Are Catholics Christians?

LuisDantas · Mar 22, 2018

Luca85 said:
Weird...in Italy we say "Not all Catholics are Christian"

Never heard that here in Brazil.

I take it that the saying means that Catholicism is often a received cultural tradition, and it should not be assumed that the recipients believe in Christianity?

If that is what is meant, then I can give personal testimony that the saying is quite correct.

As for the OP: there is no convenient, objective standard to decide who counts as Christian. Many of the best criteria are not suitable for sweeping generalizations over entire denominations, either.

I can't really think of any reasonable criterium that would single out Roman Catholicism as non-Christian, in any case.

JesusMyFriend · Mar 22, 2018

Catholics are definitely Christians. I mean why would anyone doubt that? Christianity is divided in three branches: Catholicism, Protestantism and the Orthodox church. And yep we are all Christians. Even when some people may say we are not. And like it has been said before, we are like the oldest form of Catholicism.

area28 · Mar 22, 2018

OP: Yes of course they are Christians

columbus · Mar 22, 2018

I was born and raised Catholic.
Very very Catholic

I realized early on that I just can't believe the standard Christian boilerplate theology. So, I have spent most of my life as an outsider, but who is really familiar with Mother Church.

The RCC is huge, old, and very diverse. Plenty of the adherents are abysmally poor examples of the Christian community.
And the Church itself began adopting a syncretic culture many centuries ago, which often gets labeled as pagan. Things like Christmas and the veneration of Mary, Mother of God. What that syncretism did was make the church inclusive. It drew people in by making her accessible to a wide variety of people.
That's why the RCC is so gigantic today. Because, for all her many failings, the RCC is the most inclusive of the Christian denominations. She has preached the Message of Jesus in a way that the narrower and more legalistic denominations do not.

I think that the RCC is the most Christian of the big denominations.
Tom

LuisDantas · Mar 22, 2018

JesusMyFriend said:
Catholics are definitely Christians. I mean why would anyone doubt that? Christianity is divided in three branches: Catholicism, Protestantism and the Orthodox church. And yep we are all Christians. Even when some people may say we are not. And like it has been said before, we are like the oldest form of Catholicism.

I just want to point out that there are in fact many other movements outside those three branches claiming to be Christian to some degree or another. IIRC, some actually predate Catholicism.

Muffled · Mar 22, 2018

I believe Catholics vary. Some are born again and some are just nominal Christians.

Muffled · Mar 22, 2018

Ranting said:
Why is it stupid?? MMM Not even Biblical>>MMM >> I believe that the church Thyatira in the bible Is the catholic Church!>> The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. So as I read is future !!! Enjoy

I believe the Catholic Church never headquartered in Thiatria.

Muffled · Mar 22, 2018

Nowhere Man said:
Well considering the Catholic church is the oldest surviving institution in Christianity, it's pretty much a given they are Christians given its foundational history with all modern-day denominations having Catholic roots.

I don't believe the Catholic church teaches the Gospel or Salvation but then I have never been through a catechism class. From the Catholics I have talked to the Gospel and Salvation are news to them.

metis · Mar 22, 2018

Muffled said:
I don't believe the Catholic church teaches the Gospel or Salvation but then I have never been through a catechism class.

It is and always has been a consistent and fundamental message in the CC and is taught at every single mass, especially through the Eucharistic prayers.

Estro Felino · Mar 22, 2018

LuisDantas said:
Never heard that here in Brazil.

I take it that the saying means that Catholicism is often a received cultural tradition, and it should not be assumed that the recipients believe in Christianity?

If that is what is meant, then I can give personal testimony that the saying is quite correct.

Yes...it's a sentence we use to demonize those who define themselves Catholics, but don't put Christianity into practice
'

Neb · Mar 22, 2018

Ex 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
Ex 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

Do I need to explain these verses?

Neb · Mar 22, 2018

Should an evangelical pastor preach Malachi 3:8-10 to his/her congregation?

Kelly of the Phoenix · Mar 22, 2018

Ranting said:
And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death Is the catholic church and the Vatican and the pope >> Thyatira<< >> Mystery Babylon?!?! I think so , not by my thoughts but the sword of GodJesus! So as it say they will not be Raptured with the true church {BrideOf Christ } But will have to go through Jacobs Troubles!>> So Catholics are not Christian !

If one of the first Christian churches isn't Christian, I doubt any who came after could claim it either.

Ranting said:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. So as I read is future !!! Enjoy

Let Jesus tell the church what he finds issues with.

Ranting said:
Matthew 7:21-23 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

There go a helluva lot of Protestant denoms.

Ranting said:
I will post a new thread why so many catholic priests and bishops are homosexual!

Matt 19:12

Ranting said:
its may open some eyes if you have eyes and ears to hear!

The real sin isn't that they're gay but the ones having sex with children. It's a consent issue. Personally, I think we could stop most of it by letting priests get laid. Just because priests have children doesn't mean the kids should automatically get the church property.

