Do Christians think it is possible to reject their logic/arguments at face value?

sayak83 said:

Do you think that the Bible, among the various theistic scriptures that exist, does a good job of making God understandable? I will confess that that has not been my experience.

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Probably no more so (nor any less so) than other theistic scriptures. God makes God understandable, to the extent that He reveals Himself. Comparing personal experiences with the experiences of others via the various scriptures is one way of corroborating that you're on the right track, and can help you put into words things that might otherwise remain ineffable.

For instance, if your experience of that which we call a tree is pretty similar to other experiences of people who have experienced what they are calling a "tree," then you not only have a word to assign to your experience ("tree"), but you can be more confident that your experience reflects some kind of objective reality, and is not just some hallucination or illusion. But if you were to just read about a tree, without any personal experience of one, you might not really understand the full essence of "tree-ness".

So the various descriptions of divine experiences related in the scriptures of the world are not necessarily illuminative in and of themselves, but they can help make similar personal experiences of God (by whatever name one calls Him) understandable.

Axe Elf said:

Probably no more so (nor any less so) than other theistic scriptures. God makes God understandable, to the extent that He reveals Himself. Comparing personal experiences with the experiences of others via the various scriptures is one way of corroborating that you're on the right track, and can help you put into words things that might otherwise remain ineffable.

For instance, if your experience of that which we call a tree is pretty similar to other experiences of people who have experienced what they are calling a "tree," then you not only have a word to assign to your experience ("tree"), but you can be more confident that your experience reflects some kind of objective reality, and is not just some hallucination or illusion. But if you were to just read about a tree, without any personal experience of one, you might not really understand the full essence of "tree-ness".

So the various descriptions of divine experiences related in the scriptures of the world are not necessarily illuminative in and of themselves, but they can help make similar personal experiences of God (by whatever name one calls Him) understandable.

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Yet the thrust of the Bible is God acted in a very specific manner in history by making Israel chosen among all nations, constructing laws for them and then (in standard Christian view) incarnating his second person among them such that the life, death and resurrection of this incarnation is the only authentic way a man can reconcile with God and participate in his coming Kingdom. That looks severely specific and exclusivist, does it not?

Buddha Dharma said:

So you don't think a non-Christian can reject the Bible out of not being convinced?

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No, I do.

You asked, "(Is it) in fact possible people can reject Christian claims and arguments because they aren't convinced?"
And I answered "Of course!"

For many reasons, one of which is Jehovah God's standards on sexual morality. Another is CD / ToL evolution.

But if a person takes enough time to learn what the Bible really teaches (about the Earth, what the future holds for mankind, etc.) .....it becomes pretty convincing! And then, in coming to know Jehovah, and by living according to His standards (of morality, etc.), you can actually feel His spirit helping you and guiding you in life! (James 4:8...notice what needs to come first.)

All of this takes time though, and most aren't interested in the investment.

sayak83 said:

Yet the thrust of the Bible is God acted in a very specific manner in history by making Israel chosen among all nations, constructing laws for them and then (in standard Christian view) incarnating his second person among them such that the life, death and resurrection of this incarnation is the only authentic way a man can reconcile with God and participate in his coming Kingdom. That looks severely specific and exclusivist, does it not?

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Looks can be deceiving. It's certainly possible that the incarnation of God as a man, His subsequent death, and His resurrection is the only mechanism by which man's human nature can be reconciled with God's divine nature such that man can now enter into direct fellowship with God. It's also possible that this mechanism may operate passively for anyone truly seeking God, without the seeker even being aware that Jesus had anything to do with his ability to enter into the presence of God. Jesus Himself said something like that.

"And I have other sheep [beside these] that are not of this fold. I must bring and impel those also; and they will listen to My voice and heed My call, and so there will be [they will become] one flock under one Shepherd." --John 10:16 (Amplified Bible)

So no, I don't see any inherent exclusivity to the message of the Bible--and it doesn't seem rational to me that exclusivity would be the practice of an omnibenevolent God.

Axe Elf said:

Looks can be deceiving. It's certainly possible that the incarnation of God as a man, His subsequent death, and His resurrection is the only mechanism by which man's human nature can be reconciled with God's divine nature such that man can now enter into direct fellowship with God. It's also possible that this mechanism may operate passively for anyone truly seeking God, without the seeker even being aware that Jesus had anything to do with his ability to enter into the presence of God. Jesus Himself said something like that.

"And I have other sheep [beside these] that are not of this fold. I must bring and impel those also; and they will listen to My voice and heed My call, and so there will be [they will become] one flock under one Shepherd." --John 10:16 (Amplified Bible)

So no, I don't see any inherent exclusivity to the message of the Bible--and it doesn't seem rational to me that exclusivity would be the practice of an omnibenevolent God.

