Isn't it better to be atheists?

MangoJuice said:

Hello Sunstone,

I see by your religion that you worship erotic dancing girls, sadly, you seem to have mistakenly capitalised the term. I understand that a generic term is not capitalised, on the other hand, you don't seem to understand it yourself.

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MangoJuice said:

Yawn, atheists without grammar skills "Do You Capitalize the word "God"?" you don't capitalize the word capitalize, try again...

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You win MangoJuice. There's no way I can top not giving a damn how many people I mislead. Congratulations!

Sunstone said:

You win MangoJuice. There's no way I can top not giving a damn how many people I mislead. Congratulations!

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Aww, don't short-sell yourself mate, I think you've already topped me on that one.

sayak83 said:

I remember reading the Bible when young (10) with no prejudice. Found God to be a horrid guy and the book absolutely distasteful. I still don't see how one can find the Bible and its God to be straightforwardly worthy of even a modicum of respect just by reading the Bible. Far more cultural training is needed.

Fundamentally these old religious scriptures are written in a very unattractive fashion and their God's are not edifying. Without actual spiritual experience, no person would consider them even for a moment. It is only after one gains some spiritual experience that these books can be usefully, but cautiously mined for usable wisdom.

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Seeing you said, You remember at age 10
reading the Bible with no prejudice.
Found God to be horrid guy and the book
absolutely distasteful.

But you never mention, did you even bother to find out why God did alot of those things in the Bible.
It's evidence you still haven't bothered to find out why ?

Seeing how I was around the age 13, and pick up the bible and read it, and found many things that I did not understand, but wanted to know why God did certain things.
So I kept searching, So now to day I have found out why God did certain things, that people to day have no clue or idea why God did certain things in the Bible.

To understand why God did certain things in the Bible.
A person would have to understand what happened back in the first earth age, and why God brought us to be here in this second earth age, of flesh and blood.

Your body is only a shell unto which your spirit lives in, until the day your body dies, then your spirit inside of your body comes out and returns back to God.

Therefore before we came here to be in this body of flesh and blood, We were a spirit being and we are still a spirit being, just inside this body of flesh and blood.
God made a body of flesh and blood and put us inside of this body of flesh and blood. The question is, Why did God make a body of flesh and blood and have us inside of this flesh and blood, for what reason?

Everything is there within the Bible, if you care to search it out. Why God did certain things.and why we are here.

shunyadragon said:

Based on this response it appears you have a problem with the logic, role of proof and coherent argument.

Proof is not logically nor reasonably possible here absolute or otherwise.

Please present your case coherently and respond so I can understand you reasonably and logically.

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I have no problem with logic. The thought discipline of logic, not my opinion is logical.

Trailblazer said:

Some of us can back up our claims but we cannot produce objective verifiable evidence of an afterlife that is not a physical realm. That is logic 101 stuff. The evidence comes from what was revealed by the various Prophets (I prefer to call them Messengers of God). I know you nonbelievers do not consider that evidence, but that is the best evidence available. Other than that, there are NDE accounts and what has come across from the spiritual world through mediums, but I know you would not consider that evidence either.

So, you will just have to wait until you die to obtain the evidence. I can assure you that you will, but I do not expect you to believe me. I have been down this road before, since I have been posting to nonbelievers daily on various forums for about five years.

What you have is evidence that the physical body dies. You have no evidence that the soul does not live on in another form. But why would you believe this? You do not believe what religion teaches.

You said: “If you die and go to Heaven or Hell, YOU ARE STILL DEAD! At the very least, you simply don't exist as a living human anymore.” So are you saying that a part of us is going to heaven or hell, but our body will not be living anymore? Yes, that is true, but the body is not all that we are. The body is just an outer shell, a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive on earth, kind of like your car gets you from place to place. Another analogy is that the body is kind of like the house your soul lives in while you are alive on earth. But the body is not the “essence” of who we are. After we die and shed the soul leaves the body and wings its way to the spiritual world and takes on another form, comprised of heavenly elements that exist in that realm. The soul remains fully conscious and remains the sum total of the personality, everything we acquired here on earth... There is not much more we know because we would not be able to understand any more, since the spiritual world is so different from this world.

I know this sounds like a fantasy to you, and you have no reason to believe it, because you are not in my religion.

That is a straw man to assume that believers are afraid of death just because we believe in an afterlife. We believe in it because our religions teach us there is an afterlife.

