Christians Only - What points of doctrine can I get wrong and still make it to Heaven

NetDoc said:

Jesus reduced all the laws into just two:

Love God

Love everyone else.

If you truly keep to these you will never fail.

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I agree NetDoc, except that Jesus actually reduced all the laws into just one command:

9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other. (John 15)

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When we don't love each other, we are condemned already.

And Bearly, I agree that Paul was also following and teaching the Lord's command (1 Cor 14:37): to build a harmonious community in the best way possible for the place and time. Today we are still obliged by the commandment to love each other to build community in the Body of Christ in the best way possible for our place and our time.

Peace,
lunamoth

lunamoth said:

When we don't love each other, we are condemned already.

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And I agree with that. But does loving one another absolve us of being expected to obey the rest of God's commandments?

Katzpur said:

And I agree with that. But does loving one another absolve us of being expected to obey the rest of God's commandments?

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Which commandments?

NetDoc said:

This is sadly true. Many won't take Jesus at his word: that Christians will be KNOWN by their love for each other and not by their willingness to castigate one another over nuances in scripture. I do believe that many who are intent on making us revert to a "law based" existence merely have a lust for POWER.

Colossians 2: 20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. NIV



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But hey, just because I refuse to depart from grace and try to live under the law, doesn't mean you aren't free to try. Let me know how you fare!

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Don't you just love how the bible helps us to understand things more clearly.Please notice in (COl.2:20)you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world.This is not saying don't do the commands of the Lord.It is telling us we have DIED to THE WORLD.This is encouraging us not to participate in worldy things. Notice it says its talking about the commandments and doctirnes of (MEN). This scripture by no means is telling us that were not to follow the commandments of the Lord. If it was this scripture would oppose (John 14:15,21) which says to obey the commandments of the Lord. If the bible opposes it self we need not even try to live by the bible because it is full of lies.But that is not the case.The bible is TRUTH (John 14:6).Not only that but if we turn from the commandmmments of the Lord we end up walking out of the grace of God according to (2 Peter 2:21). Those are ugly images of those who reject the commandments of the Lord.
The bible harmonizes.So therefore your interpretation of this section of scripture in the book of (Col.2:20-23) must be incorrect. in love Baerly

Oh MY! I forgot all about this post just like I forgot all about Squirt. I wonder how she (it was a girl, right?) is doing. She kind of dissappeared all of a sudden. Does anyone have her contact info by chance?

Quote:Originally Posted by NetDoc This is sadly true. Many won't take Jesus at his word: that Christians will be KNOWN by their love for each other and not by their willingness to castigate one another over nuances in scripture. I do believe that many who are intent on making us revert to a "law based" existence merely have a lust for POWER.


Hmmmm, My friend, how could you know that? How can we know why a person does something. Isn't that a kind of Judgment comdemned (Matt. 7:1) (John 7:24).That is a judgment we as humans cannot make. We can tell certain people are passionate about some things,but beyond that,we cannot know why they do certain things unless they tell us.
Let me bring up a scripture on this subject about law. (Titus 2:11)teaches us that the grace of God appeared. (Titus 2:12) teaches us something akin to (Col.2:20).
It teaches us to not to satisfy the flesh. Watch this,(Titus 2:12) teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust. But then notice, that same scripture (teaches) us to (do) some things like LIVE SOBERLY,RIGHTEOUSLY, and GODLY in this present world. Question: How does the bible (teach) us to (do) some things and (not to do) others? BY LAW,that is how. The New Testament Law (teaches) us to (do) some things and (not to do) others. The bible tells us were under law (Gal.6:1,2)
(James 1:25) (Heb.5:8,9). These scriptures tie grace and law together forever. Even when we teach people how to become christians (the gospel) it is a part of the law. So if were not under N.T. Law we do not have to even preach the gospel. Surely that cannot be!!!
- in love Baerly

NEtDoc, May I suggest that it is entirely possible that people teach that we are under the New Testament Law because that is what the book of Hebrews teaches us in chapters 7,8,9,10). So all those people are doing is passing on what was taught to them by the word of God (Heb.8:10). (Isaiah 2:3) tells us that the law was to go forth from Jerusalem.The way it goes forth is that people teach it to other people. That New Law is the New Testament Law. It is to be taught until the end of earth (Matt.28:18-20).Jesus said go and teach all nations,baptizing them.....teaching them to observe all things I have commanded. Now, (John 12:48) tells us that anyone who opposes these scriptures opposes Jesus. in love Baerly

lunamoth said:

Which commandments?

