To Christians

may · Aug 29, 2006

Genna said:
Your a Christian right? you believe the bible to be Gods infallible and inerrant word right? so you agree with this:

Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So God can send someone to hell forever according to Jesus' own words, how is this compatible with His mercy and perfect righteousness? See, this is why I don't believe in religion.

Genna

i would say this is a more correct way of translating the verse in matthew 25;46
And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off,
Lit., "lopping off; pruning." Gr., ko´la·sin.
but the righteous ones into everlasting life. .............. cutting -off from the blessing of everlasting life is a bit diffarent from everlasting punishment. good translations work wonders ,and lead us to an accurate understanding about what the word of God is really saying. this on-line bible is a very good translation if you are after an accurate understanding about Gods word the bible

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures
The Bible has the power to mold our thinking, help us solve problems, and improve the quality of our life. Read the Bible online.

James the Persian · Aug 29, 2006

Genna said:
How else would you interpret what Jesus said beside how Christians interpret it?

Which Christians? Those of the hellfire and damnation type tend to see that verse as, roughly equivalent to 'Follow me or be damned!'. Those of us who believe that it is possible for God to save whomsoever He wills, regardless of whether they are Christian or not, see it as more like 'Those who are drawn to God come to Him through me, whether they know it or not'. This fits in perfectly well with Incarnational soteriology, which is the ancient understanding of the Eastern Church and which we uphold to this day. For us, sin is not seen in legalistic but rather medical terms and Christ's Incarnation healed human nature such that we are able to attain salvation rather than His crucifixion paying for our sins by His punishment in our stead. We believe, as do others on this thread, that God does not eternally punish anyone for failing to believe in Him but rather that we punish ourselves depending on our attitude to Him. Scripture tells us that God wills that all men might be saved. He desires the damnation of nobody.

James

Katzpur · Aug 29, 2006

retrorich said:
I've asked that question many times in these forums, and have yet to receive an answer that makes sense.

Well, maybe that's 'cause you're not listening. Many Christians on this forum have stated that that's not the way it works. You choose, however, to ignore them and continue to ask the same question over and over again. If you're just trying to pick a fight, you'll probably find someone willing to take you up on it. But if you're really looking for answers, don't just look the other way when someone provides them.

michel · Aug 29, 2006

Genna said:
How can such a loving God send someone to burn in hell forever for rejecting him? In other words, how can God send a finite person who is only capable of committing finite amount of sins in their life to an eternity in hell? This is justice? Genna

Retrorich said:
I've asked that question many times in these forums, and have yet to receive an answer that makes sense

I personally believe that Jesus Christ's life was the example to us all; the old testament is full of fire and brimstone, but Christ went to great pains (literally) to allow us to see that God wants nothing more than to forgive us; all that is needed is the realisation that we have sinned, the determination to try not to sin again, and the acceptance of God.

Fluffy · Aug 29, 2006

I personally believe that Jesus Christ's life was the example to us all; the old testament is full of fire and brimstone, but Christ went to great pains (literally) to allow us to see that God wants nothing more than to forgive us; all that is needed is the realisation that we have sinned, the determination to try not to sin again, and the acceptance of God.

I do not necessarily disagree with you but it is incorrect to imply that the fire and brimstone ended before Christ:

Matthew 13:42: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 25:41: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."
Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched."
Luke 16:24: "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."
Revelation 20:13-15: "...hell delivered up the dead which were in them...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Revelation 21:8: "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone."

In fact the only reference in the Bible of brimstone specifically in Hell is in Revelation (the last quotation).

shema · Aug 29, 2006

doppleganger said:
It's for the pleasure of those who gave up such sinful temptations that they might look down upon your suffering and torment for all eternity from heaven and thereby more fully appreciate the precious gift "God" has given them.

At least, that's what some say:
actually, A woman did fornicate by commiting adultry and the townspeople were about to stone her to death. however jesus saved her by telling the people. " he who has no sin may cast the first stone" then he told her that he forgave her and to not do it again.. but when he died, he took sin's place, and now we can be sinless, if we train ourselves. or let him train us not to.

shema · Aug 29, 2006

Genna said:
You said God will forgive a whole lot more than any of the world's judicial systems. When a person commits murder they are either given a life sentence, parole perhaps or the death sentence. In Christianity what happens if you die a murderer? I suppose your going to hell correct? and wouldn't it be hell without parole, and the life sentence is literally a eternal life sentence. So how does God forgive a whole lot more than any of the world's judicial systems, hmmm....I am going to have to think long and hard about this. Can't seem to connect the dots of Gods mercy!

