Afterlife and Dealing With Death

Leonides · Apr 7, 2018

Curious George said:
The message was really powerful. You used one phrase "In a way, death is almost intolerable." This sounds like the meat of your discussion. This as a title or a lead in the beginning would have been nice. You used the term "undesirable" early on in the video. But intolerable and undesirable are different. The distinction is seen in the phrases "I don't like that" vs. "I can't accept that." Your discussion revolves around the latter. Consequently, I think you should have lead with the latter. I enjoyed listening.

The use of "right," is a verbal pause. It is okay to have a non verbal pause and slow down. While you should not eliminate all of the verbal pauses, as some were well placed. Some were excessive and should be replaced with non verbal pauses. You have the advantage of recording yourself, so you can do another take.

Consider also giving a better road map in the intro. The idea here is that you explain to the audience more clearly where you are going. Your road map was "we are going to be talking about death, the after life--all that good Sh*t." I am not saying change this. It sets tone, designates audience and opens the subject. But as you move through the initial line of thought towards your thesis either in you thesis make points that outline a road map or use another meta-commentary to tell your audience what specific points relating to your thesis you are going to address. In this case the points you addressed were how some theists deal with death (afterlife), how some agnostics deal with death (focus on the grieving process), and why you believe the latter is better.

There is also this wonderfully real moment where you contemplate an unimaginable horror of your daughter passing prior to you. This addresses a very common fear and emotional connects. This too should have been part of the introduction. You can always call back to it, by referencing the earlier point, if you need it to make a later point. But this very human sentiment should either be used early or not at all.

Out of courtesy you should probably put the video in a spoiler with a language warning when you post it anywhere that is not your channel or a website which you control.

I know this may seem like a lot, but these are relatively small things. Your style is genuine and charismatic, your thoughts are intelligent, but the organization still needs a little work.

Thank you sir. This is just who I am on and off the camera. I know you saw #7, which was a story I had in my book. I want to make a audiobook in the future okay! Lol I’m joking. The feedback was great as well! I agree with you again. I can see that you encourage people to keep working, and being honest with the criticism.

You probably truly enjoy life. I mean it’s only people that love their life that encourage others to keep pursuing a goal. Thank you again sir, good to hear from you again.

Deeje · Apr 7, 2018

Carlita said:
I just want to say that first part is so not true. Im young compared to half the people on RF and the nieghbors I live in this complex are three times my age of 40s. Some actually have healthy lives when I tell them the affects of my chronic illnesses. Look up progeria.
About Progeria Its a rare condition that ages children at toddler age and many dont live pass their teens because of premature aging.

I am sorry to hear of your physical condition, Carlita. I have seen documentaries on Progeria....another cruel genetic presentation that robs young people of their quality of life. It is sad to contemplate just how many cruel and debilitating conditions that many children have to contend with and the medical profession seems to be lost in addressing most of them. Drugs often make things worse. Functional medicine is now addressing what orthodox medicine has been failing at for decades. More natural remedies and attention to the role of diet in alleviating symptoms, helping the body heal itself.

Carlita said:
Religion saves "old peoples" lives. Theyd die without it. Its good to step aside an be a skeptic. It lightens the religious-ego and in your comment hopefully put yourselves in a young ones shoes: not your experience of childhood (decade differences) but theirs.

How does "religion save old people's lives"? Most of our congregations are made up of young people. Perhaps you need to talk to some of them and see if religion is just for old people? Was Jesus old? Were his apostles old? Did he just appeal to old people? He appealed to people of all ages.....the truth doesn't age discriminate. All hearts are young....only bodies are old.

Carlita said:
Age comments nardles me nerves. Ive seen aged people change their thinking after varied cultural experiences. Its not age. Moreso personality, upbringing, and how they view life and others.

We study the Bible with people of all age groups. Those who present for baptism can be anywhere from 10-100 years of age. Hope and faith is not just for the elderly. Young ones too see the world rapidly sliding into its death throes. They want to live in a world where no one is unhealthy or suffering. We all want peace and security in our lives, but wicked humans keep stealing it from us......not for much longer according to the Bible.

Deeje · Apr 7, 2018

corynski said:
Deeje ......... May I suggest again that you are presenting a false image of atheism. Atheism means only that I personally do not perceive anything supernatural, end of story. That accords with 'reality' to me, as I see so much contradiction and fighting among those who do experience and espouse different gods and religions, none of which have any evidence to support them.
But you're talking about avoiding reality by believing whatever religious fiction exists, which is not my preference, and about blaming atheists in various ways.

I guess the difference between you and me is that I took the time to find out what was being taught in many religions and if whether it agreed with the Bible. I threw away false religion and kept the one I believe is streets ahead of the rest in what they teach and practice....but I never threw the baby out with the filthy bath water. As a believer, I hold the Creator in the highest esteem and I believe that the Bible is his instruction manual for the human race. It tells us what he did at the beginning, the issues raised on the subject of free will and how the Creator's purpose in the beginning is brought to its completion at the end. Its an amazing story and one that sits well with me.....it may not sit well with you, and that is your business.

No one is saying you can't believe whatever you like....you are free to choose your position on this subject....but the point was, if those who don't believe, want to destroy the hopes of those who do...how is that doing them any favors? It isn't like you are taking one bad scenario and replacing it with a better one.....you are replacing it with nothing. How is that helping anyone?

Deeje · Apr 7, 2018

Nowhere Man said:
I'd rather live being realistic about facts pertaining to life than live in a fantastical and delusional realm of the mind.

That is a little difficult because we all live in that place without realizing it. What you imagine life to be doesn't automatically rule out what I imagine life to be.....does it? What makes you think my imagined outcome is impossible? It is only so in your estimation of things. You are entitled to your estimation but it doesn't make it right.