Neb said:
Ex 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

I've seen plenty of Protestant billboards with the preachers' photos taking up nearly the entire photo and Jesus nowhere to be found.

Neb said:
Ex 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

Just because Protestants don't have the same kinds of idols Catholics do doesn't mean they don't have them.

Ellen Brown · Mar 22, 2018

I saw this post before I went to bed last night. It is almost noon, the following day. At the time I saw the post, I mused to myself that the post is adolescent. From what I am seeing here in America, being Christian might be of very little value. These days the various beliefs seem to be caught up in hating each other, and that makes me sad. Now, in the 21st century, most people with access to the Internet also have ready access to theological documents of their faiths, be it Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. Factually, the day of the religious authority standing between us and G_d, God, or Allah SWT should be over. They came into existence because people were illiterate, had no books, and were told they were too ignorant to understand.

It is embarrassing to me that we are expected to rely on the word of some authority when I can pick up almost any document and find it printed in my native English, or dozens of other languages. I am well enough educated that understanding what I read should not be an issue. It is obvious from reading religious documents that our creator does not call us to the hatred and disdain for others that I see around me. "And now, oh man, you are without excuse ...."

You may consider this a rant.

metis · Mar 22, 2018

Neb said:
Ex 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
Ex 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

Do I need to explain these verses?

Actually you do because it's no where near as clear-cut as you're implying.

First of all, Catholics, nor the Orthodox, pray to statuary/icons as such an act is strictly prohibited by both churches.

Secondly, what a "graven image" is is never defined, thus subject to all sorts of interpretation.

Thirdly, the cherubim and seraphim were statuary, with some of them on the Ark of the Covenant, so obviously all such statuary cannot be prohibited according to scripture. Also, Moses was ordered by God to have a serpent on the staff he carried into the exodus.

And finally, the real issue is to whom or what does one pray to, and the answer to that with both Catholics and the Orthodox is God.

Ellen Brown · Mar 22, 2018

metis said:
Actually you do because it's no where near as clear-cut as you're implying.

First of all, Catholics, nor the Orthodox, pray to statuary/icons as such an act is strictly prohibited by both churches.

Secondly, what a "graven image" is is never defined, thus subject to all sorts of interpretation.

Thirdly, the cherubim and seraphim were statuary, with some of them on the Ark of the Covenant, so obviously all such statuary cannot be prohibited according to scripture. Also, Moses was ordered by God to have a serpent on the staff he carried into the exodus.

And finally, the real issue is to whom or what does one pray to, and the answer to that with both Catholics and the Orthodox is God.

Actually, I just joined this forum to talk about this very issue. It comes from the Jewish Second Commandment. In my understanding, Christians pretty much ignore it. I don't know what the Jews do with it. Muslims observe it obsessively; forbidding even pictures of close relatives. I know their prohibition includes any animal, including people, and I think it includes plants. I do not know if the Zoroastrians, whom I see as pre-Jews, had any sort of prohibition?

While I am sympathetic to many Muslim beliefs and practices, I would not consider myself to be a good Muslim. There is the issue of Jesus the Christ or Issa PBUH to Muslims. Most Christians interpret him to be "The Son of God", while others say he is God incarnate. I take the long view and say that he and God are so much more than we know. So, like the rest of us, I am just trying to understand in all humility.

metis · Mar 22, 2018

Ellen Brown said:
Actually, I just joined this forum to talk about this very issue. It comes from the Jewish Second Commandment. In my understanding, Christians pretty much ignore it. I don't know what the Jews do with it.

Jews are all over the place on this, including some not even allowing photographs to be taken.

The reason why thee's so much variance has to do with two main things, with one as I said dealing with what exactly is a "graven image" that should not be worshiped, with the other being the "building a fence around the Torah,", namely making the Law even tougher because of our human tendency to "fudge". That "fence" itself also tends to be variable from one Jewish group to another.

I guess the main point is that if it bothers one to venerate religious statuary, then I would suggest that they don't do that.

Ellen Brown · Mar 22, 2018

metis said:
Jews are all over the place on this, including some not even allowing photographs to be taken.

The reason why thee's so much variance has to do with two main things, with one as I said dealing with what exactly is a "graven image" that should not be worshiped, with the other being the "building a fence around the Torah,", namely making the Law even tougher because of our human tendency to "fudge". That "fence" itself also tends to be variable from one Jewish group to another.

I guess the main point is that if it bothers one to venerate religious statuary, then I would suggest that they don't do that.

I wonder if the past illiteracy of the populace has caused some of those in authority to lead us down the "Yellow Brick Road"? The thing about Transubstantiation is one of the nuttier examples. The Muslims have this thing about the Qur'an having to occupy the highest place in the room when not in use. And, yes, I think of that every time I see mine.

