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Creation and Evolution Compatible...Questions

ecco

Veteran Member
How did we end up with nuclear weapons that could wipe out all life on this planet on the whim of haughty world leaders who might decide to 'shirtfront' each other in a battle of ego and ambition? Should the fate of the world rest in the hands of such men? Who gave them that power? Wasn't it science?
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Is that something to be proud of?

Are you willfully ignoring how many people have been killed "in the name of god", or are you just ignorant of history?

Are you willfully ignoring how many people have died from illnesses and diseases that are now preventable and curable because of science, or are you just ignorant of history?
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Using Google images, what can we discern about the way science classifies taxa? (a species, family, or class)

images


Now lets get specific with an example....the red fox.... (from Wikipedia)

main-qimg-a1c75c571a5e37ab711e725e9a206dfa


We see that a red fox fits into the first three categories as a matter of specific definition. It is obviously in the same "family" as wolves and according to Wiki...." is a lineage of carnivorans that includes domestic dogs, wolves, coyotes, foxes, jackals, dingoes, and many other extant and extinct dog-like mammals. A member of this family is called a canid (/ˈkænɪd/, /ˈkeɪnɪd/).[4]"

However the next classification is "Carnivora", indicating that these are carnivorous. But are all carnivores part of wolf taxa? The graph indicates that science wants to lump all carnivores together. And the next classification puts them in the same group as other mammals. Are all mammals related to red foxes?

It appears to me as if science uses graphs to lead people into thinking things that are not entirely true. They might use these classifications in a science class to students who have no idea that they have been influenced by the subtle power of suggestion.

Why? Look at another graph to illustrate....

carnivore-feline-felis-mustelidae-canine-canis-classification.jpg

This "tree" is one that science planted. Since it lumps all carnivores into one "Order", thus implying 'relationship' on their evolutionary "tree". And since these are all mammals, again there is the suggestion of relationship.

This is why I believe that science is not entirely honest in their classification methods.
They can suggest a "tree" but they grafted on the branches, and put their own "fertilizer" on it IMO.
So your entire argument is... "Science says this... But I don't trust it."

That's literally your entire argument, Deeje?


That depends on what era I was living in. If I lived in Bible times I would have a totally different answer to the one I would give you now. Science is about gaining knowledge and we have come a long way in the last 200 years, but not so much in the millenniums before that. Natural science can tell us a lot about specific species and what family they belong to, which is fine....but they cannot prove that finches 'evolved' from anything but other finches. They cannot back up their "tree" with anything but diagrams and drawings.
You know what this paragraph is missing? An answer to my question.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Not just a powerful intelligence. An intelligence so powerful that it knows all , past, present and future. An level of intelligence we call omniscience. He is also omnipotent - can do anything he wants to do in exactly the way he wants to do it.

What did the magic man in the sky do with his omniscience and omnipotence?

Your interpretation of things has certainly colored your perceptions. Was this your personal appraisal or was your thinking colored from an early age by someone else?
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If you accept Christendom's version of events, you will never come to a knowledge of the truth. The Omniscience of God cannot be questioned, nor can his Omnipotence...but what can be questioned is the way his Omniscience and Omnipotence were interpreted by the churches. His cardinal qualities are used in the execution of his purpose. Most church goers have no idea about what God has done and is doing at this moment to bring his purpose to its fulfillment. Their clergy are in the dark too. Their attitude towards the Genesis account is proof of that. They either sell out to pressure from those in the scientific community who convince them that evolution is a proven fact, or they steadfastly hold to the YEC scenario, which puts dinosaurs on the ark.
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For 99.9999999+% of his eternal existence he did nothing except maybe think about what he was going to do. Then he created Adam & Eve. Then he waited for A&E to disobey him, as he knew they would. Then he kicked them out of the Garden for disobeying him. Do I have that right?

Since the Creator has as much time ahead of him as he has behind him, his actions are very carefully considered before he undertakes anything. His first act of creation was the production of his firstborn son. This son, the Bible describes as "before all things". For unknown eons of time, the Creator educated his son and formed an inseparable bond with him that would last forever. The son was then used in the fabrication of everything else. Spirit beings like themselves were formed way before the earth was prepared for habitation. The angels were said to be very involved spectators of the whole event. For a very long time, they were the only intelligent "sons of God", so no one to challenge their loyalty.

After the creative process had spanned through 5 "days" (periods of undetermined length) God said to his firstborn...
Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”
29 Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you."
(Genesis 1:26-29)

Since each creative "day" ended with God's declaration that "everything was good", he must have been especially pleased with his final efforts as he declared at the end of the 6th day that everything was "very good". (One can only imagine what "very good" means to a perfect, all powerful being.)

