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Christians: The Doctrine of Inclusion

Elvendon

Mystical Tea Dispenser
Katzpur said:
Actually, so do I. I just believe it will be a very relative few, and that these will be those souls who, having received a perfect knowledge of Jesus Christ through the Holy Ghost, nevertheless deny Him. These will reject Christ at every conceivable opportunity, even after having come to know He is God's Son and their only hope for salvation. Of course, unlike Eastern Orthodoxy, Mormonism teaches that there will be a time between death and the resurrection when those who did not have the chance to hear of Christ during their lifetimes will have that opportunity. So for us, the salvation of good people who spent their lives as non-Christians is not quite as cast in concrete as it is for fundamentalist Christians. It also strikes me as being a far more just way for God to judge mankind.

I'm not sure if that's true... Eastern Orthodoxy, from what I have read, teaches that souls can undergo metanoia after death just as they can before it. Otherwise, what's the point in praying for their salvation? :rolleyes:
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Elvendon said:
I'm not sure if that's true... Eastern Orthodoxy, from what I have read, teaches that souls can undergo metanoia after death just as they can before it. Otherwise, what's the point in praying for their salvation? :rolleyes:
Then I suspect that the Orthodox doctrine on this subject is probably similar to the Roman Catholic belief in Purgatory. In my opinion, Purgatory probably originated with the same doctrine in the Spirit World that the Latter-day Saints believe in. I find it interesting that the Mormons, Catholic (and, if you are correct, Orthodox) Christians believe that there is, in fact, something that the living can do for the dead, while the Protestants do not.
 

sparkyluv

Member
Elvendon said:
Well...



http://www.theblackadder.co.uk/jokes/JokeHellEndothermicExothermic.html

:D

In all seriousness - I personally believe that some people will go to hell eternally - people who are determined to turn away from God and everything he represents. Essentially, whether we exist in heaven or hell depends entirely upon our relationship and view of God and what God feels. If we accept and love God, his love for us will be an eternal, warm, blissful bath. If, on the other hand, we reject and despise him, then his love will torture us eternally.

This is, according to the Eastern Orthodox Church which relies upon traditions maintained from before the time the scriptures were written from the first generation of Christians is the original belief of the first disciples and the teaching of Jesus.

Now I want to ask you a question sparkyluv... have you ever spoken in church?
What do you mean spoken in church? Spoken as in preached? If that's what you mean then, no.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
sparkyluv said:
Has anyone else heard of this besides me? The paper in my city wrote an article about it (I'd post it, but you have to pay to see it) and it's from a man named Carlton Pearson who claims that (1) Jesus came to save mankind and (2) everyone is going to heaven. This everyone includes muslims, buddhists, hindus, atheists, etc

Pitting grace....

In short...he calls Jesus a liar.

against your interpretation of Jesus is not a wise move.

Portrait of a Madman
Christian responsibility to beg for mercy
God's Judgement
The Gospel of Jesus Christ
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
sparkyluv said:
People's sins send people to hell. You want a life apart from God, that's what you get. Don't complain. No, not the whole world knows...

Herein lies the problem.

Who really knows what heaven or hell will be like? If people really, truly knew that being "apart from God" meant what you think that it means, whether baselessly misinterpreting some ancient text, deriving a real understanding of what the text says and means about hell, or going there yourself and coming back to warn everyone.

You may think, along with Dante and Augustine with Platonic presuppositions, that hell is a place "apart from God" consisting of eternal torment and anguish in some kind of fire, and you've said that people go there, perhaps unknowingly, for as little a sin as not believing in Jesus Christ, despite the fact that these people have done nothing else that deserves divine attention. But if a person really knew this, who in their right mind would actually want and get a life apart from God? It's a problem of consent.

We have mental hospitals for folks who want to hurt themselves willingly. It's not natural. Fortunately for us, there is no one calling for insane assylums for those who simply don't believe in Jesus, and the fanatics who think that the whole world is going to hell for piddly things are comfortably pushed to the side.

