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why evil?

stvdv

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
If God is omnibenevolent, then He would WANT to create the best of all possible universes.
If God is omniscient, then He would know HOW to create the best of all possible universes.
If God is omnipotent, then He would have the POWER to create the best of all possible universes.

A Vestigial Mote said:
All this speculation... ::: shakes head :::
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I do like this. @Axe Elf: thought this through very well. If he created this all by himself I think it's very creative.
From Indian scriptures I remember: Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent
Omnibenevolent I have never heard God has this attribute
But this takes care of the problem "God is a mean fellow"
So might work for many on this forum

Omnipresent also takes care of that. But it takes a little more creative mind to figure that one out
 
Sunstone

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
syo said:
why did God create evil? people can do awful things to others, WHY?
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Sometimes a more interesting question is why natural "evils". Man made evils can in some ways be explained. But why killer tornadoes, why tsunamis, why earthquakes, etc? Or why parasites, diseases, genetic defects, infirmatives of age? Do these things make sense if there is a god and that god is both all powerful and all good?
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
Skwim said:
That is pathetic.

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Pathetic is someone who twists the scriptures they don't even believe in the first place.

The Hebrew word used for evil means “calamity.” Calamity is physical evil. The word in this verse is not used to mean that God created moral evil (as atheists and even Calvinists try to imply). God talks about bringing “evil” or calamity to a city to punish their sins (Nehemiah. 13:18; Jeremiah. 21:10; 25:29; Amos 3:6). God did not say, “I make righteousness and create evil.” Evil in Isaiah 45:7 is not contrasted with righteousness, but is contrasted with peace, because the evil referred to is calamity... not moral evil.
 
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InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
Sunstone said:
Sometimes a more interesting question is why natural "evils". Man made evils can in some ways be explained. But why killer tornadoes, why tsunamis, why earthquakes, etc? Or why parasites, diseases, genetic defects, infirmatives of age? Do these things make sense if there is a god and that god is both all powerful and all good?
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The scriptures indicate that all creation is now in bondage and impacted by the devastation of sin, experiencing birth pangs, and groaning to be delivered by God. (Romans 8)
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
InChrist said:
Pathetic is someone who twists the scriptures they don't even believe in the first place.
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Exactly what scriptures have I twisted? And how?

The Hebrew word used for evil means “calamity.”
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Really, other than yourself who says so? In my source, Strong's Concordance, the meaning of the word in question, רָעַ (ra), when used as a noun (as it is in Isaiah 45:7) is listed as "evil" in all six of its categories. Moreover, it is the first definition, the most common definition given in all six categories. In fact, "ra" is translated as "evil" 442 times in the Bible, whereas "calamity" doesn't appear as a translation at all; although it may be one of 34 uses categorized under miscellaneous.

.
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
Skwim said:
Exactly what scriptures have I twisted? And how?


Really, other than yourself who says so? In my source, Strong's Concordance, the meaning of the word in question, רָעַ (ra), when used as a noun (as it is in Isaiah 45:7) is listed as "evil" in all six of its categories. Moreover, it is the first definition, the most common definition given in all six categories. In fact, "ra" is translated as "evil" 442 times in the Bible, whereas "calamity" doesn't appear as a translation at all; although it may be one of 34 uses categorized under miscellaneous.

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"Is God really the one who created evil? To answer the question we must first look at how the word for evil, rah, is used in the Bible, examine the context of the Isaiah 45:7 passage, and look at other passages on the same subject.


First of all, the Hebrew word for evil, rah, is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as evil. The other 232 times it is translated as wicked, bad, hurt, harm, ill, sorrow, mischief, displeased, adversity, affliction, trouble, calamity, grievous, misery, and trouble. So we can see that the word does not require that it be translated as evil. This is why different Bibles translate this verse differently. It is translated as calamity by the NASB and NKJV; disaster by the NIV; and woe by the RSV.


Second, the context of the verse is speaking of natural phenomena.


"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these," (Isaiah 45:5-7).


Notice that the context of the verse is dealing with who God is, that it is God who speaks of natural phenomena (sun, light, dark), and it is God who is able to cause "well-being" as well as "calamity." Contextually, this verse is dealing with natural disasters and human comfort issues. It is not speaking of moral evil; rather, it is dealing with calamity, distress, etc. This is consistent with other scriptures. For example,


  • "And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?" (Exodus 4:11).
  • "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6).

Also, take note that Isaiah is presenting contrasts. He speaks of "light" and "darkness," "well being" and "calamity." The word "well-being" in the Hebrew is the word for 'peace,' "Shalome." So, in the context, we are seeing two sets of opposites: Light and dark, peace and non-peace, or well being and calamity. The "evil" that is spoken of is not ontological evil, but the evil experienced by people in the form of calamity."
Does God create evil? | CARM.org
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
InChrist said:
"Is God really the one who created evil? To answer the question we must first look at how the word for evil, rah, is used in the Bible, examine the context of the Isaiah 45:7 passage, and look at other passages on the same subject.
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And the tap dancing begins.

twyAeSV.gif
​


First of all, the Hebrew word for evil, rah, is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as evil. The other 232 times it is translated as wicked, bad, hurt, harm, ill, sorrow, mischief, displeased, adversity, affliction, trouble, calamity, grievous, misery, and trouble. So we can see that the word does not require that it be translated as evil. This is why different Bibles translate this verse differently. It is translated as calamity by the NASB and NKJV; disaster by the NIV; and woe by the RSV.