See what he assigned humans to do....they were to 'fill the earth with their kind' and "subdue" the land outside of the paradise of Eden where God placed them. They were not going to swing about on hammocks eating fruit all day.....NO! They were designed for work and the assignment required ever more workers. As each generation produced more humans, so the workforce would have increased exponentially and the whole earth in time would have become paradisaic. There would have been no sickness, old age or death to spoil the idyllic life God had planned for them.

In making the humans alone 'in his image and likeness' he endowed them with something that animals do not have......free will. But to be truly "free" God had to give them choices. The only way he could warn them not to misuse their freedom was to impose a very severe penalty and hope that they would choose wisely. But free will was about to be tested.....when a spirit son stepped out of place, by abusing his free will.....it didn't take much for the humans to cave in.....they failed the test. It would require more than words to get the message across.

Right then and there God announced a plan of action that would settle the issue of his Sovereignty, the misuse of free will, and rebellion in the ranks of his earthly children and his spirit sons as well. He allowed the rebel to rule the world while he stepped back, and humans would see the hopeless outcome that this situation would produce. We are living in it. Its a powerful lesson, the results of which will shape our future.

If you read on in Genesis, you will see that the 7th day does not conclude with any declaration at all, and from other scriptures in the Bible there is an indication that it is actually still continuing. This final "day" (of undetermined length) was put in place so that all contingencies relating to the use of free will in his entire 'family' of intelligent creatures could be played out and sorted before God declares the day ended, to his satisfaction. The final 1,000 years of the 7th day will see the rule of God's Kingdom in the hands of his Son, bringing everything to fruition. (Isaiah 55:11) Only then will God continue on with the rest of forever. He has all the time in the world to implement his masterplan.

Your version of God makes him out to be a mindless moron...I assure you he is not the one who fits that description.
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It was not a foregone conclusion 150 years ago. It is now established fact. You refuse to believe it because it flies in the face of your ingrained religious beliefs.

No, I refuse to believe what science cannot prove...that at best makes me a skeptic.

I have stated that they are separate fields of study. That doesn't mean they are not connected. You really have to try harder to get your facts straight.

You are not the first or the last person to infer that abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution. A lot of the evolutionists here have told me that. I think its pretty funny because if a powerful Creator confirms his existence in the future, there are going to be a lot of people with egg on their face....
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....and nowhere to go.

It has been explained to you, repeatedly, that science is not in the business of "proof". It is in the business of accumulating evidence.

Yet your indoctrination tells you that one way to counter ToE is to say "it's unprovable".

It has been explained to me? Yes it has...."science is not in the business of "proof"....I understand that....no proof means no facts. So you have what I have...an unprovable belief system. I can admit that...you don't seen to be able to. The "mountains of overwhelming evidence" upon closer examination, really only amount to a hill of beans IMO.

Your "belief system" is based on the knowledge that people had 2-3 thousand years. Your "belief system" prevents you from accepting any science that that contradicts this ancient "knowledge".

I'm afraid it is the theory of evolution itself that convinced me. I used to be an evolutionist once....but then I saw too many holes and realized that it was all smoke and mirrors. They actually admitted to having no proof for any of their assumptions. The more I looked, the bigger the holes became. I had nowhere else to go but back to God, but I didn't go back to church. The more I studied the Bible, the more sense it made.

My beliefs about science and religion are based on the accumulated knowledge of mankind, not on what was believed thousands of years ago.

The accumulated knowledge of mankind....what is that exactly? Its not accumulated truth apparently.

And yet life expectancy is greater than at any time in the history of mankind.

That's not because of religion or you god. That's a result of science.

I wasn't talking about life expectancy.....I was talking about the major causes of death in the western world today.
Science has assisted agriculture in the mass production of food, leading to epidemics of obesity, cancer and heart disease. Dead foods pack the shelves of supermarkets providing empty calories and little nutrition. Everything is loaded with sugar and the medical system is laughing all the way to the bank. No one is making the fast food or convenience food industries accountable because ill health is big business.

Are you willfully ignoring how many people have been killed "in the name of god", or are you just ignorant of history?

Oh please....how many are killed in the name of politics and greedy grabs for resources?
confused0059.gif
How many perished in the dropping of just 2 atomic bombs unleashed on Japan in WW2...was that OK? How many people have died in the Middle East protecting oil reserves but not soldiers? How many are being killed as we speak, in political conflicts involving corrupt politics around the world?

Are you willfully ignoring how many people have died from illnesses and diseases that are now preventable and curable because of science, or are you just ignorant of history?

For all the diseases that are "curable and preventable" there are a multitude of other diseases taking their place.
AIDS is still killing thousands, bacterial infections once treatable with antibiotics have now adapted to become antibiotic resistant. How many strains of flu are taking people out every winter? Flu vaccinations don't seem to be working.