What little power you place on the cross, and how little you think that God regards her creation.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
sparkyluv said:
Tell me your question again so I can answer it, unless it's the stupid, sarcastic one.

Are you begging God with all of your heart for her to change her mind about sending just about everyone on earth to hell, particularly if you confess that everything that you ask for in the name of Jesus you will receive?

If not, how can you embrace such an inhuman theology without doing all that you can to spare your fellow human being from an eternity of torment?
 

sparkyluv

Member
angellous_evangellous said:
Are you begging God with all of your heart for her to change her mind about sending just about everyone on earth to hell, particularly if you confess that everything that you ask for in the name of Jesus you will receive?

If not, how can you embrace such an inhuman theology without doing all that you can to spare your fellow human being from an eternity of torment?
What inhuman theology are you talking about?
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
sparkyluv said:
What inhuman theology are you talking about?

You can answer your own stupid question.

sparkyluv said:
Like I've said I don't know how many times, and I'm not the only one to say this, but God doesn't send anyone to hell. People's sins send people to hell. You want a life apart from God, that's what you get. Don't complain. No, not the whole world knows about Jesus and Jesus said himself that only a few people would find the road that leads to eternal life.
 

sparkyluv

Member
angellous_evangellous said:
Herein lies the problem.

Who really knows what heaven or hell will be like? If people really, truly knew that being "apart from God" meant what you think that it means, whether baselessly misinterpreting some ancient text, deriving a real understanding of what the text says and means about hell, or going there yourself and coming back to warn everyone.

You may think, along with Dante and Augustine with Platonic presuppositions, that hell is a place "apart from God" consisting of eternal torment and anguish in some kind of fire, and you've said that people go there, perhaps unknowingly, for as little a sin as not believing in Jesus Christ, despite the fact that these people have done nothing else that deserves divine attention. But if a person really knew this, who in their right mind would actually want and get a life apart from God? It's a problem of consent.

We have mental hospitals for folks who want to hurt themselves willingly. It's not natural. Fortunately for us, there is no one calling for insane assylums for those who simply don't believe in Jesus, and the fanatics who think that the whole world is going to hell for piddly things are comfortably pushed to the side.

What little power you place on the cross, and how little you think that God regards her creation.
What do you know about what I think? Here you go telling me to not pass judgement when you're doing the same thing to me. I base beliefs on the bible, which describes what heaven and hell are like. I don't base my beliefs on what I think it should be or how I think God should react towards His creation. He's set the standards, He's told people how they can get to Him, and he's firm in that. A little sin "such as not believing in Jesus" is not a little sin in the eyes of the Lord. You call yourself a bible-believing Christian, so I can only assume that you know that. "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Is God-breathed scripture, those aren't my worlds. That sin doesn't just include "not believing in Christ", but it includes a whole lot more (Romans 1:18-20).
 

sparkyluv

Member
angellous_evangellous said:
You can answer your own stupid question.
What you think of my religion is your own problem. It's God's creation, he has the ultimate say on who goes where and when. I embrace my "inhuman theology", my Lord and Savior, because has been good to me and he deserves all the glory and praise. His has never failed me, nor has he broken any promises. Just because you don't like the idea of people going to hell because they are not clean of their sin doesn't make it inhuman.

Anyways, back on topic.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
sparkyluv said:
It's God's creation, he has the ultimate say on who goes where and when.

I completely agree.

I embrace my "inhuman theology", my Lord and Savior, because has been good to me and he deserves all the glory and praise. His has never failed me, nor has he broken any promises.

Good for you. I believe that Jesus will be as good to everyone else according to the measure of grace that is Divine.

Just because you don't like the idea of people going to hell because they are not clean of their sin doesn't make it inhuman.

What makes it inhuman and inhumane is that no humane court would sentence a person to burn for eternity for stealing a pack of gum. Punishment fits the crime, and no crimes can justify your theology.

