"Jesus is the only way": required or not for a Christian?

stvdv · Apr 9, 2018

Windwalker said:
I think I might issue some caution here. Though I may have shared my views, in no way am I reflective of all Christians! In fact, I'd say most wouldn't quite agree with where I take things, and that's fine. We're all at a different place on our paths, and many are in fact quite exclusivist, which I find maybe fine for them, but impossible for me. So, don't be surprised if others aren't as "open" as I am.

Thanks for the heads up. My master once told me "Take a decision and do it". I tried 4 years many churches. Now I made up my mind. So now I can skip very quick, without giving those, outside my defined scope, second thoughts.

First time I went to the church I told Jesus "if there is 1 of the 4000 in the church not judging others, I will go for 3 years". Never challenge God. There was a priest, giving a nice sermon. Afterwards I popped the hot question and he said "I follow Jesus, but I don't judge your hindu views". Then I told him about my promise to Jesus, and immediately he said "Oh, but I preach here only once a year, I doubt if there will be anyone so openminded in this church".

So in 4 years I had about 4 times the non judging priest. But I kept my promise to Jesus [My master taught me "better die than not keep your promise", so I even did 12month extra to be sure]. Learned my lesson though. Next time I ask Jesus "If there is 1 judging I run out"

. But now God is so gracious, He always [once a year] gives me a headsup [dream] if this specific, first time, priest is coming. Makes me very happy.

Windwalker · Apr 9, 2018

Axe Elf said:
Yes He does.

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
--James 1:27

Hah! Yes!

Windwalker · Apr 9, 2018

stvdv said:
@Windwalker: "I think I might issue some caution here."
Thanks for the heads up. My master once told me "Take a decision and do it". I tried 4 years many churches. Now I made up my mind. So now I can skip very quick, without giving those, outside my defined scope, second thoughts.

First time I went to the church I told Jesus "if there is 1 of the 4000 in the church not judging others, I will go for 3 years". Never challenge God. There was a priest, giving a nice sermon. Afterwards I popped the hot question and he said "I follow Jesus, but I don't judge your hindu views". Then I told him about my promise to Jesus, and immediately he said "Oh, but I preach here only once a year, I doubt if there will be anyone so openminded in this church".

So in 4 years I had about 4 times the non judging priest. But I kept my promise to Jesus [My master taught me "better die than not keep your promise", so I even did 12month extra to be sure]. Learned my lesson though. Next time I ask Jesus "If there is 1 judging I run out". But now God is so gracious, He always [once a year] gives me a headsup [dream] if this specific, first time, priest is coming. Makes me very happy.

That's awesome. Thanks for sharing. I smile.

Windwalker · Apr 9, 2018

Axe Elf said:
When you are not confined to spacetime, the passage of time doesn't matter. The sacrifice of Jesus 2000 years ago means that the sacrifice has always happened, is happening now, and always will happen. So it redeems those who died "before" it as well as those who died "after" it.

That's an interesting concept. Maybe not in this thread but another, I'd be interested in hearing you explore your thoughts on this. Would you argue this event is eternal in nature, part of the fabric of all reality? You can share briefly here and if we wish can take it elsewhere.

stvdv · Apr 9, 2018

Axe Elf said:
I believe that Jesus' sacrifice is the only mechanism by which the gap between man's nature of selfishness and God's nature of love could be bridged; thus, no one is able to enter into the presence of God except by way of Jesus.

However, I also believe that this mechanism works implicitly for honest seekers of God in ALL religions. Anyone who seeks God can find Him, and can enter into the presence of God, because of Jesus' sacrifice, even for those who are ignorant of that mechanism. So it is true that no man comes to the Father except by Jesus, but it is not true that one has to be a Christian to enter into the presence of God (to be "saved," or granted eternal life with God).

Thank you. Wonderful formulated. And I know that what you write is true. Once I attended a wonderful ceremony in a church. 12h devotional singing. 200 people. Fantastic. Jesus came (into) me. Even though I was doing my "Sohum" mantra my master gave me. Jesus did not judge me. So I know Jesus will never judge me.

