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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I sense a fundamental difference in our thinking, and that is I believe there is one reality in which we all live, and if we could all just agree upon that it would lessen the killing and the misery in the world.

Who said that your perception of reality is the only one?
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I see bloodshed on a grand scale perpetrated by those who see politics as their 'religion'.
Some people's 'gods' are human. The misery in the world is caused by human beings doing inhumane things to other human beings, including innocent ones judged to be mere collateral damage, sacrificed for a political agenda. Just because a person rationalizes their conduct through their religion, doesn't justify their actions. I believe we will all ultimately stand before the same God.

You can judge a religion by how they view human life. For Christians, there can be no bloodshed or involvement in the affairs of this world, and this was to identify them in what we believe is "the final part of the days". (Isaiah 2:2-4; Matthew 5:44; 2 Corinthians 10:3-5; John 13 :34-35)

After thousands of years of living in darkness, scientific enquiry is arriving at some conclusions that can be agreed upon.

And this is what the Creator intended. As the maker of what science studies, he designed us to have inquiring minds and with intellect and curiosity to study and explore what he has made. Look how long it took us to get this far and we have only scratched the surface....imagine how long it will take to explore it all.....?

It is just a pity that men began to use their knowledge as an excuse to divorce themselves from the Creator and begin to worship human intellect itself. The higher the intellect, the more godlike their status became.

Does reality matter at all to you, or do you think hopes and fears are sufficient to live life, and upon which to make ones decisions? And I will refer to Heb 11:1, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see......... By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." This is gibberish to my mind, especially since the Bible doesn't describe reality.

Then you have misunderstood the meaning of that scripture.

Paul also said the "faith is not the possession of all people". (2 Thessalonians 3:2) That explains why some some people are spiritual by nature and some are entirely physical.
He also said....."But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ."

We all seem to fall into one of those two categories.....yet there seems to be those who are caught somewhere in the middle. Science has produced some very convincing propaganda to support their godless theory, but despite what science is saying, nagging doubts remains. You only have to point out the obvious design in nature to see their defensiveness expressed in anger. When you see purpose in nature, it logically requires planning, and planning requires intelligence. A spiritual man can do the math, but the physical man cannot process spiritual things. To put that into plain language, the two groups do not speak the same language. For the physical man verything must be explained physically....but that leaves huge gaps. The spiritual explanation leaves none. Perhaps that is something to contemplate?
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the Canaanites were living on their land for a couple of thousand years before the Christian 'God' began a genocide to remove them......

The Canaanites were a despicable people. They built up a particularly sordid record of immorality and depravity, as both Biblical and secular history testify. The curse pronounced on Canaan by Noah saw its fulfillment some eight centuries after he uttered it, when Canaan’s descendants were subjugated by the Semitic Israelites, later coming under the domination of Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.

As the Creator of all the earth, God had a right to give whatever portion of the earth he chose to allot to his own people.
He also had the right to terminate the existence of those he considered unworthy to retain the gift of life. The Canaanites were disgusting and would only have bred more disgusting offspring like themselves. We have two other examples in the Bible where God wiped out whole populations because of their depravity. The flood of Noah's day, and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Make of them what you will.

Sorry, but to say that reality is of less value than your or anyone's hopes and fears confuses me.....

When a person has hope, there is 'a light at the end of the tunnel'......for believers, that light is God with a promise of something better......for atheists that light is a train. If you want to get hit by the train, then you will not be disappointed....will you?
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Its not like we haven't tried to warn you all. (Matthew 24:37-39)
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You said "....but the point was, if those who don't believe, want to destroy the hopes of those who do...how is that doing them any favors?" No, I really am not interested in 'destroying hopes', I am interested in educating others so they stop killing each other because of false belief.

People kill one another over more things than religion.....try politics or financial gain....way more lives lost in those areas, I believe.

Would you kill a woman who was worshipping the moon because it says to in your Bible? I'm getting the impression you have no interest or capacity to distinguish reality from irreality, is that the situation here?

Since I am a Christian in more than name only, I would not kill anyone for any reason. The woman can worship her dog and I would not lift a finger to prevent her. I can offer her my hope and give her information about a better God, but ultimately she can choose to worship whatever she likes.
Any people doing the wrong thing will answer to God and his army, not us.

I can distinguish reality from unreality as well as anyone with a modicum of intelligence.....what makes you think that atheists are the only ones with a grip on reality when in actual fact, they believe in an equally fantastic creation story, with no real evidence to back up a thing they assume? I find that rather odd.
Perhaps they have better marketing.
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Does this mean that Vishnu is real or unreal according to your thinking? Have you read the Muslim 'holy' book? "Sura:51, Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another." And, "Sura 62.6, Say to the Jews: 'If your claim be true that of all men you alone are Allah's friends, then you should wish for death."