No one in the medical system seems to be able to cure the main diseases that are killing hundreds of thousands of people every year....they are constantly asking for money for this endless research into cancer and heart disease that is so expensive, but not very productive. Do we know how all that money is spent? Whose pockets is it going into? If science is so clever, why are we all still suffering the most awful deaths? They can put men into space but we can't prevent suffering for the terminally ill and those with chronic conditions? Where is science when you need it most? :shrug:
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
Um, no. Evidence are facts that indicate the validity of a given conclusion, they never "prove it" outright.
Oops, i mixed it up..
i meant proof is a collection of evidences :)
Again, you're confusing proof and evidence. By definition, you only need "one proof" to demonstrate the truth of a claim, but the more evidence you have of a claim the greater the likelihood of that claim being true. Proofs aren't used to strengthen evidence (although a proof can be used as evidence, in a way).
In order to claim something as evidence, you must prove it is true.
Evidence is not a fact... it is a claim.

for example, i can tell you that there is an evidence that the earth is flat. (there are many btw)
On the other hand, in order to prove that the earth is flat, you will need to collect a bunch of evidence and prove them to be true in a way that indicates the earth is really flat.

the more evidence you present, the stronger your proof

evidence: many people say they saw jesus after he died.
proof: there is none.
thus: claim is not validated and cannot be declared as proven.

No, THERE is a Hugh.
Lol... indeed a hugh actor.
Again, you're very close to being spot on here, but not quite. Replace the "proof" in the last sentence for "evidence" and you're correct.
Correct :) i totally mixed it up.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Oops, i mixed it up..
i meant proof is a collection of evidences
That's still wrong. Proof is a single fact or conclusion that demonstrates the truth of a given proposition.

In order to claim something as evidence, you must prove it is true.
Evidence is not a fact... it is a claim.
Now you're just getting confused. Evidence is a fact presented as indicating the truth of a given conclusion - a fact, by its nature, is already observed as being true - it's the conclusion drawn from the fact which may not be - hence evidence, not proof.

for example, i can tell you that there is an evidence that the earth is flat. (there are many btw)
On the other hand, in order to prove that the earth is flat, you will need to collect a bunch of evidence and prove them to be true in a way that indicates the earth is really flat.
See above. No amount of evidence counts as "proof" because evidence always leaves room for doubt and interpretation. You could have a thousand pieces of evidence and it still doesn't "prove" a conclusion, it just makes it more likely to be true - to prove the conclusion, you need PROOF, not evidence.

the more evidence you present, the stronger your proof
False. Proof is conclusive in and of itself, there is no stronger or weaker proof except in purely colloquial speech.

evidence: many people say they saw jesus after he died.
proof: there is none.
thus: claim is not validated and cannot be declared as proven.
This is actually accurate.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Not just a powerful intelligence. An intelligence so powerful that it knows all , past, present and future. An level of intelligence we call omniscience. He is also omnipotent - can do anything he wants to do in exactly the way he wants to do it.

Your interpretation of things has certainly colored your perceptions. ...
If you accept Christendom's version of events, you will never come to a knowledge of the truth.

Let's forget about my interpretations and about "Christendom" for the moment. Let's discuss your version and the source of your knowledge.

Do you believe god is omniscient?
Do you believe god is omnipotent?


What did the magic man in the sky do with his omniscience and omnipotence?

For 99.9999999+% of his eternal existence he did nothing except maybe think about what he was going to do. Then he created Adam & Eve. Then he waited for A&E to disobey him, as he knew they would. Then he kicked them out of the Garden for disobeying him. Do I have that right?

... His first act of creation was the production of his firstborn son. This son, the Bible describes as "before all things".

Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.

The NT describes jesus as the firstborn. You state jesus was created before Adam & Eve. OK. Let's, for the sake of discussion, start with that.

Then...
28 Further, God blessed them,... “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you." ... God's declaration that "everything was good"...

See what he assigned humans to do....they were to 'fill the earth with their kind' and "subdue" the land outside of the paradise of Eden where God placed them. ... As each generation produced more humans, ... the whole earth in time would have become paradisaic. ...

...free will. But to be truly "free" God had to give them choices.

by abusing his free will.....it didn't take much for the humans to cave in.....they failed the test. It would require more than words to get the message across.

There are two possibilities:
  1. God is omniscient. He knew beforehand which choice A&E would make.
  2. God is not omniscient.
Which, in your belief, is it?


Your version of God makes him out to be a mindless moron...I assure you he is not the one who fits that description.
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Not my version. Your version based on what you have written and the biblical quotes you have presented.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Let's forget about my interpretations and about "Christendom" for the moment. Let's discuss your version and the source of your knowledge.

Oh why not....? :D

Do you believe god is omniscient?

Yes

Do you believe god is omnipotent?

Yes

The NT describes jesus as the firstborn. You state jesus was created before Adam & Eve. OK. Let's, for the sake of discussion, start with that.

OK :)

Then...

There are two possibilities:
  1. God is omniscient. He knew beforehand which choice A&E would make.
  2. God is not omniscient.
Which, in your belief, is it?
It isn't either/or.....it just requires a little more than a cursory knowledge of scripture.