Brickjectivity · Mar 22, 2018

Ellen Brown said:
Actually, I just joined this forum to talk about this very issue. It comes from the Jewish Second Commandment. In my understanding, Christians pretty much ignore it. I don't know what the Jews do with it. Muslims observe it obsessively; forbidding even pictures of close relatives. I know their prohibition includes any animal, including people, and I think it includes plants. I do not know if the Zoroastrians, whom I see as pre-Jews, had any sort of prohibition?

Muslims obsessively follow a shallow interpretation of it I think. The real idols are people, such as Imams and Full Gospel Preachers and politicians who divide people to gain power. Graven images are illegal because of what they are used for not because they have any power. Of course the idols are the kings and the caliphs and anything divisive -- like this thing about Catholics not being Christians. What a terrible thing to claim. It is in essence idolatry.

To begin with I think pictures and stones have no ability to attract worshipers, and shallow interpretation fails to take into account what is wrong with idolatry in the first place. The nature of idolatry divides people. Islam in my opinion totally overlooks this, because it is focused upon the actions and behaviors surrounding bowing to Allah. It is stuck with a surface treatment of the law and does not comprehend what the law is about. So is Christianity sometimes. Islam's prohibitions against photographs and statues have very little relation to the law of Moses -- almost zero relevance, just like complaints that Orthodox are somehow worshipping idols. They aren't. Also Islam's complete failure to reign in the power of Imams and various other would-be messiahs is an eternal testament that it has totally misunderstood the nature of idolatry. I can only consider it to be embarrassing. I can't even call it a good attempt at stopping idolatry. To me it is exactly straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel. No wonder everything is going to hell in a hand-basket.

Ellen Brown said:
While I am sympathetic to many Muslim beliefs and practices, I would not consider myself to be a good Muslim. There is the issue of Jesus the Christ or Issa PBUH to Muslims. Most Christians interpret him to be "The Son of God", while others say he is God incarnate. I take the long view and say that he and God are so much more than we know. So, like the rest of us, I am just trying to understand in all humility.

I do not consider Muslims to have the slightest tiniest little inkling of what this command is about, as their religion forces them to be idolaters in many ways if you ask me. Of course they aren't going to ask anybody, because they aren't allowed to. I watch them. They follow caliphs and prophets while they obsess about trivial things like images. I think Imams are worshiped daily whether or not anyone calls it that or calls it worship. Everything must come from an Imam or a Pastor. Idolatry? Hello?

Ellen Brown · Mar 22, 2018

Brickjectivity said:
Muslims obsessively follow a shallow interpretation of it I think. The real idols are people, such as Imams and Full Gospel Preachers and politicians who divide people to gain power. Graven images are illegal because of what they are used for not because they have any power. Of course the idols are the kings and the caliphs and anything divisive -- like this thing about Catholics not being Christians. What a terrible thing to claim. It is in essence idolatry.

To begin with I think pictures and stones have no ability to attract worshipers, and shallow interpretation fails to take into account what is wrong with idolatry in the first place. The nature of idolatry divides people. Islam in my opinion totally overlooks this, because it is focused upon the actions and behaviors surrounding bowing to Allah. It is stuck with a surface treatment of the law and does not comprehend what the law is about. So is Christianity sometimes. Islam's prohibitions against photographs and statues have very little relation to the law of Moses -- almost zero relevance, just like complaints that Orthodox are somehow worshipping idols. They aren't. Also Islam's complete failure to reign in the power of Imams and various other would-be messiahs is an eternal testament that it has totally misunderstood the nature of idolatry. I can only consider it to be embarrassing. I can't even call it a good attempt at stopping idolatry. To me it is exactly straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel. No wonder everything is going to hell in a hand-basket.

I do not consider Muslims to have the slightest tiniest little inkling of what this command is about, as their religion forces them to be idolaters in many ways if you ask me. Of course they aren't going to ask anybody, because they aren't allowed to. I watch them. They follow caliphs and prophets while they obsess about trivial things like images. I think Imams are worshiped daily whether or not anyone calls it that or calls it worship. Everything must come from an Imam or a Pastor. Idolatry? Hello?

My life has been about the desire to know God, though as with other people, I have often gotten side tracked. Being somewhat of a perfectionist has been the way of pain. At this point in life I have a theory that as soon as God sets something up, then the adversary tears at it and makes it all confusing. This is especially evident in the Old Testament, and then as soon as Jesus the Christ died on the cross, confusion set in and the church that followed was not what was intended. Then Muhammad PBUH tried to set something up based upon what God's Angel told him but as soon as he died, Islam went off the trail into great error and excess. I think that many Muslims have a little brother complex against both the Jews and the Christians. Even their forcing women to Hijab was originally a Jewish observance.

Then Martin Luther did some things to try to bring Christianity back in line but it took no time at all until they were burning each other at the stake for silly ideas like the Trinity.

These days, nearing the end of life, no belief system replaces an honest and sincere love for my Creator. Even a common knowledge of Revelations and Isaiah should comfort us, letting us know that this chaos is foretold.

Are Catholics Christians?

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