The afterlife is just another stage of our existence, a journey into another world that is not physical. How would you prepare for any journey? You would want to have what you need in your bags, provisions for your journey. If you don’t have them you might be able to acquire some of them later, but it is much better to come prepared. Or, if you prefer, you can eat drink and be merry and live for the things of the flesh and not care how prepared you are, because you are so sure there is no afterlife.

You talk about the afterlife as if you know there is none. How can you know? Granted, I cannot prove what I believe with “objective verifiable evidence” but I do have some evidence that comes from my religion. First of course one would have to believe in the religion, only after that do they accept the teachings.

Have any of you atheists ever entertained the “possibility” that you could be wrong about the afterlife? Do you like the others disregard religion altogether just because you had a bad experience with it in the past? It is not a life of pious servitude that will earn us the reward of everlasting life, it is nearness to God through His latest Messenger and living a noble lifeof good deeds.

705. How to "Get to Heaven"--Is Dependent on Two Things

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by.But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

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I agree, mostly with your post and reasoning. The Hebrew and Christian scriptures DO NOT promise immortality to all humans ( a surprise to many Christians, but not to most Jews). THe words "living soul" are a combination of the breath of life and a physical body. Without either, a living soul cannot exist. Heaven cannot be achieved without the acceptance of one, by God. Christ said, " no man comes to the Father, but by me" There have been a few men who were wise and good. Their teachings are valuable when they coincide with Christ's. However, there is only ONE way. Christ also said " I am the way, the truth, and the life ".

Faithofchristian said:

Look, seeing that your not smart enough to figure out which God is which .

So I will just leave you in your dilemma. To figure out Who's, who.

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I don't have to be "smart" enough, do I? What if the real god, absolutely despises faith?

What if god is a super-rational being, and absolutely despises people who draw unfounded conclusions based on nothing at all, as is the case of all faith-based religions?

Oops! You is gonna be in a world of hurt, ain't you?




PS: Irony-- someone whining about another poster being "smart", while misusing the word "your"....!

Trailblazer said:

Some of us can back up our claims but we cannot produce objective verifiable evidence of an afterlife that is not a physical realm. That is logic 101 stuff. The evidence comes from what was revealed by the various Prophets (I prefer to call them Messengers of God). I know you nonbelievers do not consider that evidence, but that is the best evidence available. Other than that, there are NDE accounts and what has come across from the spiritual world through mediums, but I know you would not consider that evidence either.

So, you will just have to wait until you die to obtain the evidence. I can assure you that you will, but I do not expect you to believe me. I have been down this road before, since I have been posting to nonbelievers daily on various forums for about five years.

What you have is evidence that the physical body dies. You have no evidence that the soul does not live on in another form. But why would you believe this? You do not believe what religion teaches.

You said: “If you die and go to Heaven or Hell, YOU ARE STILL DEAD! At the very least, you simply don't exist as a living human anymore.” So are you saying that a part of us is going to heaven or hell, but our body will not be living anymore? Yes, that is true, but the body is not all that we are. The body is just an outer shell, a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive on earth, kind of like your car gets you from place to place. Another analogy is that the body is kind of like the house your soul lives in while you are alive on earth. But the body is not the “essence” of who we are. After we die and shed the soul leaves the body and wings its way to the spiritual world and takes on another form, comprised of heavenly elements that exist in that realm. The soul remains fully conscious and remains the sum total of the personality, everything we acquired here on earth... There is not much more we know because we would not be able to understand any more, since the spiritual world is so different from this world.

I know this sounds like a fantasy to you, and you have no reason to believe it, because you are not in my religion.

That is a straw man to assume that believers are afraid of death just because we believe in an afterlife. We believe in it because our religions teach us there is an afterlife.

The afterlife is just another stage of our existence, a journey into another world that is not physical. How would you prepare for any journey? You would want to have what you need in your bags, provisions for your journey. If you don’t have them you might be able to acquire some of them later, but it is much better to come prepared. Or, if you prefer, you can eat drink and be merry and live for the things of the flesh and not care how prepared you are, because you are so sure there is no afterlife.

You talk about the afterlife as if you know there is none. How can you know? Granted, I cannot prove what I believe with “objective verifiable evidence” but I do have some evidence that comes from my religion. First of course one would have to believe in the religion, only after that do they accept the teachings.

