Is the Bible God's Word?

Buddha Dharma said:

It is also implied in Joshua that the earth is the center of the universe. Joshua 10:13

Why should the Bible be treated like a science book? Even by Christians?

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Joshua 10:13 in the Bible is part of Hebrew works (Jasher/Jashar) that God directed the Bible's authors to use. It's part of the historical nature of the Bible.

In post #55, I stated that Christians from this time were not easily convinced they were wrong about geocentrism because they thought Bible verses backed them up. If Jesus came today and performed miracles for years and was murdered, then atheists would still not believe in God. People today are starting to believe in multiverses without any empirical evidence or tests, which is just plain malarkey. That's just the nature of humans. People won't give up their worldview even if they die.

james bond said:

“And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." Genesis 1:2

This verse showed that it was sphere because water will run off on a flat surface.

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Not that your remark makes any sense, but have you ever heard of lakes?

"He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing."

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Job 26:7

Like a sphere.

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Or like a platter.

Okay, the Bible doesn't state the earth is a sphere exactly, but it is implied that it is.

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No it is not. In fact, as we both know it bluntly says it is a circle.

You're committing a special case or special pleading fallacy.

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Really?

I challenge you to show me where I've done so.

The populace, not just Christians, believed in Ptolomeic astronomy and it taught the geocentric model with circular orbits. I have to admit that Christians back then were part of a group to not readily accept what Copernicus and Kepler discovered.

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So, are you contending that although the Bible says our solar system is heliocentric all it's followers purposely disregarded god's word and believed in a geocentric solar system?

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Skwim said:

Not that your remark makes any sense, but have you ever heard of lakes?


Or like a platter.


No it is not. In fact, as we both know it bluntly says it is a circle.


Really?

Special Pleading:
Applying standards, principles, and/or rules to other people or circumstances, while making oneself or certain circumstances exempt from the same critical criteria, without providing adequate justification. Special pleading is often a result of strong emotional beliefs that interfere with reason.
source
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I challenge you to show me where I've done so.

So, are you contending that although the Bible says our solar system is heliocentric all it's followers purposely disregarded god's word and believed in a geocentric solar system?

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I can't help it if you lack science knowledge, @Skwim . The major bodies of water were oceans covering our planet and that was where an abundance of algae and plankton formed. I did mention Genesis. The best explanation for it is from God's work because there is no other planet in our solar system that has so much water. Not from atheist science explanations. If atheist science has an answer for it, then where is it? We had water above and water below.


I think you want it to be a flat earth in order to contradict the Bible. Isn't that like the Pharisees? I asked you for the flat earth theory and you did not answer my question. When did all of that come about? What was it based on? The Greeks? The Bible isn't a science book since science wasn't understood by many people and wasn't around back then. Thus, it doesn't discuss the earth in cosmological terms. We have to study what it means and apply it to today's world the best we can. It also was applied to people in Copernicus' and Galileo's time. It was applied in everyone's time since it was discovered up until today. Why do you not mention these other civilizations, but only apply to your simple rationalizations of the Bible? The Bible can't change, but atheist science can change their theories all the time. All those changes and civilizations and it still has stood the test of time. That's what I mean by special pleading fallacy.

Paul Chavez said:

I am going to address the 1st potion on morality. BTW thanks for your reply I thought nobody would reply, I am looking forward to having a respectful discussion.
1. As far as turning the other cheek, I ask my self what is the principal involved here? The whole purpose of this is to emphasize non violence. When Jesus was struck he asked why he was struck, but he did not strike back in return. Then you would have to ask yourself also why did you remain there where you saw things were getting heated that led to someone striking you.

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Not everyone, particularly abused women with children on hand have that option. The guy hits her across the face. She can't leave because of the children and is instructed to not hit back (turn the other cheek). He hits her again, but she can't leave because of the children and is instructed to not hit back (turn the other cheek). He hits her again, but she can't leave because of the children and is instructed to not hit back (turn the other cheek). He hits her again, but she can't leave because of the children and is instructed to not hit back (turn the other cheek). He hits her again, but she can't leave because of the children and is instructed to not hit back (turn the other cheek).

Hardy wise advice: "But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."
There are crucial exceptions that aren't even hinted at.

2. As for the casting out devils etc... I personally do not believe that this writing is original, because the oldest manuscripts we have closest to the originals do not contain the longer ending of mark.

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I haven't the faintest idea of what you're talking about.