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All of them, of course. Why would it be important for us to only obey some of them?

Somehow I think I know where you're going with this question... Maybe I’m wrong, but I suspect you’re thinking that there aren’t any commandments that would not fall under the two greatest commandments of all – that we love God and love our neighbor. If that’s what you’re thinking, I would agree.

But loving our neighbor definitely requires more of us that wishing him well. It involves all of the things outlined in Matthew 25:34-40: Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick, etc.

I think most Christians would agree that those things are all important. Where my beliefs differ with those of at least some Christians is in what we must do, beyond loving our neighbor, to show God that we love Him, too. These things are what many Christians label “legalistic.” I’ll mention just a few of them, so you can see where I’m coming from.

(1) God told us in the Old Testament to remember the Sabbath Day and to keep it Holy. To me, this means that one day a week is to be kept sacred. We don’t show our love for God by attending a football game on Sunday, by going to a movie or the mall, or by doing our yard work. We show our love for Him by doing such things as attending Church and studying the scriptures and doing whatever else would bring us closer to Him spiritually.

(2) God commanded us to return one-tenth of all He has given us to Him, so that His work here on earth might be able to go forward. This is the law of tithing. It was given as a commandment, not as a suggestion. A lot of people will disagree with me, maybe you included, but I don't believe that Jesus ever indicated the law of tithing to be obsolete. In fact, He specifically pointed out to the Pharisees that while the payment of tithes is not as "weighty" a matter as mercy and faith, it is still a law. The scriptures also mention, in conjunction with the payment of tithes, the payment of “offerings.” Offerings are voluntary financial or other contributions above and beyond the ten percent the law of tithing requires.

(3) God established ordinances that He expects us to receive in order to be fully obedient. Some Christians refer to these as sacraments. While there are several different ones, one of the most important is baptism. I don’t believe that baptism is an optional ordinance, or one that we simply choose to participate in as an outward means of showing the world that we are committed to Jesus Christ. Not only was Jesus quite specific is stating that we must both believe and be baptized in order to attain the fulness of salvation, He was baptized himself, even though He had never sinned and was therefore not in a position of having to repent. When John questioned why He wanted to receive this ordinance, Jesus responded by saying, that He needed to be baptized “in order to fulfill all righteousness.” In other words, He was baptized in order to do everything that was expected of him. I therefore see baptism as one of the commandments we must obey "in order to fulfill all righteousness."

My response to anyone who says that my beliefs are “legalistic” (and I know you haven’t said this, Lunamoth), is simply that I believe it is important to obey these commandments for one reason and one reason alone: They are commandments.

EnhancedSpirit said:

They will be able to either complete their advancement in spirit, helping other members of their soul group, or they might choose to reincarnate, and try again on earth.

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That is EXACTLY what I believe, did you read that in Journey of the Souls book by Michael Newton? I believe that we go into heaven, meet our soul group and the Council of Elders which help determine our next life which is a result of our good and bad deeds.

Baerly... lots of fallacious points made, some in direct opposition to what scriptures teach. Probably the one idea of yours that is the most heinous is that we are still under some kind of law and not grace.

Galations 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. 11 Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. NIV

You can have your laws which lead to death. I choose the Spirit, and Grace and Life.

Katzpur said:

... Maybe I’m wrong, but I suspect you’re thinking that there aren’t any commandments that would not fall under the two greatest commandments of all – that we love God and love our neighbor. If that’s what you’re thinking, I would agree...

But loving our neighbor definitely requires more of us that wishing him well. It involves all of the things outlined in Matthew 25:34-40: Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick, etc.

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I agree as well... By loving God and loving everyone else, everything we do in service to people is in essence service to God:

Katzpur said:

Where my beliefs differ with those of at least some Christians is in what we must do, beyond loving our neighbor, to show God that we love Him, too.

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Well, I'm one of them By loving (i.e. serving) people, we ARE loving (i.e. serving) God.

