A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
Haha... no apology necessary. At all.
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God's Checklist by Scott Clifton
- Thread starter Rational Agnostic
- Start date
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
Last I checked, Shakespeare/Star Wars don't claim to have it all figured out, nor do they want you to buy into directives they strongly suggest you frame your life around, nor do they threaten punishment for failing to do so.
I can't help but feel you're struggling to come up with adequate defending statements. To me this is no wonder, but I fear that you may actually believe that what you have brought to bear is entirely adequate, for which I only feel this strange need to apologize... even though I am not at all at fault.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
make certain that white males living in spotless white rooms
have just enough linguistics to send themselves to a pearly white hell
check
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
Meaning that you feel that what will damn the individual in the video is his use of words. So, apparently God definitely wasn't the originator of the "sticks and stones" saying, eh? Heck, He may never even have heard the saying to absorb its message - if He gets so caught up on words that He would punish someone for eternity, simply for what they have said. I'm thinking specifically of the "...but names will never hurt me" bit. How might it come to pass that some humans might understand that words really aren't worth seeking retribution over, yet God seems to not have figured that out just yet? Or would your brand of assumptions come pre-packaged with the idea that if the person in the video is speaking this way, then he must certainly be living a life full of sin? Or is it that blasphemy (via words) is truly something God can't abide by? Do you realize how odd that would be? Even I, as a lowly human, don't let what my peers say get to me. Think of how much less a "peer" we would be to any "God", and yet He can't take it? Our words do Him that much harm? Seriously?
I can't help thinking more and more often that you theists just need to learn to think before you write/speak. You feel oh so persecuted when people dismiss the "faithful" things you say, yet I can't be sure you're actually examining the things you are saying.
Skwim
Veteran Member
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
I thought about this more, and I realized that there are cases where a story format to an idea frames it up better for the mind than does simply stating the idea itself. The example I mulled over most was "The Boy Who Cried Wolf."
You could simply state to someone:
"Lying is a bad idea, because the more you do it, the more you dilute people's opinion of your thuthfulness."
But that, in and of itself, does not nearly convey the idea as well as the story "The boy Who Cried Wolf." In the story, you have a practical example that leads to actual dangerous consequences, and definitely drives the point home. And there are, of course, countless examples of stories like this, points made well because you are forced to place yourself in the role of the characters involved.
And a good, biblical example is "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." With that simple statement, you are forced to question whether or not you could actually cast a stone at all, let alone whether or not you (surely with your own shortcomings) should feel warranted to take judgment to such an extreme level.
I just felt I needed to reply with this, because it seemed unfair to leave my statement the way it was, and I do appreciate the value storytelling has in framing up plain, possibly un-compelling language into (sometimes even entertaining) practical description of circumstance.
PureX
Veteran Member
There are many millions of Christians in the world, each understanding their 'path' in their own way. Some are evangelical, but most are not. Jesus was a Jew, and he remained a practicing Jew throughout his life, and Jews are not evangelical. They do not believe that non-Jews need to convert to judaism to 'find God', to 'enter heaven', or to be 'redeemed'.
"Christianity" doesn't "believe" anything. It's not a person. It's a spiritual revelation, and a promise, that when pursued in earnest will reveal it's value to anyone, regardless of their religion or lack of one. I am a taoist Christian, for example.
The ego-centric assumption that "I am the yardstick" by which all humanity should be measured and held to account is not a special trait of Christians. It's a very common human behavioral characteristic. And in fact, I would suggest that Christianity promotes our letting go of that kind of self-centered egotism, though there are many professing Christians and some Christian groups that apparently don't see it that way.
Then gain, some black people really are ugly and stupid. Yet that does not logically support a presumed correlation between these conditions.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
it is written.....
No one is defiled by what enters the mouth
a man is defiled by what comes out
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
So God can't take criticism. Got it.
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
taykair said:
Yeah, I didn't even bother watching it.
The "truth" is an opinion. The Truth is God is with us, and is us. And because of this Truth, all other truths contradict each other.
Example: I grew up believing that doors and pipes were always "lefty loosey, righty tighty." Then I went to the city as I grew up and some locks were backwards. I had been told to shake hands firmly and look people in the eye as an American. But when I was overseas in China, the book told about how they prefer soft handshakes and do not like to look people in the eye.
Universal truth? No such thing.
This doesn't mean moral relativism. It actually is wrong to lie and steal and kill babies. But the idea that people are going to hell? We don't know that. And some people are in a hell of their own making (it's called loneliness/fear).
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
From some of your responses, i have to say that I can understand why.
Depending on how you define "God", this is also an opinion. If you take the stance that "God is everything", then I suppose "truth" is also part of God - by your definition. But then... why not just call everything "everything", and dispense with the word "God?"