It is my belief that God's omniscience is something he can control. It was illustrated to me this way....if you were a locksmith and you had a key that could unlock every lock in existence, would you have to unlock every lock just because you could?

I believe that God can know whatever he chooses to know and that he can allow all humans to make their own choices of their own free will...and then he respond accordingly. If you read the Bible, God did not "act" much at all after his creative works were finished....but he did "react" to a lot of what humans were doing. He reacted to what the devil was doing as well. He was responding to the choices humans made. That is why he gave them free will in the first place, but they had to learn to drive it responsibly. How many humans have actually done that successfully, do you think?

Not my version. Your version based on what you have written and the biblical quotes you have presented.

Not even close. You misinterpreted everything I said.....deliberately? Or do you really have only a very superficial knowledge about the points you raised? You want to talk scripture? More than happy. ;)
 

ecco

Veteran Member
No, I refuse to believe what science cannot prove...that at best makes me a skeptic.
Continue using the word "prove"; Continue showing your ignorance of science.


You are not the first or the last person to infer that abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution.
Where did I infer that? By saying they are two related fields of study?


It has been explained to me? Yes it has...."science is not in the business of "proof"....I understand that...
By your writings it is clear that you don't.

I used to be an evolutionist once
Was that before you became a JW?


The accumulated knowledge of mankind....what is that exactly?
It's sad you don't understand common English.

I wasn't talking about life expectancy.....I was talking about the major causes of death in the western world today.
In the past most people did not die of heart disease. They didn't live long enough to get heart disease. Ditto cancer, diabetes, etc.

Which is better, dying of cancer at 50 or dying from a flea bite at 10?

Oh please....how many are killed in the name of politics and greedy grabs for resources?
confused0059.gif
How many perished in the dropping of just 2 atomic bombs unleashed on Japan in WW2...was that OK? How many people have died in the Middle East protecting oil reserves but not soldiers? How many are being killed as we speak, in political conflicts involving corrupt politics around the world?
I see you did not comment on the number of people who died "in the name of god".

For all the diseases that are "curable and preventable" there are a multitude of other diseases taking their place.
AIDS is still killing thousands
No one in the medical system seems to be able to cure the main diseases that are killing hundreds of thousands of people every year....they are constantly asking for money for this endless research into cancer and heart disease that is so expensive, but not very productive. Do we know how all that money is spent? Whose pockets is it going into?


The death rate from AIDS has dropped dramatically due to research and medicines.
Very few die or get disabled by Polio.
People who get cancer have longer life expectancies than 50 years ago. Immunotherapies are just beginning to be shown to be effective.
Heart implants and pacemakers and angioplasty and stents save people's lives.

If science is so clever, why are we all still suffering the most awful deaths? They can put men into space but we can't prevent suffering for the terminally ill and those with chronic conditions? Where is science when you need it most? :shrug:

You really are being ridiculous. You ignore all the progress that science has made and gripe because it hasn't solved everything yet.

Re: prevent suffering for the terminally ill

It is religious people who prevent people from choosing painless death over prolonged suffering.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/euthanasia/
The Bible does not condone taking someone’s life even when the person is facing an imminent and unavoidable death. The example of King Saul of Israel supports this. When he was mortally wounded in battle, he asked his attendant to help end his life. (1 Samuel 31:3, 4) Saul’s attendant refused. However, another man later falsely claimed to have fulfilled Saul’s wish. This man was condemned as bloodguilty by David—a person who reflected God’s thinking on the matter.—2 Samuel 1:6-16.​
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Do you believe god is omniscient?
Do you believe god is omnipotent?

There are two possibilities:
  1. God is omniscient. He knew beforehand which choice A&E would make.
  2. God is not omniscient.
Which, in your belief, is it?

It is my belief that God's omniscience is something he can control. It was illustrated to me this way....if you were a locksmith and you had a key that could unlock every lock in existence, would you have to unlock every lock just because you could?
Poor analogy. Apparently, when this illustration was given to you, you just blindly accepted it.

I believe that God can know whatever he chooses to know and that he can allow all humans to make their own choices of their own free will...and then he respond accordingly.

If god turned off his omniscience when creating A&E, he chose to be willfully ignorant.


ETA: Remember, he had almost all of eternity to ponder his creation before he created A&E.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
My sentiments exactly......except that I don't run away from the challenge.
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When some religion or denomination is a source of ignorance and dishonesty, then there really is not much one can do with that if the congregants blindly follow them and shut off other sources.

I was in that same camp but came to realize the sheer ignorance and dishonesty that I had been brought up to believe, so I left that church in my early 20's. No true church tells its congregation not to look for objectivity, which is what science really is.

