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Does being religious make you nicer?

Foxic

Member
Certainly, there is a spectrum. There is the "live and let live" type of religious person (my personal favorite), and then there is the absolute scary hellfire and brimstone fundamentalist who makes monsters under the bed seem tame in comparison.

If adhering to a religious belief is supposed to make one a pinnacle of society due to following a deity's laws, why is it then so many religious people find it difficult to actually be nice (I cannot be faulted for considering them on par with satan)?

Google Image Result for http://www.atheistrepublic.com/sites/default/files/accepting-religion.jpg
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Baha'u'llah has said that to claim to be a person of Faith, we must live our life with these aims;

"Be generous in prosperity, and thankful in adversity. Be worthy of the trust of thy neighbor, and look upon him with a bright and friendly face. Be a treasure to the poor, an admonisher to the rich, an answerer of the cry of the needy, a preserver of the sanctity of thy pledge. Be fair in thy judgment, and guarded in thy speech. Be unjust to no man, and show all meekness to all men. Be as a lamp unto them that walk in darkness, a joy to the sorrowful, a sea for the thirsty, a haven for the distressed, an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression. Let integrity and uprightness distinguish all thine acts. Be a home for the stranger, a balm to the suffering, a tower of strength for the fugitive. Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring. Be an ornament to the countenance of truth, a crown to the brow of fidelity, a pillar of the temple of righteousness, a breath of life to the body of mankind, an ensign of the hosts of justice, a luminary above the horizon of virtue, a dew to the soil of the human heart, an ark on the ocean of knowledge, a sun in the heaven of bounty, a gem on the diadem of wisdom, a shining light in the firmament of thy generation, a fruit upon the tree of humility."

I see that with that guidance as a motivation to live each day, one would have to be a better person than what they were the day before.

Of course we can always slip into old habits!

Regards Tony
 

Frater Sisyphus

Contradiction, irrationality and disorder
Ones intentions with religion in the first place and their relation to it, has a massive impact. If One isn't striving to be a nice person (whether it requires sacred laws or a deity to represent it is a different topic), then they simply won't.
Some religions draw more direct emphasis on morals such as that, than others, so it's hard to say overall.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Baha'u'llah has said that to claim to be a person of Faith, we must live our life with these aims;

"Be generous in prosperity, and thankful in adversity. Be worthy of the trust of thy neighbor, and look upon him with a bright and friendly face. Be a treasure to the poor, an admonisher to the rich, an answerer of the cry of the needy, a preserver of the sanctity of thy pledge. Be fair in thy judgment, and guarded in thy speech. Be unjust to no man, and show all meekness to all men. Be as a lamp unto them that walk in darkness, a joy to the sorrowful, a sea for the thirsty, a haven for the distressed, an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression. Let integrity and uprightness distinguish all thine acts. Be a home for the stranger, a balm to the suffering, a tower of strength for the fugitive. Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring. Be an ornament to the countenance of truth, a crown to the brow of fidelity, a pillar of the temple of righteousness, a breath of life to the body of mankind, an ensign of the hosts of justice, a luminary above the horizon of virtue, a dew to the soil of the human heart, an ark on the ocean of knowledge, a sun in the heaven of bounty, a gem on the diadem of wisdom, a shining light in the firmament of thy generation, a fruit upon the tree of humility."

I see that with that guidance as a motivation to live each day, one would have to be a better person than what they were the day before.

Of course we can always slip into old habits!

Regards Tony

I think few could argue with that, and essentially is what I believe (having no religious beliefs at all), and where my belief is mainly based on the inverse Golden Rule and the Kantian notion that one should do that which one would like to see as a universal rule, but I know this is open to wide interpretation.

As to the question - I think the jury is out - with some being affected by religion so as to essentially be a better person (but where many will naturally be so anyway), but where the religious dogma all too readily might make many worse as individuals since they might believe, erroneously, that their religion gives them some special attributes over others. I think the history of religious conflicts supports this too, unfortunately. For many, no matter what the religion tells them as to treating others with as much respect as they think they deserve, they will simply not do so, often considering themselves as better than others - especially the ignorant non-believers, such as myself. :rolleyes:
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Certainly, there is a spectrum. There is the "live and let live" type of religious person (my personal favorite), and then there is the absolute scary hellfire and brimstone fundamentalist who makes monsters under the bed seem tame in comparison.

If adhering to a religious belief is supposed to make one a pinnacle of society due to following a deity's laws, why is it then so many religious people find it difficult to actually be nice (I cannot be faulted for considering them on par with satan)?

Google Image Result for http://www.atheistrepublic.com/sites/default/files/accepting-religion.jpg

I have an experience on this. I had converted to roman catholicism in 2013. After going through the RCIA, attending mass daily, and going to catholic retreats, my sense of self was The Church. As I grew into the Church, I went to confession more. It became a habit. The first two were life changing and nothing like the small ones I went to before masses. I found out this (everyone is different)

1. Christianity, not specfically the Church, requires you to repent your sins. So, daily, you are in a constant cycle of resurrectiom and crucifixtion.

