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All knowing God

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Could somebody please give me the scripture verses that support the idea that God knows everything that will happen before it happens.

It's just hard for me to see God as being very disappointed or hurt by my sins when he knew I would commit those sins thousands of years in advance.

He already knows what I will do with my life and knows whether I will go to heaven or hell, right?
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
"Whatever is done in secret shall come to light" etc etc because "The Lord sees all things"
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
He already knows what I will do with my life and knows whether I will go to heaven or hell, right?

Correct.

Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love. For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [because it pleased Him and was His kind intent] --Ephesians 1:4-5 (Amplified Bible)

It's just hard for me to see God as being very disappointed or hurt by my sins when he knew I would commit those sins thousands of years in advance.

He's not.

And not only that, but this too: Rebecca conceived [two sons under exactly the same circumstances] by our forefather Isaac, and the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God's purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them], it was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob). What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion. So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use? --Romans 9:10-21 (Amplified Bible)

Could somebody please give me the scripture verses that support the idea that God knows everything that will happen before it happens.

I don't think there are any verses that explicitly say that God "knows" everything that will happen before it happens, but there are dozens that indicate that God CREATED everything to happen exactly as it happens (which is kind of the same thing as knowing, since by determining what events occur, one obviously knows what those events are). Here are a couple dozen to get you started (all citations are from the Amplified Bible).

Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them. --Psalm 139:16

The Lord has made everything [to accommodate itself and contribute] to its own end and His own purpose--even the wicked [are fitted for their role] for the day of calamity and evil. --Proverbs 16:4

A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps and makes them sure. --Proverbs 16:9

The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is wholly of the Lord [even the events that seem accidental are really ordered by Him]. --Proverbs 16:33

Many plans are in a man's mind, but it is the Lord's purpose for him that will stand. --Proverbs 19:21

Man's steps are ordered by the Lord. How then can a man understand his way? --Proverbs 20:24

The King’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as are the watercourses; He turns it whichever way He wills. --Proverbs 21:1

Before I formed you in the womb I knew [and] approved of you [as My chosen instrument], and before you were born I separated and set you apart, consecrating you; [and] I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. --Jeremiah 1:5

O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps. --Jeremiah 10:23

Since a man's days are already determined, and the number of his months is wholly in Your control, and he cannot pass the bounds of his allotted time --Job 14:5

No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day. --John 6:44

And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father. --John 6:65

Blessed (happy, fortunate, to be envied) is the man whom You choose and cause to come near, that he may dwell in Your courts! --Psalm 65:4a

This Jesus, when delivered up according to the definite and fixed purpose and settled plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and put out of the way [killing Him] by the hands of lawless and wicked men. --Acts 2:23

For in this city there actually met and plotted together against Your holy Child and Servant Jesus, Whom You consecrated by anointing, both Herod and Pontius Pilate with the Gentiles and peoples of Israel, to carry out all that Your hand and Your will and purpose had predestined (predetermined) should occur. --Acts 4:27-28

And when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified (praised and gave thanks for) the Word of God; and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior). --Acts 13:48

And He made from one [common origin, one source, one blood] all nations of men to settle on the face of the earth, having definitely determined [their] allotted periods of time and the fixed boundaries of their habitation (their settlements, lands, and abodes), --Acts 17:26

We are assured and know that [God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose. For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren. And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being]. --Romans 8:28-30

What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [God's favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it). As it is written, God gave them a spirit (an attitude) of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, [that has continued] down to this very day. --Romans 11:7-8

But when He, Who had chosen and set me apart [even] before I was born and had called me by His grace (His undeserved favor and blessing), saw fit and was pleased --Galations 1:15

[He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth. In Him we also were made [God's] heritage (portion) and we obtained an inheritance; for we had been foreordained (chosen and appointed beforehand) in accordance with His purpose, Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His [own] will, --Ephesians 1:10-11

