• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is God Omniscient as people say?

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Is God Omniscient as people are being taught in the churches that God is Omniscient, When there is no where in the Bible that makes this claim?

Let's take the book of 1st John 3:20--"For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things"

At first reading this, a person can be lead to believe, that God is omniscient of knowing all things.

But is this actually what it's saying?

In 1st John chapter 3, is speaking about the heart, God knows all things of the heart, Whether it is good or bad intentions.

God searches the heart to see whether it has good intentions or bad intentions.

Then when a person acts upon the intention of their heart, then it becomes evidence that their intention of their heart was either good or bad intentions.

Does this mean, that God knew beforehand what their intention was, No.

What it means, is that God does not know, only until it's revealed in a person heart, What their true intentions are.

Then when a person acts upon their intention of their heart, Then it has come to its fullest discloser of their intention of their heart is.

But until it comes into a person heart, there's no way of knowing whether their intentions are good or bad. It all starts in the heart first.
Only God can know what's in the heart, whether there will be found good intentions or bad intentions.

It's like a person who goes thru life thinking no bad thoughts, Until one day, bad thoughts start to enter their heart.
Now it's starting in their heart.

Now that person has the choice, to either cast it off or follow it thru.to it's fullest discloser on the outside.

So does God know beforehand, what a person is going to do ?

No, only until it's found in their heart, Then God knows their intention of their heart, Whether it's good or bad.

If a person walks around hateing, Then it's in their heart to hate, So God searches the intention of their heart is to hate.
So everything starts in the heart first, Then when the hate has over taken their heart, Then the hate starts to show its fullest discloser on the outside, This is when things really start to happen.

So is God Omniscient, As in knowing all things beforehand, No, not until, good or bad intentions are found in the heart. Then God see into the heart, to know what exactly are the intentions of the heart. Whether they are bad or good intentions.
Let's take the book of Ezekiel 28:15, for a good example.
"You was perfect in your ways from the day that you was created, till iniquity was found in you"

As you can see, God did not know that Lucifer had any iniquity in him, Till Iniquity was found in him, his heart.
So how is God Omniscient ?
As people say?
 
Last edited:

Axe Elf

Prophet
My God is omniscient because that is how I have chosen to define Him, axiomatically.

Any being that 1) does not exist, 2) is not omnipotent, 3) is not omniscient, 4) is not omnipresent, or 5) is not omnibenevolent, is not God to me. If no omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent being exists, then my God does not exist.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Is God Omniscient as people are being taught in the churches that God is Omniscient, When there is no where in the Bible that makes this claim?

Let's take the book of 1st John 3:20--"For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things"

At first reading this, a person can be lead to believe, that God is omniscient of knowing all things.

But is this actually what it's saying?

In 1st John chapter 3, is speaking about the heart, God knows all things of the heart, Whether it is good or bad intentions.

God searches the heart to see whether it has good intentions or bad intentions.

Then when a person acts upon the intention of their heart, then it becomes evidence that their intention of their heart was either good or bad intentions.

Does this mean, that God knew beforehand what their intention was, No.

What it means, is that God does not know, only until it's revealed in a person heart, What their true intentions are.

Then when a person acts upon their intention of their heart, Then it has come to its fullest discloser of their intention of their heart is.

But until it comes into a person heart, there's no way of knowing whether their intentions are good or bad. It all starts in the heart first.
Only God can know what's in the heart, whether there will be found good intentions or bad intentions.

It's like a person who goes thru life thinking no bad thoughts, Until one day, bad thoughts start to enter their heart.
Now it's starting in their heart.

Now that person has the choice, to either cast it off or follow it thru.to it's fullest discloser on the outside.

So does God know beforehand, what a person is going to do ?

No, only until it's found in their heart, Then God knows their intention of their heart, Whether it's good or bad.

If a person walks around hateing, Then it's in their heart to hate, So God searches the intention of their heart is to hate.
So everything starts in the heart first, Then when the hate has over taken their heart, Then the hate starts to show its fullest discloser on the outside, This is when things really start to happen.

So is God Omniscient, As in knowing all things beforehand, No, not until, good or bad intentions are found in the heart. Then God see into the heart, to know what exactly are the intentions of the heart. Whether they are bad or good intentions.
Let's take the book of Ezekiel 28:15, for a good example.
"You was perfect in your ways from the day that you was created, till iniquity was found in you"

As you can see, God did not know that Lucifer had any iniquity in him, Till Iniquity was found in him, his heart.
So how is God Omniscient ?
As people say?