Christianity should be enlightening, not darkening. It should seek the Truth-- not put blinders on its people. Fortunately, many churches do encourage people to study and try to be objective-- the JW's simply aren't one of them. This is why they dish out their propaganda and don't want its congregants to even check out other churches or even go to a funeral service at another church. It's their "my way or the highway" approach that is just so utterly pathetic, especially because religion is based on faith and belief, not objectively-derived evidence. It wants its congregants to act like lemmings, not adult humans capable of exploring and thinking for themselves. Many are nice people, no doubt, as two sets of them have been my neighbors for many years now, and one set still remains.

Science and the basic ToE offer no problem for a church that is truly being responsible to its congregants by encouraging them to study and try and be objective, and hopefully some day you'll eventually seek to find one that suits your liking. IOW, "Seek and ye shall find, ..."-- not "Blindly follow us and don't look anywhere else".
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Are you willfully ignoring how many people have been killed "in the name of god", or are you just ignorant of history?

Are you willfully ignoring how many people have died from illnesses and diseases that are now preventable and curable because of science, or are you just ignorant of history?
Many wars are fought over one belief or another.

Would you prefer they get fought over beliefs in "global warming" or "democracy"?

Belief in God or global warming hardly precludes someone from making an advance in medicine.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
Using Google images, what can we discern about the way science classifies taxa? (a species, family, or class)


Linnaean taxonomy has been replaced by cladistics almost everywhere in biology. This is the modern way of organizing life:

1303_1832_714-marsupials-southern-continents.jpg


We see that a red fox fits into the first three categories as a matter of specific definition. It is obviously in the same "family" as wolves and according to Wiki...." is a lineage of carnivorans that includes domestic dogs, wolves, coyotes, foxes, jackals, dingoes, and many other extant and extinct dog-like mammals. A member of this family is called a canid (/ˈkænɪd/, /ˈkeɪnɪd/).[4]"

However the next classification is "Carnivora", indicating that these are carnivorous. But are all carnivores part of wolf taxa? The graph indicates that science wants to lump all carnivores together. And the next classification puts them in the same group as other mammals. Are all mammals related to red foxes?

False. It wants to lump all carinvorans together, not all carnivores. Those are two different things. Carnivora is a clade that is united by shared physical features, not by their diet.

Carnivora

This "tree" is one that science planted. Since it lumps all carnivores into one "Order", thus implying 'relationship' on their evolutionary "tree". And since these are all mammals, again there is the suggestion of relationship.

Again, modern science uses cladistics. The tree is based on shared derived features (i.e. synapomorphies) which is an objective measure. There is an objective phylogenetic signal when you organize life by the features they share. Interestingly enough, you don't get a phylogenetic signal when you try to organize things like cars by the features they share.

This is why I believe that science is not entirely honest in their classification methods.

You aren't being honest about how science organizes species.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Many wars are fought over one belief or another.

Would you prefer they get fought over beliefs in "global warming" or "democracy"?

Belief in God or global warming hardly precludes someone from making an advance in medicine.
Belief in God does not stop someone from accept the findings of science. There are countless examples of Christians that accept the fact that life is the product of evolution. If one denies evolution and tries to work in the field of medicine it is the same as entering a race with one foot in a bucket. The person may still be able to "run", he will just not run as far or as fast as others.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
No, I refuse to believe what science cannot prove...that at best makes me a skeptic.

You don't even understand the science, so your skepticism is unwarranted. You don't even understand that species are grouped by shared derived features called synapomorphies.

You are not the first or the last person to infer that abiogenesis has nothing to do with evolution.

Then tell us what in the theory of evolution would need to be changed if the very first simple replicator was created by some intelligent being, and then all of life we see now evolved through natural process from that simple replicator? What would need to change in the theory?

I understand that....no proof means no facts. So you have what I have...an unprovable belief system. I can admit that...you don't seen to be able to. The "mountains of overwhelming evidence" upon closer examination, really only amount to a hill of beans IMO.

Are there any scientific theories you do accept?

I'm afraid it is the theory of evolution itself that convinced me. I used to be an evolutionist once....but then I saw too many holes and realized that it was all smoke and mirrors. They actually admitted to having no proof for any of their assumptions. The more I looked, the bigger the holes became. I had nowhere else to go but back to God, but I didn't go back to church. The more I studied the Bible, the more sense it made.

How could you have been an "evolutionist" and not understand how species are organized? It would be like someone saying that they used to be a Christian, and then they talk about how Jesus was the son of Vishnu and was the 5th child of his earthly family. Wouldn't you tend to think that they were never a Christian?

When you continually get the most basic science wrong all you do is invalidate your own argument.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Continue using the word "prove"; Continue showing your ignorance of science.

It isn't ignorance to reject supposition. It isn't ignorance to refuse to be persuaded by suggestion. This is all science has for evidence of macro-evolution. There are no "facts" so there can be no proof. Is that difficult to understand? :shrug:

The "everyone else believes it except you ignorant idiots" catchphrase doesn't work on me. I like to evaluate things for myself. I ask all the hard questions and if I see a "might have" or a "could have" mentioned in an article on evolution, I know that they are speculating, not presenting real evidence. Most people don't even notice.

