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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Hey Hockeycowboy, have you seen those verses in the original unadulterated language?

This is where man didn't say "Here is what God is saying" and then re-write scripture for us "dummies". There is a close to original version out there still for those who can think for themselves which according to John is all of us. 1 John 2:27 The word is written inside ALL our hearts whether old testament (death) or new testament (life). James 1:21 "Receive-ye the implanted saying (word) the-one being able to save the souls of you". Death (OT) is first as it strips away all outer flesh and releases our life and spirit within.

Death comes first.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit John 12:24

We all are God's "seed" (grain of wheat) and "fell into the earth (natural body itself which converts back to "earth"). When we die, we bear much fruit.

Check this verse out, it's so beautiful as it shows this process occurring now.

Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day 2 Cor 4:16

See how we are actually two being put together in one body. Outer man is dying while inner man is living and being renewed.

Here is what John 5:28-29 says according to the Westminster-Leningrad codex where each word was given one, single meaning and wasn't changed throughout all scripture to suit the writers preconceived beliefs.

No be-marveling this that is-coming hour in-which all the ones in the memorial-vaults shall-be-hearing the sound of him. John 5:28
And they-shall-be-outgoing the-ones the good doing into upstanding of life the-ones YET the fowl practicing into upstanding of judging John 5:29 (There is actual group called "yet" that practice fowl, these "live" and carry out the old testament on mankind now.)

This chapter and verse can be found here.

Please check out John 5:29. It says "the ones doing good". Where do they HAVE to be when they "do good"? Answer: In the MEMORIAL vaults. They (ones doing good) shall be out-going into upstanding of life whereas the ones YET will not go into life but into judgment. YET do not have life but will be alive in death. In God's eyes ALL are alive to him whether we call them "alive" or "dead".

Now he is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for all are alive to him." Luke 20:38 (God doesn't see the dead as "dead" but as living because he sees both sides of "life" and "death" as one. This "duality" that man sees is created by a "sea" and when Jesus crosses over to the "other side" to visit the memorial vaults, he is crossing over the divider of and one of the containers of death. This is why Revelations 20:13 says "the sea will give up its dead")

So, are you alive now? Could your body NOW be a "memorial vault" or a prison for your spirit being? Are you able to escape it without "passing over" or "passing through" death?

Consider this that Romans 11:32 says "ALL have been bound into a PRISON of disobedience (body - memorial vault) so he could have mercy upon ALL".

I am convinced this prison is our current body and natural mind of darkness that can not see the spiritual "unseen" things all around us now. The beautiful thing is that if we can go through this body/life without judging (ourselves and others) we are truly free. Matt 7:1-2.

Blessings...
Interesting perspective. But I believe the Scriptures were not meant to be ambiguous, about life's questions.

As Jehovah God told Adam after he'd sinned, "You will return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are, and to dust you will return. -- Genesis 3:19

And we don't have souls, we are souls. -- Genesis 2:7

Souls die (Ezekiel 18:4), they (we) are not immortal. That belief comes from pagan Greek teachings, from Plato and others.

The only hope for future life, is when the Resurrection begins.

For now, our dead loved ones are "aware of nothing / know not anything / conscious of nothing at all." -- Ecclesiastes 9:5.

When we die, our "thoughts perish." -- Psalms 146:3-4

Until the Resurrection, in the Last Day. -- John 6:44
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
There are thousands of documented NDE's. Most can be explained away in one way or another, many cannot. There are reports of experiences where what is reported could not have been known by the person reporting them. There are very serious scientists and physicians researching the phenomena, and most are convinced that consciousness survives in some form, after death. Is it temporary or permanent ? They have no conclusions.

I'm not really sold on NDEs as reliable evidence there is any type of identifiable self that is retained indefinitely. It's interesting in respect as to how the brain works and adapts to trauma, or the process of dying, but that's where it ends as it stands presently.

Our personality/ego, or our sense of self by way of identity is effectively destroyed upon death. It's the only aspect of being that I think truly and really dies.

I don't think life ends however with the end of our personality and self recognition, it's just that when "I" dies, it will be an entirely new "I" that will merge with no recollection or identity with any former existence at all.