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Firstly I admire your views on this immensely. You are certainly correct that an omnibenevolent God will not be so exclusive.

However,
1) Can you make a case of the rational plausibility of this mechanism of reconciliation between God and Man?

2)Further, we Hindus believe that there is no fundamental alienation between Man and God in the first place. Hence some universal action on part of God to breach some essential divide is unnecessary. Can you provide a rational justification that shows otherwise?

3) Finally, it takes quite a lot of interpretation to get the non-exclusivist message out of the Bible. Should it not be much clearer?

For example here is a clear statement from Gita

Whoever desires to honor with belief
Whatever worshiped form,
On him I bestow
Immovable faith.

He, who, endowed with this faith,
Desires to propitiate that forn,
Receives from it his desires
Because those desires are decreed
by Me.

Those men who worship, directing
their thoughts to Me,
Whose minds do not go elsewhere;
For them, who are constantly steadfast,
I secure what they lack and preserve
what they already possess.

Even those who worship other gods
With faith,
Also worship Me, Arjuna,
Though they do so in ignorance.
Those who are devoted to the gods go
to the gods;


Those who are devoted to the ancestors
go the the ancestors;
Those who are devoted to the spirits
go to the spirits;
Those who worship Me come surely
to Me.

I am the same (Self) in all beings;
There is none disliked or dear to Me.
But they who worship Me with devotion
Are in Me, and I am also in them.


Do you disagree with any of the statements above?
If not, can you point to any such clear statements of non-exclusivity in the Bible?

Buddha Dharma said:

I've noticed a rather odd thing that some Christians seem to do. They say that people reject their faith because of intolerance, extreme ideologies, because they want to sin, or something like that.

While I don't discount that may in fact happen. There may be people that reject Christianity for certain motives. I find myself having to ask: do Christians think it is possible their reasoning could ever fail to convince somebody?

Does that occur to some of these Christians that make such statements? That it is in fact possible people can reject Christian claims and arguments because they aren't convinced?

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I certainly think it is possible that people reject Christian claims because they are not convinced. I don't think anyone is or can be convinced by human reasoning alone, because truly being convinced or having a true change of heart toward Jesus Christ as the Savior only happens by the convicting power of the Holy Spirit.

sayak83 said:

Firstly I admire your views on this immensely. You are certainly correct that an omnibenevolent God will not be so exclusive.

However,
1) Can you make a case of the rational plausibility of this mechanism of reconciliation between God and Man?

2)Further, we Hindus believe that there is no fundamental alienation between Man and God in the first place. Hence some universal action on part of God to breach some essential divide is unnecessary. Can you provide a rational justification that shows otherwise?

3) Finally, it takes quite a lot of interpretation to get the non-exclusivist message out of the Bible. Should it not be much clearer?

For example here is a clear statement from Gita

Whoever desires to honor with belief
Whatever worshiped form,
On him I bestow
Immovable faith.

He, who, endowed with this faith,
Desires to propitiate that forn,
Receives from it his desires
Because those desires are decreed
by Me.

Those men who worship, directing
their thoughts to Me,
Whose minds do not go elsewhere;
For them, who are constantly steadfast,
I secure what they lack and preserve
what they already possess.

Even those who worship other gods
With faith,
Also worship Me, Arjuna,
Though they do so in ignorance.
Those who are devoted to the gods go
to the gods;


Those who are devoted to the ancestors
go the the ancestors;
Those who are devoted to the spirits
go to the spirits;
Those who worship Me come surely
to Me.

I am the same (Self) in all beings;
There is none disliked or dear to Me.
But they who worship Me with devotion
Are in Me, and I am also in them.


4. Do you disagree with any of the statements above?
5. If not, can you point to any such clear statements of non-exclusivity in the Bible?

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That is quite an assignment to undertake after midnight. It's possible that I will also be unable to really attend to it before Tuesday night. So I'll give you the Reader's Digest version now, and hope that I remember to address these tasks in more detail when I have the time to do them justice.

1) Yes.
2) Yes and no. I can provide a rational alternative interpretation, but I cannot provide any proof that one interpretation is right and another is wrong.
3) It seems pretty clear to me already, but I don't know what the minimum age-equivalent reading skills should be to guarantee comprehension. In any case, I can at least cite even more extensive Biblical evidence for the legitimacy of other beliefs.
4) Not to any substantial degree, other than using the wrong name for God. (j/k)
5) Maybe not THAT clear and all in one place; that's a pretty good way of putting it. But like I said, I can cite more evidence of similar concepts from the Bible.

Axe Elf said:

That is quite an assignment to undertake after midnight. It's possible that I will also be unable to really attend to it before Tuesday night. So I'll give you the Reader's Digest version now, and hope that I remember to address these tasks in more detail when I have the time to do them justice.