By your writings it is clear that you don't.

Oh but I do....I just don't buy it. It is sold to gullible people who want God to go away. For them, he did. For me, he didn't.

Was that before you became a JW?

Yes. From High School to my twenties I tried to study evolution and understand how incredible complexities in living organisms that demonstrate intelligent planning, could possibly be the result of random chance. Red flags went up everywhere, but going back to a YEC scenario was just as ridiculous. So I ditched both and just studied the Bible. I went into deep study for two years before I decided that what JW's teach is the most reasonable middle ground. I didn't have to give up science as far as it can provide proof for its conclusions, and I didn't have to lose God or the Bible to accept that there was a grand Creator with a grand purpose to it all.

It's sad you don't understand common English.

Common English, like any other language requires definitions....you didn't provide one. What "accumulated knowledge" did you mean? Did you mean actual knowledge that has substantiation?....or did you mean a current popular 'belief' that seems to be accepted by a lot of people, even though real substantive evidence is not available? Is implied substantiation a good substitute?

Knowledge is power, as they say, but knowledge based on supposition is not knowledge at all. It masquerades as knowledge. Just because it is well marketed, doesn't mean that a product is not defective. I expect that a recall is in order.
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In the past most people did not die of heart disease. They didn't live long enough to get heart disease. Ditto cancer, diabetes, etc.

Which is better, dying of cancer at 50 or dying from a flea bite at 10?

That would depend upon which country a person was born into. I would rather die at 10 from a flea bite rather than live a miserable existence in poverty and squalor for 50 years and then die an agonizing death with no pain relief. This is the reality of the world's poor. Western society wants to overlook the fact that medicine is a commodity designed to make its producers rich. Even in wealthy nations, the poor do not receive health care because they can't pay for it.
Money drives everything. Gotta love capitalism.
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I see you did not comment on the number of people who died "in the name of god".

You didn't comment on the greater number killed in the name of political agendas. At least the numbers killed in Bible times were in hand to hand combat...led by their own kings. Bit of a different story today eh? You can just fly a plane over a city and drop a few bombs and kill thousands in one go. The 'King' is nowhere to be seen....he just signs the death warrants for all the misguided souls who join his military forces. What have they sacrificed their lives or their health for exactly?

The death rate from AIDS has dropped dramatically due to research and medicines.
Very few die or get disabled by Polio.
People who get cancer have longer life expectancies than 50 years ago. Immunotherapies are just beginning to be shown to be effective.
Heart implants and pacemakers and angioplasty and stents save people's lives.

To be sure there have been some advances in many areas of medicine, but then we would expect that as science grew in knowledge, would we not? What we don't expect in this day and age is to see people suffer needlessly until they take their dying breath. Tens of thousands every year are robbed of their final months by chemical poisoning they call chemotherapy. It has something like a 2% success rate, and yet it makes drug companies billions of dollars and costs people their quality of life in what little time they had left.
Cures for cancer are known, but they aren't allowed into the hands of people who need them. No money in cures.
Goldman Sachs asks in biotech research report: 'Is curing patients a sustainable business model?'

There are many ways to prevent suffering for a terminally ill patient. They can put people in a coma for weeks in certain circumstances, but not for the dying.....would it not be more humane to put them to sleep so that they can pass peacefully without pain?

Re: prevent suffering for the terminally ill

It is religious people who prevent people from choosing painless death over prolonged suffering.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/euthanasia/
The Bible does not condone taking someone’s life even when the person is facing an imminent and unavoidable death. The example of King Saul of Israel supports this. When he was mortally wounded in battle, he asked his attendant to help end his life. (1 Samuel 31:3, 4) Saul’s attendant refused. However, another man later falsely claimed to have fulfilled Saul’s wish. This man was condemned as bloodguilty by David—a person who reflected God’s thinking on the matter.—2 Samuel 1:6-16.

I wasn't talking about active euthanasia. Murder in any setting is wrong and active euthanasia is open to exploitation.
I was talking about medically available means to alleviate unnecessary suffering. We have no qualms about passive euthanasia however. That is the withdrawal of all life support or artificial means to keep a patient living if the patient wishes to end their suffering. There is no law of God or man that prevents a person from doing that.

If god turned off his omniscience when creating A&E, he chose to be willfully ignorant.

He did not turn off anything, but left the humans to make their own choices, then he responded to those choices. He did not interfere with their choices and he does not interfere with ours. He merely states consequences for our actions that are in opposition to his will. We decide to obey....or not.

Free will meant making even the wrong choices, but there was never a time when their choices were not dealt with according to God's purpose. Everything humans do is leading somewhere. Everything is a life lesson. We often learn more from our mistakes than by people telling us not to do something. The Creator knows this.