I have only my own experience of God to guide me....and that experience is expansive, spanning almost my entire life. What other people believe is up to them; what they accept as scripture, likewise.....all I know is that there is one true God and lots of false ones....there is one truth and lots of falsehood....we will all see soon enough whose God is the real one and whose scripture was accurate. That includes the gods of science IMO.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Ooh, racism and excusing genocide! So much Christian "love"!

God's love is conditional.....it has been from the beginning. Non-compliance with his reasonable requirements was never without penalty. Read Genesis. God's armchair critics always want to dictate their own rules to the Creator....sorry, it doesn't work like that.

If I had a wicked child who was flouting my rules, engaging in disgusting behavior, and disrupting the lives of everyone else in my family, I would kick them out. It would hurt me to do so, but it would be an act of love for the ones not causing me any grief. I would never commit racism or genocide...but I am not anyone's judge. There is one appointed to that role and he will carry it out with justice....not sentiment.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
God's love is conditional.....it has been from the beginning. Non-compliance with his reasonable requirements was never without penalty. Read Genesis. God's armchair critics always want to dictate their own rules to the Creator....sorry, it doesn't work like that.

If I had a wicked child who was flouting my rules, engaging in disgusting behavior, and disrupting the lives of everyone else in my family, I would kick them out. It would hurt me to do so, but it would be an act of love for the ones not causing me any grief. I would never commit racism or genocide...but I am not anyone's judge. There is one appointed to that role and he will carry it out with justice....not sentiment.
I'm not interested in your excuses for genocide. That is totally disgusting and beneath me.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Ooh, racism and excusing genocide! So much Christian "love"!
This was at Jehovah God's command, tho. (They would actually burn their children in fire, to their gods!) Since He can read hearts, that makes all the difference.... we should let Him decide those life-and- death issues.

And remember, the Gibeonites (a Canaanite race) showed humility, and were not destroyed...even protected by Jehovah from other Canaanites.

And let's not forget individuals, like Rahab the harlot who recognized Jehovah was the true God, saved from Jericho...and the "vast mixed company" of Egyptians who joined the Israelites in leaving Egypt. They came to realize that their gods were powerless against Jehovah. This is what the Canaanites should have realized... some did.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
It would hurt me to do so, but it would be an act of love for the ones not causing me any grief.


Yes, that's right. It shows no love for the innocent, by allowing the wicked to continue hurting them. Society in general enacts laws to protect the innocent, and punish the bad.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Just wanted to say to everyone here, thank you. I've posted a few questions this week on this website and everyone gave some very thoughtful answers! I had some great feedback on my last episode, and hope you guys enjoy this one. Recommend this video to those who are Atheist/Agnostic.

Now of course, anyone can find gaps and put out an argument to such a discourse but the fact that I'm putting my voice out there for others to listen, puts me in a position to all types of criticism, so I'm aware. Nonetheless, would love to hear your feedback. Thank you again. The community here is great!



I found it interesting your view on death how it changes the dynamics of things. Like you said, if we all thought we had eternity to do something, we might put off doing it forever. It was a piece of the puzzle I had not considered. A limited time frame does move the lessons and choices forward. Very Good.

What I know is that we are all Spiritual beings in our true natures. I won't go into it but I have direct experience to this and it wasn't near death. We are Spiritual beings trapped in a physical body. Just as our physical life time frame is limited so is our view of any past life. This narrows our view to the lessons at hand.

Want to investigate more? Talk with the very youngest of children. Many can tell the difference between who they are and this physical world. They must be young because there is so much sensory input that it isn't long one is seducing into thinking this physical world is all there is.

Can you tell the difference between who you are, a Spiritual being and your physical body? An exercise you can do: Find a dark, comfortable, quiet room without distractions. Close your eyes and focus inward. Say to yourself. It's me.

As I see it, religion is a catalyst that brings so many of mankind's problems to the surface so they can be dealt with. You brought up many examples. I have found no religion that really understands God at all. On the other hand each has pieces of the puzzle. I think the best way to find God is not to follow or accept at all. Just like with all knowledge, it surrounds us all waiting to be Discovered.

As I see it, Eternity has Purpose. This too can be Discovered. All the secrets of the universe stare us all in the face. Who can see?

The first thing God taught me was that mankind carries such a narrow view. I cry that!! I work on mine every day. God hides nothing. It is all within our grasp. In this time-based causal universe God's actions can be seen and they can not be altered. Perhaps, a good step would be to determine what God's actions are. By understanding them, one acquires insight well beyond blind beliefs and mere faith.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
This was at Jehovah God's command, tho. (They would actually burn their children in fire, to their gods!) Since He can read hearts, that makes all the difference.... we should let Him decide those life-and- death issues.

And remember, the Gibeonites (a Canaanite race) showed humility, and were not destroyed...even protected by Jehovah from other Canaanites.