Nowhere Man said:
Atheism is a fulfillment by which a person is brought back down to terms of the reality and state of things. Nothing is "robbed" whatsoever because there was never anything to steal in the first place.

Again, you can assert this, but how do you know? This is an assumption on your part.

Nowhere Man said:
No concerns about the future wither for better or for worse, because it's clear things already work. I'm not robbed, I was "given" something that I actually had all along.

Its hard to be "given" something by nobody. What was it that you had all along? And what do you imagine "already works"? I can't see how anything "works" in this divided world.

Unveiled Artist · Apr 8, 2018

Deeje said:
I am sorry to hear of your physical condition, Carlita. I have seen documentaries on Progeria....another cruel genetic presentation that robs young people of their quality of life. It is sad to contemplate just how many cruel and debilitating conditions that many children have to contend with and the medical profession seems to be lost in addressing most of them. Drugs often make things worse. Functional medicine is now addressing what orthodox medicine has been failing at for decades. More natural remedies and attention to the role of diet in alleviating symptoms, helping the body heal itself.

How does "religion save old people's lives"? Most of our congregations are made up of young people. Perhaps you need to talk to some of them and see if religion is just for old people? Was Jesus old? Were his apostles old? Did he just appeal to old people? He appealed to people of all ages.....the truth doesn't age discriminate. All hearts are young....only bodies are old.

We study the Bible with people of all age groups. Those who present for baptism can be anywhere from 10-100 years of age. Hope and faith is not just for the elderly. Young ones too see the world rapidly sliding into its death throes. They want to live in a world where no one is unhealthy or suffering. We all want peace and security in our lives, but wicked humans keep stealing it from us......not for much longer according to the Bible.

Thank you.

The context is can you live without god?? (Can you knowing he exists?)

Religion saves peoples lives because it gives them purpose to live. Religion (belief and practice of a faith) isnt a hobby that I if found one that clicks could just change. If you can live without your religion, how close are you to it?

My friend has cognitive heart disease. She is legally blind, had seizures, and is going blind. Her parents were going to abort her because they felt she would die aw an infant if not toddler but changed their minds do to their faith and devotion to god in both culture and faith. They didnt abort her. She is 36 years old.

She believes this was blessing and her goal is to take care of her family. Her belief in christ gave her purpose to connect with family and live life as one blessing. It (or christ) saved her life.

Not everyone is that close to their faith. I realized I didnt believe in god when god wasnt in my head even at my worst. Its a community or individual faith not a universal one. Christians-people who believe in chris; real christians-have killed people to make belief in christ a universal practice. We kill people by indocrination. Even evangalizing hurts.

-

Anyway, my answer is my example of my friend. If religion/your (and childrens) faith in christ is not what saves your live, what or who does?

Mock Turtle · Apr 8, 2018

Deeje said:
Wow, another person conned by statistics. People are not statistics. They are the ones experiencing the nightmare of "living" in circumstances beyond their control. Even in seemingly stable nations like Australia, the national debt is climbing and economically people here struggle all the same. The cost of living is ridiculous! Like other developed nations, we have more than our share of homeless people. Who gives them hope for better things in the future? The politicians? Most are depressed and unable to extract themselves from the misery. We at least can offer them hope for a better future that is not dependent on man.

Hope can sometimes pull people out of the mire and give them a reason to step up. We have seen it so many times.

You seem to have very negative views about life. It is all too easy to do so if one wants to see life this way, and is common when the news seems to dominate one's life - or some particular belief - this for example:

Today’s key fact: you are probably wrong about almost everything

A Few of the Many Ways We Distort Reality

If you consider that in all species, sex is for reproduction, animals who unconsciously engage in same sex activity are considered abnormal. But they have no moral sense to override their urges. Humans are different. Homosexuality means engaging in abnormal sexual activity that has nothing to do with reproduction. (It's primary function) In fact homosexual activity with multiple partners causes loathsome communicable diseases. We have the ability to evaluate our sexual urges and to judge them accordingly. Our moral sense is unique to us, and yet humans have proven that immorality can be indoctrinated into people's thinking like anything else. Promote it long enough and make it appear to be "normal" and you can influence humans to accept even what was once morally repugnant to them.

We have homosexuals in our ranks, but they choose to remain celibate. I can assure you that they do not feel deprived because they love and respect their God more than they obey their base urges. They keep busy in God's service and look forward to a better future. Their conscience is clear.

They have nothing to be ashamed of.

This should stay in another thread but I suggest you look at the apparent prevalent homosexual behaviour in so many other animal species (1500 or so?) - so as to indicate that it might reasonably be assumed to have some genetic cause.

But it isn't "most of us". If you consider numbers, then think about the overpopulated nations who outnumber us in the west. Asia, Africa and parts of South America, abject poverty is all they have ever known. You think life is "messy but fun" for them? You seem to have a very limited and unrealistic view of the world.

Since when was it any different?

I can say that JW's change lives in a very positive way. Rather than hand to mouth charity, we concentrate on individuals to give them a hand up, not just a hand out. One person at a time, we encourage them to see a better future and how to change the life they are already living. It is most satisfying. It is all based on applying Bible principles. They extract themselves from their hopelessness and see a brighter future. Do you find that threatening in some way?

Do you find atheists or agnostics threatening in any way? And do you really believe none of these are helping others out just as the religious might be doing? That really is elitist thinking.

Rubbish. The misery comes from having no one who cares about them. Good humanitarians are thin on the ground and overwhelmed by the magnitude of the problem. What they can accomplish is negligible compared with how many people need immediate and ongoing help. Add to that, political mismanagement, commercial greed, natural disasters and wars, and you quickly see that man cannot rule himself adequately. Selfishness and a lust for wealth and power dominate worldly thinking, and national and religious divisions make enemies where there does not need to be any. All of man's troubles are brought on by himself....