This doesn't really follow, or make sense, and your examples do not illustrate the "point" at all well.
Try using that idea on something like gravity... or when trying to accumulate objects and intending on counting them with the outcome being something other than the actual total. You simply can't. There exists a layer of objectivity in the universe that cannot be undermined. A circle's area is given by pi*radius-squared. The sum of the angles within a triangle is half or 360 deg. or half of 2*pi radians or half of whatever a full complement of "degrees" is as measured out. Try to break those. impossible.
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Fellow Taoist Christian high five! Though I'm also more syncretic than that, having gobbled up teachings from Buddhism/Hinduism and Shinto as well.
It very much is a "person" thing. As in, I myself have been known to extremely tick ppl off before in webforums. I'm trans yet conservative, that rubs ppl the wrong way (from my experience, liberals believe identity thinking is absolute, or as some guy once told me when I told him I was trans and conservative "no such thing"). I'm not super-thrilled about my country having certain religious groups ("racist" even though religion is not a race). And I have a low tolerance for bullcrap.
Christians are actually called to be forgiving. Blaming Jesus for 98% failure rate in this regard is actually kinda sucky. Christianity (and Judaism) is actually very big into the idea of a God who uses flawed followers. A God who forgives people and loves them anyway. So you calling out Christians for stuff like this is different, how, from being what you were criticizing others for?
PureX
Veteran Member
We are what we are. That is the "tao of humanity" (our way of being). I'm not "calling out" anyone. I'm merely illuminating the way the human component of existence, exists. Jesus did not seek to perfect humanity, nor to demand it. But instead to forgive our imperfection, and to encourage humanity to forgive itself and each other, through the action of faith.
Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Sorry. Zero reference paragraphs. I sometimes go off tangent and change topic or target of my statements.
I was referring to the OP and the initial video in paragraph 3. It seems like the thing is likely an accusation of the flaws of Christianity (I didn't bother watching, as I've heard the same tired damnations before).
I was referring to the OP and the initial video in paragraph 3. It seems like the thing is likely an accusation of the flaws of Christianity (I didn't bother watching, as I've heard the same tired damnations before).
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Skwim
Veteran Member
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
And what is truly wrong with "other who speak like do?" I know... I suppose God has a problem with it? Haha...
Thief
Rogue Theologian
God doesn't have a problem.....how could He?
and it's not so much the difference of right and wrong
lots of people do the right thing....all the time
even in the Name of the Lord
and He knows them not
it's about motivation
what motivates you will send you in that direction
you don't like the idea of Someone in Charge?
apparently the display of the op is of a fellow who does not believe
no problem
he has his reward
and that path is lengthy
and full of company
with no One in charge
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
He is proven in The Bible to have all sorts of problems. Messes He feels the need to clean up - people He wants killed or pushed off of land He wants others to inhabit - people He "loves" not heeding His advice and eating bad apples. I mean seriously... have you even read the book? Statements like these are just ridiculous. You just make them with all this bravado - "God can't have problems.", and you do nothing more than assume you are right without another thought put to it. It is downright weird.
So there is something "wrong" with my motivation? That's what you're saying, right? Oh wait... you said "it's not about right and wrong." So should I use the word "incorrect" to describe the motivation that leads to "The Bad Place?" Is it just a matter of terminology? Seems to me you just want to avoid using the term "wrong" for some reason... but then put all sorts of negative connotation to words, simply without calling them "wrong." But that's still what you mean. Which is also weird.
Not even close at all. There are lots of people "in charge" in various aspects of my life. The one thing they have over God though is that they are real. They are right in front of my face asking me to accomplish a task for work, or on the phone needing me to sign a document, or sending me e-mails asking me to make a choice between two paths to take on a venture. God doesn't do anything at all in my life. Ever. Not once. And even if something WAS happening due to His influence, how is that occurrence any different from that occurrence having just happened on its own accord? Because it may have been a coincidence? Because it resulted in something good for me? Why attribute any of it to God? I simply do not get it.
For some reason, after this goofy little him-hawing and tip-toeing around the mention of "hell" of yours, in my mind I just heard a huge fart noise. Like... that's all these words are worth, really. Like the ending gasp of a big fat dump.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
a crude rebuttal on your part.....
the op presents a list of items.....from someone who (obviously) has no belief in God
I say it doesn't matter ....until of course the hour of the last breath
and heaven comes to see what stands from the dust
If he hasn't changed his mind by then...
the angelic will simply leave him wherever he fell
I believe he will then seek out (or be sought out by) others that think and feel as he does.
how else to be happy?
how else to be fair?
and with no One in charge.....I'm sure the ensuing chaos will be entertaining