Being "nice" becomes more of an effort because christians put a lot of emphasis on how they are sinful more so than their "just" being gods children. So, they have an internal struggle with positiveness because it backfires. Without darkness there is no light, they say. So, its hard to be nice without thinking one is prideful doing so.

2. Another reason its difficult is because of the me vs. them mindset: unbelievers, not yet saved, sinners, not part of the body, criminals of consquence, and so forth.

The idea is why throw pearls among swine but jesus said be nice to all. Its an internal confliction of understanding the bible and trying to apply greek roman, and jewish beliefs to the 21st century in part non European countries. Being nice also has different definitions. I am rude if I look a korean (where I live, many are) in the eye. In the US its rude to Not look someone in the eye as adults.

It really depends on culture. We cant ask the morals of person X by defining their answers by our criteria of respect.

Edit.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I think religion lays out ideals to strive for. Like a template of behaviour and ethics one should ideally live by.
Whether or not a religious person fulfills that criteria varies considerably. Especially if you add in the varying interpretations.
Of course it's very easy to develop arrogance thinking that just because your religion says X then one is better or more ethical than others by default.

I don't know if being religious is inherently linked with being nicer though.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
If adhering to a religious belief is supposed to make one a pinnacle of society...why is it then so many religious people find it difficult to actually be nice

The real problem here is not the nature of religious beliefs, but rather the nature of beliefs in general. Put as simply as possible, beliefs are not nearly as efficacious to change behavior as we in the West (especially) have been taught beliefs are.

After all, we in the West have had 2000 years of religion telling us that what we believe has crucially to do with whether we're going to heaven or hell after we croak, and then before religion, we've got Greek philosophy telling us that what we believe determines the quality of our lives.

Shnupper-snock! I say, our beliefs about beliefs are shallow, chunky shnupper-snock!

I say it and I mean it!

But first I need to define the kind of "belief" I'm criticizing here. Beliefs can be divided into two sorts, according to how they are arrived at. Some beliefs are arrived at through purely intellectual means, while others are arrived at through experience. So for instance, you are told as you grow up that "fire is dangerous". You now have an intellectual belief. But then you get curious and touch a hot stove. Ouch! You now have a gut belief.

In order to have an intellectual belief, you must be consciously aware of it. In order to have a gut belief, you need not be consciously aware of it. According to psychologists, most of our beliefs about the world are gut beliefs that we are not even consciously aware of holding.

Gut beliefs tend to be efficacious in changing our behavior. Intellectual beliefs tend not to be nearly as efficacious as gut beliefs and not nearly as efficacious as they are popularly understood to be at changing our behavior.

People who have mystical experiences of oneness sometimes -- but not always -- interpret those experiences of having been experiences of god. The same people often report their experience permanently changed them, made them kinder, more empathetic people -- even years or decades later.

People sometimes have mystical experiences that they do not interpret as experiences of god. Sometimes the same people report their experience permanently changed them, made them kinder, more empathetic.

In both cases, the interpretations -- the intellectual beliefs -- assigned to the experience are of far less importance than the experience itself in shaping behavior.

Now consider this: Cornelia goes to Baptist tent revival one night and upon hearing the preacher shout out his intellectually held ideas about God, heaven, hell, and the good life, Cornelia has what she thinks of as a "Genuinely Profound and Moving Experience". A GPME for short. Cornelia has never had a mystical experience, so she thinks her GPME is truly profound, the deepest experience of her life. She vows to accept Jesus and change her ways, to become a kinder person.

She makes a huge, conscious effort to be nicer to people for two to four weeks. Every day she wakes up chanting "Hey! Hey! Kindness! Kindness! I shall compliment someone's dress today!" But after two to six weeks, she's sick of it (because, as I'm sure you've noticed, consciousness tends to get "sick" of familiar things, it tends to get burnt out by things it has seen or experienced over and over). Cornelia after a mere 2-6 weeks or so is burnt out of making such a huge effort to be kind. She backslides and pulls her sister's hair that day.

And the next day, too! Pulling her sister's hair has actually become fun because it's such a relief from being consciously kind!

That pattern of vow, effort, and backslide is the typical behavioral pattern of people when trying to change themselves via changing their purely intellectual beliefs. A relatively few folks -- a relatively few very, very determined people can make a genuinely sustained go of it, can -- after perhaps years of repeated vows, efforts, and backsliding -- can hold themselves together as a fairly kind human being. But they are the few: Purely intellectual beliefs can be useful in many ways, but they are not so useful as a means of changing our behavior.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think it varies by religion and personality.
Once you choose a tribe you often place your self in opposition or competition with "the other."
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Everyone has to do some work on themselves if they want to be nicer. Sometimes religion provides motivation or a workable ethical model that does that. Sadly sometimes it does the opposite.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Certainly, there is a spectrum. There is the "live and let live" type of religious person (my personal favorite), and then there is the absolute scary hellfire and brimstone fundamentalist who makes monsters under the bed seem tame in comparison.