3. Imagine if everyone in the world obeyed these principals
- Hebrews 13:18 conduct ourselves honestly in all things
- Matthew 22:39 love your neighbor as yourself
- Romans 12:18 be peaceable with all men
- Colossians 3:13 forgiving one another freely
- Acts 10:34-35 Racial harmony
- Genesis 2:15 to care for the earth
- Colossians 3:23 work whole souled at your job

And there are so many other principals that we can apply from the bible but if everyone followed these principals the world would be a better place. You and many others might say this is common sense, but if it is so common how come the vast majority of people on this earth will violate 1 or more of these?

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Are you under the impression that these are unique to the Bible? They are not.

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Paul Chavez said:

So I have a few questions:
1. What is the important message do you think?
2. Do you think if there is a creator he has a reason as to why he designed it the way he did?

I highly respect your concern, because you are causing me to question my faith which I like. You have really cause me to really consider this question.
A. I would say god's word was progressive. God is giving us these good revelations as we wait as time goes by so that man can see that mankind is not capable of directing their own step successfully. Jeremiah 10:23. But time was required to prove this point.
B. Time was also required for god to show the mankind that he is trustworthy and his word was also.
C. the reason that I believe that god designed his word in these different languages is because this would show who is truly interested in really knowing what god has to say. who really wants to put in that effort to demonstrate their love for the creator. Its a given that todays research on ancient text has become a lot easier but still a very broad research non the less.
D. god designed his word in a way that only people with the right heart condition would be able to understand, So if a denomination does not teach the truth its because they do not have the right heart condition
E. I dont think it is quite accurate to call the bible a telephone game actually. So gods message was documented by an inspired prophet. This original copy was copied thousands of times by different people they were copying from the original. So if a person added his own thoughts into his copy what are the odds that all 999 copies would have that unique addition? Slim to none. As for the telephone game would be like a prophet documenting, he gives the original to a person to copy and then the person gives the copy to the next person and so on. So instead of their just being one line of the manuscript tradition there are many.

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1. I guess that's another indication that God is a terrible communicator, because people seem to have a number of different answers to that question. Some would say that the central message is "Love one another". While others could easily conclude that the main message of the bible is "Worship God or else!"
2. If there is a creator God then I seriously doubt that he/she was responsible for the bible or any other religious text I've ever read. If we're going to assume that this creator God did use the bible as the means of spreading His message, then I can only conclude that His intention was to keep human beings as confused as possible.
A. I agree that parts of the bible are progressive... especially parts of the NT. But then there are parts that are far from progressive... like condoning slavery, treating women as second class citizens, murdering homosexuals, etc.
B. But if people can't agree on what God's Word actually means, how can anyone determine if His Word is trustworthy?
C. It seems to me that this 'test' that you suggest God is using to see if people are willing to 'put in the effort' to discover His Word would pretty much force people to place their faith in fallible human beings instead of in God. There is virtually no one today who is fluent in the languages that the original texts were written in or in the ancient texts it was translated into over the centuries. There are a handful of experts who do possess such credentials, but even they can't all agree on exact interpretations or context. That's why we have different versions of the bible. So for virtually everyone it's a matter of placing their trust into the interpretations of fallible human beings. In fact, the ancient writings that are in the bible weren't specified by God to have been inspired by Him. Again, it was a bunch of fallible men who got together and decided what writings should even be included. Add to that the fact that other fallible human beings got together and decided that the Hindu Vedas were inspired by the gods, or that the Koran was inspired by God, or virtually every other religious text ever written was inspired by one god or another. They all make fantastical claims that you have to take on faith, yet God made no effort to make it possible for His creations to determine which claims are true and which are false.
D. I'm not sure how that helps. What is the 'right heart condition'? If there are two denominations that teach opposing interpretations of a bible passage, how is anyone supposed to determine which denomination doesn't have the 'right heart condition' and is not teaching the truth and which one does have the 'right heart condition' and is teaching the truth? Doesn't every denomination believe that they have the 'right heart condition' and that all of the others don't? That holds true for all religions, for that matter.
E. I agree, it's far worse than a simple game of telephone. In a game of telephone you at least have the originator of the message in the room and can confirm with them what the original message actually was. With the bible we have God's Word revealed to prophets, that after unknown numbers of generations is finally written down by unknown individuals, with absolutely no originals available. Centuries later we have a group of fallible human beings who decide which of the ancient writings should be considered actually inspired by God and which ones should not. Any all-knowing all-powerful God would know that such a method of conveying a supposedly very important message would inevitably end up with vast disagreements on who God is and what God wants. And with fallible human beings, such vast disagreements would result in violent and bloody wars waged in God's name.

I'm a fallible human being and I can think of a number of better ways to for an all-powerful God to clearly convey His desires for His creations than using texts written thousands of years ago. I wouldn't just reveal Myself and My Word directly to a select few and then rely of fallible humans who often have ulterior motives to accurately 'spread My Word around'. I'd reveal Myself and My Word directly to every single one of my creations.