Unless god can predict the future, the idea is the action and intention doesnt exist for god to know about until the action is made and intent thought of. God cannot know what has not come into being yet.

Maybe the question isnt is god all-knowing but does god know what you will say or do before you do it. Is he psychic. He cant know something that doesnt exist. But, as god, Id assume he can make an educated guess.

But to know this is really to look at the context and relationship a person has with god. If you look to the bible for answers, thats like trying to see if my parent loves me by reading their memoir. Yes, its personal but if I want to know my parent, Id have a relationship with my parent.

Same as god. How do you know he is all knowing by interpretation from what others wrote? I mean, memoirs are cool but if you thought about it logically, if god is all knowing, being god and all, something would have to exist for him to know about it.

Dont know if god is psychic. Being god, he could be, say, and do anything. Even change the bible.

What has god told you about him being all knowing?

Thats more my question. Scripture is fine but relationships lend for better knowledge and experience to these questions people look to the bible for answers and not literally god himself.
 
Last edited:

Axe Elf

Prophet
Unless god can predict the future, the idea is the action and intention doesnt exist for god to know about until the action is made and intent thought of. God cannot know what has not come into being yet.

Maybe the question isnt is god all-knowing but does god know what you will say or do before you do it. Is he psychic. He cant know something that doesnt exist. But, as god, Id assume he can make an educated guess.

Your comments imply that God is trapped in the time stream that He created Himself, along with all the rest of creation; able to only look backwards on what has happened, but unable to see what has yet to happen.

Since we know from Einstein (among others) that time and space are not actually two different things, but rather two manifestations of the same thing (spacetime), we must accept that if God created all of space, He also created all of time with it--every moment structured by God just as deliberately as every millimeter. This is why God knows how everything in spacetime will unfold--because He created it in the first place (and parenthetically, this is also why free will cannot exist).
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Hmm.
Your comments imply that God is trapped in the time stream that He created Himself, along with all the rest of creation; able to only look backwards on what has happened, but unable to see what has yet to happen.

Dont know the first part, but if god can see what happens before it happens, then a christians life must be predetermined. Which I find hard to believe unless god let people disobey him, in order to kill people for disobeying yet knew they would to begin with. Or letting Abram plea with god not to burn the whole town when god knew which make the plea a waste of breath.

I see no issue with god not knowing. It doesnt make him less of a god. It does give humans a reason to love him though. I mean, obeying is fine for some but I know if someone knew my prayers before my saying it, its not a prayer from Me.

Since we know from Einstein (among others) that time and space are not actually two different things, but rather two manifestations of the same thing (spacetime), we must accept that if God created all of space, He also created all of time with it--every moment structured by God just as deliberately as every millimeter. This is why God knows how everything in spacetime will unfold--because He created it in the first place (and parenthetically, this is also why free will cannot exist).

How do you know this outside of the bible?

I dont take all books as facts but if you told me how it relates to the world we know, it sounds more realistic especially since I wasnt born when jesus was around.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@Axe Elf

I mean, you can define god as anything or anyone. If what I believe is called god, god wouldnt be all knowing etc becauae that is not its nature. Its not a being because god is in all and is all. So, basically, youre a part or god and god is apart of you. Its more personal because you are interacting in god like being in your loved ones arms rather than having faith they love you from afar.

One doesnt need to be all knowing to be god, not the god of my understanding.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Is God Omniscient as people are being taught in the churches that God is Omniscient, When there is no where in the Bible that makes this claim?

Let's take the book of 1st John 3:20--"For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things"

At first reading this, a person can be lead to believe, that God is omniscient of knowing all things.

But is this actually what it's saying?

In 1st John chapter 3, is speaking about the heart, God knows all things of the heart, Whether it is good or bad intentions.

God searches the heart to see whether it has good intentions or bad intentions.

Then when a person acts upon the intention of their heart, then it becomes evidence that their intention of their heart was either good or bad intentions.

Does this mean, that God knew beforehand what their intention was, No.

What it means, is that God does not know, only until it's revealed in a person heart, What their true intentions are.