1) Yes.
2) Yes and no. I can provide a rational alternative interpretation, but I cannot provide any proof that one interpretation is right and another is wrong.
3) It seems pretty clear to me already, but I don't know what the minimum age-equivalent reading skills should be to guarantee comprehension. In any case, I can at least cite even more extensive Biblical evidence for the legitimacy of other beliefs.
4) Not to any substantial degree, other than using the wrong name for God. (j/k)
5) Maybe not THAT clear and all in one place; that's a pretty good way of putting it. But like I said, I can cite more evidence of similar concepts from the Bible.

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Cool. I will await your reply. Feel free to take as much time as you wish.

Axe Elf said:

It's certainly possible that the incarnation of God as a man, His subsequent death, and His resurrection is the only mechanism by which man's human nature can be reconciled with God's divine nature such that man can now enter into direct fellowship with God.

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There's a few things I find problematic about the Christian claim though. The first being the most common you probably hear. That if God had really wanted humans in relation with him, he could have made it from the start that they wouldn't fall, or ever have need of him to become human. Take that with the fact that God is supposedly all-knowing and such, it starts to seem like he had this planned all along no matter what. In other words: he created the problem for him to solve.

The claim is that he cursed people at the fall, which only Christians believe to begin with- not Jews.

That he cursed people though makes it seem hard to accept he's benevolent for wanting to remove it now. It more sounds like he wants people to have need of him and couldn't imagine if they didn't.

Also, the idea Christians have about God becoming man are not only unlikely- they're impossible.

It's one thing to accept the unlikely on faith, but to accept things that are so glaringly contradictory they couldn't be true comes off as not wise to me. The Christian view of hypostatic union is impossible because it's a contradiction in terms.

The way Christians suggest Jesus can be god and man at once is the same as suggesting water and dirt can be in one vessel and not become half and half. Do you see what I'm getting at?

Axe Elf said:

It's also possible that this mechanism may operate passively for anyone truly seeking God, without the seeker even being aware that Jesus had anything to do with his ability to enter into the presence of God.

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Yes, and that view is a better one than the exclusionary view, but I'm not sure how much it argues for Christianity's being true.

Buddha Dharma said:

I've noticed a rather odd thing that some Christians seem to do.

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It isn't odd, it is entirely because of the false texts brainwashing people into a certain perspective.... Plus is prophesied to be this way.

Buddha Dharma said:

They say that people reject their faith because of intolerance, extreme ideologies, because they want to sin, or something like that.

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It starts with Simon the stone (petros) who taught that 'Israel rejected faith in their savoir jesus'.

The fake gospel of John implies those who do not believe in jesus's death are condemned, and that the world hates his followers.

Paul implies that those outside the church are unruly, and wicked.

With all of their Pharisaic ideologies, mixed with the Tanakh, and what Yeshua said in the Synoptic Gospels, it makes them perceive they're going the only right way, and everyone else is on the wrong track...

Whereas if anyone really questioned in this world, they'd realize this has all been purposely created to be this way by an advanced intelligence.

In my opinion.

Buddha Dharma said:

I've noticed a rather odd thing that some Christians seem to do. They say that people reject their faith because of intolerance, extreme ideologies, because they want to sin, or something like that.

While I don't discount that may in fact happen. There may be people that reject Christianity for certain motives. I find myself having to ask: do Christians think it is possible their reasoning could ever fail to convince somebody?

Does that occur to some of these Christians that make such statements? That it is in fact possible people can reject Christian claims and arguments because they aren't convinced?

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Buddha Dharma,
True Christians study the Holy Scriptures and practice things to say to people that will reach their heart, but there are many things that hinder people from listening and even meditating on what they hear. Allow me, please, to mention some of these things, so that you can make sure it does not happen to you, Acts 13:41. At Matthew 13:1-30, there are mentioned several things that keep people from allowing the truth to reach their hearts. Then, here is another very important point, John 6:44,45, 14:6, Mark 7:6-9.
A very important thing that can happen, if you allow it, 2Corinthians 4:2-4. Another important thing, do not let others stumble you, but study God’s word for yourselves, Romans 14:10-12, 2Timothy 4:2-5, Acts 20:29,30, Matthew 7:13-23, 2Peter 2:1-3. 1Corinthians 15:33, Proverbs 13:20.
Remember also, that we all need God’s Holy Spirit to understand deeper things of God’s word, 1Corinthians 2:10.
Watch out for false teachers, because many false teachers do not even know that they are false teachers, 2Peter 3:15-17.
Always keep in mind that God wants the best for all people, but God is forced to destroy all who will not listen, because God is going to make this world a paradise, with people who obey, living a perfect life, for all eternity, and this cannot happen without removing all who do not obey God’s commandments, 1John 5:3, 2Peter 3:9, but 3:7. Agape!!!
,

@12jtartar thanks for your concern at any rate

Buddha Dharma said:

do Christians think it is possible their reasoning could ever fail to convince somebody?