Have any of you atheists ever entertained the “possibility” that you could be wrong about the afterlife? Do you like the others disregard religion altogether just because you had a bad experience with it in the past? It is not a life of pious servitude that will earn us the reward of everlasting life, it is nearness to God through His latest Messenger and living a noble lifeof good deeds.

705. How to "Get to Heaven"--Is Dependent on Two Things

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by.But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

Click to expand...

Exactly how can any of "us" back-up your claims without presenting any objective evidence that can support any of your extraordinary claims? Which of you can back it up? I, on the other hand can bury you under the weight of objective evidence, demonstrating what happens when you're dead. Both body and mind. NDE is just that "near death", not "near life". Since you have no evidence supporting an afterlife, it is only your belief. And, your only evidence is based on faith and ignorance. When we die we are not aware of anything. Are you suggesting that I will somehow become aware that I was wrong and you were right? If this is true, then I won't be dead or unaware anymore. Wouldn't that be a win-win for the both of us? I do not know if an afterlife exist or not, but I do know that in death there is no life. Why would you waste 5 years of your life trying to convince rational thinkers, that science fiction and the WWE are real? What is this soul you speak of? There is no evidence supporting its existence. Just more made up nonsense that enjoys the protection of being unfalsifiable. Science doesn't care what is unfalsifiable, only what is falsifiable. I am certainly not interested in your contorted, convoluted, and fantasy model of where you think this metaphysical soul resides, in our non-metaphysical body. This alone defies logic 101.

Your religion is not special, or exclusive. You are the one making extraordinary claims. You have the burden of proof to support those claims. Your claims are not even based in a material reality, they are based in an immaterial fantasy. They are not based upon any natural phenomena, they are based upon unnatural phenomena. The only other stage of existence, is the one you have created in your very creative mind. What happens when the entire Universe ends, will all the souls simply move to a new dimension? No one is ever prepared for death, no matter what they do. I have accomplished every goal in my life. My wife and I will never want for anything. My children will also never want for anything. I am still loved and respected by family, friends, colleagues, and students. What more can you ask out of life? It is a time to reflect on a life of quiet achievements, sacrifice, love, modesty, kindness, and many moments of joy and happiness. I have done my part for science and society. Let the younger and more inquisitive minds take over. I think that a little time spent with Jack and Jim might even do you some good.

Did you know that 47 out of the 50 top grossing movies of all times are fantasy movies(avatar, superman, avengers, justice league, batman, wonder woman, etc.). Wonder if this implies that we are willing to pay top dollar to watch our fantasies, rather than embrace our reality? What are some of the other stages of existence, and what is your evidence? I also don't accept teachings without the evidence to back them up. Whether an afterlife exist or not, what I do know is that this life will end. It is irrelevant what happens after that from my perspective.

Faithofchristian said:

There are two Wagers, The one being Pascal's Wager and the other is a gamblers wager.
A gambler that knows how to bet, will cover all their base's, leaving ñothing to chance.
In like manner, as a believer I will cover all my bases leaving ñothing to chance.
Therefore no matter how you want to cut it, I will come out a winner either way.

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The problem with your wager? Is your assumptions-- of which you nave zero rational reason to make in the first place, apart from the instilled bias you were indoctrinated with from birth, by the culture you were accidentally born into.

Your wager presumes a very stupid god, who is easily pleased by simple ego-stroking, and is less rational than a head of cabbage...

Bob the Unbeliever said:

The problem with your wager? Is your assumptions-- of which you nave zero rational reason to make in the first place, apart from the instilled bias you were indoctrinated with from birth, by the culture you were accidentally born into.

Your wager presumes a very stupid god, who is easily pleased by simple ego-stroking, and is less rational than a head of cabbage...

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As to how do you know, I was indoctrinated by anything from birth.
In case you haven't realized, just because someone my have been indoctrinated in a certain way at birth, does not mean when they get older, that they will continue that way.

There are many people who were taught on certain things from birth, but are not continuing on what they were taught from birth. So that will not work, to say I was indoctrinated from birth, a person has their own mind, to do or not to do. When they get older

Would you care to explain, how there are those people, who was indoctrinated from birth about religious, But now they are Atheists.
Care to explain ?
This only shows, just because people were indoctrinated from birth, does not mean they will continue that way, once they get older.
Each person has their own mind whether to continue or not to continue, when they get older.
Of a matter of fact, how many things were you indoctrinated with from birth, but are not continuing now ?