Katzpur said:

(1) God told us in the Old Testament to remember the Sabbath Day and to keep it Holy. To me, this means that one day a week is to be kept sacred. We don’t show our love for God by attending a football game on Sunday, by going to a movie or the mall, or by doing our yard work. We show our love for Him by doing such things as attending Church and studying the scriptures and doing whatever else would bring us closer to Him spiritually.

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Why only one day? Why can't all the days be dedicated to loving (serving) God? By doing yard work for someone, or taking a kid who has no father or mother to the mall or a movie or a football game, or serving food at the soup kitchen or any of these things on ANY day, including the so-called sabbath, is showing love for Him. Is it sufficient to dedicate a single day of the week to attending church and studying the scriptures?
It seems more and more, I end up feeling like I'm not only letting God down, but feel like I'm missing out if I don't devote time EACH DAY to studying the scriptures (and I don't count RF time as part of this, though I do end up in the scriptured quite a lot when I'm here )

Katzpur said:

(2) God commanded us to return one-tenth of all He has given us to Him....

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I don't believe in a 'get out of hell' tax. As Jesus told the Pharisees... It is not sufficient to simply tithe as a fulfillment of a commandment...I believe 'alms' must be given freely and should not add to the burden on the giver. Anyhow, this is a topic for a another thread

Katzpur said:

(3) God established ordinances that He expects us to receive in order to be fully obedient.

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These are works. They are not sufficient for salvation.

Katzpur said:

My response to anyone who says that my beliefs are “legalistic” (and I know you haven’t said this, Lunamoth), is simply that I believe it is important to obey these commandments for one reason and one reason alone: They are commandments.

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I did not say that either. And I do not judge you in any way for believing as you do... I simply do not agree with your doctrine

Snowbear said:

I agree as well... By loving God and loving everyone else, everything we do in service to people is in essence service to God.

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Interesting that you would put it that way. That's almost verbatim the way the Book of Mormon states it.

Why only one day? Why can't all the days be dedicated to loving (serving) God?

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Hmmm. I can't recall saying that we should love and serve God only one day of the week. I merely quoted the commandment that states that we should set apart the Sabbath Day as a holy one.

By doing yard work for someone, or taking a kid who has no father or mother to the mall or a movie or a football game, or serving food at the soup kitchen or any of these things on ANY day, including the so-called sabbath, is showing love for Him.

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Well short of "getting the ox out of the mire," I've always found it works quite well to get the yard work done on the other six days. And as far as taking the child with no father or mother to the mall, a movie, or a football game on Sunday, I'd prefer to take him to one of those places Monday through Saturday, and to church with me on Sunday.

Is it sufficient to dedicate a single day of the week to attending church and studying the scriptures?

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No, of course not. That's not what I said.

I don't believe in a 'get out of hell' tax.

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Are you suggesting that I do? If you seriously think I believe God's going to send anyone to Hell for failing to pay his tithing, you haven't read very many of my posts on the subject of salvation. Simply obeying God's commandments isn't going to save anybody, but when Jesus said He would reward every man according to his works, I think our obedience to all of God's commandments will be taken into account.

I believe 'alms' must be given freely and should not add to the burden on the giver.

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Keeping God's commandments has never been a burden for me.

These are works. They are not sufficient for salvation.

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I couldn't agree more.

I simply do not agree with your doctrine and at the unfortunate risk of it being perceived as an attack, have decided I am no longer going to be 'afraid' to say so

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Good for you. It's about time you got over being afraid of me.

Hi Kat, Very nice reply.

Katzpur said:

All of them, of course. Why would it be important for us to only obey some of them?

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Rhetorical question coming up: which all? There are quite a few in the OT besides the big ten.

Somehow I think I know where you're going with this question... Maybe I’m wrong, but I suspect you’re thinking that there aren’t any commandments that would not fall under the two greatest commandments of all – that we love God and love our neighbor. If that’s what you’re thinking, I would agree.

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Yes, that is where I am going.

But loving our neighbor definitely requires more of us that wishing him well. It involves all of the things outlined in Matthew 25:34-40: Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick, etc.

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Totally agree.

I think most Christians would agree that those things are all important. Where my beliefs differ with those of at least some Christians is in what we must do, beyond loving our neighbor, to show God that we love Him, too. These things are what many Christians label “legalistic.” I’ll mention just a few of them, so you can see where I’m coming from.