The ego is effectively severed by reason that most of us when we're born, there have no recollection of any past lives at the onset. The mind of a baby is completely a blank sheet as far as I can tell. In fact, even as we're alive many of our memories as an infant and toddler are gone forever. We have no recollection as well as much of our original physiology is gone forever as we are not the child that we were from the start with the exception of a few key cells that remain with us through much or if not all of our lives.

Recollections I think are likely suggestive when people do talk about and identify with a former self that they feel they are linked with.

I'm more privy to a type of "rebirth" where atoms or a type of matter that enables the "lights to come on" is a persistent phenomena under the right circumstances and conditions. I think life is cyclic there is a true real death but at the same time there is something in the universe somewhere that causes the lights to come on as evidenced by our own experience when we became alive. I think it's a recurrent phenomena and one that gets to be experienced again and again but through different sets of eyes and minds.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
The question you ask only makes sense if there is a 'someone', ie; a 'self', that lives and dies.

I say there is no such 'someone'; that what we refer to as 'you' and 'I' are illusions, and the life we live is a fiction. This is not to say there is not a true Reality, but that true Reality is not what we think it to be, and we are not who we think we are.

If you can honestly answer the following question, I can proceed to answer yours:


Q: 'Who, or what, is it that lives? Who, or what, is it that dies?
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Interesting perspective. But I believe the Scriptures were not meant to be ambiguous, about life's questions.

As Jehovah God told Adam after he'd sinned, "You will return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are, and to dust you will return. -- Genesis 3:19

And we don't have souls, we are souls. -- Genesis 2:7

Souls die (Ezekiel 18:4), they (we) are not immortal. That belief comes from pagan Greek teachings, from Plato and others.

The only hope for future life, is when the Resurrection begins.

For now, our dead loved ones are "aware of nothing / know not anything / conscious of nothing at all." -- Ecclesiastes 9:5.

When we die, our "thoughts perish." -- Psalms 146:3-4

Until the Resurrection, in the Last Day. -- John 6:44


It seems like your saying one things and then saying another thing.

The body of flesh and blood dies,
The spirit within your body does not die.
The spirit returns back to God. Therefore your love ones are with God. And not in some hole in the ground. The body of flesh and blood is in the hole in the ground, to decay into nothing but dust.

What Psalm 146:3-4, is speaking about, your body of flesh and blood returns back to the earth, and your spirit returns back to God and your thoughts of this world perish.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
I'm not really sold on NDEs as reliable evidence there is any type of identifiable self that is retained indefinitely. It's interesting in respect as to how the brain works and adapts to trauma, or the process of dying, but that's where it ends as it stands presently.

Our personality/ego, or our sense of self by way of identity is effectively destroyed upon death. It's the only aspect of being that I think truly and really dies.

I don't think life ends however with the end of our personality and self recognition, it's just that when "I" dies, it will be an entirely new "I" that will merge with no recollection or identity with any former existence at all.

The ego is effectively severed by reason that most of us when we're born, there have no recollection of any past lives at the onset. The mind of a baby is completely a blank sheet as far as I can tell. In fact, even as we're alive many of our memories as an infant and toddler are gone forever. We have no recollection as well as much of our original physiology is gone forever as we are not the child that we were from the start with the exception of a few key cells that remain with us through much or if not all of our lives.

Recollections I think are likely suggestive when people do talk about and identify with a former self that they feel they are linked with.

I'm more privy to a type of "rebirth" where atoms or a type of matter that enables the "lights to come on" is a persistent phenomena under the right circumstances and conditions. I think life is cyclic there is a true real death but at the same time there is something in the universe somewhere that causes the lights to come on as evidenced by our own experience when we became alive. I think it's a recurrent phenomena and one that gets to be experienced again and again but through different sets of eyes and minds.


Your right about NDE, but if there were someone who was dead for a week or more.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Just wanted to say thank you for the feedback yesterday on my video about religion.

My question for you guys is, do you believe there is life after death? If yes, tell me why. And if no, tell me why as well but explain to me on how you deal with knowing there is just this life and no other.

Once I stopped eating and drinking [because my guru left his body]. After quite a while I went through a tunnel of light. In the end I saw my guru. He did not judge me not eating, but told me "If you don't eat, you go into a coma". Just some common sense information like He always did. And then He just kicked me back onto earth. I was really almost gone. Being scientist I first checked my bloodsugar. Was 1.0 (had the meter closeby luckily). Meaning very low (below 2.3 coma starts). I was too weak to move. For like 30min I went in/out coma. Then I thought, my guru did give me a change to rethink this accidental 1 way road I got myself into. Finally I managed to crawl into the kitchen and eat soms sugars. And was back on earth. That was a close encounter with death.