James1:26: 26If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless. 27Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Thank you. So, that's not so easy, to put it mildly. In my church they said "Give your life to Jesus and you are saved". They believed they were allowed to sin, because Jesus died for their sins already in advance. My master always reminded us to control our tongue and keep our heart pure (but also adding "without God's grace you have no chance in this era"; so that was a bit like they said in my church in a way). I know at least that I need God's grace, because I'm far from that purity. I do my best, and pray God will do the rest.

stvdv · Apr 9, 2018

Windwalker said:
Where I adopted those was from these three verses:

"God is Love". 1 Jn. 4:8
"God is Light", 1. Jn. 1:5
"God is Spirit", Jn. 4:24

I hear these like Satchitananda; Being, Consciousness, Bliss. or in placed in the same order; Life, Light, and Love

@Windwalker: Thanks for sharing. Nice to know where you found them

What I learned about "SatchitAnanada":

Causeless happiness alone is Bliss

When you feel happy, ask yourself "Why am I happy"
If you find a reason, then that is NOT permanent happiness, NOT bliss

Only Sath (Being) and Chit (Awareness) can result in Ananda (Bliss)
Be constantly aware of your true being. Those 2 can lead to Bliss

Being Awareness Bliss Always = Union with God

Axe Elf · Apr 9, 2018

Windwalker said:
That's an interesting concept. Maybe not in this thread but another, I'd be interested in hearing you explore your thoughts on this. Would you argue this event is eternal in nature, part of the fabric of all reality? You can share briefly here and if we wish can take it elsewhere.

If space and time are but two aspects of the same thing, then the act of creation not only established all of space, but it established all of time as well. If we were outside of time, we could see all of eternity, fixed in time, stretched out across forever, with any and every moment available for scrutiny. Each moment exists, has always existed, and will always exist, just as it was created.

Kurt Vonnegut explored the concept of a consciousness that was able to move among predetermined moments in "Slaughterhouse Five." The main character is kidnapped by aliens, who are able to see all of time at once, and he writes about them like so...

"The most important thing I learned on Tralfamadore was that when a person dies he only appears to die. He is still very much alive in the past, so it is very silly for people to cry at his funeral. All moments, past, present and future, always have existed, always will exist. The Tralfamadorians can look at all the different moments just that way we can look at a stretch of the Rocky Mountains, for instance. They can see how permanent all the moments are, and they can look at any moment that interests them. It is just an illusion we have here on Earth that one moment follows another one, like beads on a string, and that once a moment is gone it is gone forever. When a Tralfamadorian sees a corpse, all he thinks is that the dead person is in a bad condition in that particular moment, but that the same person is just fine in plenty of other moments."

So the event of Jesus' death exists, has always existed, and will always exist, just like every other moment, as a fixed part of the fabric of reality.

stvdv · Apr 9, 2018

Windwalker said:
It is a hard lesson to learn to stop and respect the other's perspective when you have a different one that may in fact be quite negative

Yes, that's a hard habit to break "think or talk negative about others (belief)". Backbiting behind their back, or slander when telling in their face, or mad monkeymind when only thinking. But being aware this kind of falls under "backbiting, slander, madness" should make it more easy to change this habits. I was taught a very simple rule "Only talk if it improves the silence".

It's very understandable that this is hard to break. Because thinking you know what (believe system) is best for the other falls under arrogance as far as I see it. And arrogance by definitions is not humble and won't easy admit it's mistake. Once I explained a Christian lady this. And she replied: "But the Bible says so, and I follow the Bible, then you can call me arrogant I guess". At least she was honest to see it was arrogant. So I said, you are arrogant, but I need not call you arrogant, because I will never come back in this church again, and I will never ever talk to you again. So that way you don't have to behave arrogant [much better for your resumee when meeting Jesus].

Next one is even more hard "when injustice is done to you, not to retaliate". Like if someone talks negative about you, to shut up and keep tongue, mind and heart clean. Almost impossible. Jesus could do this "Father forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing". If we do this, we should be careful not to feel spiritual superior. So all very tricky. As long as I can't control my mind, I just avoid those people, or at least don't talk to them. If they know nothing about me, they can't gossip either.

.

stvdv · Apr 9, 2018

Axe Elf said:
If space and time are but two aspects of the same thing, then the act of creation not only established all of space, but it established all of time as well. If we were outside of time, we could see all of eternity, fixed in time, stretched out across forever, with any and every moment available for scrutiny. Each moment exists, has always existed, and will always exist, just as it was created.