Really? So floods, famines, earthquakes are caused by us? Do me a favour Deeje and get educated rather than reading all the JW guff.

What does it matter to you what others believe? You have nothing to offer them once you have destroyed their faith. Are you the guy who steals candy from a baby just to watch it cry? I don't get it.

The non-religious have just as much to offer as the religious except we don't have strings attached - like some irrational belief system.

Deeje · Apr 8, 2018

Carlita said:
he context is can you live without god?? (Can you knowing he exists?)

Me personally? Once you have God in your life, personally directing your decisions, you can never be without him.
He is my constant companion, someone to commune with silently all through the day. If I see something in nature that moves me to thank him...I do. If I have a problem weighing on my mind, I talk to him about it and then I wait for the solution or the clarity of thought that always comes. It may not be what I expect, but it always works out for the best.

Carlita said:
Religion saves peoples lives because it gives them purpose to live. Religion (belief and practice of a faith) isnt a hobby that I if found one that clicks could just change. If you can live without your religion, how close are you to it?

I don't believe that a "religion" can save anyone. Unless your faith is attached to God and not a church, its a pretty meaningless attachment to imperfect men who are as sinful as you and I. Performing rituals does not bring anyone closer to God IMO.

Carlita said:
My friend has cognitive heart disease. She is legally blind, had seizures, and is going blind. Her parents were going to abort her because they felt she would die aw an infant if not toddler but changed their minds do to their faith and devotion to god in both culture and faith. They didnt abort her. She is 36 years old.

She believes this was blessing and her goal is to take care of her family. Her belief in christ gave her purpose to connect with family and live life as one blessing. It (or christ) saved her life.

Not everyone is that close to their faith.

I guess its how you view life itself. When you consider how the odds are stacked against any of us even being born, its a miracle that we as individuals made it through the process. Conception was somewhat of a lottery and the baby was the product of the winner. But in the case of your friend and yourself, things did not go well in the process. You have life but sometimes I guess you both wish that you were like everyone else, without the limitations?

If there is a Creator who promises to heal all sicknesses and disabilities, (and we have the example of Jesus Christ in this, he healed all who came to him, whether sick or disabled or blind or deaf, and he instantly restored these people to health)....then he taught them about his Kingdom to "come", when he will rule the earth and return a healed human race back into a close relationship with their Creator again, one on one, like Adam had at the start.

He can fix DNA and genetic problems instantly as Jesus demonstrated. He has even promised to restore the dead back to life.....and why wouldn't he? We are in this mess through no fault on our part.

There is so much to gain from what God is offering, but he will not force it on anyone. The invitation is extended to all, but not many will accept it because it has requirements for qualification.

Carlita said:
Anyway, my answer is my example of my friend. If religion/your (and childrens) faith in christ is not what saves your live, what or who does?

Faith and hope are tied in to a relationship with God. Neither are things you can order by the truckload. You have to build them, one 'brick' at a time until your wall of faith is impenetrable. There is no power on earth that can separate us from God......only we can do that. (Romans 8:35-37; 1 John 4:19)

Deeje · Apr 8, 2018

Mostly Harmless too said:
You seem to have very negative views about life. It is all too easy to do so if one wants to see life this way, and is common when the news seems to dominate one's life - or some particular belief - this for example:

All you have to do is speak to people outside of your circle. For JW's, we are a global family and we are in touch with many of our brothers in other countries as well as those in our congregations. That gives us a much wider circle than the average person. It's not about the news so much as what is related by those we know. My negative views are also shared by those we speak to in our door to door work.....I think you need to venture outside of your bubble a little more.
People's lives are are in a mess....the world is in a mess...where have you been hiding?

Mostly Harmless too said:
This should stay in another thread but I suggest you look at the apparent prevalent homosexual behaviour in so many other animal species (1500 or so?) - so as to indicate that it might reasonably be assumed to have some genetic cause.

Who would wonder at anything abnormal in this world? Animals do not have a moral sense, but humans do.
What animals do has nothing to do with us. A lot of what is deemed "homosexual behavior" in those animals was nothing of the sort.

Mostly Harmless too said:
Since when was it any different?

Your concern is touching.

Mostly Harmless too said:
Do you find atheists or agnostics threatening in any way? And do you really believe none of these are helping others out just as the religious might be doing? That really is elitist thinking.

My question was whether atheists feel it is their duty to take away hope for the future from those who hold a religious belief? ....what are you replacing it with? Something better?

Mostly Harmless too said:
Really? So floods, famines, earthquakes are caused by us? Do me a favour Deeje and get educated rather than reading all the JW guff.

Natural disasters are increasing, in case you hadn't noticed. Climate is changing, and man's impact on this planet is putting mother Earth and her inhabitants in jeopardy. Wars are being constantly fought, does no one think about the toxic stuff going up into the atmosphere? Imagine what a nuclear war would do...not to mention nuclear accidents like Fukushima and Chernobyl.

What creates famine is not drought...its greed. We have enough food to feed the world but we won't share what we have. We would rather plough perfectly good food back into the ground than give it to the poor.

Thousands of jets crisscross the skies dumping their poisonous exhaust up there every day. Car emissions to pollute the air.....Industry also poisons the atmosphere and the waterways. Rainfall brings the toxins down into the drinking water and you would be hard pressed to find any portion of this Earth untouched by man made pollution. It permeates our food, our drinking water and the very air we breathe. You think man is not responsible for that? Did you know that ocean and river outfalls from treated sewage contains tons of drug residue that people have excreted from their bodies, ending up in marine life? Not to mention them choking to death on plastic dumped into waterways.