Skwim said:

Not everyone, particularly abused women with children on hand have that option. The guy hits her across the face. She can't leave because of the children and is instructed to not hit back (turn the other cheek). He hits her again, but she can't leave because of the children and is instructed to not hit back (turn the other cheek). He hits her again, but she can't leave because of the children and is instructed to not hit back (turn the other cheek). He hits her again, but she can't leave because of the children and is instructed to not hit back (turn the other cheek). He hits her again, but she can't leave because of the children and is instructed to not hit back (turn the other cheek).

Hardy wise advice: "But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."

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There are crucial exceptions that aren't even hinted at.


I haven't the faintest idea of what you're talking about.


Are you under the impression that these are unique to the Bible? They are not.

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Simple answer to that. God also gives us principals to select a good mate. If you follow the instructions given by God you will find a good mate. There is usually red flags with abusive men. Another reason why we should be careful when we select a good mate and why that decision is so important. I'm giving you the guidance the bible gives us to avoid those situations.But if you choose to be presumptuous and not follow God's instructions by your own free will then you will suffer the consequences of your own actions. These crazy situations your putting up can be avoided by applying God's commands. Jesus several times evaded captivity but when it came time to fulfill his role he kept it. So we try to avoid these crazy scenarios at all cost but if it comes up then we are non violent, although to some self defense is a matter of conscience. Plus at the same time I don't know how helpful it would be for her to hit him back, what would be the end result. But I would say if it is a life threatening situation she can definitely defend herself only to escape the situation

Skwim said:

Which you know to be a fact because ________________________________________________________________ .

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the Holy Spirit has no error. If you approach the Bible with a pure heart, you will find the Bible to be perfect and free of error.

Paul Chavez said:

Simple answer to that. God also gives us principals to select a good mate. If you follow the instructions given by God you will find a good mate.

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One word: Naive

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Skwim said:

One word: Naive

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Is it really? a few of my favorite bible principals
Proverbs 14:15 the naive person believes every word but the shrewd one ponders each step
Proverbs 21:5 the plans of the diligent surely lead to success but all who are hasty surely head for poverty
Proverbs 1:5 a wise person listens and takes in more instruction. A man of understanding acquires skillful direction.

If these principals are common sense how come majority of people do not apply these principals

give some of the bible principals a chance, you have to remember that when Jesus spoke his words he had the OT in mind.

syo said:

the Holy Spirit has no error. If you approach the Bible with a pure heart, you will find the Bible to be perfect and free of error.

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Really. Assuming you approach the Bible with a pure heart, I'm sure you have a rational explanation for these errors.

OR



OR

Or (the order of creation)




OR
OR

Skwim said:

Really. Assuming you approach the Bible with a pure heart, I'm sure you have a rational explanation for these errors.

2 Samuel 8:4
And David took from him 1,700 horsemen, and 20,000 foot soldiers. And David hamstrung all the chariot horses but left enough for 100 chariots.

1 Chronicles 18:4
4 David took 1000 chariots, 7000 chariot drivers, and 20,000 soldiers from Hadadezer. David also crippled most of Hadadezer’s horses that were used for pulling chariots. But David saved enough horses to pull 100 chariots.

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OR

Genesis 11:12
12 When Arphaxad was 35 years old, his son Shelah was born.

Luke 3:35-36
35 Nahor was the son of Serug.
Serug was the son of Reu.
Reu was the son of Peleg.
Peleg was the son of Eber.
Eber was the son of Shelah.
36 Shelah was the son of Cainan.
Cainan was the son of Arphaxad.
Arphaxad was the son of Shem.
Shem was the son of Noah.
Noah was the son of Lamech.​

OR

2 Kings 24:8
8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

2 Chronicles 36:9
9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord.

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Or (the order of creation)

Genesis 1:25-27
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 2:18-19
18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.​

OR

2 Samuel 21:19
There was war with the Philistines again at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.

1 Chronicles 20:5
5 And there was war with the Philistines again, and Elhanan the son of Jair ]killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.

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OR

2 Kings 8:26
26 Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

2 Chronicles 22:2
2 Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.


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Find a meaningful variant that changes doctrine. These we can plainly catch the variant, but even Bart Ehrman admits that the variants do not change any major doctrines. we can trace and correct the variants in scripture.

Paul Chavez said:

Find a meaningful variant that changes doctrine. These we can plainly catch the variant, but even Bart Ehrman admits that the variants do not change any major doctrines. we can trace and correct the variants in scripture.

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Nice, but irrelevant. Errors are errors no matter how they're fudged or dismissed, errors that syo says don't exist: "the Bible [is] perfect and free of error."