It is just an illusion we have here on Earth that one moment follows another one, like beads on a string, and that once a moment is gone it is gone forever.
So the event of Jesus' death exists, has always existed, and will always exist, just like every other moment, as a fixed part of the fabric of reality.

@Axe Elf: Thanks! Good concept. Master this will cure anger, fear, sadness instantly. Probably you will be enlightened even

stvdv · Apr 9, 2018

Axe Elf said:
You said this part is not for debate, so I will not attempt to debate you. I will, however, attempt to educate you.

When you are not confined to spacetime, the passage of time doesn't matter. The sacrifice of Jesus 2000 years ago means that the sacrifice has always happened, is happening now, and always will happen. So it redeems those who died "before" it as well as those who died "after" it.

@Axe Elf[/USER]: Aha, only now I saw the "education lesson". Thank you. Indeed very true. I read the Yoga Vasistha a few years back, and there this is described in detail (mind blowing). Rishis and saints were omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent because of this awareness. Quite understandable. So clearaudience, clearvoyance, clearfeeling is all quite normal [if you believe in this]. Glad you brought this up.

Thanks, for reminding me of this. With your example, or maybe this is the time, I feel it even better than a few years ago.

stvdv · Apr 9, 2018

Ponder This said:
I do believe that if a person calls himself a Christian, people will generally believe him to be one.

As for 'good'... "No one is good--except God alone." (from Mark 10:18)

Perhaps it should be more closely examined what A+B are requirements for.

@Ponder This: thanks for your contribution
1: I Fully agree. That was the exactly the point of my post. Do not doubt, judge or even think negative about the belief of the other.
2: I Fully agree. You got me there, thanks for keeping me awake. Better without the word "good".
3: Yes that's interesting. My goal was to try to find "common ground" for all believe systems. A+B were the biggest obstacles I came across. That's why I tried to temporary single those 2 out. And find out what it would bring us. Seems to work for a few. Maybe now time to put them back in (perspective)

A few replies @Axe Elf and @Windwalker put A+B already a bit in perspective.

@Ponder This: Please feel free to elaborate on your point 3. It's always good to look at many angles. Many people with all different backgrounds need all different angles to understand (that's why God giving many prophets + scriptures suitable for many different situations/cultures makes sense to me)

stvdv · Apr 9, 2018

74x12 said:
If anyone keeps His commandments then they love Him and He will show Himself to them.

Thanks, very short, very accurate IMHO. "It is (exactly) what it is". Took me awhile to decipher your mentioned religion though.

Faithofchristian · Apr 10, 2018

stvdv said:
I like science because it filters out mistakes made in "blind faith"

Matthew 22:37-39 New International Version (NIV)
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.

a) "like" implies first and second commandments are equally "greatest commandment"
b) "like" implies following second commandment is enough to follow
c) Jesus tells what is needed AND does NOT mention "Jesus is the only way" as being essential

No scientific definition, let alone proof, of a physical God. So for the sake of argument and simplicity, I think it's good to skip 22:37 and stick to 22:38+39

If first commandment = second commandment ("like") both are greatest meaning all others are subordinate, and can be discarded if they are "opposing first and/or second commandment". So for simplicity stick to "opposing second commentment".

* Masters are known to be smart and wise and accurate. Jesus addresses a group here, and gives them advise. He does NOT explicitly say "this is for all", nor "this is universal, for all time". So I think it is wise NOT to read more into His words.

* At least it might be safe to assume: Advise was meant for Christians at that time.

* This poll is NOT about whether or not it is meant for non Christians. Just to keep it simple

From the above it seems to me reasonable to conclude the following:
A = For a good Christian "Jesus is the only way" is not essential to believe in
B = For a good Christian "God, and knowledge of God" is not essential

1): As a Christian I agree to A + B [God+Jesus is not essential to believe in]
2): As a Christian I do not agree to A + B [God+Jesus is not essential to believe in]
3): As a non Christian I agree to A + B [God+Jesus is not essential to believe in]
4): As a non Christian I do not agree to A + B [God+Jesus is not essential to believe in]

*: Note: @Windwalker: I brought in "Jesus is the only way", because about all Christians I met tell me believing this is essential for being a Christian while I believe the above verse (Mt 22:39) is essential. I am curious if other Christians have different views [I hope this solves confusion]

First a person would have to take notice, That Jesus was answering a question that Jesus was ask.
To love your neighbour as yourself.
Now seeing Jesus was speaking to those of Israel, Who is Israel's neighbour ?