Second, the context of the verse is speaking of natural phenomena.


"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these," (Isaiah 45:5-7).


Notice that the context of the verse is dealing with who God is, that it is God who speaks of natural phenomena (sun, light, dark), and it is God who is able to cause "well-being" as well as "calamity." Contextually, this verse is dealing with natural disasters and human comfort issues. It is not speaking of moral evil; rather, it is dealing with calamity, distress, etc. This is consistent with other scriptures. For example,
Click to expand...
  • And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?" (Exodus 4:11).
  • "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6).

Also, take note that Isaiah is presenting contrasts. He speaks of "light" and "darkness," "well being" and "calamity." The word "well-being" in the Hebrew is the word for 'peace,' "Shalome." So, in the context, we are seeing two sets of opposites: Light and dark, peace and non-peace, or well being and calamity. The "evil" that is spoken of is not ontological evil, but the evil experienced by people in the form of calamity."
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All of which is no less pathetic than your first offering. But don't get me wrong, I don't blame you or your sources for trying to extricate god from the import of his very straight forward message "I. . .create evil." It's gotta be a real kick in the teeth to the serious Christian. Here's their god, who they've been told is Wise, Perfection, Love, Merciful, Just, Truth, Righteous, Good, and Full of grace, but has the audacity to tell everyone he creates evil---guess one could add Honesty to the list of his attributes. Hardly a nice thing to do for all those who are trying their damnedest to hold god up as the the epitome of moral rectitude. But there we have it in black and white.

​
"I create evil, I the LORD do all these things."
​

As I see it, the Christian has several options to deal with this outrageous revelation.

1. Ignore it. Probably the most common reaction: "I - c a n 't - h e a r - y o u!"

2. Pretend it isn't really evil as we understand the word. "Ah, when god uses the word "evil" he means pumpkins: "I create pumpkins, I the LORD do all these things."

3. Try to excuse it. "God creates evil in order to give meaning to good." "Sorry folks, but I just couldn't do it without the help of evil. :shrug:".

4. Concoct a tap dance and double talk routine so as to bury it: "Notice that the context of the verse is dealing with who God is, that it is God who speaks of natural phenomena (sun, light, dark), and it is God who is able to cause "well-being" as well as "calamity." Contextually, this verse is dealing with natural disasters and human comfort issues. It is not speaking of moral evil; rather, it is dealing with calamity, distress, etc. This is consistent with other scriptures."

​
Sorry InChrist, but no sale.

.​
 
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stvdv

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Sunstone said:
Sometimes a more interesting question is why natural "evils". Man made evils can in some ways be explained. But why killer tornadoes, why tsunamis, why earthquakes, etc? Or why parasites, diseases, genetic defects, infirmatives of age? Do these things make sense if there is a god and that god is both all powerful and all good?
Click to expand...

If you question God, then you assume God exists [Hypothetical]
If God exist you can assume He [She, It or whatever] is dumm or smart or in between
I have to take care of my own life, and find it not always very easy

The universe is already around for quite a long time
The sun keeping in balance is quite remarkable; I mean a little more heat than my candle to keep in check

Considering the above, I would say God is doing a great job
And all this without us seeing Him busy handling stuff

So I guess if he keeps the sun moving around the earth
Oh wait, the earth, we humans are not that important in this universe
We sometimes forget, and think we are the centre of the universe
And have sometimes a little arrogance
Questioning God etc.
Luckily God doesn't get irritated as quick as me
He would have burnt all humans many times

So your above mentioned "stuff" might be just perfect

Praise the Lord
I would say is more in place
Then questioning whether He does/did His job well

But it's a good question to ask, anyway. Our goal, according to scriptures is to find out our goal and reach it. Part of that is questioning if God exists, and did His job right IMHO

Just a little brainstorming
 
Phantasman

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
dmap said:
In my opinion, God didn't create evil.
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It's an orthodox catholic thing. Which is why I follow the Gospel and not the OT books, They misled the Jews as well.

Isaiah:
5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

John:
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
 
stvdv

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Phantasman said:
It's an orthodox catholic thing. Which is why I follow the Gospel and not the OT books, They misled the Jews as well.

Isaiah:
5 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

John:
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Click to expand...

I love that quote of Isaiah. It's a topper for me. Totally in sync with the highest form of advaita from the indian scriptures. I also see this truth in the Islam. So to dispose of this might not be the smartest thing, if it is written in so many scriptures. For me especially these verses are far from misleading. It points to the Oneness, the Truth, the non-duality. Those people were highly inspired by God, not inspired by dark music or the internet as many humans nowadays. But by real connection with the divine in themselves; the "innernet", not the "internet". I respect them for that. They were great visionairs. Of course believers that come after them misinterpret things and made a mess out of it. But those prophets were the real deal. To just dismiss them doesn't show wisdom. Of course it's good to question their truth. I think the misled Jews were misled by themselves, not by the Prophet Isaiah.

IMHO
 
ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Phantasman said:
I love to fantasize. Are you holding a hairbrush when instructing?:)
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No,i am being precise in my wording while you attempt to mock and make up nonsense in reply. I allows me to realise just how you organise your faith and leads me with only once course of action but to treat you as you deserve to be treated.
 
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