Then when a person acts upon their intention of their heart, Then it has come to its fullest discloser of their intention of their heart is.

But until it comes into a person heart, there's no way of knowing whether their intentions are good or bad. It all starts in the heart first.
Only God can know what's in the heart, whether there will be found good intentions or bad intentions.

It's like a person who goes thru life thinking no bad thoughts, Until one day, bad thoughts start to enter their heart.
Now it's starting in their heart.

Now that person has the choice, to either cast it off or follow it thru.to it's fullest discloser on the outside.

So does God know beforehand, what a person is going to do ?

No, only until it's found in their heart, Then God knows their intention of their heart, Whether it's good or bad.

If a person walks around hateing, Then it's in their heart to hate, So God searches the intention of their heart is to hate.
So everything starts in the heart first, Then when the hate has over taken their heart, Then the hate starts to show its fullest discloser on the outside, This is when things really start to happen.

So is God Omniscient, As in knowing all things beforehand, No, not until, good or bad intentions are found in the heart. Then God see into the heart, to know what exactly are the intentions of the heart. Whether they are bad or good intentions.
Let's take the book of Ezekiel 28:15, for a good example.
"You was perfect in your ways from the day that you was created, till iniquity was found in you"

As you can see, God did not know that Lucifer had any iniquity in him, Till Iniquity was found in him, his heart.
So how is God Omniscient ?
As people say?
Luke 12:7
Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
Dont know the first part, but if god can see what happens before it happens, then a christians life must be predetermined.

DING DING DING DING DING!!!

We have a winner!

You'll notice I said:
This is why God knows how everything in spacetime will unfold--because He created it in the first place (and parenthetically, this is also why free will cannot exist).


Which I find hard to believe unless god let people disobey him, in order to kill people for disobeying yet knew they would to begin with. Or letting Abram plea with god not to burn the whole town when god knew which make the plea a waste of breath.

"Letting" people do these things? My dear, predestination does not mean God LETS anyone do anything--predestination means that God designed everything that everyone does. He doesn't LET them, He MAKES them.

I know this is a hard pill for human beings to swallow. After all, the temptation to want to be our own gods, to be in control of our own destinies under the illusion that we know what's best for ourselves better than our Creator does, is the original sin that got us kicked out of the Garden (and also what got Satan kicked out of heaven) in the first place. But we are not in control; God is.

I see no issue with god not knowing. It doesnt make him less of a god. It does give humans a reason to love him though. I mean, obeying is fine for some but I know if someone knew my prayers before my saying it, its not a prayer from Me.

Well, you can define God the way you like, but I will stick to the omni-God. It's really kind of comforting, knowing that we live in the best of all possible universes, because a God Who would want to create the best of all possible universes, Who would know how to create the best of all possible universes, and Who would have the power to create the best of all possible universes is in control.

As for having a "reason" to love God, that's just silly from the perspective of predestination; either you were created to love God, or you weren't. As for knowing your prayers, if you're praying some version of "MY will be done" instead of "THY will be done," then you've been predestined to do it wrong, anyway.

How do you know this outside of the bible?

If you are asking how I know that Einstein and others have demonstrated that space and time are just two manifestations of the same thing, outside of the Bible, Wikipedia has a good article on "spacetime."

If you're asking how I know that God created spacetime, outside of the Bible, well, of course I don't--but the Christian God is assumed for the purposes of this discussion, and the OP cites Biblical scripture as evidence in their arguments. I don't need to prove the validity of the Bible to respond in kind, and if the Bible can be referenced, then it is stipulated that God created the universe; i.e., spacetime.

I dont take all books as facts but if you told me how it relates to the world we know, it sounds more realistic especially since I wasnt born when jesus was around.

Since I can reference the Bible, I will direct you to its words for explanations regarding how predestination relates to the world we know:

Since a man's days are already determined, and the number of his months is wholly in Your control, and he cannot pass the bounds of his allotted time --Job 14:5

Blessed (happy, fortunate, to be envied) is the man whom You choose and cause to come near, that he may dwell in Your courts! --Psalm 65:4a

Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them. --Psalm 139:16

The Lord has made everything [to accommodate itself and contribute] to its own end and His own purpose--even the wicked [are fitted for their role] for the day of calamity and evil. --Proverbs 16:4

A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps and makes them sure. --Proverbs 16:9