When God created intelligent beings who could reflect his moral qualities, he chose to give them the ability to plan their actions like he does. Man alone has a concept of past present and future and he has the unique faculty of conscience. He also has something that no animals has...the ability to plan the future according to perceived outcomes. We have 'imagination' and can visualize potential outcomes and can avoid what could be harmful, or go ahead with what may be beneficial. Our moral capacity helps with those decisions.

ETA: Remember, he had almost all of eternity to ponder his creation before he created A&E.

Yes indeed. But assuming that God made mistakes is to sell him short. He knew exactly from the beginning, how it will end. (Isaiah 46:10) You see, at the end of the 7th "day", everything that God purposed in the beginning will be brought to its successful completion. He will have a race of perfect humans living forever on this planet, obediently and responsibly using their free will to the benefit of others, not just themselves. Having eliminated those who chose an opposite course, there will be no dissenters....no rebels...no one to spoil what he started all those millions of years ago. He will be able to declare it "very good", just as he did with the other days. He cannot fail....but humans can by individually misusing their free will. Our lives and choices are not pre-determined, but God's purpose is.

The last book in the Bible is the culmination of all human history...the finale of this object lesson and time of testing for one's suitability as a citizen of God's Kingdom, (which will become the only ruling authority on earth) will see its completion.

A mass eviction is going to take place because bad tenants do not get to enjoy the renovations that God will have to make to this earth due to their bad tenancy. He appeals to all to come and enjoy what he is offering, but ultimately the majority will have chosen the "broad and spacious road" that leads to death. The "few" who have chosen the more difficult path to life, will reap the everlasting rewards. (Matthew 7:13-14)

I believe that this is the Bible's message. Believe it or not...take it or leave it.
God's purpose will go ahead with us or without us. We all have the same choices.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
When some religion or denomination is a source of ignorance and dishonesty, then there really is not much one can do with that if the congregants blindly follow them and shut off other sources.

I am not shut off from other sources I can assure you. Other sources are actually my favorite way to show evolution up for what it really is. I love it when scientists shoot themselves in the foot.
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I see kids 'blindly following' what is taught in school, shut off from other sources by ridicule. They take their indoctrination right into University with them.

I was in that same camp but came to realize the sheer ignorance and dishonesty that I had been brought up to believe, so I left that church in my early 20's. No true church tells its congregation not to look for objectivity, which is what science really is.

Funny but that was my experience too....except I didn't throw the baby out with the filthy bathwater and then wander around aimlessly wondering what to believe.
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I wanted answers and I didn't rest until I found them.
There is no objectivity in science...it is an illusion.

Christianity should be enlightening, not darkening.

Real Christianity is.....it gives hope for an amazing future that doesn't depend on some idea that all good people must go to heaven. God never put humans in heaven.....he designed them for everlasting life on earth.

There is no heaven or hell.....there is only life or death.

It should seek the Truth-- not put blinders on its people.

I agree. Putting blinders on people is never a good thing. But you don't seem to see the blinders put on those who are talked into believing in macro-evolution at a very early age, when it cannot be proven. It is science's 'belief system'. When you can't prove something, it becomes a belief. How can you not see this? Protestations about 'ignorance' are empty when your own theory is based on beliefs, not backed up by facts.

Fortunately, many churches do encourage people to study and try to be objective-- the JW's simply aren't one of them.

I have studied very extensively and I come from a church background too....so are you telling me I can't be objective? I just arrived at a different conclusion to you. I am settled and confident that what I believe is true, just as you may be....or are you? I never get the impression from you that you have settled anything in your mind about the existence and role of the Creator. Limbo is not a great place to be when you are staring down the barrel of mortality. I am staring down the same barrel but I know what comes next and I eagerly anticipate it. What are you eagerly anticipating? According to Jesus, when the crunch comes it will be a clear division between "sheep" and "goats".....there are no undecided people sitting on a fence.....there is no fence. (Matthew 12:30; James 1:5-8)

This is why they dish out their propaganda and don't want its congregants to even check out other churches or even go to a funeral service at another church. It's their "my way or the highway" approach that is just so utterly pathetic, especially because religion is based on faith and belief, not objectively-derived evidence.

Funny, but I see exactly the same thing among science students in college. There is no "objectively-derived evidence" for evolution. Science has its own brand of propaganda.....you just can't see it.

It wants its congregants to act like lemmings, not adult humans capable of exploring and thinking for themselves.

Again, I see the same thing among the young ones in university science courses, fully indoctrinated from school never to question whether the evidence for evolution is only really proof of adaptation. Anything past adaptation is conjecture, not based on facts.....it is only based on what the scientists are suggesting from their evidence. The bias in interpreting their evidence is palpable.

Many are nice people, no doubt, as two sets of them have been my neighbors for many years now, and one set still remains.

LOL....and your neighbors represent our whole brotherhood I suppose? :rolleyes:
One family apostatized and now that tarnishes the whole lot? Really?

