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Woman, authority and Christianity (only Christians or those with a lot of time spent studying anity)

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Why aren't women permitted by Paul to have authority in churches? Now, I am not talking about whether the Bible has been edited (a theory put forward often with some evidence. See Bart Ehrman if you want to know). I am talking about the big 'Why'. Why not have women as bishops? What is the big plan?

I am looking for positive reasons, not malicious reasons. Malicious reason are easy to come up with. What are the good intentions and why not have women in charge of certain things? If you cannot come up with a good reason, then that is enough. I don't need ideas for bad reasons.
 

socharlie

Active Member
Why aren't women permitted by Paul to have authority in churches? Now, I am not talking about whether the Bible has been edited (a theory put forward often with some evidence. See Bart Ehrman if you want to know). I am talking about the big 'Why'. Why not have women as bishops? What is the big plan?

I am looking for positive reasons, not malicious reasons. Malicious reason are easy to come up with. What are the good intentions and why not have women in charge of certain things? If you cannot come up with a good reason, then that is enough. I don't need ideas for bad reasons.
14"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one" 1 Cor . 2.
Natural- psuchikos - of the soul or mind
Spiritual - pneumatikos - spiritual
Gnostic division of human natures as hylic, psychic and pneumatic is prominent in Paul's letters.
other symbolic terms for psychics - called, women, Jews... for pneumatics - saints, men, Gentiles...
So there is need to recognize spiritual division vs sexual division, e.g., when Paul says women forbidden to teach men it means psychics (who lack spiritual understanding) forbidden to teach pneumatic (spiritual). Psychic and pneumatics can be male or female not related to sexual division. Reference E. Pagels "The Gnostic Paul".
The Gnostic Paul
I think E. Pagels hit the nail...
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Why aren't women permitted by Paul to have authority in churches? Now, I am not talking about whether the Bible has been edited (a theory put forward often with some evidence. See Bart Ehrman if you want to know). I am talking about the big 'Why'. Why not have women as bishops? What is the big plan?

I am looking for positive reasons, not malicious reasons. Malicious reason are easy to come up with. What are the good intentions and why not have women in charge of certain things? If you cannot come up with a good reason, then that is enough. I don't need ideas for bad reasons.
Framework. Ironically mary magdelene is the founder of Christianity. The church starts the moment she walks in the room "he has risen" the veil of death is removed. In saying that she is the founder, is not implying he isn't a something. As the most unusual type of founder she points not to herself but points into death and states false, he is in the room. He is the foundation. He is Most important to the founder Mary. She understands a lot. Even to this day that death into presence he is alive is fundemental in church. Regardless and independent from theology.

Paul when confronted by society is extremely cautious. He places female in the primary locus, the body the heart, and the head or the intellect as secondary male. Ironically that narrative ordering is exactly in alignment with nature. Are we actually intellectual beings that manifested the body or are we body beings that have manifested the intellect? He inverts the genisis story interestingly.

The text is heavy duty and its not written by simply being an auto repair manual. I have a degree in bible as road map or auto repair called theology its nonsense in totality.
 
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Vee

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't know for sure so I'll give a personal theory of mine.
Remember the historical context. Back in those days women's duties were to stay home and take care of the family. Women always depended on men, first their father, then the husband, then if the husband died first, their sons. A woman on those days was not particularly educated, was never independent and was much inferior to men.
Paul was a man of that time. Despite his many qualities, he probably shared the mentality of those days and that's why he referred to women that way. But like I said, that's just my theory.
 

socharlie

Active Member
14"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one" 1 Cor . 2.
Natural- psuchikos - of the soul or mind
Spiritual - pneumatikos - spiritual
Gnostic division of human natures as hylic, psychic and pneumatic is prominent in Paul's letters.
other symbolic terms for psychics - called, women, Jews... for pneumatics - saints, men, Gentiles...
So there is need to recognize spiritual division vs sexual division, e.g., when Paul says women forbidden to teach men it means psychics (who lack spiritual understanding) forbidden to teach pneumatic (spiritual). Psychic and pneumatics can be male or female not related to sexual division. Reference E. Pagels "The Gnostic Paul".
The Gnostic Paul
I think E. Pagels hit the nail...