As a gambler, I do know how to place a bet. I always cover all my bases, not leaving ñothing to chance.

Therefore I would rather believe there is God, than not believe in God and die then find there is God.and have God deny me all because all my life I denyed God.

If you deny God, then God has the right to deny you also.
What goes around comes around.
Go Figure

This is my worst objection against any religion. If an adult wants to believe that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, supernatural, dimensionless father figure, loves them so much that He would create a sin for them, and sacrifice a Son for them, then that is their business. But children are hardwired through evolution to follow whatever adults tell them. They are the most vulnerable of marks. Before you create a cognitive dissonance in our children, and before they can intellectually defend themselves, shouldn't you at least make sure that the evidence is objective and supports the belief? Don't you think you should be encouraging their inquisitive mind, instead of stifling it with "God did it all"? Are you so afraid of being exposed as gullible and ignorant? Is this why you ship our kids away to bible camps, bible schools, bible colleges, etc., to maintain the illusion of truth through popularity? Start them young, and keep them dumb, is this your motto?

We teach science to our children and provide them with workable and testable facts. We teach Evolution to our kids and provide them the facts that support the framework of Biology. We teach math, physics, and chemistry to our kids, that can be tested, predicted, and verified. But most of all, we teach our kids how to think critically and logically. These are the most powerful tools in science. Unfortunately religious beliefs teach the opposite. There is no need for any critical thinking at all. If there is a problem, "God " will always be part of the answer.

Forcing children into this kind of intellectual cruelty, is tantamount to child abuse. We have a Constitution that protects adults from religion, I wish that our children had the same kind of protection.

Truly Enlightened said:

This is my worst objection against any religion. If an adult wants to believe that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, supernatural, dimensionless father figure, loves them so much that He would create a sin for them, and sacrifice a Son for them, then that is their business. But children are hardwired through evolution to follow whatever adults tell them. They are the most vulnerable of marks. Before you create a cognitive dissonance in our children, and before they can intellectually defend themselves, shouldn't you at least make sure that the evidence is objective and supports the belief? Don't you think you should be encouraging their inquisitive mind, instead of stifling it with "God did it all"? Are you so afraid of being exposed as gullible and ignorant? Is this why you ship our kids away to bible camps, bible schools, bible colleges, etc., to maintain the illusion of truth through popularity? Start them young, and keep them dumb, is this your motto?

We teach science to our children and provide them with workable and testable facts. We teach Evolution to our kids and provide them the facts that support the framework of Biology. We teach math, physics, and chemistry to our kids, that can be tested, predicted, and verified. But most of all, we teach our kids how to think critically and logically. These are the most powerful tools in science. Unfortunately religious beliefs teach the opposite. There is no need for any critical thinking at all. If there is a problem, "God " will always be part of the answer.

Forcing children into this kind of intellectual cruelty, is tantamount to child abuse. We have a Constitution that protects adults from religion, I wish that our children had the same kind of protection.

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As to where is it written in the Constitution that protects adults from religion ?

I've read the Constitution many times and have not found anything that your saying.

Faithofchristian said:

As to how do you know, I was indoctrinated by anything from birth.
In case you haven't realized, just because someone my have been indoctrinated in a certain way at birth, does not mean when they get older, that they will continue that way.

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Without this indoctrination, you would not rationally consider god-belief to be... rational.

Faithofchristian said:

There are many people who were taught on certain things from birth, but are not continuing on what they were taught from birth. So that will not work, to say I was indoctrinated from birth, a person has their own mind, to do or not to do. When they get older

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Clearly, you did not escape your culture's love of god-beliefs.

Faithofchristian said:

Would you care to explain, how there are those people, who was indoctrinated from birth about religious, But now they are Atheists.
Care to explain ?

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Just like the poor sap, who had been turned into a Newt?

They got better.

Faithofchristian said:

This only shows, just because people were indoctrinated from birth, does not mean they will continue that way, once they get older.
Each person has their own mind whether to continue or not to continue, when they get older.
Of a matter of fact, how many things were you indoctrinated with from birth, but are not continuing now ?

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Some people get better. Others? Not so much... they remain..... "newt-like".

Faithofchristian said:

As a gambler, I do know how to place a bet. I always cover all my bases, not leaving ñothing to chance.