And let's not forget individuals, like Rahab the harlot who recognized Jehovah was the true God, saved from Jericho...and the "vast mixed company" of Egyptians who joined the Israelites in leaving Egypt. They came to realize that their gods were powerless against Jehovah. This is what the Canaanites should have realized... some did.
I don't care if it was at some God's command. An atrocity in the name of a deity is still an atrocity. Mind you, I don't believe that it actually happened. It's myth. There's no evidence of a genocide of Canaanites. Actually, the Israelies were originally Canaanites but but splintered off and underwent a number of religious reforms. Of course the Bible is not a good source of information about other cultures, especially ones they brand as enemies. It's propaganda. Of course they're going to portray their enemies as virtually being demonic monsters who kill and eat their own children. It's a common tactic to dehumanize the enemy in times of conflict. The Romans did it with the Druids in ancient Britain. We cannot trust their descriptions of the Druids because the Romans were at war with them and eventually wiped them out. Did the Canaanites practice human sacrifice? Probably. It was common around the world. But so did the Jews. Did they practice it on the scale and frequency depicted in the Bible? Most likely not.

Regardless, it is repugnant to excuse genocide. That kind of cartoonish dehumanization is never the reality. There's no culture that's wholly full of evil monstrous people. That is racist and xenophobic to view other groups that way. There's always good and bad in every group with most people falling in between. The mentality that can excuse genocide and even view it a divine command is a very concerning and disturbing one. It does not reflect a stance of compassion and basic decency towards other beings. It is denying the humanity of other human beings. I mean to even describe their unborn children as disgusting is just revolting and over the top. It's shockingly vile. It reminded me of this neo-Nazi woman on a tv show who calmly said that all Jews should be killed, including little children, because they are forever the enemies of white people and so they should die to protect her children from them, all while she held her own child. Even her husband, who was also a neo-Nazi but not quite as extreme (odd, I know), was stunned into silence by her statement. That is true evil.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I don't care if it was at some God's command. An atrocity in the name of a deity is still an atrocity. Mind you, I don't believe that it actually happened. It's myth. There's no evidence of a genocide of Canaanites. Actually, the Israelies were originally Canaanites but but splintered off and underwent a number of religious reforms. Of course the Bible is not a good source of information about other cultures, especially ones they brand as enemies. It's propaganda. Of course they're going to portray their enemies as virtually being demonic monsters who kill and eat their own children. It's a common tactic to dehumanize the enemy in times of conflict. The Romans did it with the Druids in ancient Britain. We cannot trust their descriptions of the Druids because the Romans were at war with them and eventually wiped them out. Did the Canaanites practice human sacrifice? Probably. It was common around the world. But so did the Jews. Did they practice it on the scale and frequency depicted in the Bible? Most likely not.

Regardless, it is repugnant to excuse genocide. That kind of cartoonist dehumanization is never the reality. There's no culture that's wholly full of evil monstrous people. That is racist and xenophobic to view other groups that way. There's alwaya good and bad in every group with most people falling in between. The mentality that can excuse genocide and even view it a divine command is a very concerning and disturbing one. It does not reflect a stance of compassion and basic decency towards other beings. It is denying the humanity of other human beings.

All I can say in response, is Acts of the Apostles 24:15...

All those who've died or were killed, even "the unrighteous", haven't lost their lives forever. They will be given life again, during the Resurrection....but without bad influences surrounding them.

You show a concern for others, that is warming. This is the way God wants us to be. And Jehovah notices this quality in you, too.
It will be to your benefit.

Best wishes to you, my friend.
 

corynski

Reality First!
Premium Member
People kill one another over more things than religion.....try politics or financial gain....way more lives lost in those areas, I believe.



Since I am a Christian in more than name only, I would not kill anyone for any reason. The woman can worship her dog and I would not lift a finger to prevent her. I can offer her my hope and give her information about a better God, but ultimately she can choose to worship whatever she likes.
Any people doing the wrong thing will answer to God and his army, not us.

I can distinguish reality from unreality as well as anyone with a modicum of intelligence.....what makes you think that atheists are the only ones with a grip on reality when in actual fact, they believe in an equally fantastic creation story, with no real evidence to back up a thing they assume? I find that rather odd.
Perhaps they have better marketing.
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I have only my own experience of God to guide me....and that experience is expansive, spanning almost my entire life. What other people believe is up to them; what they accept as scripture, likewise.....all I know is that there is one true God and lots of false ones....there is one truth and lots of falsehood....we will all see soon enough whose God is the real one and whose scripture was accurate. That includes the gods of science IMO.
Yes, I understand your position better now. My only comment then would be to examine this statement you made.... "what makes you think that atheists are the only ones with a grip on reality when in actual fact, they believe in an equally fantastic creation story, with no real evidence to back up a thing they assume? I find that rather odd." We obviously have different methods of determining 'reality', and I would like to know how you ascertain what is real and what is not. Why is your god real and Vishnu or Shiva is not.........You appear to accept your religion entirely as factual and real, whereas none of religion can be ascertained by the scientific method of observation and corroboration. Personally, no 'god' has answered my petitioning, and Jesus hasn't returned as he said he would. It baffles me why a 'god' would create a world where every living creature must eat another living creature to stay alive. And where 95% of the species created have gone extinct. Yes, science could 'save' us from religion would summarize my feelings, as it led us out of the Middle Ages. "The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen its shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church." Attributed to Ferdinand Magellan.......
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
All I can say in response, is Acts of the Apostles 24:15...