Rainforest clearing and habitat destruction continue.....species are becoming extinct....I could go on and on.

That is the reality.

Mostly Harmless too said:
The non-religious have just as much to offer as the religious except we don't have strings attached - like some irrational belief system.

I don't see anyone addressing these issues regardless of their religious affiliations. The task gets bigger every day and there seems no end to it. You honestly expect optimism in these circumstances? I see a lot of ostriches actually.

Mock Turtle · Apr 8, 2018

Deeje said:
All you have to do is speak to people outside of your circle. For JW's, we are a global family and we are in touch with many of our brothers in other countries as well as those in our congregations. That gives us a much wider circle than the average person. It's not about the news so much as what is related by those we know. My negative views are also shared by those we speak to in our door to door work.....I think you need to venture outside of your bubble a little more.
People's lives are are in a mess....the world is in a mess...where have you been hiding?

I have travelled quite widely too, and I do generally keep up with the news. The difference being, that mine just tends to come from unbiased sources - as far as possible.

My question was whether atheists feel it is their duty to take away hope for the future from those who hold a religious belief? ....what are you replacing it with? Something better?

If it is the truth, then yes, why not. Why would any choose one religious belief over another - JW over Hinduism, for example?

Natural disasters are increasing, in case you hadn't noticed. Climate is changing, and man's impact on this planet is putting mother Earth and her inhabitants in jeopardy. Wars are being constantly fought, does no one think about the toxic stuff going up into the atmosphere? Imagine what a nuclear war would do...not to mention nuclear accidents like Fukushima and Chernobyl.

This is just so not true. Climate change might be a problem and one we really need to deal with but I hardly think it is related to any divine influence. Man's stupidity and short-sightedness is more than enough to account for this. We pollute the oceans and space, and are rather absent-minded concerning inequalities - the gaps between the rich and the poor - but we are just human.

Thousands of jets crisscross the skies dumping their poisonous exhaust up there every day. Car emissions to pollute the air.....Industry also poisons the atmosphere and the waterways. Rainfall brings the toxins down into the drinking water and you would be hard pressed to find any portion of this Earth untouched by man made pollution. It permeates our food, our drinking water and the very air we breathe. You think man is not responsible for that? Did you know that ocean and river outfalls from treated sewage contains tons of drug residue that people have excreted from their bodies, ending up in marine life? Not to mention them choking to death on plastic dumped into waterways. Rainforest clearing and habitat destruction continue.....species are becoming extinct....I could go on and on. That is the reality.

See above. No sensible person would not say we have very many problems here on Earth - the difference is that we created them all presumably because most of us are just not that bright and/or we are part of a an enormous inertial system - societies - so our individuality is generally swamped by all others. Other life have many problems too.

I don't see anyone addressing these issues regardless of their religious affiliations. The task gets bigger every day and there seems no end to it. You honestly expect optimism in these circumstances? I see a lot of ostriches actually.

You choose not to from my perspective, since I do know many are just as concerned as yourself - including me.

Unveiled Artist · Apr 8, 2018

Deeje said:
Me personally? Once you have God in your life, personally directing your decisions, you can never be without him.

That is what I mean.

Deeje said:
I don't believe that a "religion" can save anyone. Unless your faith is attached to God and not a church, its a pretty meaningless attachment to imperfect men who are as sinful as you

I see religion as a practice. So, going to the Hall is part of religion just as my praying by ritual. Its a practice and is embedded in our faith and culture or its new aged.

Deeje said:
I guess its how you view life itself. When you consider how the odds are stacked against any of us even being born, its a miracle that we as individuals made it through the process. Conception was somewhat of a lottery and the baby was the product of the winner. But in the case of your frie

Pretty much. I am grateful Im alive. In and of itself is all I need to feel that way. Everyone sees differnetly to the individual of course.

Deeje said:
If there is a Creator who promises to heal all sicknesses and disabilities, (and we have the example of Jesus Christ in this, he healed all who came to him, whether sick or disabled or blind or deaf, and he instantly restored these people to health)....then he taught them about his Kingdom to "come", when he will rule the earth and return a healed human race back into a close relationship with their Creator again, one on one, like Adam had at the start.

Deeje said:
He can fix DNA and genetic problems instantly as Jesus demonstrated. He has even promised to restore the dead back to life.....and why wouldn't he? We are in this mess through no fault on our part.

Deeje said:
There is so much to gain from what God is offering, but he will not forc

Deeje said:
Faith and hope are tied in to a relationship with God. Neither are things you can order by the truckload. You have to build them, one 'brick' at a time until your wall of faith is impenetrable. There is no power on earth that can separate us from God......only we can do that. (Romans 8:35-37; 1 John 4:19)

We differ in our worldviews. I honestly dont understand the concept of a god. The bible doesnt talk from god just about one of many believed in that time periods as per history by many people who wrote their own testimonies.

What I find interesting is you all (Muslims, Bahai, jews, christians, etc) use older, way older text to guide your life as if morals and culture that people practiced then can be used today as facts. Its alright to find connection with former literary work. Pagans do so all the time.

Like Pagans to, its interesting nonetheless. I mean, I look to the dharma but the dharma doesnt define my life. I dont need to quote it because its my life. The Dharma are not the suttas.

Let me ask, why do you (and other christians) quote scripture with your comments?

I dont look them up for prove accuracy or falsehood because its rude. I see christians do it all the time to each other and more puzzling to those who wont understand the spirituality behind it (it doesnt define us). It is not fact; so, its doesnt make sense to quote.

Is it by habit or upbringing?

Deeje · Apr 8, 2018

Mostly Harmless too said:
I have travelled quite widely too, and I do generally keep up with the news. The difference being, that mine just tends to come from unbiased sources - as far as possible.