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I'm not going to call you legalistic. There may have been a time when I would have done so, but not now. I can see these things as disciplines, which are commandments we take to heart and follow in our desire to live out the love commandment, to raise the ordinary to the extraordinary, to the holy.

(1) God told us in the Old Testament to remember the Sabbath Day and to keep it Holy. To me, this means that one day a week is to be kept sacred. We don’t show our love for God by attending a football game on Sunday, by going to a movie or the mall, or by doing our yard work. We show our love for Him by doing such things as attending Church and studying the scriptures and doing whatever else would bring us closer to Him spiritually.

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And I quite agree that this is in the spirit of God's law to love, to leave the world aside for a bit, give time to God and family, be intentional about our relationships with God and each other. It is interesting to me that this commandment of the ten was specifically used in example by Jesus to uncover our relationship with the law, that compassion, forgiveness and healing must always shine through our observances.

(2) God commanded us to return one-tenth of all He has given us to Him, so that His work here on earth might be able to go forward. This is the law of tithing. It was given as a commandment, not as a suggestion. A lot of people will disagree with me, maybe you included, but I don't believe that Jesus ever indicated the law of tithing to be obsolete. In fact, He specifically pointed out to the Pharisees that while the payment of tithes is not as "weighty" a matter as mercy and faith, it is still a law. The scriptures also mention, in conjunction with the payment of tithes, the payment of “offerings.” Offerings are voluntary financial or other contributions above and beyond the ten percent the law of tithing requires.

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I actually don't know where the law of tithing is found in the Bible, although it certainly is still included (if not always observed) in the tradition I follow.

(3) God established ordinances that He expects us to receive in order to be fully obedient. Some Christians refer to these as sacraments. While there are several different ones, one of the most important is baptism. I don’t believe that baptism is an optional ordinance, or one that we simply choose to participate in as an outward means of showing the world that we are committed to Jesus Christ. Not only was Jesus quite specific is stating that we must both believe and be baptized in order to attain the fulness of salvation, He was baptized himself, even though He had never sinned and was therefore not in a position of having to repent. When John questioned why He wanted to receive this ordinance, Jesus responded by saying, that He needed to be baptized “in order to fulfill all righteousness.” In other words, He was baptized in order to do everything that was expected of him. I therefore see baptism as one of the commandments we must obey "in order to fulfill all righteousness."

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You know that baptism and the Eucharist are also important to me although I guess I would probably refer to them as gifts, rather than commandments.

My response to anyone who says that my beliefs are “legalistic” (and I know you haven’t said this, Lunamoth), is simply that I believe it is important to obey these commandments for one reason and one reason alone: They are commandments.

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I'm not saying this to argue with you, but I don't think I've ever viewed the second two catagories you gave as examples as commandments. Even the first I think I would call a gift. And as I said above, I agree that these all (can or should) flow out of the One commandment. They only become legalistic if they come into conflict with the Way, which is Jesus, Who is Love, which is forgiveness, which is the path to unity and peace.

Lol, now I've got to go plant some daisies and repair my Birkenstocks.

luna

lunamoth said:

And as I said above, I agree that these all (can or should) flow out of the One commandment. They only become legalistic if they come into conflict with the Way, which is Jesus, Who is Love, which is forgiveness, which is the path to unity and peace.

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It appears that most of our feelings on this subject are not all that far apart. I'll try to get back to you tomorrow with answers to the questions you asked, but it's time for bed now.

Lol, now I've got to go plant some daisies and repair my Birkenstocks.

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It's after midnight in Colorado, too. This is when you plant daisies?

Katzpur said:

It appears that most of our feelings on this subject are not all that far apart. I'll try to get back to you tomorrow with answers to the questions you asked, but it's time for bed now.

It's after midnight in Colorado, too. This is when you plant daisies?

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Thanks Kat, catch you later. ~ luna

P.S. It's never too late for daisies. :foryou:

Katzpur said:

Interesting that you would put it that way. That's almost verbatim the way the Book of Mormon states it.

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As does the bible, though not verbatim.

Katzpur said:

Hmmm. I can't recall saying that we should only love or serve God one day of the week. I merely quoted the commandment that states that we should set apart the Sabbath Day as a holy one.

