christians - judging

Aqualung said:

This is EXACTLY what I said you did!! You made a judgement, that her actions were sins, based on your judgements of the scriptures!

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Not at all. You aren't reading.

She has listed scripture to tell people they are sinning, and that they are abominations, and that they cannot be Christians. The same scriptures have said that her actions are sinful. Do I believe she has sinned by committing these actions? I do not know. That is between her and God.

Personally, I believe that much changed with the new testament. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that who shall evere believe in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

We all have sin. Whether it's lieing, stealing, sex, anger, whatever, we all sin. I don't believe that any one sin is greater than another. I don't think there are sins that God looks the other direction for. What I do believe, is that we all, can be saved. We all sin. We'll always sin. But we all, can be forgiven.

I guess it really comes down to what the individual's definition of judging is. Take for example, a drug addict. I can look at someone who is addicted to drugs. I can feel sorrow for them. I can see problems in their lives as a result of the drug use. Whether it be losing a job, losing a family, being abusive to others. Or even the physical toll it takes on them. I can feel sorrow for them, and those around them. I can also pray that God may touch them, and help them through this problem.

Is that a judgement? I do not believe it is. I feel that is sympathy. Now, if I were to say, "That person is evil and going to hell." Is that a judgement? In my book, yes. And to be honest, I don't even know of any scripture that says drug use is bad. A have no idea if that is a sin or not. But I can see problems that it causes, and hope and pray for better times. But that does not mean I have judged the person due to their behavior.

Is that a judgement? I do not believe it is. I feel that is sympathy. Now, if I were to say, "That person is evil and going to hell."

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That's because you judged the action, not the person.

Aqualung said:

To the illustration with the car: Maybe this is how you act when you judge people, but it is in no way how I act when I judge an action.

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Actually, I do my best not to judge people. So please don't make allegations that aren't there.



Now, as to your comment about judging an action. Since this whole debate was a spin off of the whole "homosexual" debates. I will say this. You have said many times that you can hate the sin of homosexuality, but not hate the sinner.

Now, the one big difference I would like to point out is that homosexuality is something that the person cannot change. It is just as much a part of that person as the color of their skin. That's why many people have a problem with the comment, "I am judging the act of homosexuality, not the homosexual." Because for those of us who have lived this life, we see it as being one and the same.

Would you judge a black person due to the color of the skin? Would you judge a man for being a man? A woman for being a woman? If a woman cannot conceive, would you judge her because her body has failed her? If not, then why would you judge a person for something they too, have no control over?

Now, I have heard the argument many times that it's ok to be a homosexual, just don't have homosexual sex. Well, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with that statement. I do not believe that God would make me the way I am, give me the capacity to love another man, and then tell me not to act upon that love. My God is not that cruel.

Those who believe this way have no problem with a heterosexual couple who cannot conceive, or a heterosexual couple who does not want to conceive. Technically, since many believe the purpose of sex is to reproduce, then that lifestyle would be every bit a sin as that of an active homosexual couple.

I do not see it that way. I believe we are the way God intended us.

So, if you wanted to say that you hate alcoholism, or drug dependency, or rape, or anything of the kind. But that you love the alcoholic, the drug addict, or the rapist, I have no problem with that. I do not feel you are being judgemental at all. And I would say you are doing exactly what Jesus taught us.

But when it comes to homosexuality, I believe that's a whole nother ball game. I cannot change who I am, anymore than a black person can change their color.

Aqualung said:

That's because you judged the action, not the person.

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And where did I say that was wrong?

pdoel said:

And where did I say that was wrong?

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You continually said I was judging people when I was just judging actions.

pdoel said:

I NEVER said it's ok to judge acts

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There.

Aqualung said:

There.

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Ha ha. You simply showed where I said I never said it was ok to judge an act. But where did I say it was not ok to judge an act?



Wanna try again?

Aqualung said:

You continually said I was judging people when I was just judging actions.