What makes you think that humans living with these problems are biased? I don't think there is a group of people more widely exposed to the way things are than JW's. We talk to a wide cross section of people every day. Who else has a finger on the pulse in a more direct way? The news just confirms the bigger issues.

Mostly Harmless too said:
Why would any choose one religious belief over another - JW over Hinduism, for example?

Because humans have always been spiritual in their nature. It isn't something you can switch off. We are more than a piece of intelligent meat. We are unique in this aspect of our nature that no animal displays....and history attests to the fact that humans have expressed worship to deities since history was recorded. Having free will means that we choose how to express it.

Now if there is a true deity, it means that the rest are false. I believe that this true deity 'calls' people in whom he finds the right condition of heart....(not the physical heart but the inner person who desires to know him.) If you don't desire to know him, or are satisfied with a more convenient type of worship, you have the freedom to choose that. He will not interfere with your free will.

Mostly Harmless too said:
This is just so not true. Climate change might be a problem and one we really need to deal with but I hardly think it is related to any divine influence. Man's stupidity and short-sightedness is more than enough to account for this. We pollute the oceans and space, and are rather absent-minded concerning inequalities - the gaps between the rich and the poor - but we are just human.

I think you miss the point. What makes you think that there is a divine influence? What we see in scripture is the inevitable outcome of man's rulership and his impact on his fellow humans and his mismanagement of the earth and its resources. Foretelling that outcome is merely a statement of 'cause and effect'. God does not cause these things....we do. And he already told us thousands of years ago exactly what to expect in the period leading up to his final judgment of the human race. That is what we are seeing right now. The accuracy is amazing. Even to the prediction that man was capable of ruining the earth itself, written at a time when that was not even remotely possible.....it is now.

Mostly Harmless too said:
No sensible person would not say we have very many problems here on Earth - the difference is that we created them all presumably because most of us are just not that bright and/or we are part of a an enormous inertial system - societies - so our individuality is generally swamped by all others. Other life have many problems too.

Very true. But every one of us can be either part of the problem (by supporting the ones who are perpetrating this travesty on our only home) or we can be part of the solution (the only solution powerful enough to defeat the juggernaut that is tied in to man's greed for wealth and power.)...that is God's solution.....his rulership defeating man's rulership, and replacing it as a one world government, incorruptible and permanent.

Those putting their trust in man continue to be disappointed because they lie to gain power and never keep their promises.

Every political system on this earth is powerless to stop what is happening because it means going against the very ones who keep them in power. 'Money makes the world go around' as we all know....but I don't think most people can imagine how corrupt money makes individuals and corporations who are responsible for the bad decisions made by politicians. It is the reason why no intelligent decisions made, can be implemented. Big Business loses money if the status quo is changed. It doesn't matter what field of human activity impacts on the planet, nothing will change because the money makers have a cash cow that they will not allow to be slaughtered. It is the ignorant sheep who get fleeced.

The Bible says that in these last days, God was going to lift the lid on this cesspit of corruption and it was going to make people very angry to finally see what they have been putting their faith in all along. Its happening right now. People are waking up and finally seeing the lies that have been fed to them for generations. People of all nations are protesting about their governments like never before.

Mostly Harmless too said:
You choose not to from my perspective, since I do know many are just as concerned as yourself - including me.

Surely you know that any efforts on the part of concerned citizens are a drop in the ocean. Most people who have a humanitarian view are overwhelmed by the magnitude of the problems. No matter how hard they try, those problems continue to increase, day by day. The refugee issue now has reached epidemic proportions......why? What nation in these strapped economic times can care for their own citizens adequately, let alone care for those seeking refuge from their own terrible governments?

Step back and see...the Bible predicted these very conditions thousands of years ago. Is it a coincidence?

Deeje · Apr 8, 2018

Carlita said:
I see religion as a practice. So, going to the Hall is part of religion just as my praying by ritual. Its a practice and is embedded in our faith and culture or its new aged.

Since Christians are supposed to be guided by the word of God in their daily lives, what does that word tell us about how to worship God acceptably, rather than religion dictating the mode? Are religion and worship the same?

Carlita said:
We differ in our worldviews. I honestly dont understand the concept of a god. The bible doesnt talk from god just about one of many believed in that time periods as per history by many people who wrote their own testimonies.

To me, the existence of a Creator is vital as the very foundation of my knowledge. He gave us instructions about his requirements and all that we would need to know about him for now. Without that foundation nothing makes sense. I have no reason to be here other than the fact that I was just another fluke of nature....whatever "nature" is.

Carlita said:
What I find interesting is you all (Muslims, Bahai, jews, christians, etc) use older, way older text to guide your life as if morals and culture that people practiced then can be used today as facts. Its alright to find connection with former literary work. Pagans do so all the time.

If there is an all powerful Creator whose existence is in a realm that humans cannot see or experience, then I would expect that an ancient set of instructions would go with our creation. I would expect that these instructions would contain first hand information about creation itself, God's dealings with the human race from the beginning, and what his expectations for us are. It would go on to tell us why we are here and what the future holds? The Bible does all of that. Why would I require more?

Carlita said:
Let me ask, why do you (and other christians) quote scripture with your comments?

I dont look them up for prove accuracy or falsehood because its rude. I see christians do it all the time to each other and more puzzling to those who wont understand the spirituality behind it (it doesnt define us). It is not fact; so, its doesnt make sense to quote.

Is it by habit or upbringing?