All those who've died or were killed, even "the unrighteous", haven't lost their lives forever. They will be given life again, during the Resurrection....but without bad influences surrounding them.

You show a concern for others, that is warming. This is the way God wants us to be. And Jehovah notices this quality in you, too.
It will be to your benefit.

Best wishes to you, my friend.
With all due respect, that doesn't excuse killing people off. Is this deity not able to change the hearts and minds of people and so must resort to horrific acts of violence on a scale that beggars belief?

I'm not interested in the Bible God and what "he" notices about me. He's not the one I have to answer to at death.

Peace to you.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
My only comment then would be to examine this statement you made.... "what makes you think that atheists are the only ones with a grip on reality when in actual fact, they believe in an equally fantastic creation story, with no real evidence to back up a thing they assume? I find that rather odd." We obviously have different methods of determining 'reality', and I would like to know how you ascertain what is real and what is not.

I am well aware through personal experience, that there are 'realities' that are not obvious to all people. But just because they are not obvious, doesn't mean that they can't be real or valid. Science doesn't know it all...they just claim to.
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I am also aware that there are 'spiritual' people in the world, and there are those only acquainted with the 'physical' realm. Physical people do not operate on the same 'wavelength' as spiritual people, who seem to have an extra 'element' to their being than those who experience life in a purely physical way.

Why is your god real and Vishnu or Shiva is not.........You appear to accept your religion entirely as factual and real, whereas none of religion can be ascertained by the scientific method of observation and corroboration.

You know what's funny....? You say that as if you yourself have not been persuaded to see "science" and the "scientific method" as the only way to measure anything. This is physical people seeing only one way to explain everything physical. You simply have no real concept of the spiritual side of our existence at all.

Spirituality is like a muscle, the more you use it, the stronger it gets....
but like everything in life, under-use makes it weak....
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....and overuse makes it so gigantic that you just look ridiculous!
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If the spiritual 'muscle' you were born with was never used, it just shrivels up and dies.

I see my God, not as A Creator, but as THE Creator. And he gave us instructions about our existence and about his purpose for his creation and how his interaction with humankind for these last 6,000 years or so is taking us somewhere....somewhere man could never take himself. I understand that physical people just don't get that.

I have no personal relationship with any other gods. I have had no interaction with any other deities. I do with the God of the Bible. What he says resonates with me. It may not resonate with you.
He has guided me my whole life....never given me a bum steer. Always led me where I needed to be.

Personally, no 'god' has answered my petitioning, and Jesus hasn't returned as he said he would.

If you treat God as some kind of personal servant who is there to answer your every request, you will always be disappointed. What did you petition him for and what did you expect him to do?
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As for Jesus' promised return....he is already here, and we are staring at the end of the current world system right now, with only a few of its prophesied features still to go. Jesus' return was to be accompanied by a "sign" in the form of a series of world events all within a generation of his anointed disciples.(i.e. that is within the time period when they would walk the earth) We have only a couple of events still to go before it all comes crashing down.

So many people are wondering about the state of the world because they are experiencing such upheavals in their family life, in job security, in financial stress, in political unrest, in negative human impact on the planet, in weird weather events, as well as frequently occurring natural disasters.
None of us have ever seen the world in such a mess. The longer we live, the more change we see....and not much of it for the better.
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If you put your trust in man, what hope do you have? All our problems have been the result of humans selfishly ruling over other humans and placing more emphasis on money than people. Tell me what mode of human rulership has ever worked for the good of all? God promises such a rulership and I believe he will deliver it. From God's perspective, everything is exactly as he said it would be in "the time of the end".

baffles me why a 'god' would create a world where every living creature must eat another living creature to stay alive.

I do not believe that this has always been the case. I believe that all creatures on this planet are designed to be vegetarians...except the carrion creatures and bacteria who have the task of being earth's cleaning crew.
God doesn't tell us why he changed the diet of his creatures to eat meat...but he never does things without a reason.
It is prophesied to return to these conditions once the issue of earth's rulership is sorted out. (Isaiah 11:1-10; Isaiah 65:17-25)

And where 95% of the species created have gone extinct.

I have never seen how science arrives at this statistic. How could they possibly know this? It means that they would have to know all the creatures who have ever existed.....no one knows that except the one who created them.
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Yes, science could 'save' us from religion would summarize my feelings, as it led us out of the Middle Ages. "The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen its shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church." Attributed to Ferdinand Magellan.......

I agree with Magellan, which is why I left the church system over 45 years ago.