So I can't tell you if there is life after death. But the journey through the tunnel was marvellous. And for me this is the most comfortable way to make my final trip, once it's my time. For me, after this experience, no fear to die. What it will be, after going all the way, I don't know, but if the final journey is that beautiful, I don't worry about what life is after death.

I did tell God afterwards "I am fed up with all my physical pain. So if I get this much pain again, then I know how to quickly get out of it". Since that day my pain is gone. So it's not in my planning to do an investigation "in the afterlife" pretty soon. And when I do, I pretty much know now, out of experience, I won't be back to tell you how it was.....unless ... miracles do happen...

Normally I am quite rational. I don't remember my previous life. So "God" created it that way not to remember a previous life. Does not make much sense to me to know about next life, or life after death. If it's in the grand scheme of life "NOT to remember". Probably a riddle we never can solve. And for sure not with our mind. Same as "God". You believe or you don't believe.

Being practical, the best way to find out is, by stop eating and drinking, and I think pray a lot, and make sure God knows your desire is to be there for a very little while. Cross your fingers. And 50% change. you come back and can share it, or not. I am quite practical. Of course I will try this one out, but not today. I try it out when I am completely fed up with this world. My last and most interesting (because then it's for real) scientific research.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I'm not really sold on NDEs as reliable evidence there is any type of identifiable self that is retained indefinitely. It's interesting in respect as to how the brain works and adapts to trauma, or the process of dying, but that's where it ends as it stands presently.

Our personality/ego, or our sense of self by way of identity is effectively destroyed upon death. It's the only aspect of being that I think truly and really dies.

I don't think life ends however with the end of our personality and self recognition, it's just that when "I" dies, it will be an entirely new "I" that will merge with no recollection or identity with any former existence at all.

The ego is effectively severed by reason that most of us when we're born, there have no recollection of any past lives at the onset. The mind of a baby is completely a blank sheet as far as I can tell. In fact, even as we're alive many of our memories as an infant and toddler are gone forever. We have no recollection as well as much of our original physiology is gone forever as we are not the child that we were from the start with the exception of a few key cells that remain with us through much or if not all of our lives.

Recollections I think are likely suggestive when people do talk about and identify with a former self that they feel they are linked with.

I'm more privy to a type of "rebirth" where atoms or a type of matter that enables the "lights to come on" is a persistent phenomena under the right circumstances and conditions. I think life is cyclic there is a true real death but at the same time there is something in the universe somewhere that causes the lights to come on as evidenced by our own experience when we became alive. I think it's a recurrent phenomena and one that gets to be experienced again and again but through different sets of eyes and minds.
the issue of NDE's, there is a theory that the brain at the point of death produces chemical combinations that make death much more palatable to the one dying.

However, there have been a number of cases where the perons returning have information that is completely impossible for them to have obtained.

The one that stands out for me is the case of a man who clinically died in a hospital, and returned s number of minutes later. He reported leaving his body and winding up in a lab, where he overheard the conversation between two employees. He repeated the conversation he heard, and described the lab in great detail, including detailed info on the employees, names he said he read on their name tags, and their clothing. A physician NDE researcher was called, who did an exhaustive investigation. He learned that the patient had never been to this lab, it was restricted to employees only, with no patient services being done there. It was far removed from the patients room.There was no connection between the employee's and the patient and they had never come across one another. The employees did not go onto the patient care units as part of their job. The conversation of the two employee's on the date and time of the death was verified by them,. Their names were verified. Their clothing description on that day was verified. All the objects in the lab the patient described were present, as well as where they were placed in the room. Iron clad, and a lot of food for thought.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Just wanted to say thank you for the feedback yesterday on my video about religion.

My question for you guys is, do you believe there is life after death? If yes, tell me why. And if no, tell me why as well but explain to me on how you deal with knowing there is just this life and no other.
I'm counting on it. I see this life and reality as just a projection that has a basis in something outside of the projection.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Life is biochemistry and nothing else.
Therefore the statement is only biochemistry and nothing else. It's meaningless biochemistry it's just a mechanical action reaction to action reaction to action reaction infinitely. That's all... it isn't reasoned it isn't smart not is it self aware even.It's just an organic robot is all it is..
There's an excellent reason why evolution might produce intelligent, insightful beings who interpret and assign meanings, and have mirror neurons to let them be compassionate ─ namely, those qualities can be vital to survival and breeding.

