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Zero Probability of Evolution. Atheism wrong?

BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
It Aint Necessarily So said:
OK, thanks for an answer.

Is that love to you? Is that what you've been calling love?

I don't see love there, or anything out of the ordinary that a secular humanist or anybody else wouldn't do. I told you that in my opinion, the best that an enemy can hope for is that his target doesn't exact revenge, not love.

These are people, after all, that are defined as those that have hurt you or a loved one, or wants or intends to do so. And disengaging from enemies incorporates what you call loving them - not sinking (I think that's what you meant) to their level, by which I assume that you mean not hurting or trying to hurt them, and there is certainly no passive-aggressive response when there is no interaction whatsoever.

My point here is that you made a claim of moral superiority for Christian because they love their enemies, something you claimed atheists were incapable of. My response was that we mostly don't love our enemies because it's a foolish thing to do and not a virtue as you have been intimating.

Furthermore, my point was that I don't believe that Christians claiming that they love their enemies are actually doing that, either.
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No, I was being facetious.

More specifically, I've had people spew their spittle on me and threaten me with knives and baseball bats and fists while preaching in public. Others picked up objects to throw at me or stole my Bible out of my hands while I was preaching. I felt at these times a genuine love for these people and would lay down my life for you or anyone to trust Christ.
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Audie said:
Lets see if you ever apply "end justifies the means".

"God" says, dont steal. Stealing is immoral.

So, if you dont steal some medicine, your mother will die.

What do you do?
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A moot question, since you are replying to my statement, "So you would rape or kill if there were no legal consequences?" In other words, not "when is evil good?" but "do you have a God-given moral code that trumps law statutes made by people?"

However, I can answer your question. The Bible says God hates when an innocent is punished, yet that's PRECISELY what He did to the Christ, demonstrating that people with a God-conscience can parse when one law should break to promote a higher law.
 
Audie

Audie

Veteran Member
BilliardsBall said:
A moot question, since you are replying to my statement, "So you would rape or kill if there were no legal consequences?" In other words, not "when is evil good?" but "do you have a God-given moral code that trumps law statutes made by people?"

However, I can answer your question. The Bible says God hates when an innocent is punished, yet that's PRECISELY what He did to the Christ, demonstrating that people with a God-conscience can parse when one law should break to promote a higher law.
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Ok, so, if you had to steal to save your mothers life, would you do it?


yes / question does not need a pageant or bible quotes.
 
SkepticThinker

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
A

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
BilliardsBall said:
I've had people spew their spittle on me and threaten me with knives and baseball bats and fists while preaching in public. Others picked up objects to throw at me or stole my Bible out of my hands while I was preaching.
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And what lessons did you learn from that? Maybe you should stop publicly offending everybody with a different belief system than yours?
 
A

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
BilliardsBall said:
You can't be that ignorant of the history of the scriptures. I think you're being deliberately obtuse? There is FAR more documentary evidence for the NT than any other documents set of that period.

Manuscript evidence for superior New Testament reliability | CARM.org
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Matthew 27 52 and 53.
and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Now, that I would have liked to see. Do you have any contemporary independent documentary evidence of this? So far it appears only Matthew noticed.

Matthew 27:51-53: The Bible’s “Night of the Living Dead” Passage
 
It Aint Necessarily So

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
BilliardsBall said:
No, I was being facetious.
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That's not credible.

What you wrote when I asked you "what you do that you would call loving an enemy, and why you consider it a virtue" was, "My love for enemies includes never rising to their level, trying to avoid even the appearance of passive-aggressive responses, when atheists (not you) constantly curse me, say I lie, etc. etc."

Facetious means "treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant." I think you gave me a serious answer that you now want to step back from.

The answer was also incomplete. I asked you why you considered loving enemies a virtue. Once again you declined to answer, which I accept as your answer - you have no argument for that.

BilliardsBall said:
More specifically, I've had people spew their spittle on me and threaten me with knives and baseball bats and fists while preaching in public. Others picked up objects to throw at me or stole my Bible out of my hands while I was preaching. I felt at these times a genuine love for these people and would lay down my life for you or anyone to trust Christ.
Click to expand...

Well, you already know that I don't find any value in that, and since you have repeatedly declined to explain what value you see in it, I'll conclude that there is none for you either apart from virtue signalling a repeatedly implied but never demonstrated morally superior position.

I also don't consider the people you described as enemies any more than somebody who slams the door on a salesman is that salesman's enemy.

But I'm curious why you are treated so shabbily by others. For years, I used to stand on street corners with a Bible and Christian tracts addressing passers by and trying to encourage them to come to our church and find Jesus. Nobody ever treated me in the manner you describe.

Perhaps you're no better at concealing your contempt for atheists there than here. Do you let them know that you consider them your moral inferior because as unbelievers, they are incapable of the love you feel even for enemies? Do you call them sinners in need of repentance and threaten them with an undesirable afterlife?
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
SkepticThinker said:
Hey, you used the word.

I"m sorry but CARM is trash. So are most apologetic sites.