As for science leading us out of the middle ages....I personally think it has led us out of Middle Age thinking and attitudes, and right on into Sodom and Gomorrah. Killing God meant removing his moral laws. I don't particularly like living in this environment. I feel like a fish out of water in this world.....and grateful that I do. I am looking forward to a better one...the one my heart was programmed for.
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corynski

Reality First!
Premium Member
Who said that your perception of reality is the only one?
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I see bloodshed on a grand scale perpetrated by those who see politics as their 'religion'.
Some people's 'gods' are human. The misery in the world is caused by human beings doing inhumane things to other human beings, including innocent ones judged to be mere collateral damage, sacrificed for a political agenda. Just because a person rationalizes their conduct through their religion, doesn't justify their actions. I believe we will all ultimately stand before the same God.

You can judge a religion by how they view human life. For Christians, there can be no bloodshed or involvement in the affairs of this world, and this was to identify them in what we believe is "the final part of the days". (Isaiah 2:2-4; Matthew 5:44; 2 Corinthians 10:3-5; John 13 :34-35)



And this is what the Creator intended. As the maker of what science studies, he designed us to have inquiring minds and with intellect and curiosity to study and explore what he has made. Look how long it took us to get this far and we have only scratched the surface....imagine how long it will take to explore it all.....?

It is just a pity that men began to use their knowledge as an excuse to divorce themselves from the Creator and begin to worship human intellect itself. The higher the intellect, the more godlike their status became.



Then you have misunderstood the meaning of that scripture.

Paul also said the "faith is not the possession of all people". (2 Thessalonians 3:2) That explains why some some people are spiritual by nature and some are entirely physical.
He also said....."But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ."

We all seem to fall into one of those two categories.....yet there seems to be those who are caught somewhere in the middle. Science has produced some very convincing propaganda to support their godless theory, but despite what science is saying, nagging doubts remains. You only have to point out the obvious design in nature to see their defensiveness expressed in anger. When you see purpose in nature, it logically requires planning, and planning requires intelligence. A spiritual man can do the math, but the physical man cannot process spiritual things. To put that into plain language, the two groups do not speak the same language. For the physical man verything must be explained physically....but that leaves huge gaps. The spiritual explanation leaves none. Perhaps that is something to contemplate?
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The Canaanites were a despicable people. They built up a particularly sordid record of immorality and depravity, as both Biblical and secular history testify. The curse pronounced on Canaan by Noah saw its fulfillment some eight centuries after he uttered it, when Canaan’s descendants were subjugated by the Semitic Israelites, later coming under the domination of Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.

As the Creator of all the earth, God had a right to give whatever portion of the earth he chose to allot to his own people.
He also had the right to terminate the existence of those he considered unworthy to retain the gift of life. The Canaanites were disgusting and would only have bred more disgusting offspring like themselves. We have two other examples in the Bible where God wiped out whole populations because of their depravity. The flood of Noah's day, and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Make of them what you will.



When a person has hope, there is 'a light at the end of the tunnel'......for believers, that light is God with a promise of something better......for atheists that light is a train. If you want to get hit by the train, then you will not be disappointed....will you?
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Its not like we haven't tried to warn you all. (Matthew 24:37-39)

Deeje....... It's hard for me to make any sense out of your posts because you can't, or simply don't care to, distinguish between reality and non-reality. Which is obviously shaping up as the major problem for younger humans. But that seems to characterize this site as a whole, as science and reality are held in such low regard..... But that's OK, we'll all just make up our own realities...
"The Canaanites were a despicable people." As if you would know something about the Canaanites...... 'All' of the Canaanites were despicable? The old men and women, the babies and the infirm and the mentally handicapped.... all are such that your 'god' has to annihilate them and steal all their stuff? What rubbish..... So your 'god' then commits all the most despicable acts of genocide upon all the Canaanites, to 'right' the situation. And no, I wouldn't understand all this other nonsense you're telling me, so that degree in Anthropology I've got must be worthless too.... blah, blah, what a waste of time......
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Deeje....... It's hard for me to make any sense out of your posts because you can't, or simply don't care to, distinguish between reality and non-reality.

It is never surprising to me that those with little spirituality confess to having little to no understanding of the Biblical narrative.
Your reality will never cross the boundary into mine.....and yet I was once on your side of the boundary. In my youth, being taught evolution in science class at school, I was convinced that science knew it all and that I could trust what science was saying.....and yet there was this hole......no, it was a huge chasm that science could not fill. It took me a while to figure out what was missing.

But that seems to characterize this site as a whole, as science and reality are held in such low regard..... But that's OK, we'll all just make up our own realities...

It isn't "science and reality" that are the problem at all....it is individual response to science's godless explanation that determines how it's findings are processed. For those without spirituality or more specifically, without belief in a Creator, what science produces as their "evidence" appeals to their mindset. It is accepted without question. But to a spiritual person it is all very hollow.
The evidence for evolution, on closer examination, has no real substance because there is no way for science to prove that what they assume to have taken place over billions of years, ever happened.

