Thief said:
no...not really....

before Abraham.......I AM! (God)

to say I have been with you always .......personifies a belief
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.....

if you abide as such.....you ARE that law
and that law has been with us since the dawn of our formation

No, Thief! You're grossly misunderstanding the passage, while adding in your own wording to change the meaning of Yeshua's statement. Yeshua is not saying he is God. In fact, he denies himself the glory of God. He is saying he has always existed in this eternal Present Moment, and that is how he is able to know Abraham even though he is not even 50 years of age. Look at the passage in context:

48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’a]">[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”b]">[b] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

John 8:48-59

godnotgod · Apr 26, 2018

crossfire said:
"Conditioned and unconditioned phenomena are not-self."

The conditioned mind creates the notion of 'self', but if it is actually not-self, so then 'self' must be illusory, right?

crossfire · Apr 26, 2018

godnotgod said:
The conditioned mind creates the notion of 'self', but if it is actually not-self, so then 'self' must be illusory, right?

Attaching the notion of self to any phenomena, conditioned or unconditioned, would produce dukkha.

godnotgod · Apr 27, 2018

crossfire said:
Attaching the notion of self to any phenomena, conditioned or unconditioned, would produce dukkha.

Right. And it produces dukkha because it is an illusion being treated as if it is reality. Kinda like jumping into an empty swimming pool. Ouch!

crossfire · Apr 27, 2018

godnotgod said:
Right. And it produces dukkha because it is an illusion being treated as if it is reality. Kinda like jumping into an empty swimming pool. Ouch!

I would say that attaching self to something "formless and infinite" such as "Indestructable Sunyata" would produce the same result of "jumping into an empty swimming pool."

Thief · Apr 27, 2018

godnotgod said:
No, Thief! You're grossly misunderstanding the passage, while adding in your own wording to change the meaning of Yeshua's statement. Yeshua is not saying he is God. In fact, he denies himself the glory of God. He is saying he has always existed in this eternal Present Moment, and that is how he is able to know Abraham even though he is not even 50 years of age. Look at the passage in context:

48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’a]">[a] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”b]">[b] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

John 8:48-59

nay....I get it.....

the crowd did not

His denial was only that He did not glorify Himself
( He was humble)

godnotgod · Apr 27, 2018

crossfire said:
I would say that attaching self to something "formless and infinite" such as "Indestructable Sunyata" would produce the same result of "jumping into an empty swimming pool."

So, then: in your view, is 'self' an illusion or not?

godnotgod · Apr 27, 2018

Thief said:
nay....I get it.....

the crowd did not

His denial was only that He did not glorify Himself
( He was humble)

But whether he claimed to be God or not is not the question here. It is that he existed before Abraham. Yeshua did not glorify himself in response to the crowd's accusation that he is greater than Abraham or is God. So essentially, he is saying he does not glorify himself by claiming to be greater than Abraham or being God.

crossfire · Apr 27, 2018

godnotgod said:
So, then: in your view, is 'self' an illusion or not?

It can be a useful concept.

Just don't mistake it as an unchangeable, eternal thing and make an attatchment (upādāna) with it to any conditioned or unconditioned phenomena. (That would be an illusion!)

Thief · Apr 27, 2018

godnotgod said:
But whether he claimed to be God or not is not the question here. It is that he existed before Abraham. Yeshua did not glorify himself in response to the crowd's accusation that he is greater than Abraham or is God. So essentially, he is saying he does not glorify himself by claiming to be greater than Abraham or being God.

did not say He might have been a son of God.....probably so

to say you existed before your birth is a play on words.

for someone like you.....that understanding should have been easy

I have always been with you.....
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

godnotgod · Apr 27, 2018

crossfire said:
It can be a useful concept.

Just don't mistake it as an unchangeable, eternal thing and make an attatchment (upādāna) with it to any conditioned or unconditioned phenomena. (That would be an illusion!)

It can only be useful if one understands it's illusory quality. The moment it is taken seriously, it begins to be the cause of much suffering. But it being taken seriously as an 'eternal thing' is what some of the religions do. Ego games are played because of it (God loves me more than he does you, etc.)

Thief · Apr 27, 2018

godnotgod said:
God loves me more than he does you, etc.

that is a serious possibility

godnotgod · Apr 27, 2018

Thief said:
did not say He might have been a son of God.....probably so

to say you existed before your birth is a play on words.

for someone like you.....that understanding should have been easy

As I understand it, 'Son of God' was a common title in ancient Jewish culture.

Are you saying t hat 'I Am' is a play on words? Do you understand that someone in the state of 'I Am' is in Being, and not in Existence? Existence is in Time and Space, ie 'birth and death'; Being is eternal.

Yeshua was definitely NOT saying 'I Am God'. You are adding something to the verse that is not there.

Thief · Apr 27, 2018

godnotgod said:
As I understand it, 'Son of God' was a common title in ancient Jewish culture.

Are you saying t hat 'I Am' is a play on words? Do you understand that someone in the state of 'I Am' is in Being, and not in Existence? Existence is in Time and Space, ie 'birth and death'; Being is eternal.

Yeshua was definitely NOT saying 'I Am God'. You are adding something to the verse that is not there.

and you are playing words to my post ...that are not my viewpoint

godnotgod · Apr 27, 2018

Thief said:
that is a serious possibility

It's one of his Major Flaws.

Thief · Apr 27, 2018

godnotgod said:
It's one of his Major Flaws.

nay....

a recognition of Hierarchy

godnotgod · Apr 27, 2018

Thief said:
and you are playing words to my post ...that are not my viewpoint

To say 'I Am' is to exist beyond birth and death; beyond history. That is what Yeshua is claiming.

You are the one who added 'God' to 'I Am'. So who is playing with words?

godnotgod · Apr 27, 2018

Thief said:
nay....

a recognition of Hierarchy

Hierarchy is to pattern the divine after the machinations of the human ego. It is one of Man's Major Flaws.

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