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Well, I assume you read my post above about the difference between saying you judge homosexuality, and saying you judge a drug addict.

But, for another example, how about we take a look at Michel's sexism debate.

You clearly said he is a sexist. No question there. Now, you aren't judging an act. In fact, later in the debate, you said you are not saying it's wrong to be a sexist. But that Michel is indeed, a sexist.

That is judging the person, not the act.

Fine, whatever.

pdoel said:

Well, I assume you read my post above about the difference between saying you judge homosexuality, and saying you judge a drug addict.

But, for another example, how about we take a look at Michel's sexism debate.

You clearly said he is a sexist. No question there. Now, you aren't judging an act. In fact, later in the debate, you said you are not saying it's wrong to be a sexist. But that Michel is indeed, a sexist.

That is judging the person, not the act.

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Yep, I know. But I never said I wasn't juding the act in that circumstance. I just said that when I say homosexuality is a sin, it's judging an act. I never said that I couldn't judge a person. I'm judging him as a sinner, however.

:biglaugh:

Ah, yes. Nothing else to say, eh? Can't think of a reply, so you have to resort to laughing to cover up for that fact? Well, that's okay. I don't expect much more from anybody.

Aqualung said:

Which is an example of juding? Which is an example of "throwing stones"?

1. "Rape is bad."
2. "You are bad, because you raped someone."

Both? Neither? One or the other?

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The answere is BOTH are judging. One is judging a certain action as being sin and not a good thing to do.

The other is judging a person and his actions as being wrong (or sinful).

The bible says to judge righteous judgment (John 7:24). WE do that by using the the word of God as the standard (Phil 2:5). in love Baerly

Aqualung said:

Which is an example of juding? Which is an example of "throwing stones"?

1. "Rape is bad."
2. "You are bad, because you raped someone."

Both? Neither? One or the other?

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Baerly,

Actually NEITHER is a judgement. You have not provided a "sentence" which is entailed in a judgement.

Showing a prejudice based on your feelings would be a judgement. Condemning them to hell would be a judgement. Merely disapproving of their acts, no matter how heinous or benign, is not judging them. Christians are always called to be fruit inspectors (By their fruits you will know them...) but we are never called to provide any accountability for these actions. That is God's job.

NetDoc said:

Baerly,

Actually NEITHER is a judgement. You have not provided a "sentence" which is entailed in a judgement.

Showing a prejudice based on your feelings would be a judgement. Condemning them to hell would be a judgement. Merely disapproving of their acts, no matter how heinous or benign, is not judging them. Christians are always called to be fruit inspectors (By their fruits you will know them...) but we are never called to provide any accountability for these actions. That is God's job.

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Jesus talking to the woman caught in adultery told her to go and sin no more.That is a judgmnet Jesus made,but he did not send her to hell. Jesus decided she was involved in a sexual act that was sin according to the law. He also told her to stop it.

The bible tells christians to mark those which cause division (Rom 16:17).

The bible tells christians to deliver one in continual sin to Satan,that the spirit might be saved (1Cor. 5:5). Christians must make a judgment to know who is causing division.

(2 Thess.3:6,14) we're told to withdraw from any brother/sister who is walking disorderly or not according to the traditions which were delivered by the apostles.Christians must make a judgment to know which one is walking disorderly. This scripture also implies that there is a standard to which we are all to live by. (Titus 2:11,12) also talks of that standard which was delivered by grace.

(John 7:24) & (Matt.7:5) both teach christians are to judge other by there actions. this is not judging them to hell.

(Gal.6:1,2) tells christians to go to a church member who is caught up in continual sin and try to get them to repent, in love. To do such a thing christians must make a judgment upon the actions of others. in love Baerly -(John 7:24).

The reason we do this is because we are our brothers keeper and we wil be held accountable if we do not obey those scriptures.

Another reason we obey those verses above is that we help our brehtren to realize they will be held accountable for the sins they commit.