The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is wholly of the Lord [even the events that seem accidental are really ordered by Him]. --Proverbs 16:33

Many plans are in a man's mind, but it is the Lord's purpose for him that will stand. --Proverbs 19:21

Man's steps are ordered by the Lord. How then can a man understand his way? --Proverbs 20:24

The King’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as are the watercourses; He turns it whichever way He wills. --Proverbs 21:1

Before I formed you in the womb I knew [and] approved of you [as My chosen instrument], and before you were born I separated and set you apart, consecrating you; [and] I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. --Jeremiah 1:5

O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps. --Jeremiah 10:23

All whom My Father gives (entrusts) to Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, no never, reject one of them who comes to Me]. --John 6:37

No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day. --John 6:44

And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father. --John 6:65

This Jesus, when delivered up according to the definite and fixed purpose and settled plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and put out of the way [killing Him] by the hands of lawless and wicked men. --Acts 2:23

For in this city there actually met and plotted together against Your holy Child and Servant Jesus, Whom You consecrated by anointing, both Herod and Pontius Pilate with the Gentiles and peoples of Israel, to carry out all that Your hand and Your will and purpose had predestined (predetermined) should occur. --Acts 4:27-28

And when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified (praised and gave thanks for) the Word of God; and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior). --Acts 13:48

And He made from one [common origin, one source, one blood] all nations of men to settle on the face of the earth, having definitely determined [their] allotted periods of time and the fixed boundaries of their habitation (their settlements, lands, and abodes), --Acts 17:26

(continued below...)
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
Further...

For I do not understand my own actions [I am baffled, bewildered]. I do not practice or accomplish what I wish, but I do the very thing that I loathe [which my moral instinct condemns]. Now if I do [habitually] what is contrary to my desire, [that means that] I acknowledge and agree that the Law is good (morally excellent) and that I take sides with it. However, it is no longer I who do the deed, but the sin [principle] which is at home in me and has possession of me. For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot perform it. [I have the intention and urge to do what is right, but no power to carry it out.] For I fail to practice the good deeds I desire to do, but the evil deeds that I do not desire to do are what I am [ever] doing. Now if I do what I do not desire to do, it is no longer I doing it [it is not myself that acts], but the sin [principle] which dwells within me [fixed and operating in my soul]. So I find it to be a law (rule of action of my being) that when I want to do what is right and good, evil is ever present with me and I am subject to its insistent demands. For I endorse and delight in the Law of God in my inmost self [with my new nature]. But I discern in my bodily members [in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh] a different law (rule of action) at war against the law of my mind (my reason) and making me a prisoner to the law of sin that dwells in my bodily organs [in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh]. O unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will release and deliver me from [the shackles of] this body of death? O thank God! [He will!] through Jesus Christ (the Anointed One) our Lord! So then indeed I, of myself with the mind and heart, serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. --Romans 7:15-25

We are assured and know that [God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose. For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren. And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being]. --Romans 8:28-30

And not only that, but this too: Rebecca conceived [two sons under exactly the same circumstances] by our forefather Isaac, and the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God's purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them], it was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob). What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion. So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use? --Romans 9:10-21

What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [God's favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it). As it is written, God gave them a spirit (an attitude) of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, [that has continued] down to this very day. --Romans 11:7-8

But when He, Who had chosen and set me apart [even] before I was born and had called me by His grace (His undeserved favor and blessing), saw fit and was pleased --Galations 1:15

Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love. For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [because it pleased Him and was His kind intent] --Ephesians 1:4-5

[He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth. In Him we also were made [God's] heritage (portion) and we obtained an inheritance; for we had been foreordained (chosen and appointed beforehand) in accordance with His purpose, Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His [own] will, --Ephesians 1:10-11

For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live]. --Ephesians 2:10

[Not in your own strength] for it is God Who is all the while effectually at work in you [energizing and creating in you the power and desire], both to will and to work for His good pleasure and satisfaction and delight. --Phillippians 2:13

Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error and a strong delusion to make them believe what is false, in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness. But we, brethren beloved by the Lord, ought and are obligated [as those who are in debt] to give thanks always to God for you, because God chose you from the beginning as His firstfruits (first converts) for salvation through the sanctifying work of the [Holy] Spirit and [your] belief in (adherence to, trust in, and reliance on) the Truth. --2 Thessalonians 2:11-13

