Ok. That's it. I'm outta here. Base jumping is not the same as walking off a roof without a parachute. And the virgin birth you speak of still took a human effort to make possible. I'm done. Finished. Thank you for helping me stick to science.People do that all the time. It's called 'base jumping,' and it depends entirely on what one is wearing: wing suit or parachute. Oh, and it also depends upon whether one is willing to deal with the legal consequences of making it down alive. It's not legal most places.
............and y'know what? I honestly don't know about anybody passing a law against something that isn't physically possible.
Oh, yeah....and I have personally walked on water, and we can even arrange virgin births. We haven't split any seas yet, or changed water into wine (except by the slow way), but we DO heal lepers and by the standards of Jesus' time, we can certainly revive the dead. We're working on the 'make the lame to walk' bit, and are quite successful at it. We can even cause blind men to see, and the deaf to hear.
So it would be a good idea not to characterize all of the miracles of the Bible as 'physically impossible.' Quite a few of them are not; it is just a matter of knowing how to do it.
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Faith is not evidence. This is why atheism has more of an advantage.
- Thread starter Berlin
- Start date
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
You're absolutely right... there are THOUSANDS of choices. One of those choices is even to write your own addendum! Just pick up a pen and go to town! It's worked in the past, as you should very obviously know.
socharlie
Active Member
it is a bit more complex: " 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God"
The key is "knew" which is "gnontes" - special knowledge that required and usually is not given without effort and cannot be obtained in atheist setting.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
What...moving the goal posts? You did NOT specify that these things had to be done in a manner not understandable, or duplicated, by humans using methods they discovered using the scientific method.
you did NOT, for instance, specify that the one jumping off the roof cannot be wearing a wing suit or a parachute.
This reminds me of an old story about a castaway who prayed to God for deliverance. One day, mid prayer, a couple of fishermen came along in their boat and offered to get the castaway off his rock, but the castaway turned them away, saying that he had faith that God would deliver him. The NEXT day a launch showed up to get him...it was from a large cruise ship. The Castaway again sent them away, saying that God would deliver him. Finally a coast guard helicopter landed next to the castaway, and offered to take him off...and again the Castaway said 'no, thanks..." and it flew away.
Nobody else came, and the castaway died of hunger and thirst. When he got to the Pearly Gates, He met God and was irate; "I was a faithful worshiper, and I prayed to you all the time for rescue, and you never came!"
God said :"I sent a fisherman, a luxury cruise ship and a helicopter. What else did you want?"
Seems to me that those who cry 'science!" as the solution to all things and don't consider that it is POSSIBLE for God to do things in a way that we might be able to describe or comprehend....these people are as silly as those who insist that when there is a seeming conflict between their interpretation of scripture and science, that science should be utterly discarded.
Both sides are using the same argument...and that argument is flawed.
Yes, it can. Did you miss my earlier post?
They haven't gone anywhere. Study religion and theology more.
False. Paganisms are alive and well. Furthermore, if you think that this is accurately represents how Pagan theology really works... well... again, you have a lot of studying to do about religions.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
Or.....God could call prophets today just as He did for the OT and the NT. I do believe that there is more to it than just 'picking up a pen' and 'go[ing] to town."
But that is not the topic of this thread.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
But don't you understand how convenient all of that is? Just like writing in that, in the end times, there will be many who do not believe. In my opinion it is all a ruse. Clever tricks to try and get people to doubt themselves and sign up for the belief system.
"Look! The Bible says right here that you wouldn't believe! It knew it all along, therefore it is ALL TRUE!"
And it is completely convenient that it is esoteric and requires "special knowledge" that "can't be obtained in [an] atheist setting." Then you can blame the atheists for not believing because they insist on remaining "in an atheist setting." What the heck is an "atheist setting" anyway?
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A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
In my honest opinion, God cannot call on prophets today. Because in my realm of knowledge and belief, god doesn't exist.
So, from that frame of reference, it was only ever about picking up a pen and "going to town".
However you are right, not the topic of this thread.
I have never quite understood how atheists came to believe that pagans gods were invented to explain lightning, earthquake etc. Even a cursory look at Egyptian writings or current shamanic religions for example shows otherwise.
InChrist
Free4ever
If there is a Creator God with the ability to create the heavens and the earth, the entire universe, then from my perspective the physical impossibilities you assume to be impossible for a human or in the natural world, would not be so for such Being who controls the physical elements, as the scriptures indicate...
But He said, “The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.” Luke 18:27
For with God nothing will be impossible.” Luke 1:27
I think anyone sincerely looking for evidence for the existence of God finds an overwhelming amount...
http://christinprophecy.org/articles/israel-as-proof-of-gods-existence/
Israel and Prophetic Proof Part I
Prophecy
Phantasman
Well-Known Member
Existence (awareness) is taken for granted. Things just came together and viola, we became a complex biped, with strategically placed organs and a brain to challenge every corner of the Universe.
I guess accidents have consequences. I just see much more complexity in life/awareness than ABC. Just because we cannot see it, or understand it, means that it doesn't exist.
I guess accidents have consequences. I just see much more complexity in life/awareness than ABC. Just because we cannot see it, or understand it, means that it doesn't exist.
Audie
Veteran Member
While I am an atheist, I still agree with your statement. Flawed, indeed.
I think a Dr. R. Feynman quote is relevant here-
"Religion is a culture of faith. Science is a culture of doubt."
I will put in that neither offers more than false certainty.
Some folks have experiential relationships with their god or gods. So it's not scientific evidence, it anecdotal evidence. Of course one can make a much stronger case with scientific evidence. However it hard to deny a spiritual experience you've experienced for yourself.
It's not just atheists that believe this, though; it's a common thing claimed by Westerners who live in monotheist-dominated land in general. In public school, I remember being taught that Paganisms were dead, and that Pagan mythology was an explanation for natural phenomena. The notion of Paganisms being dead is straight up wrong, and brushing off Pagan mythology as merely explanatory is not in keeping with more contemporary study of religion. But... what gets taught in public schools tends to be a few decades (or more) behind the current trends in academia, so it is what it is.
It does mean that whenever I see someone floating arguments like the OP does, though, I basically go with "study more religion."
Possessing faith is proof that God gave you faith and the love you feel for God proves your faith.
I'm just guessing, but I was to saying something like that, it'd be close to what I'd ment.
If you get a real answer from MF please ignore this post.
Naama
Chibi Lilith
Isn't Paganism today different than Paganism is the past though?
Naama
Chibi Lilith
But many people feel faith for their own gods and spirits and such. It doesn't prove that the God we believe exist.
socharlie
Active Member
I do not exactly blame atheists , not completely, they are not really hopeless, belief system does not come first - one forms it based on knowledge, many atheists have closed minds - they have means to overcome that knowledge draw back it just may be harder for some of them, but easier than stepping over their closed minds.
Naama
Chibi Lilith
But how are any of us any different?