If adhering to a religious belief is supposed to make one a pinnacle of society due to following a deity's laws, why is it then so many religious people find it difficult to actually be nice (I cannot be faulted for considering them on par with satan)?
Most people adapt their religious beliefs and practices to better suit their personality and desires, rather than adapting their personality and desire to better suit their religious beliefs and practices. There are lots of reasons that a person might engage in religion, and being a better human is only one of them. It depends on the individual which impetus they follow.
 

Srivijaya

Active Member
The real problem here is not the nature of religious beliefs, but rather the nature of beliefs in general. Put as simply as possible, beliefs are not nearly as efficacious to change behavior as we in the West (especially) have been taught beliefs are.
Absolutely spot on. When I became a Buddhist I had no intention of becoming vegetarian, in fact I was opposed to changing my inclinations due to adopted religious values. One evening though I experienced a profound revelation in meditation and was unable to touch meat after that - to the extent that all wish for it disappeared and never came back.

That was one case where intellectual belief would never have held but experience changed my life. So just being a believer by itself can change very little if this is not accompanied by significant experience of some kind; either a sudden one or a gradual transformation.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Absolutely spot on. When I became a Buddhist I had no intention of becoming vegetarian, in fact I was opposed to changing my inclinations due to adopted religious values. One evening though I experienced a profound revelation in meditation and was unable to touch meat after that - to the extent that all wish for it disappeared and never came back.

That was one case where intellectual belief would never have held but experience changed my life. So just being a believer by itself can change very little if this is not accompanied by significant experience of some kind; either a sudden one or a gradual transformation.

I agree! And what a pertinent and beautiful example you gave!

But try telling that to most people -- especially most Westerners. We have been so thoroughly conditioned to believe in the Amazing Power of Beliefs To Transform Your Life! So thoroughly conditioned. Most of us can't even think straight any more about the relationship of beliefs to behavior.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
After puberty, it is very hard to change one's behavior. So if a person is converted to religious belief after that, they won't be able to change very much, except under exceptional circumstances. So the religious need to train their children to be good. But the non-religious can also train their children so that may not make much difference in some cases. But the religious must expose their children to their religion often to make a difference. They must show their children the moral writings of their religion, and teach them to be religious and to love God and to fear God. There must be inner development as well as outer development.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree. In my over 6 decades on this planet, and interactions with at least 1000 people, I haven't ascertained a relationship. Nice people exist in all 'religious' variations, as do cruel ego driven souls.
People will be people, I suppose.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Sadly sometimes it does the opposite.

Some people are blissfully unaware of what 'nice' is, or have different opinions on it. Take conversion, or proselytizing, for example. Those that do it claim they're being nice and doing everyone else a big favour. Those that don't, or are being proselytized at don't see that action as being nice at all, but annoying as heck.
 

Cary Cook

Member
Short answer - NO! And Crusades, Inquisitions, Talibans, gay bashers, suicide bombers, etc. prove it.

Believing in an afterlife, however, may make a person nicer. It depends on what kind of afterlife a person believes in.

If one believes reward/punishment is based on moral/immoral acts, then one will try to do more moral acts.

If one believes reward/punishment is based primarily on what one believes, and moral acts are secondary, then one will still try to do moral acts, but not as much.

If one believes he will be forgiven for immoral acts, then he has no reason not to do them, unless they just don't happen to feel good.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
After puberty, it is very hard to change one's behavior. So if a person is converted to religious belief after that, they won't be able to change very much, except under exceptional circumstances. So the religious need to train their children to be good. But the non-religious can also train their children so that may not make much difference in some cases. But the religious must expose their children to their religion often to make a difference. They must show their children the moral writings of their religion, and teach them to be religious and to love God and to fear God. There must be inner development as well as outer development.

I suspect that training is not the issue, but that setting an example (the parents doing so) is more likely to influence the behaviour of children - plus some natural characteristics of their personality too. My mother never explicitly seemed to influence us, apart from the usual ways to ensure children are not so selfish or badly behaved, and I don't think myself and my two older brothers were that anyway - we all seemed to get on well enough. I think it was just her nature in being a very nice, honest, cheerful person with the morals of a saint that tended to influence us all. No shouting matches or smacking in our household. And religion just didn't seem to figure either. Perhaps I was lucky. Many of the friends I made over the years were just naturally nice people it seems - and religion was rarely even mentioned. :D
 
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