For [of course] every house is built and furnished by someone, but the Builder of all things and the Furnisher [of the entire equipment of all things] is God. --Hebrews 3:4

It is true that He was chosen and foreordained (destined and foreknown for it) before the foundation of the world, but He was brought out to public view (made manifest) in these last days (at the end of the times) for the sake of you. --1 Peter 1:20

And all the inhabitants of the earth will fall down in adoration and pay him homage, everyone whose name has not been recorded in the Book of Life of the Lamb that was slain [in sacrifice] from the foundation of the world. --Revelation 13:8

The beast that you saw [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is going to come up out of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and proceed to go to perdition. And the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been recorded in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they look at the beast, because he [once] was, but [now] is no more, and he is [yet] to come. --Revelation 17:8

(All citations are from the Amplified Bible.)
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
As you can see, God did not know that Lucifer had any iniquity in him, Till Iniquity was found in him, his heart.
So how is God Omniscient ?
As people say?

How does an 'angel' have a will apart from God or that God doesn't know already?

The Christian understanding of any angel being able to betray God is nonsense, since they only ever existed to serve his will. (Basically, they are an emanation of his will.)

From my perspective, it's even impossible for humans to 'betray' God in this manner as their very existence is a part and parcel to the divine.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Is God Omniscient as people are being taught in the churches that God is Omniscient, When there is no where in the Bible that makes this claim?
Not in the Tanakh. There Yahweh can't find Adam and Eve in the Garden, works out too late that the Flood was a bad idea, gets dickered down to ten righteous by Abraham in the run-up to the Sodom show, doesn't realize in time that he can't beat iron chariots, and so on.

So it seems to be a fanciful invention of them Greek-speakin' folks what wrote the NT.
Let's take the book of 1st John 3:20--"For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things"
Jesus didn't know enough about germ theory to wash his hands before dinner, but then, he never pretended to be God.
Let's take the book of Ezekiel 28:15, for a good example.
"You was perfect in your ways from the day that you was created, till iniquity was found in you"

As you can see, God did not know that Lucifer had any iniquity in him, Till Iniquity was found in him, his heart.
Ezekiel says he's talking about the king of Tyre, not Lucifer. The name 'Lucifer' isn't found in the Tanakh.

(In Isaiah 14:4+ the unnamed 'king of Babylon' is taunted by saying he used to be the morning star ('Day Star, son of Dawn') but now he's overthrown. The Septuagint translates 'morning star' here (the planet Venus) as ἑωσφόρος (eosphoros 'bringer of morning'), which finds its way into the Vulgate as 'lucifer' ('bringer of light'), but none of that is about Satan of course.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
DING DING DING DING DING!!!

We have a winner!

You'll notice I said:





"Letting" people do these things? My dear, predestination does not mean God LETS anyone do anything--predestination means that God designed everything that everyone does. He doesn't LET them, He MAKES them.

I know this is a hard pill for human beings to swallow. After all, the temptation to want to be our own gods, to be in control of our own destinies under the illusion that we know what's best for ourselves better than our Creator does, is the original sin that got us kicked out of the Garden (and also what got Satan kicked out of heaven) in the first place. But we are not in control; God is.



Well, you can define God the way you like, but I will stick to the omni-God. It's really kind of comforting, knowing that we live in the best of all possible universes, because a God Who would want to create the best of all possible universes, Who would know how to create the best of all possible universes, and Who would have the power to create the best of all possible universes is in control.

As for having a "reason" to love God, that's just silly from the perspective of predestination; either you were created to love God, or you weren't. As for knowing your prayers, if you're praying some version of "MY will be done" instead of "THY will be done," then you've been predestined to do it wrong, anyway.



If you are asking how I know that Einstein and others have demonstrated that space and time are just two manifestations of the same thing, outside of the Bible, Wikipedia has a good article on "spacetime."

If you're asking how I know that God created spacetime, outside of the Bible, well, of course I don't--but the Christian God is assumed for the purposes of this discussion, and the OP cites Biblical scripture as evidence in their arguments. I don't need to prove the validity of the Bible to respond in kind, and if the Bible can be referenced, then it is stipulated that God created the universe; i.e., spacetime.