Well If you Die a murderer, than you will go to hell, however if You die a christian than you will not..The apostle Paul had murdered, and had even killed Christians, however, after he got saved, He made the statement..I have wronged no man. Then wrote most of the New Testament.

Genna · Aug 29, 2006

beckysoup61 said:
Why would God send you to hell?

He doesn't is the answer.

Dunno? Some Christians who try and minister to me on the streets because of the way I dress and the activities I partake in tell me that if I live this way I am headed towards hell.

Genna · Aug 29, 2006

shema said:
Well If you Die a murderer, than you will go to hell, however if You die a christian than you will not..The apostle Paul had murdered, and had even killed Christians, however, after he got saved, He made the statement..I have wronged no man. Then wrote most of the New Testament.

Well sin is sin right? If someone dies a fornicator then they go to hell even if their a Christian? I'm sure that even christians can sin right? so what happens if they sin and die, are they headed to hell?

Genna · Aug 29, 2006

michel said:
I personally believe that Jesus Christ's life was the example to us all; the old testament is full of fire and brimstone, but Christ went to great pains (literally) to allow us to see that God wants nothing more than to forgive us; all that is needed is the realisation that we have sinned, the determination to try not to sin again, and the acceptance of God.

I've often heard christians say that we cannot possibly fathom God's ways, this is the reason why he can send us to hell for all of eternity! You said to try not to sin again, so essentially we can get to heaven by living a good enough life correct? are we seeing eye to eye here?

Genna · Aug 29, 2006

JamesThePersian said:
Which Christians? Those of the hellfire and damnation type tend to see that verse as, roughly equivalent to 'Follow me or be damned!'. Those of us who believe that it is possible for God to save whomsoever He wills, regardless of whether they are Christian or not, see it as more like 'Those who are drawn to God come to Him through me, whether they know it or not'. This fits in perfectly well with Incarnational soteriology, which is the ancient understanding of the Eastern Church and which we uphold to this day. For us, sin is not seen in legalistic but rather medical terms and Christ's Incarnation healed human nature such that we are able to attain salvation rather than His crucifixion paying for our sins by His punishment in our stead. We believe, as do others on this thread, that God does not eternally punish anyone for failing to believe in Him but rather that we punish ourselves depending on our attitude to Him. Scripture tells us that God wills that all men might be saved. He desires the damnation of nobody.

James

What do you mean that we punish ourselves? in this life or the next?

gnostic · Aug 29, 2006

Michel said:
I personally believe that Jesus Christ's life was the example to us all; the old testament is full of fire and brimstone, but Christ went to great pains (literally) to allow us to see that God wants nothing more than to forgive us; all that is needed is the realisation that we have sinned, the determination to try not to sin again, and the acceptance of God.

Although this is quoted from Michel's post, my post is mostly directed at you, Genna.

Actually, in Judaism, the Israelites in the Old Testament, or what they called the Tanakh, the Hebrew Scriptures, were always punished while living on earth - some were met with death as punishment, but some were punished in other way.

However, the Judaism had no fire and brimstone as punishment in the afterlife, this was what Jesus and the Christian doctines had brought in. There are no judgement, once you are dead from this life.

Islam in their Qur'an borrowed heavily from both Judaism and Christianity. Islam kept many of the older laws from Judaism, but the afterlife, paradise and hell, punishment and reward were adapted from Christianity. Whereas some Christians take literally the eternal damnation, as you can see from this thread, other Christians don't. Muslims believed they are punished according to deeds like upon a scale, where they weigh the goods and bads you have done, and God punished the individually accordingly, but the punishment doesn't last forever.

James the Persian · Aug 30, 2006

Genna said:
What do you mean that we punish ourselves? in this life or the next?

