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Original Sin

outlawState

Deism is dead
There are two doctrines of original sin. The Augustinian "Manichean" one, which posits an evil, material world of darkness versus the good spiritual world of light, and the Pauline Armenian version that simply posits that all men have sinned where sin is in the world.
 

Trackdayguy

Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall
I'll be interested to see how other Christians respond to this, it's intriguing.

I'm hoping with an open mind.

I for one believed this for many years. The issue that really changed everything for me, was starting to see that most of my faith was in my doctrines and not in God. Sadly much of Christianity is built upon doctrines that were introduced years after the death of Christ, they also include the virgin birth another sacred cow.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
One of the biggest guilt trips ever inflicted on man, and a sacred cow that needs to be sent to the slaughter house.
Not if you understood it. But sadly, you have been misled by countless "believers" that likewise do not understand it and so continue to preach misinformation about it.

In the story, mankind's original sin is not "disobeying God" by eating an apple. It's presuming unto himself a knowledge of good and evil that he does not and cannot really possess, so that he can then see and stand in judgment of all that is, including himself and each other, as though he were God's equal. The sin that begins all sins wasn't disobedience, it was hubris. And it's a sin we are still all committing.
 

Trackdayguy

Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall
Its sad that the message of Christianity is centered around sin, guilt and shame instead of love, acceptance and empowerment. No wonder the millennial's have little interest in it.
 

WalterTrull

Godfella
Boy, has original sin been bandied about through the centuries. My thinking is that there is a basic (original?) sin that propagates the rest. That would be the attempt to break the first commandment. (No other Gods). While you can't actually have other Gods, the attempt can be very uncomfortable.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
Its sad that the message of Christianity is centered around sin, guilt and shame instead of love, acceptance and empowerment. No wonder the millennial's have little interest in it.
I disagree with your thesis. The message of Christianity as preached today in not centred on sin, guilt and shame, and so the love, acceptance and empowerment that it offers are treated as meaningles and empty and irrelevant. If there no sin, guilt or shame there is no need for any gospel.
 

Trackdayguy

Speed doesn't kill, it's hitting the wall
I disagree with your thesis. The message of Christianity as preached today in not centred on sin, guilt and shame, and so the love, acceptance and empowerment that it offers are treated as meaningles and empty and irrelevant. If there no sin, guilt or shame there is no need for any gospel.

There is because the word Gospel means GOOD NEWS. Jesus massage was good news.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Not if you understood it. But sadly, you have been misled by countless "believers" that likewise do not understand it and so continue to preach misinformation about it.

In the story, mankind's original sin is not "disobeying God" by eating an apple. It's presuming unto himself a knowledge of good and evil that he does not and cannot really possess, so that he can then see and stand in judgment of all that is, including himself and each other, as though he were God's equal. The sin that begins all sins wasn't disobedience, it was hubris. And it's a sin we are still all committing.

Yeah, knowledge is rubbish. What has knowledge ever done for us? :oops:
 

WalterTrull

Godfella
Yeah, knowledge is rubbish. What has knowledge ever done for us? :oops:
It has totally to do with how that knowledge is dispensed.
knowledge_dispenser.jpg
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
One of the biggest guilt trips ever inflicted on man, and a sacred cow that needs to be sent to the slaughter house.

OVER 100 BIBLE TEXTS THAT SHOW THE DOCTRINE OF ORIGINAL SIN IS UNBIBLICAL AND FALSE
Boy, if you look at Romans 5 there certainly appears to be a basis for it.


Romans 5:12-21
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned— 13 sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. 14 Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come.

15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died through the one man’s trespass, much more surely have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abounded for the many. 16 And the free gift is not like the effect of the one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. 17 If, because of the one man’s trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. 19 For just as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 But law came in, with the result that the trespass multiplied; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, just as sin exercised dominion in death, so grace might also exercise dominion through justificationa]">[a] leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
And god even referenced what he had done.

Genesis 8:21
And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.
And a sin can't get much earlier than Adam's to be original.

Yeah, looking into it a bit Jesus doesn't seem to have mentioned "original sin" by name, probably because the concept wasn't given a label until the second century; however, just because he didn't identify it by name doesn't mean he didn't think it existed. Before Jesus' time the notion was mentioned in the OT.

Psalm 51:5 says
"I was born to do wrong,
a sinner before I left my mother’s womb."
And after Jesus it was also referred to.

Ephesians 2:3
All of us once lived among these people, and followed the desires of our corrupt nature.
We did what our corrupt desires and thoughts wanted us to do.
So, because of our nature, we deserved God’s anger just like everyone else.

.

 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, file with Purgatory and The Trinity - all man made garbage.
And exactly how do you supposedly know that? Mind you, I don't believe in either one, but I'm simply not going to the extreme that you are taking it.

Interpretations vary from denomination to denomination and person to person even within a denomination and/or church, so to claim a particular interpretation is "man made garbage" is a bridge too far.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
There is because the word Gospel means GOOD NEWS. Jesus massage was good news.
Are you an advocate of the prosperity gospel? Ditch the original sin, just preach that gospel = wealth, empowerment etc? I'm not denying that they may be ancillary to the gospel, on occasions, but on the other hand, they may not be. It all depends. If sin is making you poor and frustrating your prospects, the gospel will improve them. But if sin is not hindering your prosperous life because, e.g. it is inherently immoral and dependent on ill-gotten gains, then the gospel may make you poor (cf. Zacchaeus.) Was the thief on the cross empowered or made wealthy through the gospel? No. So I think you teach a false gospel if you relate it only to advancing yourself in the world.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
And exactly how do you supposedly know that? Mind you, I don't believe in either one, but I'm simply not going to the extreme that you are taking it.

Interpretations vary from denomination to denomination and person to person even within a denomination and/or church, so to claim a particular interpretation is "man made garbage" is a bridge too far.
Have you any evidence that I am incorrect?
Let's be honest the Catholic Church admitted Purgatory was made up about 20-years ago.
Where in the Bible is original sin mentioned?
The Trinity - please explain how that works?
 
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