It is ironic that the very thing evolutionists accuse ID believers of doing, is what they do themselves. You accept their "evidence" but fail to understand that what you actually accept is their interpretation of it. Why? Because of faith in what you are taught. Therefore, you have as much of a belief system as we do.

"The Canaanites were a despicable people." As if you would know something about the Canaanites...... 'All' of the Canaanites were despicable? The old men and women, the babies and the infirm and the mentally handicapped.... all are such that your 'god' has to annihilate them and steal all their stuff? What rubbish..... So your 'god' then commits all the most despicable acts of genocide upon all the Canaanites, to 'right' the situation.

The Canaanites were disgusting in their practices as history and the Bible attest to.....and to be fair, God gave them 400 years to clean up their act....they just got worse. How possible is it for those raised in that enviromnent to be unaffected by that abhorrent moral climate that prevailed for centuries. There were no innocents in that land.

What God did back then was within his right as Universal Sovereign to pronounce judgment upon an incorrigible people who happened to occupy the land that he had determined to give to his chosen nation. Pronouncing the death penalty is what the law was authorised to do when lawlessness was practiced. Whose law was that? It wasn't a case of just relocating them, because they would just have continued to practice their despicable lifestyle somewhere else, even corrupting other nations. The eviction was also a legally authorised execution of those guilty of capital crimes. It was not genocide, but an authorised act of justice. No human was their judge.

And no, I wouldn't understand all this other nonsense you're telling me, so that degree in Anthropology I've got must be worthless too.... blah, blah, what a waste of time......

Your degree in anthropology was given to you by whom? Who taught you? What textbooks did you use and who wrote them? How were you taught to evaluate evidence? No bias there eh?

Seriously, can you not see the problem that we do?

Your teachers have taught you something that you still accept as truth....and you are entitled to believe whatever you wish....but don't lose sight of the fact that science may well be a 'religion', passionately held by many because of believing what their teachers have taught them. It sits well and they need nothing more. That's fine for those with no spiritual need in them. But not everyone is like you guys.
That does not work for those with a strong sense of spirituality. Unless that void is filled, nothing makes a lick of sense to us. God fits so well into a study of his creation. We can't separate creation from its Creator. It's not a case of "won't"....it's "can't".

At the end of the day, all I see is "physical" people trying to push "physical" beliefs onto "spiritual" people as if their "reality" is the only possible one......it isn't.

Can you understand that?
 

corynski

Reality First!
Premium Member
It is never surprising to me that those with little spirituality confess to having little to no understanding of the Biblical narrative.
Your reality will never cross the boundary into mine.....and yet I was once on your side of the boundary. In my youth, being taught evolution in science class at school, I was convinced that science knew it all and that I could trust what science was saying.....and yet there was this hole......no, it was a huge chasm that science could not fill. It took me a while to figure out what was missing.



It isn't "science and reality" that are the problem at all....it is individual response to science's godless explanation that determines how it's findings are processed. For those without spirituality or more specifically, without belief in a Creator, what science produces as their "evidence" appeals to their mindset. It is accepted without question. But to a spiritual person it is all very hollow.
The evidence for evolution, on closer examination, has no real substance because there is no way for science to prove that what they assume to have taken place over billions of years, ever happened.

It is ironic that the very thing evolutionists accuse ID believers of doing, is what they do themselves. You accept their "evidence" but fail to understand that what you actually accept is their interpretation of it. Why? Because of faith in what you are taught. Therefore, you have as much of a belief system as we do.



The Canaanites were disgusting in their practices as history and the Bible attest to.....and to be fair, God gave them 400 years to clean up their act....they just got worse. How possible is it for those raised in that enviromnent to be unaffected by that abhorrent moral climate that prevailed for centuries. There were no innocents in that land.

What God did back then was within his right as Universal Sovereign to pronounce judgment upon an incorrigible people who happened to occupy the land that he had determined to give to his chosen nation. Pronouncing the death penalty is what the law was authorised to do when lawlessness was practiced. Whose law was that? It wasn't a case of just relocating them, because they would just have continued to practice their despicable lifestyle somewhere else, even corrupting other nations. The eviction was also a legally authorised execution of those guilty of capital crimes. It was not genocide, but an authorised act of justice. No human was their judge.



Your degree in anthropology was given to you by whom? Who taught you? What textbooks did you use and who wrote them? How were you taught to evaluate evidence? No bias there eh?

Seriously, can you not see the problem that we do?

Your teachers have taught you something that you still accept as truth....and you are entitled to believe whatever you wish....but don't lose sight of the fact that science may well be a 'religion', passionately held by many because of believing what their teachers have taught them. It sits well and they need nothing more. That's fine for those with no spiritual need in them. But not everyone is like you guys.
That does not work for those with a strong sense of spirituality. Unless that void is filled, nothing makes a lick of sense to us. God fits so well into a study of his creation. We can't separate creation from its Creator. It's not a case of "won't"....it's "can't".