Therefore I would rather believe there is God, than not believe in God and die then find there is God.and have God deny me all because all my life I denyed God.

If you deny God, then God has the right to deny you also.
What goes around comes around.
Go Figure

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You presume a great many things about this "god", none of which make sense, or are in evidence.

But most importantly? You presume this god is easily fooled by someone's silly attempt to "believe just in case".

Or worse-- you presume this god-being will respect this behavior as anything other than pure selfish attempt to avoid what you clearly think is otherwise deserved.

Covered all your bases? Not even close to accurate.

You absolutely ignore the possibility of a Trickster God, who utterly despises people of Faith..... In Native American Traditions, there are several examples of such gods as these-- they would have your head on a proverbial platter, as it were.

Bob the Unbeliever said:

Without this indoctrination, you would not rationally consider god-belief to be... rational.



Clearly, you did not escape your culture's love of god-beliefs.



Just like the poor sap, who had been turned into a Newt?

They got better.



Some people get better. Others? Not so much... they remain..... "newt-like".



You presume a great many things about this "god", none of which make sense, or are in evidence.

But most importantly? You presume this god is easily fooled by someone's silly attempt to "believe just in case".

Or worse-- you presume this god-being will respect this behavior as anything other than pure selfish attempt to avoid what you clearly think is otherwise deserved.

Covered all your bases? Not even close to accurate.

You absolutely ignore the possibility of a Trickster God, who utterly despises people of Faith..... In Native American Traditions, there are several examples of such gods as these-- they would have your head on a proverbial platter, as it were.

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Nope, actually you are the one that is being tricked and you don't even see it happening. That's what's amazing.

Faithofchristian said:

Nope, actually you are the one that is being tricked and you don't even see it happening. That's what's amazing.

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So much for "covering all your bets"....

Sad.

Bob the Unbeliever said:

So much for "covering all your bets"....

Sad.

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Nope actually I do have all my bases covered.
When your laying there in your bed dieing and death standing there, to take you over into the unknown. Ask yourself, What's next for me ?

Faithofchristian said:

Nope actually I do have all my bases covered.

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If you say so. About as believable as your earlier statements (which is to say, not at all).

Faithofchristian said:

When your laying there in your bed dieing and death standing there, to take you over into the unknown. Ask yourself, What's next for me ?

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Why? Likely I'll die in my sleep, or be killed by the Robot Uprising or some other unexpected event. It is very unlikely I'll die in bed with sufficient foreknowledge to think of such silly things as that.

If I was truly afraid of death? I'd not be an atheist, now would I? Indeed-- the single common driving force among all theistic claims, addresses the not-quite universal fear of death. I do find it sad that people waste a great deal of their short lives on worrying about "what's next" instead of worrying about "what's happening right now?" *sigh*

Bob the Unbeliever said:

If you say so. About as believable as your earlier statements (which is to say, not at all).


Why? Likely I'll die in my sleep, or be killed by the Robot Uprising or some other unexpected event. It is very unlikely I'll die in bed with sufficient foreknowledge to think of such silly things as that.

If I was truly afraid of death? I'd not be an atheist, now would I? Indeed-- the single common driving force among all theistic claims, addresses the not-quite universal fear of death. I do find it sad that people waste a great deal of their short lives on worrying about "what's next" instead of worrying about "what's happening right now?" *sigh*

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So you say, likely you die in your sleep, well you still be alive just before you die in your sleep, if you can at all sleep, knowing death standing there looking at you in the face, and you will be entering the unknown.

There's another thing from now until then, it will at some time or another come across your mind, knowing one day you will die and death is just a step a way, into the unknown.

Faithofchristian said:

So you say, likely you die in your sleep, well you still be alive just before you die in your sleep, if you can at all sleep, knowing death standing there looking at you in the face, and you will be entering the unknown.

There's another thing from now until then, it will at some time or another come across your mind, knowing one day you will die and death is just a step a way, into the unknown.

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Yes. So? It's a condition of being alive, and having self-aware abilities.

Unlike you, I have no need to fill such things with fantasies and wishes. If there is something for afters? I'll know (or not) soon enough. Why fret about it? There is literally zip anyone can do, to prevent the inevitable.

And up to now? Nobody-- not a single person-- has truly died a brain death, and returned to tell us about it.

Not.

One.

Example.