For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live]. --Ephesians 2:10

[Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight. --Phillippians 2:13

Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error and a strong delusion to make them believe what is false, in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness. But we, brethren beloved by the Lord, ought and are obligated [as those who are in debt] to give thanks always to God for you, because God chose you from the beginning as His firstfruits (first converts) for salvation through the sanctifying work of the [Holy] Spirit and [your] belief in (adherence to, trust in, and reliance on) the Truth. --2 Thessalonians 2:11-13

It is true that He was chosen and foreordained (destined and foreknown for it) before the foundation of the world, but He was brought out to public view (made manifest) in these last days (at the end of the times) for the sake of you. --1 Peter 1:20

And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world. --Revelation 13:8

The beast that you saw [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is going to come up out of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and proceed to go to perdition. And the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been recorded in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they look at the beast, because he [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is [yet] to come. --Revelation 17:8
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Could somebody please give me the scripture verses that support the idea that God knows everything that will happen before it happens.

It's just hard for me to see God as being very disappointed or hurt by my sins when he knew I would commit those sins thousands of years in advance.

He already knows what I will do with my life and knows whether I will go to heaven or hell, right?

An ancient anthropomorphic view of God kept on life support in Christianity.
 
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Apologes

Active Member
I wouldn't say God is disappointed in you in any temporal sense. What God knows, He knows tenselessly. That is to say, God was aware of the fact that S would commit a sin A if he were to create S in given circumstances C. So if it were the case that S' doing A in circumstances C would make God disappointed, then God would be disappointed tenselessly, regardless of whether such a thing is in the present or not.

I find this to be an unfitting view of the Christian God so I'm more sympathetic of the view that when the scriptures say that God is sad, angry, jealous or disappointed (I don't remember them ever using that term though), they're using language of that time. God isn't a being that can be sad or surprised. Rather as a perfect being, God enjoys eternal bliss and, being transcendent, humanity doesn't have the power to influence God's inner life or mental state. Rather, what these statements could be taken to mean is that God simply doesn't prefer that S do A in C. They tell us something about God's standards and our living up to them instead of reporting actual disturbances in God's emotional state.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I wouldn't say God is disappointed in you in any temporal sense. What God knows, He knows tenselessly. That is to say, God was aware of the fact that S would commit a sin A if he were to create S in given circumstances C. So if it were the case that S' doing A in circumstances C would make God disappointed, then God would be disappointed tenselessly, regardless of whether such a thing is in the present or not.

I find this to be an unfitting view of the Christian God so I'm more sympathetic of the view that when the scriptures say that God is sad, angry, jealous or disappointed (I don't remember them ever using that term though), they're using language of that time. God isn't a being that can be sad or surprised. Rather as a perfect being, God enjoys eternal bliss and, being transcendent, humanity doesn't have the power to influence God's inner life or mental state. Rather, what these statements could be taken to mean is that God simply doesn't prefer that S do A in C. They tell us something about God's standards and our living up to them instead of reporting actual disturbances in God's emotional state.

Many of the beliefs in Christianity are still are still interrelated with the Old Testament scripture of the anthropomorphic description of God, including the Book of Revelation. Being selective about how the Bible describes God is riddled with contradictions, and the Church Fathers pretty much considered the Old Testament as is and literal, and this is reflected in the New Testament compilation..
 
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Apologes

Active Member
Many of the beliefs in Christianity are still are still interrelated with the Old Testament scripture of the anthropomorphic description of God, including the Book of Revelation.

From where I'm standing, it seems that the theologians have gone in the completely opposite direction (too much in my opinion) of negative theology and insisting that we can only speak of what God is not. Even those who do not tend to rightfully reject such descriptions in the manner I proposed. What are your examples?

Being selective about how the Bible describes God is riddled with contradictions, and the Church Fathers pretty much considered the Old Testament as is and literal, and this is reflected in the New Testament compilation..