In quoting scripture we are directing people to our authority. Looking them up is optional. If our words are not from the Bible then they are simply our own opinion, which is worth nothing in the big picture. We want people to see that the book given to guide us has some really good advice and information that explains a lot of things and answers many of the questions people want to know about. The reason why the Bible does not go out of date is because it is a book about human nature, not just about the culture of one nation. Human nature does not change and we can see things clearly when someone in ancient times had exactly the same thought processes and weaknesses that we still do. All that changes is the exterior environment and people's attitudes that are shaped by that environment.

God does not change to suit what humans want....it is we who need to change to suit what he requires of us. He makes it worth the effort.

Unveiled Artist · Apr 8, 2018

Deeje said:
Since Christians are supposed to be guided by the word of God in their daily lives, what does that word tell us about how to worship God acceptably, rather than religion dictating the mode? Are religion and worship the same?

Since I see religion as a practice (going to the Hall; going to Mass; praying in study groups; singing songs to ancestors etc) and not specific nor define by one religion, it would be odd and new age for me to hear one can be spiritual and not religious. Our cultures and language and religious origin that shapes our history (JW included) is what is part of religion. Maybe the word, like trinity and catholic, are hot words but that doesnt mean in regards to religion their definition snd context should be filtered through anti-religious people as a nasty word. The definition is seperate from the bias and opinions we have of the word. Jesus had religion. So did the prophets. So did the apostles.

Its not the word, its the context.

Religion and worship are the same.

Religion: when you go to the Hall, read from the bible, from the watch tower, listen to sermon, and talk amongs yourselves (I went to the hall a couple of times; couple JW friends invited me), all of thess are practices.

Worship: that practice is your worship. Its a devotion. (To christ) jesus worshiped. Abraham did. Moses. Apostles most definitely.

Deeje said:
God does not change to suit what humans want....it is we who need to change to suit what he requires of us. He makes it worth the effort.

I dont know a god to understand that. To me, its making someone written in the bible metamorphed into something outside it. Then christians talk about god, jesus, etc as if they know him personally, telling us what he thinks, how, and when. Like you are god.

Thats like saying I read about my aunt who passed away. Everything I read is her talking to me. Thats fine but that does replace actual relationship without the need of reading about her.

A lot of believers say they only know god and christ through the bible. I find that odd. If you cant trust christ without the bible, and christ came and told you something different than the bible, who do you trust: the bible or christ?

Which comes first?

Deeje · Apr 9, 2018

Carlita said:
Since I see religion as a practice (going to the Hall; going to Mass; praying in study groups; singing songs to ancestors etc) and not specific nor define by one religion, it would be odd and new age for me to hear one can be spiritual and not religious. Our cultures and language and religious origin that shapes our history (JW included) is what is part of religion. Maybe the word, like trinity and catholic, are hot words but that doesnt mean in regards to religion their definition snd context should be filtered through anti-religious people as a nasty word. The definition is seperate from the bias and opinions we have of the word. Jesus had religion. So did the prophets. So did the apostles.

Its not the word, its the context.

Religion and worship are the same.

Does the Bible indicate that the Creator required worship in Eden? I have not seen any. Perhaps worship was simply going to be an ongoing expression of thanks to a generous Father on a daily basis? I know that I am moved to express thanks naturally whenever I see or experience something in nature or in my family interactions that I believe is a gift from him. Every joy in my life is a gift from him. My communication with him is open 24/7.

No one it seems is grateful for anything these days.

Carlita said:
Religion: when you go to the Hall, read from the bible, from the watch tower, listen to sermon, and talk amongs yourselves (I went to the hall a couple of times; couple JW friends invited me), all of thess are practices.

Worship: that practice is your worship. Its a devotion. (To christ) jesus worshiped. Abraham did. Moses. Apostles most definitely.

Actually our meetings are more like a school than a church. We have no rituals or repetitive prayers, so getting together with our Christian family on a regular basis, is more like coming to Jehovah's house for a spiritual meal. It helps us to learn about God and his Christ and what is taught from the past equips us for what is coming in the future. Synagogues in the first century were similarly used for education, whereas the Temple was used for more formal worship. When the Christians separated from the Jews, the Temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70CE...and it was never rebuilt. God never commanded it because an earthly temple with its priesthood, rituals and sacrifices, were no longer necessary. Jesus had fulfilled the role of Messiah and had left the work he started in the hands of his apostles. The Christians had a completely different approach to worship than the Jews. Most of them were Gentiles.

Carlita said:
I dont know a god to understand that. To me, its making someone written in the bible metamorphed into something outside it. Then christians talk about god, jesus, etc as if they know him personally, telling us what he thinks, how, and when. Like you are god.

We are God's representatives, telling people what God says in the Bible. It is very much communication about him and from him. The Bible itself is powerful to those who accept its contents as coming from their Creator.

Thats like saying I read about my aunt who passed away. Everything I read is her talking to me. Thats fine but that does replace actual relationship without the need of reading about her.

If you had a close relationship with your Aunt, and she left you a letter outlining her feelings on a number of subjects, wouldn't that be like her talking to you? That is what God has done in the Bible. He makes his will and purpose known to those whom he recognizes as his children.

Carlita said:
A lot of believers say they only know god and christ through the bible. I find that odd. If you cant trust christ without the bible, and christ came and told you something different than the bible, who do you trust: the bible or christ?

Which comes first?

There is no other communication from God but the Bible. Anyone who comes to tell you that Jesus told them something different...that is cause to run a mile.

It makes everything very simple....and identifies right away, those who are out to mislead us. We are told not to believe anyone.....even an angel...if they try to tell you something different to what Jesus taught in the scriptures.

Hockeycowboy · Apr 9, 2018

Mostly Harmless too said:
Which is why I suspect you have the views you have. Your life perhaps is not so when many others just do find their lives as fulfilling as they require. Why not have a look at some autobiographies of some of the best minds to see how they solved the question of a meaningful life - they usually achieved something rather than just moaning and/or criticising others or life in general. Many might even have been religious.