Since I can reference the Bible, I will direct you to its words for explanations regarding how predestination relates to the world we know:

Since a man's days are already determined, and the number of his months is wholly in Your control, and he cannot pass the bounds of his allotted time --Job 14:5

Blessed (happy, fortunate, to be envied) is the man whom You choose and cause to come near, that he may dwell in Your courts! --Psalm 65:4a

Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them. --Psalm 139:16

The Lord has made everything [to accommodate itself and contribute] to its own end and His own purpose--even the wicked [are fitted for their role] for the day of calamity and evil. --Proverbs 16:4

A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps and makes them sure. --Proverbs 16:9

The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is wholly of the Lord [even the events that seem accidental are really ordered by Him]. --Proverbs 16:33

Many plans are in a man's mind, but it is the Lord's purpose for him that will stand. --Proverbs 19:21

Man's steps are ordered by the Lord. How then can a man understand his way? --Proverbs 20:24

The King’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, as are the watercourses; He turns it whichever way He wills. --Proverbs 21:1

Before I formed you in the womb I knew [and] approved of you [as My chosen instrument], and before you were born I separated and set you apart, consecrating you; [and] I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. --Jeremiah 1:5

O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps. --Jeremiah 10:23

All whom My Father gives (entrusts) to Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, no never, reject one of them who comes to Me]. --John 6:37

No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day. --John 6:44

And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father. --John 6:65

This Jesus, when delivered up according to the definite and fixed purpose and settled plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and put out of the way [killing Him] by the hands of lawless and wicked men. --Acts 2:23

For in this city there actually met and plotted together against Your holy Child and Servant Jesus, Whom You consecrated by anointing, both Herod and Pontius Pilate with the Gentiles and peoples of Israel, to carry out all that Your hand and Your will and purpose had predestined (predetermined) should occur. --Acts 4:27-28

And when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified (praised and gave thanks for) the Word of God; and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior). --Acts 13:48

And He made from one [common origin, one source, one blood] all nations of men to settle on the face of the earth, having definitely determined [their] allotted periods of time and the fixed boundaries of their habitation (their settlements, lands, and abodes), --Acts 17:26

(continued below...)


I wanted to ask you (and all of you), why do you quote scrupture as a native language?

Scripture does not speak for itself.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
It was hard to find your comments. I dont use words of faith of any faith book for debate. Thats all christian.
Well, you can define God the way you like, but I will stick to the omni-God. It's really kind of comforting, knowing that we live in the best of all possible universes, because a God Who would want to create the best of all possible universes, Who would know how to create the best of all possible universes, and Who would have the power to create the best of all possible universes is in control.

Comforting doesnt equal fact. We can find comfort in any idea of god.

As for having a "reason" to love God, that's just silly from the perspective of predestination; either you were created to love God, or you weren't. As for knowing your prayers, if you're praying some version of "MY will be done" instead of "THY will be done," then you've been predestined to do it wrong, anyway.

Thats your faith. If god knows my prayers, there is nothing unique from Me that I would show and ask him. The relationship is one sided. This is going off the idea that god exists; he does not.

If you are asking how I know that Einstein and others have demonstrated that space and time are just two manifestations of the same thing, outside of the Bible,

No. If your relationship is a personal one with god, you shouldnt need a bible to know him directly. Einstein isnt god.

If you're asking how I know that God created spacetime, outside of the Bible, well, of course I don't--but the Christian God is assumed for the purposes of this discussion, and the OP cites Biblical scripture as evidence in their arguments. I don't need to prove the validity of the Bible to respond in kind, and if the Bible can be referenced, then it is stipulated that God created the universe; i.e., spacetime.

How is biblical scripture evidence for anything today? It was written so long ago that Im baffled anyone calls them anything but history of that day.

Since I can reference the Bible, I will direct you to its words for explanations regarding how predestination relates to the world

Please dont. I take your word for it. Im not a believer. I have nothing to disprove.

For I do not understand my own actions [I am baffled, bewildered]. I do not practice or accomplish what I wish, but I do the very thing that I loathe [which my moral instinct condemns]. Now if I do [habitually] what is contrary to my desire, [that means that] I acknowledge and agree that the Law is good (morally excellent) and that I take sides with it. H

Shrugs. If Im approach with something that does not let me understand by creativity, I dont do it. If I can use creative mediums to complete an action, I learn best by that so thats what I do. I dont need sny being or a god when I have my art. Everyone sees things differently.