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I didn't say you did. I merely said (basically) that they are ALL holy.

Katzpur said:

No, of course not. That's not what I said.

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Again... I didn't say you did.

Katzpur said:

Are you suggesting that I do? If you seriously think I believe God's going to send anyone to Hell for failing to pay his tithing, you haven't read very many of my posts on the subject of salvation.

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I didn't say that... I merely said that I don't.

Katzpur said:

Keeping God's commandments has never been a burden for me.

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That's good. But again, I did not say it does, I just said that obligatory tithing should not be a burden on anyone. To some, 10% is not a burden and is quite easy. To others, 10% may mean they won't be able to pay the rent. Or the heat bill. Or buy food for the kids...

Katzpur said:

Good for you. It's about time you got over being afraid of me.

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Again, I did not say I was afraid of you.
I would sincerely appreciate you not telling me what I think. I would also appreciate you not attributing words to me that I did not say.

Snowbear said:

As does the bible, though not verbatim.

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That's why I thought it was so interesting. The Book of Mormon states, "... when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God."

I didn't say you did. I merely said (basically) that they are ALL holy.

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Oh, well I must have missed that verse. Would you mind quoting it for me? If that's the case, why do you believe God specifically gave the commandment to keep the Sabbath Day holy?

To some, 10% is not a burden and is quite easy. To others, 10% may mean they won't be able to pay the rent. Or the heat bill. Or buy food for the kids...

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I can see where that would be the case for some people. However, in my Church it is not. Everyone is expected to live the law of tithing, but no one goes without food or clothing or a roof over his head. We take care of each other. That's how it works.

Again, I did not say I was afraid of you.

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Oh, well then... I humbly apologize.

I would sincerely appreciate you not telling me what I think. I would also appreciate you not attributing words to me that I did not say.

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You know what, Snowbear? I think I'm through trying to get along with you. I've given it my best shot, and it's gotten me nowhere. Speaking of being afraid, I'm just going to state here and now that I'm done walking on eggshells, trying to avoid hurting your fragile feelings. How you feel towards me simply doesn't matter any more. At all.

Katzpur said:

...why do you believe God specifically gave the commandment to keep the Sabbath Day holy?

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I didn't say I don't keep the sabbath day holy. I said I believe ALL the days are holy... that means the Sabbath as well as the other 6 days.

Snowbear said:

I figured that out... what.... at least a year ago?

I've known that for over a year as well.

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Well, you're way ahead of me, then, because I just barely threw in the towel. I have bent over backwards trying with you, for well over a year, and nothing I have done has made an ounce of difference.

All that said - Though I obviously don't agree with your religious doctrines, I have been tried to be respectful in asking about your beliefs, even when you accuse me of motives I did not express or intend. I have not tried to tell you what you believe or put words in your mouth or accused you of saying something you did not. The same respect, whether or not you give a hoot about me personally, is expected and appreciated.

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A lot of people disagree with my doctrines, Snowbear. But they don't find it necessary to play the role of the victim while trying to portray me as the villain. Every time you disagree with me, you preface your remarks by suggesting that I'm going to think you're attacking my beliefs. You can't even ask a question of me without emphatically pointing out that you're only asking a question, not being confrontational. I'm not stupid. I can quite easily distinguish between a difference of opinion and an attack. I've made more than 5000 posts, and in perhaps a dozen of them at the most I've accused someone of attacking my faith. In those instances, the accusation was warranted. I have never questioned your motives or intentions, and I don't like your continual insinuations that I have. Furthermore, I've never been disrespectful towards you. On the contrary, I have made a point of measuring every word I say to you. As of last night -- and not before -- I have simply decided that I'm through with this nonsense.

The original post was:

Squirt said:

What, specifically, must I believe about Jesus Christ in order to go to Heaven someday? What, specifically, may I not believe about Jesus Christ if I'm to go there?

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I agree that obeying the commandments are important. I also think all of the commandments fit under the "Love God and love everyone else" directive.

Katzpur said:

My response to anyone who says that my beliefs are “legalistic” (and I know you haven’t said this, Lunamoth), is simply that I believe it is important to obey these commandments for one reason and one reason alone: They are commandments.

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So now I'm wondering... is unconditionally following the 'old covenant' commandments such as the examples Katz outlined above required to get into heaven?