If you want to claim that God is loving, you need to prove that God is just. I believe that God will love you the same whether your claim is justifable or not.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
I base beliefs on the bible, which describes what heaven and hell are like. I don't base my beliefs on what I think it should be or how I think God should react towards His creation. He's set the standards, He's told people how they can get to Him, and he's firm in that. A little sin "such as not believing in Jesus" is not a little sin in the eyes of the Lord. You call yourself a bible-believing Christian, so I can only assume that you know that.

Perhaps you've mistranslated the Greek or you've ignored some critical social-scientific or textual problem. It can happen to the best of us.

If you think that hell is eternal, see Earle Ellis' essay in Eschatology in Bible and Theology. He lists all the Greek words related to hell in the NT and doubtlessly concludes that the Bible does not indicate that there is eternal suffering in hell.

Despite all of the excellent work by Ellis and many others (see his footnotes), I suspect that you've developed your views not from Scripture, but from dogmatic proclaimations from a pastor or other teacher who simply claims that what they believe and what you should believe is correct biblical interpretation, when they themselves slept through class in seminary.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Is God-breathed scripture, those aren't my worlds. That sin doesn't just include "not believing in Christ", but it includes a whole lot more (Romans 1:18-20).

For example, here you've provided a verse that says nothing whatsoever about hell. Sin produces death. Every human being will die because of sin, but this does not mean that anyone will go to hell. The wages of sin for every believer is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life. If God gave you the gift of everlasting life on the basis (as you think) belief in Christ, is it beyond the power of God to impart the same grace on a Buddhist or Muslim who dutifully follows their religion and seeks God's face their whole life?

While we were enemies of God, Christ died for us.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
joeboonda said:
Hi, I don't know what all Sparky believes, but I don't believe that people who never heard of Jesus or who lived before Jesus go to Hell. The idea of Hell is repugnant and terribly hard for me to accept, yet Jesus taught that the wicked would go to a place of eternal punishment. I know God's thoughts are not our thoughts, nor His ways, our ways, and they are above my understanding. I do believe His Word and I know that God is Love, and Just, and Holy, and I trust Him to deal fairly, justly, rightly, mercifully, gracefully, and lovingly with each person, however that may work out. I do understand that the wicked go to everlasting punishment in Hell, and the righteous to everlasting life with Him.

Jesus did no such thing. Where do you think that he said that?:eek:
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
sparky said:
Like I've said I don't know how many times, and I'm not the only one to say this, but God doesn't send anyone to hell. People's sins send people to hell. You want a life apart from God, that's what you get. Don't complain. No, not the whole world knows about Jesus and Jesus said himself that only a few people would find the road that leads to eternal life.

Don't you have a reference somewhere on this thread to the activity of God as judge? If you think that people stand before God, are judged, and sent to hell, you most certainly believe that God sends people to hell for their sins. Somehow you may morbidly think that people deserve to go to hell for not believing in Jesus, but God could simply save them through Jesus Christ anyway instead of sending them to hell.

Ultimately, the activity of damnation or salvation is in God's hands, not ours. If you think that it is in our hands, you should start saving other people, creating world peace, or engage in some other Divine activity.

EDIT: I do have, I think, some excellent threads on this topic if you or other folks want to think about this stuff from other points of view.

Angellous vs Angellous: Nature of Hell
Portrait of a Madman
Christian responsibility to beg for mercy
God's Judgement
The Gospel of Jesus Christ
 

Elvendon

Mystical Tea Dispenser
Katzpur said:
Then I suspect that the Orthodox doctrine on this subject is probably similar to the Roman Catholic belief in Purgatory. In my opinion, Purgatory probably originated with the same doctrine in the Spirit World that the Latter-day Saints believe in. I find it interesting that the Mormons, Catholic (and, if you are correct, Orthodox) Christians believe that there is, in fact, something that the living can do for the dead, while the Protestants do not.

Yes... you LDS guys are probably more orthodox than most people think :D

What do you mean spoken in church? Spoken as in preached? If that's what you mean then, no.