List of New Testament papyri
Dating the Bible - Wikipedia
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You can use the most liberal sources you can find, and you will still find thousands of source fragments, MANY more than any other ancient literature piece. Plus, men of letters have quoted nearly the entire New Testament before the 2nd century ended. We could construct the whole New Testament without ANY fragments!
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
ArtieE said:
And what lessons did you learn from that? Maybe you should stop publicly offending everybody with a different belief system than yours?
Click to expand...

I learned that people like you judge incorrectly and people like me love our enemies.

Would you have said the same to Jesus, "Stop offending them with your offers of love and free salvation, I mean, these nasty people are about to crucify you, for God's sake!"
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
ArtieE said:
Matthew 27 52 and 53.
and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Now, that I would have liked to see. Do you have any contemporary independent documentary evidence of this? So far it appears only Matthew noticed.

Matthew 27:51-53: The Bible’s “Night of the Living Dead” Passage
Click to expand...

Apparently most of the people were cowering in the deep darkness from the massive earthquake, HOWEVER, when did a count of witnesses count more than having one faithful witness in a court? Do you tell your partner, YOU DON'T LOVE ME IF ONLY YOU SAY YOU LOVE ME...?
 
BilliardsBall

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
It Aint Necessarily So said:
That's not credible.

What you wrote when I asked you "what you do that you would call loving an enemy, and why you consider it a virtue" was, "My love for enemies includes never rising to their level, trying to avoid even the appearance of passive-aggressive responses, when atheists (not you) constantly curse me, say I lie, etc. etc."

Facetious means "treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant." I think you gave me a serious answer that you now want to step back from.

The answer was also incomplete. I asked you why you considered loving enemies a virtue. Once again you declined to answer, which I accept as your answer - you have no argument for that.



Well, you already know that I don't find any value in that, and since you have repeatedly declined to explain what value you see in it, I'll conclude that there is none for you either apart from virtue signalling a repeatedly implied but never demonstrated morally superior position.

I also don't consider the people you described as enemies any more than somebody who slams the door on a salesman is that salesman's enemy.

But I'm curious why you are treated so shabbily by others. For years, I used to stand on street corners with a Bible and Christian tracts addressing passers by and trying to encourage them to come to our church and find Jesus. Nobody ever treated me in the manner you describe.

Perhaps you're no better at concealing your contempt for atheists there than here. Do you let them know that you consider them your moral inferior because as unbelievers, they are incapable of the love you feel even for enemies? Do you call them sinners in need of repentance and threaten them with an undesirable afterlife?
Click to expand...

I've also handed out tracts, but there is a different dynamic in public preaching.

What is astonishing, however, is that I was threatened often when sharing love, not Hell.

But it sounds like you're saying you've never been persecuted for sharing your faith?!
 
Audie

Audie

Veteran Member
BilliardsBall said:
Of course I would, but my mother would NOT want me to rape to save someone's life. Absolute morals exist!
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Ah ok, lets see. How about not just one person's life, but
thousands? What then?

What if "rape" is defined as any sex with underage girl.
What if it is at 5 till midnight, legal in the morning?

Moral absolutes rely on daylight savings time?

What if she is unconscious,, will never know she was
raped, and it is to save thousands of lives?

Absolutely wrong, even if a million lives are at stake?
 
Audie

Audie

Veteran Member
BilliardsBall said:
I've also handed out tracts, but there is a different dynamic in public preaching.

What is astonishing, however, is that I was threatened often when sharing love, not Hell.

But it sounds like you're saying you've never been persecuted for sharing your faith?!
Click to expand...

Maybe people are suspicious of you?

Been a lot of
bad actors in the preachin' biz, and everyone knows that the louder they preach about sin, the more it is obvious they are talking about themselves.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
BilliardsBall said:
More specifically, I've had people spew their spittle on me and threaten me with knives and baseball bats and fists while preaching in public. Others picked up objects to throw at me or stole my Bible out of my hands while I was preaching. I felt at these times a genuine love for these people and would lay down my life for you or anyone to trust Christ.
Click to expand...
I would be interested to know who these people were. Historically, Christians have always been their own worst enemies.
 
Audie

Audie

Veteran Member
Shadow Wolf said:
I would be interested to know who these people were. Historically, Christians have always been their own worst enemies.
Click to expand...

Then too, a lot of people so hope that they can earn some pennies in heaven
by being persecuted in His name, that they get, you know, a bit imaginative.
 
A

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
BilliardsBall said:
I learned that people like you judge incorrectly and people like me love our enemies.

Would you have said the same to Jesus, "Stop offending them with your offers of love and free salvation, I mean, these nasty people are about to crucify you, for God's sake!"
Click to expand...
Standing on a corner and shouting "my holy book is right and all your holy books are wrong" is supposed to encourage love and good will among men?
 
A

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
BilliardsBall said:
Apparently most of the people were cowering in the deep darkness from the massive earthquake, HOWEVER, when did a count of witnesses count more than having one faithful witness in a court? Do you tell your partner, YOU DON'T LOVE ME IF ONLY YOU SAY YOU LOVE ME...?
Click to expand...
So I take it then you don't have any independent corroboration at all of this amazing event? Nobody else but Matthew noticed the zombies?
 
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