At the end of the day, all I see is "physical" people trying to push "physical" beliefs onto "spiritual" people as if their "reality" is the only possible one......it isn't.

Can you understand that?

Deeje.......My degree in anthropology is from the University of California at Berkeley, 1965. I fear we will not likely communicate because to the world of science evolution is both a theory and a fact. And there is one reality..... Hard to believe I suppose when you have so many realities......
You said, 'The evidence for evolution, on closer examination, has no real substance because there is no way for science to prove that what they assume to have taken place over billions of years, ever happened." Absolute proof granted is an elusive thing, which is why science progresses slowly. Corroboration among scholars and peer review helps....... On the other hand what proof is available regarding any of the thousands of gods and goddesses created by humans. It's been a long journey, from wind and water spirits, all the way up to angels and devils, but there has never been any agreement, let alone 'proof' such as Jesus returning as he said he would....... about any of it. But soon the muslims will set you straight regarding whose 'god' is the 'real' one.
 

corynski

Reality First!
Premium Member
It is never surprising to me that those with little spirituality confess to having little to no understanding of the Biblical narrative.
Your reality will never cross the boundary into mine.....and yet I was once on your side of the boundary. In my youth, being taught evolution in science class at school, I was convinced that science knew it all and that I could trust what science was saying.....and yet there was this hole......no, it was a huge chasm that science could not fill. It took me a while to figure out what was missing.



It isn't "science and reality" that are the problem at all....it is individual response to science's godless explanation that determines how it's findings are processed. For those without spirituality or more specifically, without belief in a Creator, what science produces as their "evidence" appeals to their mindset. It is accepted without question. But to a spiritual person it is all very hollow.
The evidence for evolution, on closer examination, has no real substance because there is no way for science to prove that what they assume to have taken place over billions of years, ever happened.

It is ironic that the very thing evolutionists accuse ID believers of doing, is what they do themselves. You accept their "evidence" but fail to understand that what you actually accept is their interpretation of it. Why? Because of faith in what you are taught. Therefore, you have as much of a belief system as we do.



The Canaanites were disgusting in their practices as history and the Bible attest to.....and to be fair, God gave them 400 years to clean up their act....they just got worse. How possible is it for those raised in that enviromnent to be unaffected by that abhorrent moral climate that prevailed for centuries. There were no innocents in that land.

What God did back then was within his right as Universal Sovereign to pronounce judgment upon an incorrigible people who happened to occupy the land that he had determined to give to his chosen nation. Pronouncing the death penalty is what the law was authorised to do when lawlessness was practiced. Whose law was that? It wasn't a case of just relocating them, because they would just have continued to practice their despicable lifestyle somewhere else, even corrupting other nations. The eviction was also a legally authorised execution of those guilty of capital crimes. It was not genocide, but an authorised act of justice. No human was their judge.



Your degree in anthropology was given to you by whom? Who taught you? What textbooks did you use and who wrote them? How were you taught to evaluate evidence? No bias there eh?

Seriously, can you not see the problem that we do?

Your teachers have taught you something that you still accept as truth....and you are entitled to believe whatever you wish....but don't lose sight of the fact that science may well be a 'religion', passionately held by many because of believing what their teachers have taught them. It sits well and they need nothing more. That's fine for those with no spiritual need in them. But not everyone is like you guys.
That does not work for those with a strong sense of spirituality. Unless that void is filled, nothing makes a lick of sense to us. God fits so well into a study of his creation. We can't separate creation from its Creator. It's not a case of "won't"....it's "can't".

At the end of the day, all I see is "physical" people trying to push "physical" beliefs onto "spiritual" people as if their "reality" is the only possible one......it isn't.

Can you understand that?

Deeje...... Yes, I certainly can understand that, that isn't the problem. I see a larger picture perhaps than you do, of the evolution of human beings over a very, very long period of time, from primates and I think I understand the evolution of belief and religious thinking as well. Religion and belief were critical to hunting and gathering groups because it identified the members, and it solidified the group, without which it was much tougher to survive. That's to begin with.... then add on all of the spiritual and emotional reasons such as you've described to me and thus, until only recently, in the absence of any scientific knowledge a leader would create a 'religion'. And then religions evolve, as do languages and everything else, that's the nature of our reality to the scientific community. So in regard to your last statement, how many realities are there if there is not just one?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Deeje.......My degree in anthropology is from the University of California at Berkeley, 1965.

Berkeley.edu/evolibrary is a favorite site of mine when it comes to teaching the basics about evolution.
Its simplified explanations strip science of its jargon and attempt to explain things in plain English. :)

Welcome to Evolution 101!

I quote from it quite a bit.

Here is a small example about macro-evolution....

"Macroevolution encompasses the grandest trends and transformations in evolution, such as the origin of mammals and the radiation of flowering plants. Macroevolutionary patterns are generally what we see when we look at the large-scale history of life.