Spoken at all. Also, have any women ever spoken (as in preached) in your church?
 

joeboonda

Well-Known Member
You're going to have to work with me on this, Mike. You have said that those who don't believe in Christ are already condemned and must pay for their own sins in Hell forever. You also said that you don't believe that people who never heard of Jesus will go to Hell. So, where do you believe these people will go since they obviously don't believe in Jesus Christ? Will God require something else of them instead of a belief in Christ?

Right I did say that all people who never heard of people will not go to Hell. I believe some go to Heaven and some to Hell. I believe they will be judged according to the light which was given them. What light do they have? Romans says they have their conscience, meaning 'with knowledge', God's laws being written in their heart. When they sin, they do it 'with knowledge', as all people know not to murder, rape, lie, steal, etc. They also have the creation, which shows they have a creator. So, when a person who has not heard of Christ but has this light realizes they do in fact commit sin, and ask God to forgive them, I believe He does and the blood of Christ is applied to them. But many do not, they do wickedly and are in darkness, as Jesus said that wide is the way that leads to destruction and many go that way, to destruction, not saved but not exalted, but to destruction. I even believe many have heard 'of' Christianity, but not been allowed or able to study and understand it for themselves, or have had the true gospel presented to them in a way they could truly understand it, thus no conviction of the Holy Spirit, thus they did not reject it as they did not have a chance to really reject it. God won't judge a person for rejecting Christ if they have never heard of Him, or did not ever hear the true Gospel and were never convicted of the Holy Spirit to believe it. He will judge them on the light given them and what they did with it. However, the Grace of the Gospel is far better, it is what we are commanded to proclaim to the whole world so they may hear it and may know they are saved freely by trusting in Christ, that He paid for their sins. I would rather have the full assurance of knowing Christ paid for my sins and I accepted that free gift and I 'have passed from death to life', that I now have eternal life, and I know it absolutely for sure and don't have to worry about it. What peace, what joy, what assurance!

I am on lunch and gotta get back to work, so this was not real thorough, but here is a link that explains what I believe a bit better if you are interested:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/godfair.html
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
sparkyluv said:
Has anyone else heard of this besides me? The paper in my city wrote an article about it (I'd post it, but you have to pay to see it) and it's from a man named Carlton Pearson who claims that (1) Jesus came to save mankind and (2) everyone is going to heaven. This everyone includes muslims, buddhists, hindus, atheists, etc

He preaches that:


This doctrine completely disregards verses like:
Matthew 7:13-14 <---- hello?
John 14:6
John 3:36 <---- hello?
Mark 10:14-15
Romans 6:23
1 Corinthians 1:18
Romans 10:9
Romans 1:16-17
Romans 3:22-24
Romans 3:28
John 3:3
John 6:43-45
John 6:53
all of Hebrews 11

In short...he calls Jesus a liar.

I think this is a pretty bold statement to make. It's proud and full of hubris. Not the kind of attitude that the Bible teaches. What happened to a contrite heart?

There is so much more imbedded in scripture about grace, salvation, love, undeserved mercy, patience, forbearance, and God searching for God's people until God finds them, than there is about eternal condemnation. Who's calling Jesus a liar here?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
sparkyluv said:
Tell me your question again so I can answer it, unless it's the stupid, sarcastic one.
Well, since you obviously know what question I'm referring to, and refuse to answer it, I think the least you can do is explain why you find it stupid and sarcastic. If I had the nerve to label another poster's question as stupid and sarcastic, I would have a damn good reason for doing so, and I'd be willing to explain that reason.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Katzpur said:
Then I suspect that the Orthodox doctrine on this subject is probably similar to the Roman Catholic belief in Purgatory. In my opinion, Purgatory probably originated with the same doctrine in the Spirit World that the Latter-day Saints believe in. I find it interesting that the Mormons, Catholic (and, if you are correct, Orthodox) Christians believe that there is, in fact, something that the living can do for the dead, while the Protestants do not.

I find this a rather loving concept.
 
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