example:

25"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband." Eph. 5
Only verse 33 speaks about male - female relationship, the rest of it psychic - pneumatic relationship.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
14"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one" 1 Cor . 2.
Natural- psuchikos - of the soul or mind
Spiritual - pneumatikos - spiritual
Gnostic division of human natures as hylic, psychic and pneumatic is prominent in Paul's letters.
other symbolic terms for psychics - called, women, Jews... for pneumatics - saints, men, Gentiles...
So there is need to recognize spiritual division vs sexual division, e.g., when Paul says women forbidden to teach men it means psychics (who lack spiritual understanding) forbidden to teach pneumatic (spiritual). Psychic and pneumatics can be male or female not related to sexual division. Reference E. Pagels "The Gnostic Paul".
The Gnostic Paul
I think E. Pagels hit the nail...
Hmm. I will take a closer look at that. Thanks for the idea.
 
example:

25"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband." Eph. 5
Only verse 33 speaks about male - female relationship, the rest of it psychic - pneumatic relationship.

Thank you.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
Why aren't women permitted by Paul to have authority in churches? Now, I am not talking about whether the Bible has been edited (a theory put forward often with some evidence. See Bart Ehrman if you want to know). I am talking about the big 'Why'. Why not have women as bishops? What is the big plan?

I am looking for positive reasons, not malicious reasons. Malicious reason are easy to come up with. What are the good intentions and why not have women in charge of certain things? If you cannot come up with a good reason, then that is enough. I don't need ideas for bad reasons.
There are two reasons quoted by Paul in 1 Tim 2, and they remain the reasons.

(a) Order. Man is the head of woman (1 Cor 11) and was created first. It is a God-appointed order, and so not to be usurped by man. The spiritual church will observe the order and authority of God. The "churches of God" can have no other practice. 1 Cor 11;16.

(b) Weakness. Woman is inherently weaker than man (cf Eve was deceived, and caused Adam to sin). The innate ability of women to be deceived is higher than men. If you look around you at the churches in which women are in charge, you will find that nearly all are antinomian, i.e. have thrown off the moral law to a great extent (i.e. tolerate sexual immorality). Indeed the only churches where women ever get into positions of authority are churches that have already surrendered to satan. I could cite many churches but especially protestant trinitarian churches. The desire to lord it over men is not a godly attribute in women. Such women are terribly deceived. The higher the authority of the woman in the church the greater her self-deception. In the bible, women are only appointed judges over the reprobate.

Isaiah 3:12 "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths."
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
There are two reasons quoted by Paul in 1 Tim 2, and they remain the reasons.

(a) Order. Man is the head of woman (1 Cor 11) and was created first. It is a God-appointed order, and so not to be usurped by man. The spiritual church will observe the order and authority of God. The "churches of God" can have no other practice. 1 Cor 11;16.

(b) Weakness. Woman is inherently weaker than man (cf Eve was deceived, and caused Adam to sin). The innate ability of women to be deceived is higher than men. If you look around you at the churches in which women are in charge, you will find that nearly all are antinomian, i.e. have thrown off the moral law to a great extent (i.e. tolerate sexual immorality). Indeed the only churches where women ever get into positions of authority are churches that have already surrendered to satan. I could cite many churches but especially protestant trinitarian churches. The desire to lord it over men is not a godly attribute in women. Such women are terribly deceived. The higher the authority of the woman in the church the greater her self-deception. In the bible, women are only appointed judges over the reprobate.