Even deeper than that though,we go to the person in continual sin because the bible says we must purge sin from the church or it will eat at the church like a canker(1Cor.5:7) (2Tim.2:17) (Titus 1:11). - in love Baerly

I don't get your point here... you want Christians to judge others? Leave that for God to do. In the passage where Jesus said "Go and sin no more, he specifically said

John 8:9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 "No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." NIV

Jesus REFUSED to judge this woman and forgave her instead. This is not to be confused with discernment. Be a fruit inspector, but don't condemn.

Baerly said:

Jesus talking to the woman caught in adultery told her to go and sin no more.That is a judgmnet Jesus made,but he did not send her to hell. Jesus decided she was involved in a sexual act that was sin according to the law. He also told her to stop it.

The bible tells christians to mark those which cause division (Rom 16:17).

The bible tells christians to deliver one in continual sin to Satan,that the spirit might be saved (1Cor. 5:5). Christians must make a judgment to know who is causing division.

(2 Thess.3:6,14) we're told to withdraw from any brother/sister who is walking disorderly or not according to the traditions which were delivered by the apostles.Christians must make a judgment to know which one is walking disorderly. This scripture also implies that there is a standard to which we are all to live by. (Titus 2:11,12) also talks of that standard which was delivered by grace.

(John 7:24) & (Matt.7:5) both teach christians are to judge other by there actions. this is not judging them to hell.

(Gal.6:1,2) tells christians to go to a church member who is caught up in continual sin and try to get them to repent, in love. To do such a thing christians must make a judgment upon the actions of others. in love Baerly -(John 7:24).

The reason we do this is because we are our brothers keeper and we wil be held accountable if we do not obey those scriptures.

Another reason we obey those verses above is that we help our brehtren to realize they will be held accountable for the sins they commit.

Even deeper than that though,we go to the person in continual sin because the bible says we must purge sin from the church or it will eat at the church like a canker(1Cor.5:7) (2Tim.2:17) (Titus 1:11). - in love Baerly

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NetDoc said:

I don't get your point here... you want Christians to judge others? Leave that for God to do. In the passage where Jesus said "Go and sin no more, he specifically said

John 8:9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 "No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." NIV

Jesus REFUSED to judge this woman and forgave her instead. This is not to be confused with discernment. Be a fruit inspector, but don't condemn.

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Doc, It is not me that wants Christians to Judge others but the Lord. Jesus demands that we judge others. That is what is taught in (Mt. 7:5,15,16,17,20) (John 7:24) (Rom.16:17) (1Cor.5:5-13) (Gal.6:1,2) (Eph.5:11) (Phil 3:17-19) (Col.2:8) (2Thess.3:6,14,15). We are to make our judments based upon the word of (Phil.2:5) (1Cor.2:16). When we make those judgments using the word of God it is actually God who is JUDGING others.

As far as (John 8:9) Jesus made the Judgment that the woman was involved in sin (Adultery) and he told her to go and sin no more. That was a judgment that she was invovled in SIN.

Every time the word Judgment is used it does not have to relate to the last Judgement at the end of time. in love Baerly

You can banter words all you want: Christians can be fruit inspectors and so they should be.

They should never ever try to condemn or pass judgement on others outside of the faith and we are explicitly told to NOT DO THAT.

I Corinthians 5:9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." NIV

Now, you can ignore this scripture as you wish and at your own peril.

NetDoc said:

You can banter words all you want: Christians can be fruit inspectors and so they should be.

They should never ever try to condemn or pass judgement on others outside of the faith and we are explicitly told to NOT DO THAT.

I Corinthians 5:9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." NIV

Now, you can ignore this scripture as you wish and at your own peril.

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My friend NetDoc, To apply what the Lord said in the verse above,wouldn't I have to apply this verse first?---> Judge righteous judgment (John 7:24) to even know which I should or should not eat with or even be around socially? I must make a judgement to tell who I can be around. To do that I would use the mind of God (Phil.2:5). The Judgement I made would be based upon the word of God, not mine. That would mean God made the Judgement ,not me. Baerly