If you feel you're a robot, that's up to you. If you don't feel you're a robot, it shows you how humans have evolved to be.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There's an excellent reason why evolution might produce intelligent, insightful beings who interpret and assign meanings, and have mirror neurons to let them be compassionate ─ those qualities can be vital to survival and breeding.

If you feel you're a robot, that's up to you. If you don't feel you're a robot, it shows you how humans have evolved to be.
cartoon6045.png
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
It seems like your saying one things and then saying another thing.

The body of flesh and blood dies,
The spirit within your body does not die.
The spirit returns back to God. Therefore your love ones are with God. And not in some hole in the ground. The body of flesh and blood is in the hole in the ground, to decay into nothing but dust.

What Psalm 146:3-4, is speaking about, your body of flesh and blood returns back to the earth, and your spirit returns back to God and your thoughts of this world perish.
Believing this, although common, nullifies the teaching of the Resurrection. If true, then there's no need to "come back to life", if a person is still alive, somewhere.

God told Adam, "you will return to the ground".... He didn't say Adam's body; rather, the person.

Acts of the Apostles 7:60 says about Stephen, "he fell asleep in death."

Where do you think Lazarus was for 4 days? Nowhere. He was dead in the tomb, but Jesus brought him back to life! -- John 11:11-14 ; John 11:38-44
 
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Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Believing this, although common, nullifies the teaching of the Resurrection. If true, then there's no need to "come back to life", if a person is still alive, somewhere.

God told Adam, "you will return to the ground".... He didn't say Adam's body; rather, the person.

Acts of the Apostles 7:60 says about Stephen, "he fell asleep in death."

Where do you think Lazarus was for 4 days? Nowhere. He was dead in the tomb, but Jesus brought him back to life! -- John 11:11-14 ; John 11:38-44

Adams body of flesh and blood is what died, but the breath of life that God breathed into Adam, does not die, but returns back to God. This being the spirit of Adam, which does not die.

Yes, Stephens body of flesh and blood fell asleep in death. But Stephens spirit does not die, but returns back to God.

Lazarus body of flesh and blood was in the tomb, but the spirit of Lazarus was not in the tomb. But returned back to God, and when Jesus called out to Lazarus to come forth out of the tomb, the spirit of life returned back to Lazarus.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Adams body of flesh and blood is what died, but the breath of life that God breathed into Adam, does not die, but returns back to God. This being the spirit of Adam, which does not die.

Yes, Stephens body of flesh and blood fell asleep in death. But Stephens spirit does not die, but returns back to God.

Lazarus body of flesh and blood was in the tomb, but the spirit of Lazarus was not in the tomb. But returned back to God, and when Jesus called out to Lazarus to come forth out of the tomb, the spirit of life returned back to Lazarus.
You are attributing a personality to 'spirit'? In Hebrew, spirit is 'rū*ach (rū*hōw' in vs.4 meaning 'his breath') [source: Psalm 146 Interlinear Bible] ; it simply means breath, nothing more.

"The Greek word pneuma (as in pneumonia, a breathing disease) means breath or wind – the movement of air. In other Bible translations, this word is often translated as spirit or ghost, as in Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost. However, spirit is just a shortened form of the Latin word spiritu, which once again just means breath in Latin. And ghostconveys another meaning altogether.

In the Bible, the most common use of the word pneuma is to convey the idea of a force that can’t be seen, such as breath or wind. And the problem with translating it as spirit or ghost, as is done in other Bibles, is that those words have been given religious meanings that aren’t really implied by the Greek texts.

Therefore, to prevent confusion, the Greek word pneuma is frequently translated herein as breath and occasionally as wind. However, there are many exceptions, as in instances where the Bible refers to demons as ‘spirits.’ Translating pneuma as breath in these cases, although correct, might just be confusing. So, there are several places where we have left pneuma translated as spirit, since that English word has taken on a meaning of its own.

For example; there are instances where the word pneuma is speaking of a person’s motivation (the spirit of why we do something). Therefore, we have translated pneuma as spirit in such locations, as we have also done in several places that speak of God’s Holy Spirit, where readers will better understand the meaning in Modern English.