19,000 children die from hunger every day......go talk to their parents about your meaningful life.

Unveiled Artist · Apr 9, 2018

I think the word religion is a hot word for you. In the dictionary, it can be liken'd to a Practice. Rituals, prayers, and worship you do for a deity of something of worship (you devote yourself to).

Deeje said:
Does the Bible indicate that the Creator required worship in Eden?

Required? Worship is not a requirement in and of itself. In Buddhism, we worship And its not required. People devote themselves to god or christ for many reasons. You dont need to fall on your knees to worship.

I have not seen any. Perhaps worship was simply going to be an ongoing expression of thanks to a generous Father on a daily basis?

Bingo! My whole post in one lump sum.

You make it so complicated.

I know that I am moved to express thanks naturally whenever I see or experience something in nature or in my family interactions that I believe is a gift from him. Every joy in my life is a gift from him. My communication with him is open 24/7.

Yes. Muslims pray five times a day between smaller prayers. Some Buddhist pray morning and evening. Ancestral faiths have ceremonies as one full prayer.

All pray 24/7.

What you wrote and these things above are called worship. Thats part of your religion.

Maybe the words are getting to you?

Deeje said:
Actually our meetings are more like a school than a church. We have no rituals or repetitive prayers, so getting together with our Christian family on a regular basis, is more like coming to Jehovah's house for a spiritual meal. It helps us to learn about God and his Christ and what is taught from the past equips us for what is coming in the future. Synagogues in the first century were similarly used for education, whereas the Temple was used for more formal worship. When the Christians separated from the Jews, the Temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70CE...and it was never rebuilt. God never commanded it because an earthly temple with its priesthood, rituals and sacrifices, were no longer necessary. Jesus had fulfilled the role of Messiah and had left the work he started in the hands of his apostles. The Christians had a completely different approach to worship than the Jews. Most of them were Gentiles.

Religion isnt how you define rituals and prayers.

Art is my religion. I do it daily but not at a specific time, hour, with a bowl on my head, and standing on one foot. My "ritual" (continoud practice) art is with me 24/7. Its how I do everything in life from studying for a test to picking food I would buy.

Religion has Nothing at all to do with Romans.

You are making the expression of devotion very very complicated.

Deeje said:
We are God's representatives, telling people what God says in the Bible. It is very much communication about him

You dont have to call it religion. It is what you Do not just what you believe though.

Deeje said:
If you had a close relationship with your Aunt, and she left you a letter outlining her feelings on a number of subjects, wouldn't that be like her talking to you? That is what God has done in the Bible. He makes his will and purpose known to those whom he recognizes as his childre

Literally? No. Course not. If I want to talk to her, I do so in prayer. Her written words (in my case her ashes) are memories and physical reminds of her but they dont supersede my knowing her personally. I can hear her say now: you go to my ashes as if they were your relationship with me. Even IT represents me" aka silly, why you talking to ashes? Im "right here!"

Bible, ashes, picture, etc talk About people we love. They are not the people themselves. When you quote, for example, you tell me About god. When you speak from your own experience, I hear god through You. The real god is the one who works through you not what you tell me from a book that I dont even consider spiritual truth.

The apostles kept asking jesus about finding god's messsge by following the laws of the written word (hebrew scriptures). Christ got irritated because they are looking right at the person they are trying to find from Moses.

Can you see the comparison on relationship/wisdom and material/knowledge?

Not so much different than Pagans. Before The Church started killing christians And pagans who worshiped statues, The Church created whats called carpet pages. They drew one letter and around it a lion, eagel, angel/man, and ox to symbolize the four apostles. Around the letter (a gospel in greek simular to the word christ in greek) is a story of each full gospels. People couldnt read so they depended on stories, statues, etc to understand the "beautiful word of god."

According to The Church people started worshiping the statues as idols. Later on when The Church (The late Roman Church before the Roman fall in the early middle ages) said since people worshiping free standing statues as they did before, they made relief art instead. The story of jesus protruded from the walls of the church so people wont worshiping them as god.

The Church does not teach idolism: no pagan religion; no pagan prayers. Thats all before and during the Constatine era. (Before the late middle ages about) The Church evolved since then. Catholics know this. Protestants (non liturgical) are still catching up.

not just historical knowledge, mind you.

Deeje said:
There is no other communication from God but the Bible. Anyone who comes to tell you that Jesus told them something different...that is cause to run a mil

Deeje said:
It makes everything very simple....and identifies right away, those who are out to mislead us. We are told not to believe anyone.....even an angel...if they try to tell you something different to what Jesus taught in the scriptures.

If jesus came and he said something contrary to scripture, who do you trust: jesus or the bible?

Do you look to jesus to see if the bible is true or do you look to the bible to see if you got the right jesus?

Why would you choose one or the other for both questions? Expain.

Edited.

Mock Turtle · Apr 9, 2018

Hockeycowboy said:
19,000 children die from hunger every day......go talk to their parents about your meaningful life.

And religion solves this? Many of us hardly see a purpose to life but often it just arrives at certain moments rather than others. I seem to have one at present. And it isn't generally in trying to persuade some away from their religion.

Mock Turtle · Apr 9, 2018

Deeje said:
What makes you think that humans living with these problems are biased? I don't think there is a group of people more widely exposed to the way things are than JW's. We talk to a wide cross section of people every day. Who else has a finger on the pulse in a more direct way? The news just confirms the bigger issues.

I doubt you get your information from the most reliable sources - scientific and/or independent news sources with no axe to grind. That is where I tend to look for information and data.