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Paul Chavez said:

we can trace and correct the variants in scripture

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I don't believe in variants, since I believe they all have answers given enough study. For example, the one about David's horsemen may be influenced by what he possessed before and after he reached Hamath(1 Chronicles 18:3-4), the one about Cainaan perhaps a matter of exclusion(Ezra 2:61-62), the one about Jehoiachin a matter of reference, the latter referring to Nebuchadnezzar's reign of eight years at the time(2 Kings 24:12), the one about creation perhaps a form of literary chiasmus(Gen. 2:8-9), the one about Lahmi seemingly a matter of taking up the name of one's relative(cmp. Omri/Baasha 1Ki. 15:33,16:23-24;28, 2Chr. 16:1), and the one about Ahab a matter of attribution(12 + 8 + 22 = 42 years of age in the house of Ahab - 2Chr. 22:3-4).

To a Christian, Christ is God's Word, not a book. In Protestantism, bibliolatry is a huge problem, just like in much of Islam.

I think that the Torah is, but not the Bible.

Rajagopalanchandu said:

Is the Bible God's Word?

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Yes it is indeed and a Baha'i sees in this way;

Inscription in the Old Bible Written by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in Persian;

"THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá Abbás."

Regards Tony

From looking at the bible at the highest level I see the story of a project initiated by god and that remains unfinished.

As the project progresses (according to the bible) the project repeatedly fails to such degrees that god is forced to take what at best one would call knee jerk reactions, to try and correct things. After each reaction things deteriorate again:

the expulsion from the garden, the flood, the Exodus and genocide, the Jesus appearance.

For me if the bible is the word of god then he isn't much of a god.

Of course that doesn't mean there isn't a god. It might just be that the ancients weren't very smart when it came to passing on messages. And that the compilers of the bible were just nasty control freeks with their own agenda. (but some credit for including some nice literature in places).

Skwim said:

Really. Assuming you approach the Bible with a pure heart, I'm sure you have a rational explanation for these errors.

2 Samuel 8:4
And David took from him 1,700 horsemen, and 20,000 foot soldiers. And David hamstrung all the chariot horses but left enough for 100 chariots.

1 Chronicles 18:4
4 David took 1000 chariots, 7000 chariot drivers, and 20,000 soldiers from Hadadezer. David also crippled most of Hadadezer’s horses that were used for pulling chariots. But David saved enough horses to pull 100 chariots.

​

OR

Genesis 11:12
12 When Arphaxad was 35 years old, his son Shelah was born.

Luke 3:35-36
35 Nahor was the son of Serug.
Serug was the son of Reu.
Reu was the son of Peleg.
Peleg was the son of Eber.
Eber was the son of Shelah.
36 Shelah was the son of Cainan.
Cainan was the son of Arphaxad.
Arphaxad was the son of Shem.
Shem was the son of Noah.
Noah was the son of Lamech.​

OR

2 Kings 24:8
8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

2 Chronicles 36:9
9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord.

​

Or (the order of creation)

Genesis 1:25-27
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 2:18-19
18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.​

OR

2 Samuel 21:19
There was war with the Philistines again at Gob, and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.

1 Chronicles 20:5
5 And there was war with the Philistines again, and Elhanan the son of Jair ]killed Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.

​

OR

2 Kings 8:26
26 Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

2 Chronicles 22:2
2 Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.


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Skwim,

To me, clearly some of these errors are due to either translators or copyist. (such as possibly for your 1st, 3rd, and last examples.) I believe the original manuscripts, in the original languages were without error.
If you will look at both verses you gave regarding the giant being killed, they both say it was the brother of Goliath - not Goliath as you show for 2 Samuel 21:19 So I don't even see a problem here.
As far as order of creation. I don't think the 2nd part is giving the order. I think he is just saying he had created the animals and he took them to Adam to see what he would call them. I am pretty sure you won't agree with me on this, but that is how I see it.
As far as the one regarding Arphaxad- I think it was common practice to refer to a grandson as a son also. I would have to search but I think there are some other examples of this occurring in other places.

TrueBeliever37 said:

Skwim,

To me, clearly some of these errors are due to either translators or copyist. (such as possibly for your 1st, 3rd, and last examples.) I believe the original manuscripts, in the original languages were without error.

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But that doesn't help those reading these mistakes in their Bible. Worse yet, it points out the very real likelihood that other statements in the Bible are in error, and possibly errors of significant importance. What it boils down to is that a book with errors, whether A Brief History of Time or the Bible, is untrustworthy.

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Rajagopalanchandu said:

Is the Bible God's Word?

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The question is rather if it is so what else can you expect?

Does anyone here expect a book of God must bear a supernatural marking?