Nevertheless, rendering it as [God’s] Holy Breath (which we have done in other places) is really more accurate and a clarification. For an example, see the Note, ‘Worshiping God In Spirit and Truth.’

Another important use of the word pneuma is in the phrase, ‘Breath of Life.’ This term appears to mean more than just breathing, for it seems to refer to the entire mechanics of life itself. It’s the unseen force of life within all living creatures and it’s what makes each cell alive.

However, nowhere does the Bible describe the ‘pneuma’ as immortal, nor is it the same as the soul (a breathing thing); so, it can (figuratively) return to the God who gave it when someone dies, because all hope of future life depends on God and His promise of a resurrection.

Note in particular how the term pneuma is found in the Greek Septuagint text at Job 27:3, where Job was speaking of God’s Breath or Spirit. For there he asked:
‘Does the Breath of the Divine One remain in my nose?’

As you can see from his application of this word, pneuma obviously referred to God’s Breath, not Holy Spirit, for he was clearly talking about that which comes from God and which caused him (Job) to breathe… the Breath of Life.

It is interesting that at Genesis 6:3, God said concerning the wicked people on earth before the Downpour:
‘I won’t allow My Breath to stay with these men through the age, for they are fleshly.’

In Greek, that reads:
‘Ou me katameine to pneuma mou en tois anthropois toutoiseis ton aiona, dia ai einai autous sarka,’
or,
‘Not not should stay the Breath Mine with these men the age through, their being flesh.’

Notice that most other Bibles translate the word pneuma as Spirit here. Yet, while the words Breath Mine (pneuma mou) could possibly refer to God’s Holy Breath, it seems more likely that He was really referring to the breath of life that He gave to Adam, since the wicked people of that age didn’t demonstrate that they had the Breath or Spirit of God. And from this, it appears as though what God was saying is that the breath of life of the people of that age would be removed prematurely, or that they would die.

However, since God referred to it as ‘My Breath;’ note that there may be a link implied between God’s Holy Breath and the breath of life. For more information, see the linked document, ‘The Powers of God’s Holy Spirit.’

You can see how rendering the word pneuma as breath can clarify the meaning of a Bible verse in the instance found at John 19:30. For it says there concerning the death of Jesus (in Greek):
‘kai klinas ten kephalen paredoken to pneuma,’
or,
‘and inclined his head giving/up the breath.’

So, rather than saying that Jesus gave up his spirit (which is how it is rendered in other Bibles), implying that Jesus then went to God (which he didn’t, because the Bible tells us that he didn’t go there until forty days later), the obvious reference here is to his giving up ‘the breath of life,’ or the force that maintained Jesus’ life as a human."

http://www.2001translation.com/NOTES.htm#_30
 

Aiviu

Active Member
Just wanted to say thank you for the feedback yesterday on my video about religion.

My question for you guys is, do you believe there is life after death? If yes, tell me why. And if no, tell me why as well but explain to me on how you deal with knowing there is just this life and no other.

Do i believe?
Hmm, i am just able to hope that there is after life. Even if i got enough evidence from my spiritual point of view. In materialistic words: There is never any clear evidence. As if the evidence assured itself that i am keep looking at it through a cloud. In some way i am convinced about that - so i'd say 'yes'. I just take it for granted that there is an after life. Probably not for me if i suck at this life but for all others there is the possibilty of taking part in this life therefore in the after too. IMO it depends anyone to live the right way. A Belief in an only imageable fact as in love, a heart, or God is a sign of a only imaginable after life which then could be possible as it wears the same sign 'imagination".

So from here anything that doesnt exists clear to me but is imaginable will exists in the after life because both of them is imaginable.

How do i deal?
Not to desire an after life for myself, just not to stop living the right way. If I want to live in the after life i do not live here in the right way, that means i'd contradict the life in the after life. Its the best for me to reduce my Belief or my knowing, my taking for granted, to a uncertain hope its imaginable.
 
If this story is true, then shame on those people for manipulating a grieving person this way. I hope they didn’t charge you money for this.
How on earth have I been manipulated? Don`t think you understood. The first group I was told really appreciated cake so I bought some and took it along. The second person refused my offer of payment and asked I make a donation to any charity of my choosing if I so wished.
 
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