The next. Our belief is that everyone will live eternally, that heaven and hell are not places but experiences of God's inescapable love, which will be bliss to those that love Him and torment for those who hate Him:

"For our God is a consuming fire", (Heb. 12:29). The very fire which purifies gold, also consumes wood. Precious metals shine in it like the sun, rubbish burns with black smoke. All are in the same fire of Love. Some shine and others become black and dark. In the same furnace steel shines like the sun, whereas clay turns dark and is hardened like stone. The difference is in man, not in God. - Alexander Kalomiros, The River of Fire

I say that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love.... It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God's love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love's power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it - St. Isaac the Syrian, Homily 84

James

retrorich · Aug 30, 2006

Katzpur said:
Well, maybe that's 'cause you're not listening. Many Christians on this forum have stated that that's not the way it works. You choose, however, to ignore them and continue to ask the same question over and over again.

Obviously, I direct that question to people, Christian or otherwise, who DO believe that is the way it works. For me, the question is hypothetical, since I don't believe in God, Heaven, Hell or any other form of life after death.

Genna · Aug 30, 2006

JamesThePersian said:
The next. Our belief is that everyone will live eternally, that heaven and hell are not places but experiences of God's inescapable love, which will be bliss to those that love Him and torment for those who hate Him:

"For our God is a consuming fire", (Heb. 12:29). The very fire which purifies gold, also consumes wood. Precious metals shine in it like the sun, rubbish burns with black smoke. All are in the same fire of Love. Some shine and others become black and dark. In the same furnace steel shines like the sun, whereas clay turns dark and is hardened like stone. The difference is in man, not in God. - Alexander Kalomiros, The River of Fire

I say that those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love.... It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God's love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love's power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it - St. Isaac the Syrian, Homily 84

James

If your a orthodox Christian, why are you quoting something outside of the bible? Can you show me where St. Isaac the Syrians words are backed up in the bible? I read the bible and I recall words as weeping and gnashing of your teeth, everlasting torment, your worm never dying, outer darkness, cutting him into pieces, etc.. this hardly sounds like St. Isaac the Syrian theory! hmmm.....

Booko · Aug 30, 2006

Genna said:
How else would you interpret what Jesus said beside how Christians interpret it?

Mainly that He was the Way for His time...until the next Prophet comes.

Booko · Aug 30, 2006

Genna said:
Dunno? Some Christians who try and minister to me on the streets because of the way I dress and the activities I partake in tell me that if I live this way I am headed towards hell.

Ask them which chapter the dress code is in, because you'd like to research it yourself so you don't mess up.

I've no idea what activities you partake in that they refer to, and it really doesn't matter.

Even outside a religious context, people do self-destructive things to themselves, and sometimes they do rather end up in a hell of their own making. Uh...ask any addict. It's not a fun way to live.

Also, please keep in mind that Bible-thumpers in the street are an incredibly tiny minority in Christianity and therefore not representative.

lunamoth · Aug 30, 2006

Booko said:
Mainly that He was the Way for His time...until the next Prophet comes.

Do you think He could have also meant that He was the eternal Way?

Katzpur · Aug 30, 2006

Genna said:
If your a orthodox Christian, why are you quoting something outside of the bible? Can you show me where St. Isaac the Syrians words are backed up in the bible? I read the bible and I recall words as weeping and gnashing of your teeth, everlasting torment, your worm never dying, outer darkness, cutting him into pieces, etc.. this hardly sounds like St. Isaac the Syrian theory! hmmm.....

Just a quick bit of info for you, Genna. Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholic Christians do not accept the doctrine of Sola Scriptura (LDS Christians don't either, for that matter). For the most part, it is only Protestant denominations that insist that the Bible is inerrant and complete. So James is using tradition outside of the scriptures to support his point of view.

Genna · Aug 30, 2006

Katzpur said:
Just a quick bit of info for you, Genna. Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholic Christians do not accept the doctrine of Sola Scriptura (LDS Christians don't either, for that matter). For the most part, it is only Protestant denominations that insist that the Bible is inerrant and complete. So James is using tradition outside of the scriptures to support his point of view.

So you don't believe that Jesus actually uttered those words? than how do you know which words are actually his (inerrant) and which aren't? Here it is:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Mark 9:44-48]

How do you explain this?

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