Because humans have always been spiritual in their nature. It isn't something you can switch off. We are more than a piece of intelligent meat. We are unique in this aspect of our nature that no animal displays....and history attests to the fact that humans have expressed worship to deities since history was recorded. Having free will means that we choose how to express it.

They might have been spiritual for the last few thousand years but there must have been a time before religious beliefs formed. Why not envisage a time when they die out too - they certainly are declining in many countries.

Now if there is a true deity, it means that the rest are false. I believe that this true deity 'calls' people in whom he finds the right condition of heart....(not the physical heart but the inner person who desires to know him.) If you don't desire to know him, or are satisfied with a more convenient type of worship, you have the freedom to choose that. He will not interfere with your free will.

Still just supposition.

I think you miss the point. What makes you think that there is a divine influence? What we see in scripture is the inevitable outcome of man's rulership and his impact on his fellow humans and his mismanagement of the earth and its resources. Foretelling that outcome is merely a statement of 'cause and effect'. God does not cause these things....we do. And he already told us thousands of years ago exactly what to expect in the period leading up to his final judgment of the human race. That is what we are seeing right now. The accuracy is amazing. Even to the prediction that man was capable of ruining the earth itself, written at a time when that was not even remotely possible.....it is now.

Lots of foretold truths, lots of nothing happened. Why would any rational person believe this. Almost anyone could predict that trouble and strife will be endemic for humans in some shape or form - it's just in our nature - for becoming so populous a species.

Those putting their trust in man continue to be disappointed because they lie to gain power and never keep their promises.

Every political system on this earth is powerless to stop what is happening because it means going against the very ones who keep them in power. 'Money makes the world go around' as we all know....but I don't think most people can imagine how corrupt money makes individuals and corporations who are responsible for the bad decisions made by politicians. It is the reason why no intelligent decisions made, can be implemented. Big Business loses money if the status quo is changed. It doesn't matter what field of human activity impacts on the planet, nothing will change because the money makers have a cash cow that they will not allow to be slaughtered. It is the ignorant sheep who get fleeced.

That is simply an argument for better governments, and many of us know we have hardly got to where we need to be in this regard.

The Bible says that in these last days, God was going to lift the lid on this cesspit of corruption and it was going to make people very angry to finally see what they have been putting their faith in all along. Its happening right now. People are waking up and finally seeing the lies that have been fed to them for generations. People of all nations are protesting about their governments like never before.

Well - God might have done this at any time in the past - why not then? This kind of thing is just so common - believing we are in some special time and due for momentous events. Wars often happen - which tend to be the biggest of these - but they are usually down to the usual stupidity and/or foolishness of the leaders. How many of us have that much say in such things?

Surely you know that any efforts on the part of concerned citizens are a drop in the ocean. Most people who have a humanitarian view are overwhelmed by the magnitude of the problems. No matter how hard they try, those problems continue to increase, day by day. The refugee issue now has reached epidemic proportions......why? What nation in these strapped economic times can care for their own citizens adequately, let alone care for those seeking refuge from their own terrible governments?

Step back and see...the Bible predicted these very conditions thousands of years ago. Is it a coincidence?

Coincidence? Yes, because it has happened before and no doubt will happen again, but as Pinker pointed out in his book, we are generally better off and less violent than we ever were. And few would prefer to live in earlier times.

corynski · Apr 9, 2018

Deeje said:
It isn't like you are taking one bad scenario and replacing it with a better one.....you are replacing it with nothing. How is that helping anyone?

Deejee..... Thanks for your reply. I sense a fundamental difference in our thinking, and that is I believe there is one reality in which we all live, and if we could all just agree upon that it would lessen the killing and the misery in the world. And of course I'm thinking of the 30 Years War and the Middle Ages and such. Do you know of any proof of anything supernatural? After thousands of years of living in darkness, scientific enquiry is arriving at some conclusions that can be agreed upon. Does reality matter at all to you, or do you think hopes and fears are sufficient to live life, and upon which to make ones decisions? And I will refer to Heb 11:1, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see......... By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." This is gibberish to my mind, especially since the Bible doesn't describe reality. I mean the Canaanites were living on their land for a couple of thousand years before the Christian 'God' began a genocide to remove them......
Sorry, but to say that reality is of less value than your or anyone's hopes and fears confuses me.....

corynski · Apr 9, 2018

Deeje said:
I guess the difference between you and me is that I took the time to find out what was being taught in many religions and if whether it agreed with the Bible. I threw away false religion and kept the one I believe is streets ahead of the rest in what they teach and practice....but I never threw the baby out with the filthy bath water. As a believer, I hold the Creator in the highest esteem and I believe that the Bible is his instruction manual for the human race. It tells us what he did at the beginning, the issues raised on the subject of free will and how the Creator's purpose in the beginning is brought to its completion at the end. Its an amazing story and one that sits well with me.....it may not sit well with you, and that is your business.

No one is saying you can't believe whatever you like....you are free to choose your position on this subject....but the point was, if those who don't believe, want to destroy the hopes of those who do...how is that doing them any favors? It isn't like you are taking one bad scenario and replacing it with a better one.....you are replacing it with nothing. How is that helping anyone?

Deeje ,,,,, You said "....but the point was, if those who don't believe, want to destroy the hopes of those who do...how is that doing them any favors?" No, I really am not interested in 'destroying hopes', I am interested in educating others so they stop killing each other because of false belief. Would you kill a woman who was worshipping the moon because it says to in your Bible? I'm getting the impression you have no interest or capacity to distinguish reality from irreality, is that the situation here? Does this mean that Vishnu is real or unreal according to your thinking? Have you read the Muslim 'holy' book? "Sura:51, Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another." And, "Sura 62.6, Say to the Jews: 'If your claim be true that of all men you alone are Allah's friends, then you should wish for death."

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