As the neighbour's of the United States, being Mexico and Canada.

So seeing the Samaritans worship and believed in the same God as Israel did.Thereby becoming Israel's neighbour.

The Samaritans were not of Israel, But the Samaritans lived next to Israel and worship and believed in the same God as did Israel.

Thereby being Israel's closest neighbour, at the time.

A persons neighbour are those who worships and believe in the same God as they do.

Just because Mexico and Canada borders the United States, does not mean they are the United States neighbour's, Unless they worship and believe in the same God as the United States does, And then Mexico and Canada becomes the neighbour's of the United States.

There are many other people who lives around Israel, As they do to day, But they are not considered Israel's neighbour's, For this very reason, that they do not worship or believe in the same God as Israel does.

But as for the United States, is Israel's closest neighbour, for the simple reason, the United States worships and believe in the same God as Israel does.

But yet the United States and Israel are separated by oceans of water. But yet the United States and Israel are neighbour's.

Let's for say, that Atheists lives next door to me, that does not mean that they are my neighbour, My neighbour are those who worships and believes in the same God as I do.

stvdv · Apr 10, 2018

Faithofchristian said:
My neighbours are those who worships and believes in the same

@Faithofchristian:. Thanks for the reaction
Love, Peace and Blessings to you.
Nice to hear we believe in the same God.

BilliardsBall · Apr 10, 2018

stvdv said:
I like science because it filters out mistakes made in "blind faith"

Matthew 22:37-39 New International Version (NIV)
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.

a) "like" implies first and second commandments are equally "greatest commandment"
b) "like" implies following second commandment is enough to follow
c) Jesus tells what is needed AND does NOT mention "Jesus is the only way" as being essential

No scientific definition, let alone proof, of a physical God. So for the sake of argument and simplicity, I think it's good to skip 22:37 and stick to 22:38+39

If first commandment = second commandment ("like") both are greatest meaning all others are subordinate, and can be discarded if they are "opposing first and/or second commandment". So for simplicity stick to "opposing second commentment".

* Masters are known to be smart and wise and accurate. Jesus addresses a group here, and gives them advise. He does NOT explicitly say "this is for all", nor "this is universal, for all time". So I think it is wise NOT to read more into His words.

* At least it might be safe to assume: Advise was meant for Christians at that time.

* This poll is NOT about whether or not it is meant for non Christians. Just to keep it simple

From the above it seems to me reasonable to conclude the following:
A = For a good Christian "Jesus is the only way" is not essential to believe in
B = For a good Christian "God, and knowledge of God" is not essential

1): As a Christian I agree to A + B [God+Jesus is not essential to believe in]
2): As a Christian I do not agree to A + B [God+Jesus is not essential to believe in]
3): As a non Christian I agree to A + B [God+Jesus is not essential to believe in]
4): As a non Christian I do not agree to A + B [God+Jesus is not essential to believe in]

*: Note: @Windwalker: I brought in "Jesus is the only way", because about all Christians I met tell me believing this is essential for being a Christian while I believe the above verse (Mt 22:39) is essential. I am curious if other Christians have different views [I hope this solves confusion]

Hard for me to vote since I had trouble understanding your premise. There is One Savior. Regardless of whether someone who hasn't heard of Jesus can enter Heaven, Jesus is the sole Savior.

Ponder This · Apr 10, 2018

stvdv said:
A = For a good Christian "Jesus is the only way" is not essential to believe in
B = For a good Christian "God, and knowledge of God" is not essential

Perhaps it should be more closely examined what A+B are requirements for.

stvdv said:
Please feel free to elaborate on your point

Concerning A:

John 14:5-6
Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:8-9
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

If 'Jesus is the only way' means to see Jesus in the flesh, then who today has seen him in the flesh? Surely the world is doomed.
But Jesus does not mean his flesh, he refers to the Father that resides within him. What is this that resides within him? It is the Spirit of God that resides within Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the way and the truth and the life. For this reason, people can be saved even though they do not meet Jesus in the flesh.