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absolutely. in orthodoxy, we say that it is required faith and will to be christian.

Buddha Dharma said:

It's one thing to accept the unlikely on faith, but to accept things that are so glaringly contradictory they couldn't be true comes off as not wise to me.

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What you're doing isn't wise in the slightest according to the Biblical text, the whole world will be confounded by it, and you're quoting all the confused people as sources for understanding.

Buddha Dharma said:

The claim is that he cursed people at the fall, which only Christians believe to begin with- not Jews.

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Some of Judaism is in denial that the Curse stated in Malachi 4:5-6, that was originally stipulated by Moses in Deuteronomy 28, and Leviticus 26 hasn't been for the last two thousand years... Yet if we read what was specified it is quite clear it has happened, as written.

Buddha Dharma said:

That he cursed people though makes it seem hard to accept he's benevolent for wanting to remove it now.

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The Curse is not removed until the end Isaiah 24, Isaiah 34, Revelation 22:3:, Zechariah 14:11, etc.

Buddha Dharma said:

That if God had really wanted humans in relation with him, he could have made it from the start that they wouldn't fall, or ever have need of him to become human.

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The Biblical test is to see how people interact with the concept, before removing all those who don't accept it; that is the Snare of Isaiah 8:11-16 that those who don't accept Elohim here on earth, can not be in the Messianic age.

Buddha Dharma said:

Also, the idea Christians have about God becoming man are not only unlikely- they're impossible.

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This is because Judaism no longer accepted the council of Elohim; thus the God Most High has been forgotten, and Christians don't understand their texts because of it.

In my opinion.

Many times people cannot find God’s One True Faith, because they look in the opposite place that they should be looking. People think that the True Faith will be the most popular or will have the most people in it, or the richest people, or smartest.
Think about this; was Jesus the most popular person, or did many want to kill him, because of his teachings, John 15:18-21.
1Corinthians 1:18-31. The Bible tells us that many people will turn from what the Bible says and listen to the preachers that tell them what they want to hear, 2Timothy 4:2-5, 1Timothy 1:3-7. The Bible even tells us that the things that true Christians would be teaching would be different than what is taught by most teachers, 2Corinthians 10:3-5. People would get so far from the truth of God’s word that they would kill God’s people thinking they are doing a service to God, John 16:1-3. Remember, Jesus said that only a relitively few will be saved, Matthew 7:13,4, Luke 13:23,24.
One last point to help you look in the right place, Luke 6:20-26.
Agape!!!

12jtartar said:

Always keep in mind that God wants the best for all people, but God is forced to destroy all who will not listen, because God is going to make this world a paradise, with people who obey, living a perfect life, for all eternity, and this cannot happen without removing all who do not obey God’s commandments

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Isn't this like building a Paradise Hotel complete with crystal swimming pools on top of the site of the Auschwitz concentration camp? I think I'd have to sever my conscience in order to live there content to know God had to first get rid of the "undesirables" to make a "paradise" for me.

12jtartar said:

Agape!!!

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Not in the least. In fact, I'd call it hell.

Buddha Dharma said:

I've noticed a rather odd thing that some Christians seem to do. They say that people reject their faith because of intolerance, extreme ideologies, because they want to sin, or something like that.

While I don't discount that may in fact happen. There may be people that reject Christianity for certain motives. I find myself having to ask: do Christians think it is possible their reasoning could ever fail to convince somebody?

Does that occur to some of these Christians that make such statements? That it is in fact possible people can reject Christian claims and arguments because they aren't convinced?

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Reasoning fails every time in true matters of faith.

I try not to let reason cloud my judgement.

sayak83 said:

Do you think that the Bible, among the various theistic scriptures that exist, does a good job of making God understandable? I will confess that that has not been my experience.

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It's as good a text as any for a starting place. The trick is thinking for yourself and not following modern Christian dogma.

12jtartar said:

Many times people cannot find God’s One True Faith, because they look in the opposite place that they should be looking. People think that the

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I think @Buddha Dharma is asking more towards do you think it is possible that "you agree with" that instead of people looking in the wrong direction, we are looking in the right direction, for ourselves, our faith, not defining ourselves by other people's truth?

Do we need to be blind, lost, havent got there yet, still searching, waiting for god, or can we-that you agree with-can we practice a faith that Is truth and not anyone else's?

Do you agree if this is possible (we know more about truth than you) or does your faith teach no one knows the truth until they know god?

Can you explain?

Yes, I am asking if Christians think their theology is so error proof that people must be misled, or must misunderstand it somewhere to not accept it. Those Christians that do behave as such, I mean. I've had Christians tell me I don't understand the atonement, so I reject it.

These individuals seem to think a person couldn't reject Christianity knowingly.