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The mustard tree?

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Matthew 13:31-32

He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches."


Ok, so what’s with this mustard seed?

I have never seen a mustard seed or a mustard tree as far as I know.

They don’t sound particularly exciting.

When I get to heaven I’d rather have palm trees, or even some pines. Apple trees would be nice. Actually, a lot of different trees sound more appealing than a mustard tree.

I looked online to see what these mustard trees look like.

They’re not too bad, but still, I like the others better. Also, the birds like the pines, oaks, and palms in my yard. I have lots of happy birds.


So, my question is:

What’s with this story?
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
Given that the parable of the mustard seed is sandwiched between the parable of the sower (in Matthew and Mark, but not in Luke) and the parable of the leaven (in Matthew and Luke, but not in Mark), it appears to be illustrating that something small can have a large effect, when put to proper use. Thus seeds sown on rocky ground cannot gain a foothold, but seeds sown in fertile ground will grow. Even the tiniest of such seeds can become a plant of great regard, much like a small amount of leavening in a batch of dough will leaven the entire batch.

So, get a little of the kingdom of heaven in ya, give it the conditions it needs to grow, and it's likely to take over your entire being.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Matthew 13:31-32

He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches."


Ok, so what’s with this mustard seed?

I have never seen a mustard seed or a mustard tree as far as I know.

They don’t sound particularly exciting.

When I get to heaven I’d rather have palm trees, or even some pines. Apple trees would be nice. Actually, a lot of different trees sound more appealing than a mustard tree.

I looked online to see what these mustard trees look like.

They’re not too bad, but still, I like the others better. Also, the birds like the pines, oaks, and palms in my yard. I have lots of happy birds.


So, my question is:

What’s with this story?
as a belief grows it becomes realized; if it finds good soil. if the belief is negative and finds the right kind of soil, it will flourish. if the belief is positive and finds the right kind of soil it will prosper.


 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
Given that the parable of the mustard seed is sandwiched between the parable of the sower (in Matthew and Mark, but not in Luke) and the parable of the leaven (in Matthew and Luke, but not in Mark), it appears to be illustrating that something small can have a large effect, when put to proper use. Thus seeds sown on rocky ground cannot gain a foothold, but seeds sown in fertile ground will grow. Even the tiniest of such seeds can become a plant of great regard, much like a small amount of leavening in a batch of dough will leaven the entire batch.

So, get a little of the kingdom of heaven in ya, give it the conditions it needs to grow, and it's likely to take over your entire being.
Luke:
"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God."

Better explained in the non Canon books.

"
Become zealous about the Word. For the Word's first condition is faith; the second is love; the third is works. Now from these comes life. For the Word is like a grain of wheat. When someone sowed it, he believed in it; and when it sprouted, he loved it, because he looked forward to many grains in the place of one; and when he worked it, he was saved, because he prepared it for food. Again he left some grains to sow. Thus it is also possible for you all to receive the Kingdom of Heaven: unless you receive it through knowledge, you will not be able to find it.- Secret John
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
Luke:
"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God."

Better explained in the non Canon books.

"
Become zealous about the Word. For the Word's first condition is faith; the second is love; the third is works. Now from these comes life. For the Word is like a grain of wheat. When someone sowed it, he believed in it; and when it sprouted, he loved it, because he looked forward to many grains in the place of one; and when he worked it, he was saved, because he prepared it for food. Again he left some grains to sow. Thus it is also possible for you all to receive the Kingdom of Heaven: unless you receive it through knowledge, you will not be able to find it.- Secret John

Yeah, that's what I said, basically, without being so gnostic about it.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
Yeah, that's what I said, basically, without being so gnostic about it.
Knowledge is knowledge. Some you have to seek where it is hidden.

1 Corinth:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Some seek from those who know, some seek from those who don't/didn't know.

The gnosis (knowledge) of Spirit is revealed in those who received it, not those who didn't.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
Knowledge is knowledge. Some you have to seek where it is hidden.

1 Corinth:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Some seek from those who know, some seek from those who don't/didn't know.

The gnosis (knowledge) of Spirit is revealed in those who received it, not those who didn't.
1 Cor 8:2 "If any man thinketh that he knoweth anything, he knoweth not yet as he ought to know;"

Knowledge is a byproduct of seeking the truth. It should not be prided as an end in itself.