The Church Fathers went back and forth on the issue of literalism and the question of literal and allegorical interpretations was always on the table. One need only look at Origen, Augustine and Aquinas to know that. If you're saying that Christians take the OT (or even NT) literally (save for the parts that "don't work any more"), or even if you just think that we take the antropomorphic descriptions as literal you need to read more Christian theology.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The Church Fathers went back and forth on the issue of literalism and the question of literal and allegorical interpretations was always on the table. One need only look at Origen, Augustine and Aquinas to know that. If you're saying that Christians take the OT (or even NT) literally (save for the parts that "don't work any more"), or even if you just think that we take the antropomorphic descriptions as literal you need to read more Christian theology.

Deal with first part later, but I will provide references. The Church Fathers did not go back and forth, and almost all believed in a literal interpretation of scripture, even though some differed including St. Augustine. Some using selective citations try to change this, but no, I will provide references next post.
 

Apologes

Active Member
Deal with first part later, but I will provide references. The Church Fathers did not go back and forth, and almost all believed in a literal interpretation of scripture, even though some differed including St. Augustine. Some using selective citations try to change this, but no, I will provide references next post.

I'm not denying that the Church Fathers believed in the literal interpretation. I'm saying they weren't blind to the allegorical interpretations and they didn't reject them as heretical or flawed, hence why throughout Church history these interpretations were on the table as they are today. The fact that the early Christians accepted the literal interpretation of texts like Genesis rather than an allegorical one was due to the fact that there was no need to think they were anything but literal.

As our understanding of the texts developed, and the canon formed, we understood different way in which we can read the texts. The Bible was widely taken as literal word-for-word only relatively recently by the fundamentalists pressured by the waning orthodoxy in the face of liberal theology. The Church has before and after (to this day) affirmed the texts to have allegorical meanings with the question being to what extent they go. Today, the Roman Catholic Church as well as the Orthodox affirm both the allegorical understandings as well as the non-antropomorphic discussion about God. (The very embracing of the doctrine of trinity was a big step in moving away from antropomorhism and into the world of metaphysics.)

Regardless, what I was presenting in my original post was a view not necessarily dependent on the tradition (whatever it may be) and an argument for the non-antropomorhic understanding of the divine life understood from the perspective of anselmian perfect being theology which has seen it's fair share of acceptance from Christians today.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I'm not denying that the Church Fathers believed in the literal interpretation. I'm saying they weren't blind to the allegorical interpretations and they didn't reject them as heretical or flawed, hence why throughout Church history these interpretations were on the table as they are today. The fact that the early Christians accepted the literal interpretation of texts like Genesis rather than an allegorical one was due to the fact that there was no need to think they were anything but literal.

The Church Fathers that considered the possibility or the reality of allegorical interpretation held to both and not one nor the other.

As our understanding of the texts developed, and the canon formed, we understood different way in which we can read the texts. The Bible was widely taken as literal word-for-word only relatively recently by the fundamentalists pressured by the waning orthodoxy in the face of liberal theology. The Church has before and after (to this day) affirmed the texts to have allegorical meanings with the question being to what extent they go. Today, the Roman Catholic Church as well as the Orthodox affirm both the allegorical understandings as well as the non-antropomorphic discussion about God. (The very embracing of the doctrine of trinity was a big step in moving away from antropomorhism and into the world of metaphysics.)

There always has been both anthropomorphic and non-anthropomorphic interpretations in discussions about God. Nothing new here, nothing has really changed, and that does not change the problems. The anthropomorphic understandings of the nature of God remain at the heart of traditional Christian Doctrines and Dogmas.

Regardless, what I was presenting in my original post was a view not necessarily dependent on the tradition (whatever it may be) and an argument for the non-antropomorhic understanding of the divine life understood from the perspective of anselmian perfect being theology which has seen it's fair share of acceptance from Christians today.

What you describe is the reform to make the Bible fit, and the result has been many churches.
 
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