Sadly, there are any number of examples of people who's brains have seemingly entered a state that is functionally the same; no matter how much evidence and logic you present them, they cling to wishful non-think.

As if Galileo never did go against the church all those decades ago...

shmogie said:

I agree, mostly with your post and reasoning. The Hebrew and Christian scriptures DO NOT promise immortality to all humans ( a surprise to many Christians, but not to most Jews). THe words "living soul" are a combination of the breath of life and a physical body. Without either, a living soul cannot exist. Heaven cannot be achieved without the acceptance of one, by God. Christ said, " no man comes to the Father, but by me" There have been a few men who were wise and good. Their teachings are valuable when they coincide with Christ's. However, there is only ONE way. Christ also said " I am the way, the truth, and the life ".

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I am well aware of what the Bible says about the soul being the breath of life breathed into the physical body, because have seen this posted here and elsewhere by Christians. I am not sure of the exact verses that say this because I never had time to look them up. In fact, this is the subject of a new thread on another forum I frequent.

Baha’is by contrast believe that the soul continues to exist without a physical body.

I do not believe all souls will have eternal life, I just believe all souls continue to exist... As I explained it elsewhere yesterday:

I believe that Jesus wanted his followers to have eternal life, but that is not about “going to heaven.” It is a quality of life that implies leading a spiritual life and nearness to God.

Christian doctrines made salvation all about going to heaven in order to avoid hell, whereas salvation according to Jesus is gaining eternal life, which refers to a quality of life and not its duration. Jesus said to act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom (John 3:5). Eternal life is the gaining of rewards in this life and in the hereafter; so we can have eternal life in this world and in the spiritual worlds to come. The rewards of this life are the virtues and perfections that man acquires when he is delivered from his animal nature and lives according to his spiritual nature. The rewards of the next world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God. Those who are deprived of these rewards, although their soul continues to exist after death, are considered as dead, because they are spiritually dead.

I believe that “I am the way, the truth, and the life” refers to the dispensation of Jesus Christ, since no man could come to the Father but by Jesus during is dispensation. Jesus was the Only Way.

Truly Enlightened said:

Exactly how can any of "us" back-up your claims without presenting any objective evidence that can support any of your extraordinary claims? Which of you can back it up? I, on the other hand can bury you under the weight of objective evidence, demonstrating what happens when you're dead. Both body and mind. NDE is just that "near death", not "near life". Since you have no evidence supporting an afterlife, it is only your belief.

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All you have is evidence that the body and mind dies. The mind dies because it is associated with the brain, and when the body dies, the brain dies. But the soul lives on past the death of the body...

You are right that this is a belief... There is no objective evidence of the soul because it is not physical. One can have objective evidence only of the physical reality.

Truly Enlightened said:

And, your only evidence is based on faith and ignorance. When we die we are not aware of anything. Are you suggesting that I will somehow become aware that I was wrong and you were right? If this is true, then I won't be dead or unaware anymore. Wouldn't that be a win-win for the both of us?

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It is based upon a belief and a faith in that belief, but it is a reason-based faith, not a blind faith. Blind faith is faith with nothing to back it up. I have plenty of evidence to back up my belief.

That is exactly what I am suggesting. When you die, you will realize you are not dead at all. I have some depictions of that experience if you are interested. It is not from my religious scriptures but I think it is fairly accurate because it is congruent with the beliefs. Let me know if you want to see it and I will post it.

About the win-win, yes and no. There are good reasons why it is better to believe in God and the Messenger of God before you die than waiting till after you die. Let me know if you want to know more about this.

Truly Enlightened said:

I do not know if an afterlife exist or not, but I do know that in death there is no life. Why would you waste 5 years of your life trying to convince rational thinkers, that science fiction and the WWE are real?

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That is a straw man because I have not been spending 5 years of my life trying to convince anyone of anything. It is against the teachings of the Baha’i Faith to try to convince anyone of what we believe. The first principle of the Baha’i Faith is independent investigation of truth, which means everyone has to do their own research and come to their own conclusions. I can answer questions and tell you where to look for the evidence, but I cannot and do not want to convince you of anything, because then it would be MY belief and not YOUR belief. The days where preachers sought to convert people and the days where clergy spoon fed people the Bible are over. This is a new age, the Age of Reason. All people can now think for themselves.