1 Cor 13;8 "where there is knowledge, it will pass away."
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
1 Cor 8:2 "If any man thinketh that he knoweth anything, he knoweth not yet as he ought to know;"

Knowledge is a byproduct of seeking the truth. It should not be prided as an end in itself.

1 Cor 13;8 "where there is knowledge, it will pass away."
Misreading Paul. He was talking of the spiritual gifts. Christs words will not fade away. Paul goes on to say that he will "know" as he is "known". The knowledge in "part" will pass away with "perfect" (knowing).

Knowledge is something we seek and obtain for understanding. Which is what Paul says in the last 8 words in 1 Cor 8:2.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Gerry, you can check out mustard seeds in the spice section of your local supermarket.
Matt's point is, they're very small yet, properly tended, can grow into something significant -- like an idea.
The tree, however, is an exaggeration. Mustard's not a tree.
The mustard plant is really gorgeous when in bloom.
Quite so -- in its place. But last week I had to spend an hour mowing down a massive growth of the stuff which was taking over my yard, which would have looked like this by now:

images
 
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Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Gerry, you can check out mustard seeds in the spice section of your local supermarket.
Matt's point is, they're very small yet, properly tended, can grow into something significant -- like an idea.
The tree, however, is an exaggeration. Mustard's not a tree.

Quite so -- in its place. But last week I had to spend an hour mowing down a massive growth of the stuff which was taking over my yard, which would have looked like this by now:

images
Quite pretty.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Matthew 13:31-32

He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches."


Ok, so what’s with this mustard seed?

I have never seen a mustard seed or a mustard tree as far as I know.

They don’t sound particularly exciting.

When I get to heaven I’d rather have palm trees, or even some pines. Apple trees would be nice. Actually, a lot of different trees sound more appealing than a mustard tree.

I looked online to see what these mustard trees look like.

They’re not too bad, but still, I like the others better. Also, the birds like the pines, oaks, and palms in my yard. I have lots of happy birds.


So, my question is:

What’s with this story?
I've grown mustard.....it isn't a tree
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
Misreading Paul. He was talking of the spiritual gifts. Christs words will not fade away. Paul goes on to say that he will "know" as he is "known". The knowledge in "part" will pass away with "perfect" (knowing).

Knowledge is something we seek and obtain for understanding. Which is what Paul says in the last 8 words in 1 Cor 8:2.
You're misreading Paul.

Paul's desire was to know Christ, and in knowing Christ be known by Christ. Knowing Christ and loving Christ are equivalent. The perfect knowledge of which you speak will only be attained at the resurrection. The knowledge of this world will be forever imperfect.

It may in the end be a matter of emphasis, but your emphasis on "knowledge" as an end in itself, as opposed to knowing/loving Christ, is obscure and not really biblical. It is indeed the trap that so many theologians fall into. Just because they think that they know something, they think that they are superior.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
You're misreading Paul.

Paul's desire was to know Christ, and in knowing Christ be known by Christ. Knowing Christ and loving Christ are equivalent. The perfect knowledge of which you speak will only be attained at the resurrection. The knowledge of this world will be forever imperfect.

It may in the end be a matter of emphasis, but your emphasis on "knowledge" as an end in itself, as opposed to knowing/loving Christ, is obscure and not really biblical. It is indeed the trap that so many theologians fall into. Just because they think that they know something, they think that they are superior.
You are seeing resurrection as something after we physically die. We achieve it before we die.

Romans:
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Gospel of Philip:
The chrism is superior to baptism, for it is from the word "Chrism" that we have been called "Christians," certainly not because of the word "baptism". And it is because of the chrism that "the Christ" has his name. For the Father anointed the Son, and the Son anointed the apostles, and the apostles anointed us. He who has been anointed possesses everything. He possesses the resurrection, the light, the cross, the Holy Spirit. The Father gave him this in the bridal chamber; he merely accepted (the gift). The Father was in the Son and the Son in the Father. This is the Kingdom of Heaven.