It is not necessarily easy to "see" macroevolutionary history; there are no firsthand accounts to be read. Instead, we reconstruct the history of life using all available evidence: geology, fossils, and living organisms.

Once we've figured out what evolutionary events have taken place, we try to figure out how they happened. Just as in microevolution, basic evolutionary mechanisms like mutation, migration, genetic drift, and natural selection are at work and can help explain many large-scale patterns in the history of life.

The basic evolutionary mechanisms — mutation, migration, genetic drift, and natural selection — can produce major evolutionary change if given enough time.


macroequation.gif
"

Reading through that the average science student would assume that this is all based on real evidence for "macro" changes in species that lead to the transformation, over millions of years, and billions of living things, into completely new organisms....but read the following portions from an ID perspective and you will see what I mean....

"Macroevolutionary patterns are generally what we see when we look at the large-scale history of life."

Use of the word "generally" is not a substitute for the word "specifically", is it?
And what do evolutionists "see" when they "look at the large-scale history of life."? They see only what they are trained to see. The "large scale history of life" is actually shrouded in the mists of time.

Because there are "no firsthand accounts to read", what do scientists do? They "reconstruct" the history of life as they believe it happened. All "the available evidence" is really only dependent on how science interprets that evidence. ID can give it a completely different interpretation that to us is just as valid. Who says science HAS to be correct? Who put science on that pedestal? Wasn't it humans?

"Once we've figured out what evolutionary events have taken place, we try to figure out how they happened."

So, do you see the problem here? They have a scenario into which all things must fit. They can, by their interpretation, MAKE them fit...very conveniently. Their diagrams and illustrations are all the "proof" they need.

Using the mechanisms that make adaptation possible, they conflate the data to make it appear as if macro-evolution is just a continuation of adaptation....(they even call adaptation "microevolution" so that the suggestion about it carrying on to bigger and better things is more believable) The problem is, they do not have a single substantive piece of evidence that such a continuation is even possible. Its pure educated guesswork.....nothing more.

"The basic evolutionary mechanisms — mutation, migration, genetic drift, and natural selection — can produce major evolutionary change if given enough time."


They cannot say that honestly because they are only assuming that this "can" happen. This is based on the assumption that if a little can do this...then a lot must do more....and yet there is no real evidence to substantiate this assumption.....no matter how much time elapses. No creature is seen to step out of its own taxonomic family.

I fear we will not likely communicate because to the world of science evolution is both a theory and a fact. And there is one reality..... Hard to believe I suppose when you have so many realities......


The world of science is not quite as knowledgeable as it makes itself out to be. And realities are completely dependent upon what "reality" one subscribes to. If there can be only one, then a lot of people are going to be very disappointed.
sad0013.gif


You said, 'The evidence for evolution, on closer examination, has no real substance because there is no way for science to prove that what they assume to have taken place over billions of years, ever happened." Absolute proof granted is an elusive thing, which is why science progresses slowly.

I guess this is my biggest gripe. Absolute proof of either scenario is missing. So how does science take the high ground and commandeer the topic like it is somehow superior? How do they teach "facts" to students that they do not have? Assumptions are not facts. "Might have" or "could have" is not the language of science, but the language of conjecture....which is what a "theory" really is.

Destroying God and stifling spirituality without just cause is not beneficial to anyone IMO.
Has godless evolution enhanced the lives of today's youth? Has it created awareness of the more moral concepts that kept us from degrading into what former civilizations fell into...like the Canaanites or the Romans? Where is the moral climate of the world of today headed? It looks like its is on a serious downward spiral to me.
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By all means teach kids what science knows for a "fact".....but don't teach them things that science "assumes" as if it is beyond question. Its an unsubstantiated theory...unproven and unprovable. Teach them that.

Corroboration among scholars and peer review helps

And that in itself is another problem. Corroboration can sometimes come about because of peer pressure, rather than what specific findings indicate. Scientists belong to the same club by and large, so don't expect anyone to break ranks who still wants any credibility....or a job.

And don't get me started about peer review.....what a joke.

"Peer review is at the heart of the processes of not just medical journals but of all of science. It is the method by which grants are allocated, papers published, academics promoted, and Nobel prizes won. Yet it is hard to define. It has until recently been unstudied. And its defects are easier to identify than its attributes. Yet it shows no sign of going away. Famously, it is compared with democracy: a system full of problems but the least worst we have."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420798/

On the other hand what proof is available regarding any of the thousands of gods and goddesses created by humans. It's been a long journey, from wind and water spirits, all the way up to angels and devils, but there has never been any agreement, let alone 'proof' such as Jesus returning as he said he would....... about any of it. But soon the muslims will set you straight regarding whose 'god' is the 'real' one.

False religion is just as bad as false science. Neither will prove vindicated in the end IMO.

But for those who have never had the one true God of the Bible in their lives, it is a waste of time trying to explain. Yet once you have experienced his hand in your life.....there is no one who can convince a true believer that he is a figment of their imagination.
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He and his creation are our reality.
 
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