Concerning B:
"God and knowledge of God" What do you mean?
I can know someone and not know everything about him.
Does a man know his wife and a wife know her husband?
But if they didn't know each other until they were 21 years old and they have been together for a year, how is it that they know each other? Will the woman visit her husband's family and say, "Don't bother telling me anything about my husband. I already know everything about him." Or will she eagerly peruse the family album of his childhood photos and listen to her mother-in-law recount some story from his past? Knowledge indeed! What knowledge?
But if you know God, then you know Him (whether He is an ally or an enemy, you know Him). You recognize Him when He is present and when He is absent because you know Him.

stvdv · Apr 10, 2018

Ponder This said:
The Holy Spirit is the way and the truth and the life. For this reason, people can be saved even though they do not meet Jesus in the flesh

Thanks for your thoughts. Here an extra explanation from me. Hopefully things clear up. @Axe Elf also had some nice creative thoughts about this.

A): I Totally agree on this. Follow Jesus and He can save you. No need to know anymore. But also not meaning it's the only way for all.
I took another verse in which Jesus says:"Love God with whole your heart...." + "Love thy neighbour as thyself" as base for my post
These are the 2 Great Commandments. When I read this, I interpret this as "Do these 2 and you will be saved; nothing else Jesus asks from us"
BUT believing this doesn't exclude you can also be saved on the way you described above. God, Jesus out of their abundance of Love for us provides so many ways to get saved. Just chose the one you can follow best. Chosing 1 doesn't exclude the other.

B): Nobody alive now can give you proof of God, I think. Please if you can, proof this wrong. If nobody has proof of even the existence of God, not even a clear definition of physical God (earlier post, people didn't like other dimensions so much, that's why I keep it simple to physical), I think it implies trouble to get saved by knowing God. And anyway Jesus said that "Loving God" is alike "Love thy neighbour as thyself". So hereby making free the way to salvation for atheists and humanists also. I like this inclusiveness of Jesus very much. That's all there was, why I put B: here. I don't want to exclude atheist and humanist from Bliss and all the other good stuff there is to have.

stvdv · Apr 10, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
Hard for me to vote since I had trouble understanding your premise. There is One Savior. Regardless of whether someone who hasn't heard of Jesus can enter Heaven, Jesus is the sole Savior.

@BilliardsBall: Thanks for your thoughts. My premise is simple "I believe Jesus is "a" Savior. But for some Boeddhist, Boeddha might be the savior, or for an atheist or Humanist the savior might be (in) himself. My premise is clear I think "respect other views, don't interpret (fill in) for others what they must(have to, are supposed to) believe in". If you say IMHO I am totally fine with whatever you say. If you say my truth is the ONLY truth (like you do above), I am also fine, but don't agree.

Anyway thanks for pointing this out. Because your reply made me double check my post and I saw there was quite a confusing part. Below makes it clearer.

Reading other posts on the forum, I expect that most Christians vote "2".
Red part is correct and not confusing, I hope!
It's a pity I am not allowed to correct this confusion in the original first post. But "edit" button has disappeared.

*): Below is correct and not confusing:
From the above it seems to me reasonable to conclude the following:
A = For a good Christian "Jesus is the only way" is not essential to believe in
B = For a good Christian "God, and knowledge of God" is not essential

*): Below is the confusing part:
1): As a Christian I agree to A + B [God+Jesus is not essential to believe in]
2): As a Christian I do not agree to A + B [God+Jesus is not essential to believe in]
3): As a non Christian I agree to A + B [God+Jesus is not essential to believe in]
4): As a non Christian I do not agree to A + B [God+Jesus is not essential to believe in]

*): Not confusing is when I put it as follows:
In the below: (A + B)=[God+Jesus is not essential to believe in]
1): As a Christian I agree to A + B
2): As a Christian I do not agree to A + B
3): As a non Christian I agree to A + B
4): As a non Christian I do not agree to A + B

savagewind · Apr 10, 2018

Windwalker said:
This is very confusing. .

I think you are right or I agree.

savagewind · Apr 10, 2018

I think that what Jesus stands for is the only real hope for this Earth.

And, in case you would like my opinion here.......Humankind on this Earth is doomed. Just saying.

"Jesus is the only way": required or not for a Christian?

"Jesus is the only way": Required or Not?

As a Christian I agree to A + B [See text below]

As a Christian I do not agree to A + B

As a non Christian I agree to A + B

As a non Christian I do not agree to A + B

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