According to Wiki..."In his book Mein Kampf and in public speeches prior to and in the early years of his rule, he [Hitler] affirmed a belief in Christianity.[8][9] Hitler and the Nazi party promoted "Positive Christianity"[10]"

Hitler was confirmed in the Catholic Church, so do we assume that all Catholics are like Hitler just because he was a bad example? All barrels will have some bad apples, but that is why we kick them out.....they can spread their 'badness' to others.

1 Cor 5:6-7..."Do you not know that a little leaven ferments the whole lump? 7 Clear away the old leaven, that you may be a new lump"

Science and the basic ToE offer no problem for a church that is truly being responsible to its congregants by encouraging them to study and try and be objective, and hopefully some day you'll eventually seek to find one that suits your liking. IOW, "Seek and ye shall find, ..."-- not "Blindly follow us and don't look anywhere else".

Oh dear....what I see here is a hope that your indoctrination will win out over mine.
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"Seek and ye shall find" works both ways...we usually find what we are looking for.

A "responsible church" is one that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ...it doesn't cave in to popular opinion in order to save face and maintain friendship with the world. (James 4:4)

At Genesis 2:23-24, ....After God brought the newly created woman to Adam....
"Then the man said:
“This is at last bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh.
This one will be called Woman,
Because from man she was taken.”

24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh."


Jesus alluded to these words in Matthew 19:4-5. So if Jesus said that God created the first humans, then I will believe him over what godless humans have to say. OK?
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Linnaean taxonomy has been replaced by cladistics almost everywhere in biology. This is the modern way of organizing life:

So it must be accurate because it is modern?
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What is a clade? Let's see.....

According to Wiki.....
"Cladistics (from Greek κλάδος, klados, i.e., "branch") is an approach to biological classification in which organisms are categorized in groups ("clades") based on the most recent common ancestor.

"There are three basic assumptions in cladistics:

  • Any group of organisms are related by descent from a common ancestor.
  • There is a bifurcating pattern of cladogenesis.
  • Change in characteristics occurs in lineages over time."
Quoted from Introduction to Cladistics
Berkeley edu.

Hmmmm...there's that word again... "assumptions"....3 of them, which of course, are not facts.

"Descent from a common ancestor" is an assumption based on an the existence of an evolutionary chain...the links of which are entirely missing from the fossil record. If there were facts, there would be no need of assumptions. The truth is hidden in plain sight.
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This same article on "cladistics" from Berkeley begins with an interesting admission.....

"After you've read through the pages on the implications and methodologies, you will be armed in the ways of cladistics. Therefore, if you dare, you can take a journey into the real world of cladistics. Should you choose to venture on this journey, pray you are well-armed with good luck and wits!"

If this is a "journey" into the truth, why would someone need to be "armed with good luck and wits"?


It goes on to say...."Cladistics is a particular method of hypothesizing relationships among organisms. Like other methods, it has its own set of assumptions, procedures, and limitations. Cladistics is now accepted as the best method available for phylogenetic analysis, for it provides an explicit and testable hypothesis of organismal relationships.


The basic idea behind cladistics is that members of a group share a common evolutionary history, and are "closely related," more so to members of the same group than to other organisms. These groups are recognized by sharing unique features which were not present in distant ancestors. These shared derived characteristics are called synapomorphies."


Now your average reader would see what facts in this introduction? I see mention of "good luck and wits" and being "armed", which indicates that an assault might be anticipated?
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"It has its own set of assumptions, procedures and limitations" but its "now accepted as the best method available." :shrug:

What comes next made me realize why you need to be "armed" in discussing this subject....

"Note that it is not enough for organisms to share characteristics, in fact two organisms may share a great many characteristics and not be considered members of the same group. For example, consider a jellyfish, starfish, and a human; which two are most closely related? The jellyfish and starfish both live in the water, have radial symmetry, and are invertebrates, so you might suppose that they belong together in a group. This would not reflect evolutionary relationships, however, since the starfish and human are actually more closely related. It is not just the presence of shared characteristics which is important, but the presence of shared derived characteristics. In the example above, all three characteristics are believed to have been present in the common ancestor of all animals, and so are trivial for determining relationships, since all three organisms in question belong to the group "animals." While humans are different from the other two organisms, they differ only in characteristics which arose newly in an ancestor which is not shared with the other two. As you shall see on the next page, chosing the right characters is one of the most important steps in a cladistic analysis."


All I can say is.....you've got to be kidding!
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Of course we all know that humans are related to jellyfish.

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Here is a family pic of some of my relative swimming off the Bahamas.....
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
If god turned off his omniscience when creating A&E, he chose to be willfully ignorant.

You make this out to be a bad thing! Why wouldn't a loving Father show respect and honor to His sentient creatures, both angelic and human, by granting them freedom and privacy in their thoughts? He wasn't the Nazi police!

He only gave A&E three laws to follow, and only one was prohibitive.
 
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