Isaiah 3:12 "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths."
Thanks for that interpretation. 1 Timothy says Adam is not deceived and the woman is, so to me it is hard to support that Eve causes him to make a mistake. In the story Adam blames Eve for his mistake, but Timothy does not seem to put the blame onto Eve. I am not sure that 1 Timothy supports the opinion that Eve causes Adam to sin since Timothy says Adam is not deceived like she is, but I can see that maybe the reason for men leading in the church is related to the story. Its still a little bit hazy to me.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
Thanks for that interpretation. 1 Timothy says Adam is not deceived and the woman is, so to me it is hard to support that Eve causes him to make a mistake. In the story Adam blames Eve for his mistake, but Timothy does not seem to put the blame onto Eve. I am not sure that 1 Timothy supports the opinion that Eve causes Adam to sin since Timothy says Adam is not deceived like she is, but I can see that maybe the reason for men leading in the church is related to the story. Its still a little bit hazy to me.
I did not say that Eve deceived Adam. She provided a pattern of sin which Adam chose to follow. The guilt was his. Women providing a pattern of sin is a cause of men sinning. "No woman no crime" (well not true in many cases but an element of truth where women are allowed to sin).

Consider that in most democracies operating universal suffrage, there is divorce on demand (of women). Jezebel, Athaliah, the women of Moab - quite a few examples in the bible of women in authority substituting ba'al worship for worship of YHWH. So it is today in their churches that they rule over.
 
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Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I did not say that Eve deceived Adam. She provided a pattern of sin which Adam chose to follow. The guilt was his. Women providing a pattern of sin is a cause of men sinning. "No woman no crime" (well not true in many cases but an element of truth where women are allowed to sin).

Consider that in most democracies operating universal suffrage, there is divorce on demand (of women). Jezebel, Athaliah, the women of Moab - quite a few examples in the bible of women in authority substituting ba'al worship for worship of YHWH. So it is today in their churches that they rule over.
To me that does not appear to be a problem, mainly because I do not think many christians today live in the old way. Also if we did then we would not divorce so much, so I think its not due to suffrage but general disinterest in christian labor - not that I dismiss your thought but do not see the corelation.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
To me that does not appear to be a problem, mainly because I do not think many christians today live in the old way. Also if we did then we would not divorce so much, so I think its not due to suffrage but general disinterest in christian labor - not that I dismiss your thought but do not see the corelation.
There is no necessary correlation between rule by women and immorality. Consider Deborah the judge of Israel, but she was a special case, gifted by God to humiliate the faithless Israelites who were cowardly and craven. It is why Sisera was given into the hand of Jael, a woman.

So I can see that a person without faith might say that there was no issue with women ruling churches and secular institutions, even government; but as far as the work of God is concerned, such women in authority are for the most part not only not especially gifted, but in a true church of God, there would be no need for them ever to usurp the place of men. Indeed rule by women of churches gives rise to endless divisiveness. It betokens a very sorry state of affairs when women are found ruling churches, contrary to the mandate of God.

One must realize the enormity of the distinction between the church of God and secular institutions, where rampant immorality prevails by consent of the "majority" i.e. the plebians.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
There is no necessary correlation between rule by women and immorality. Consider Deborah the judge of Israel, but she was a special case, gifted by God to humiliate the faithless Israelites who were cowardly and craven. It is why Sisera was given into the hand of Jael, a woman.

So I can see that a person without faith might say that there was no issue with women ruling churches and secular institutions, even government; but as far as the work of God is concerned, such women in authority are for the most part not only not especially gifted, but in a true church of God, there would be no need for them ever to usurp the place of men. Indeed rule by women of churches gives rise to endless divisiveness. It betokens a very sorry state of affairs when women are found ruling churches, contrary to the mandate of God.

One must realize the enormity of the distinction between the church of God and secular institutions, where rampant immorality prevails by consent of the "majority" i.e. the plebians.
Thanks for your your thoughts. I think you will probably be the last to contribute to the thread. Mine are generally short as I pick unusual topics or limit their scope.
 
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