You are resurrected when you receive the Spirit. A Christian doesn't taste death for this reason. He has already died to the flesh, and his mind is spirit.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
You are seeing resurrection as something after we physically die. We achieve it before we die.

Romans:
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Gospel of Philip:
The chrism is superior to baptism, for it is from the word "Chrism" that we have been called "Christians," certainly not because of the word "baptism". And it is because of the chrism that "the Christ" has his name. For the Father anointed the Son, and the Son anointed the apostles, and the apostles anointed us. He who has been anointed possesses everything. He possesses the resurrection, the light, the cross, the Holy Spirit. The Father gave him this in the bridal chamber; he merely accepted (the gift). The Father was in the Son and the Son in the Father. This is the Kingdom of Heaven.

You are resurrected when you receive the Spirit. A Christian doesn't taste death for this reason. He has already died to the flesh, and his mind is spirit.
1 Cor 13;9 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

Just because of the resurrection of the spirit does not mean the flesh is resurrected. We are still under the curse of Adam in the flesh. Not until the resurrection of the body at the second coming will perfection come.
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
1 Cor 13;9 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

Just because of the resurrection of the spirit does not mean the flesh is resurrected. We are still under the curse of Adam in the flesh. Not until the resurrection of the body at the second coming will perfection come.
Then you just keep waiting for that second coming like all those for centuries before you. The "glass" Paul spoke of is the reflection of spirit.

The orthodox church keeps you where they want you. Second coming? Hell? Both physical teachings.

Christ came a second time already:

Now the twelve disciples were sitting all together at the same time, and, remembering what the Savior had said to each one of them, whether secretly or openly, they were setting it down in books. And I was writing what was in my book - lo, the Savior appeared, after he had departed from us while we gazed at him. And five hundred and fifty days after he arose from the dead, we said to him: "Have you gone and departed from us?"- Secret James

Straightway, while I was contemplating these things, behold, the heavens opened and the whole creation which is below heaven shone, and the world was shaken. I was afraid, and behold I saw in the light a youth who stood by me. While I looked at him, he became like an old man. And he changed his likeness (again), becoming like a servant. There was not a plurality before me, but there was a likeness with multiple forms in the light, and the likenesses appeared through each other, and the likeness had three forms.
He said to me, "John, John, why do you doubt, or why are you afraid? You are not unfamiliar with this image, are you? - that is, do not be timid! - I am the one who is with you (pl.) always. I am the Father, I am the Mother, I am the Son. I am the undefiled and incorruptible one. Now I have come to teach you what is and what was and what will come to pass, that you may know the things which are not revealed and those which are revealed, and to teach you concerning the unwavering race of the perfect Man. Now, therefore, lift up your face, that you may receive the things that I shall teach you today, and may tell them to your fellow spirits who are from the unwavering race of the perfect Man."- Secret John

Christ came and spoke without parables. You wait for a "rapture" like the Jews wait for a "messiah".

Luke 17:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Non orthodox Gospel of Thomas says it better:
(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

Pauls 1 Corinth 13:9 says the same thing Thomas does.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Knowledge is knowledge. Some you have to seek where it is hidden.

1 Corinth:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Some seek from those who know, some seek from those who don't/didn't know.

The gnosis (knowledge) of Spirit is revealed in those who received it, not those who didn't.
Isn't the hidden wisdom essentially the occult?
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
Isn't the hidden wisdom essentially the occult?
By the definition of the word, yes. Paranormal beyond scientific understanding.

Science- the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

Science does not involve the spiritual, and uses the 5 senses to correlate to the mind physical and natural reality. The spiritual is within the paranormal definition. The mind understands it's existence, but since it isn't detected by 5 senses, it is questioned.

Lots of "if's" to consider. If Jesus was able to make blind men see, how does one explain it? If Jesus was able to appear after he died, if science cannot explain it, who then? It's easy to say "it just didn't happen". But how can things that never happened be so strongly believed from day one to 2000 years later?

There is no proof it does or doesn't exist. It's a choice. Spiritual intervention or luck and coincidence. Science cannot explain either. So it is unexplained, paranormal, occult.
 

outlawState

Deism is dead
Christ came a second time already.
This sounds like heresy.

2Ti 2:16
Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
2Ti 2:17
Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
Ti 2:18
who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
 
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