Truly Enlightened said:

What is this soul you speak of? There is no evidence supporting its existence. Just more made up nonsense that enjoys the protection of being unfalsifiable. Science doesn't care what is unfalsifiable, only what is falsifiable. I am certainly not interested in your contorted, convoluted, and fantasy model of where you think this metaphysical soul resides, in our non-metaphysical body. This alone defies logic 101.

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You can choose to believe it is made up if you want to. It does not defy logic 101; in fact it is completely logical that a non-physical entity cannot be proven by science... The soul is a mystery.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

Truly Enlightened said:

Your religion is not special, or exclusive. You are the one making extraordinary claims. You have the burden of proof to support those claims. Your claims are not even based in a material reality, they are based in an immaterial fantasy. They are not based upon any natural phenomena, they are based upon unnatural phenomena. The only other stage of existence, is the one you have created in your very creative mind. What happens when the entire Universe ends, will all the souls simply move to a new dimension? No one is ever prepared for death, no matter what they do. I have accomplished every goal in my life. My wife and I will never want for anything. My children will also never want for anything. I am still loved and respected by family, friends, colleagues, and students. What more can you ask out of life? It is a time to reflect on a life of quiet achievements, sacrifice, love, modesty, kindness, and many moments of joy and happiness. I have done my part for science and society. Let the younger and more inquisitive minds take over. I think that a little time spent with Jack and Jim might even do you some good.

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My religion is special but it is not exclusive, it is inclusive. I am happy to hear that you have gotten what you want out of life. Not all people are that fortunate. I had a difficult childhood so much of my life has been struggle to recover from that, but I did. I never had many goals, except to complete college and have a career. I acquiredvarious college degrees but my career did not go as I had hoped. I have no children or family, except a brother and my husband. I have a wonderful job with wonderful people to work with but I only secured this job for the last eight years of my career. The previous years were less than optimal. I have more money and assets than I will ever need and I could retire today, but I am not ready yet. I could enjoy the rest of my life, travel around the world, etc., but I have more important things to do.

“For indeed if thou dost open the heart of a person for His sake, better will it be for thee than every virtuous deed; since deeds are secondary to faith in Him and certitude in His Reality. XVII, 15.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 133

I spent most of my adult life worrying about the material world and money, what I could amass, which is why I have so much. The last five years I have woken up and realized what is really important in life. I know that I will have an afterlife and I want to be prepared by acquiring spiritual virtues; but more than that, I think other people matter more than I do, since most people are truly lost. I was blessed to stumble upon the Baha’i Faith 47 years ago, but I spent most of those years not doing anything with it and shunning God. Now is the time to turn the ship around and anyone who wants to hop on board I am willing to assist. That is how I plan to spend the rest of my life. I have done the rest; colleges, career, real estate investments, travel, the whole lot.

Truly Enlightened said:

Did you know that 47 out of the 50 top grossing movies of all times are fantasy movies(avatar, superman, avengers, justice league, batman, wonder woman, etc.). Wonder if this implies that we are willing to pay top dollar to watch our fantasies, rather than embrace our reality? What are some of the other stages of existence, and what is your evidence? I also don't accept teachings without the evidence to back them up. Whether an afterlife exist or not, what I do know is that this life will end. It is irrelevant what happens after that from my perspective.

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It won’t be irrelevant when it happens. Logically speaking, if there is a reason for this life and it is preparation for an afterlife, it will be very relevant. But I am not trying to convince you, I am just here with a helping hand if you want one. If not, there are plenty of other people who need one and want one.

“What “oppression” is greater than that which hath been recounted? What “oppression” is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied. This “oppression” is the essential feature of every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow the darkness of the night of error. For this reason, in all chronicles and traditions reference hath been made unto these things, namely that iniquity shall cover the surface of the earth and darkness shall envelop mankind. As the traditions referred to are well known, and as the purpose of this servant is to be brief, He will refrain from quoting the text of these traditions.”
The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 31-32

I was truly blessed, so it is my duty to pass that along to those who are interested. I did not want this grave responsibility and that is one reason I turned away for so many years, but I cannot turn away anymore because I know what I have is the truth from God. Of that I have no doubt.

Maybe I sound just like a Christian to you, but if you really understood what the Baha’i Faith is, you’d be singing another tune.

If there's no evidence of something, why even believe in it via fallible Faith? It literally and rationally makes no sense that someone would place himself in such a position of ill-logic merely for the sake of false comfort.