God, how I see it, flows in oneself through your instincts. So, say you want to do X and the right thing is to do Y. You can either take a breathe and listen to god by instinct and awareness and prayer, or you can find your strength in the physical bible. I side with the former but not everyone feels the same. Everyone has instincts and moral voices. Some say its god others do not. Thats one reason I feel god doesnt exist. The same exact events and experiences means totally different things to more than one person. If its god, that same experience should signal god as a result for all people. Order of the universe doesnt equal god. You know how many gods fashioned the universe before monotheism came about? God is personal experience. How can it be all knowing when god is part or you? Are you all knowing.
 
Last edited:

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Dont know the first part, but if god can see what happens before it happens, then a christians life must be predetermined. Which I find hard to believe unless god let people disobey him, in order to kill people for disobeying yet knew they would to begin with. Or letting Abram plea with god not to burn the whole town when god knew which make the plea a waste of breath.

I see no issue with god not knowing. It doesnt make him less of a god. It does give humans a reason to love him though. I mean, obeying is fine for some but I know if someone knew my prayers before my saying it, its not a prayer from Me.

Hi Carlita, hope you are well.

Baha'u'llah has said;

"...Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence." (Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150)

Regards Tony
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Luke 12:7
Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

You really got to be kidding, there is no where in Luke 12:7, that says God is all knowing, your a good example how people will take God's word and twist it into what you wish it did say.

Just because the hairs of your head are numbered, does not mean God is all knowing.
It just means the hairs of your head are numbered that's all.
So I guess if someone numbered the hairs of someone's head, that they to would be all knowing also.
You can't be Serious.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
How does an 'angel' have a will apart from God or that God doesn't know already?

The Christian understanding of any angel being able to betray God is nonsense, since they only ever existed to serve his will. (Basically, they are an emanation of his will.)

From my perspective, it's even impossible for humans to 'betray' God in this manner as their very existence is a part and parcel to the divine.

First that wasn't just an angel as you suppose it is.
Lucifer was not the average angel.

Lucifer was a archangel which stood above all the other angels. An Archangel is the only one who stands before the Throne of God's.

Which No other angels had the Commission to do.
Like Gabriel and Michael the Archangels.
Which stands before the Throne of God's.

Which No other angels have the Commission to do.

So seeing Lucifer was a Archangel, Lucifer took it upon himself, That he wanted to be God. So Lucifer rebelled against God. And has been doing it ever since and still is.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Not in the Tanakh. There Yahweh can't find Adam and Eve in the Garden, works out too late that the Flood was a bad idea, gets dickered down to ten righteous by Abraham in the run-up to the Sodom show, doesn't realize in time that he can't beat iron chariots, and so on.

So it seems to be a fanciful invention of them Greek-speakin' folks what wrote the NT.
Jesus didn't know enough about germ theory to wash his hands before dinner, but then, he never pretended to be God.

Ezekiel says he's talking about the king of Tyre, not Lucifer. The name 'Lucifer' isn't found in the Tanakh.

(In Isaiah 14:4+ the unnamed 'king of Babylon' is taunted by saying he used to be the morning star ('Day Star, son of Dawn') but now he's overthrown. The Septuagint translates 'morning star' here (the planet Venus) as ἑωσφόρος (eosphoros 'bringer of morning'), which finds its way into the Vulgate as 'lucifer' ('bringer of light'), but none of that is about Satan of course.


Look, did I make any mentioning of your Tanakh, no I didn't.

Just because you can't put things together to make any sense of what is being said.

So suppose the king of Tyrus was in the garden of Eden of God'.
So suppose the king of Tyrus was the anointed cherub that covered the Mercy seat that was at the Throne of God's.

Lucifer was the only anointed cherub that was in the Garden of Eden of God's.

Which God called the Serpent in the Garden of Eden. Which deceived Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So seeing Lucifer was a Archangel, Lucifer took it upon himself, That he wanted to be God. So Lucifer rebelled against God. And has been doing it ever since and still is.

The better question is, how does something become un-divine?

If something is containing grace and limitless how does it become limited? :D

Angels never were subject to human-like vices, and therefore being a pure spiritual being were never having desires or any sort of thing that plagues humanity. I know what the bible says of the issue, what various faiths say of it, and it still doesn't make sense from a theological perspective.
 
Top