• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Do Christians think it is possible to reject their logic/arguments at face value?

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
I've noticed a rather odd thing that some Christians seem to do. They say that people reject their faith because of intolerance, extreme ideologies, because they want to sin, or something like that.

While I don't discount that may in fact happen. There may be people that reject Christianity for certain motives. I find myself having to ask: do Christians think it is possible their reasoning could ever fail to convince somebody?

Does that occur to some of these Christians that make such statements? That it is in fact possible people can reject Christian claims and arguments because they aren't convinced?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I've noticed a rather odd thing that some Christians seem to do. They say that people reject their faith because of intolerance, extreme ideologies, because they want to sin, or something like that.

While I don't discount that may in fact happen. There may be people that reject Christianity for certain motives. I find myself having to ask: do Christians think it is possible their reasoning could ever fail to convince somebody?

Does that occur to some of these Christians that make such statements? That it is in fact possible people can reject Christian claims and arguments because they aren't convinced?


Its a question I ask over and over again. I live among a lot of christians. I may ask one but last time we talked religion she sat with me an hour telling me the genesis book by heart. If I ask I let you (all) know.

Hopefully, someone will give you a genuine answer; hopefully, a christian.
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
I think that's absolutely true, and even more than "not being convinced," I think the nonsense typically spouted by the most vocal Xians actually turns people off and makes them think that they would have to check their brains at the door if they were to become a Xian.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
I cannot reason someone into Christianity.
I cannot convince them to follow Jesus.
I will not argue in favor of Christianity to anyone.
I will answer questions if asked.
It is not my job to do anything else.
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
I cannot reason someone into Christianity.
I cannot convince them to follow Jesus.
I will not argue in favor of Christianity to anyone.
I will answer questions if asked.
It is not my job to do anything else.

That's always been my position too. I can't prove that God exists, and I don't think that is my place. If God wants to reveal Himself to you, He will, and if He doesn't, He won't. If you want to assume that an omni-God exists for the purposes of argument, then I can reason and derive theorems from those axioms, but I can never prove that the axioms are true.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
I commented here "
In my opinion Christianity is rejected when it becomes brittle, too inflexible to allow multiple points of view." You replied thusly:
Okay, so are you saying then: you don't think a person can hear the premises of Christianity and reject them? You don't think that could happen? It must be the intolerance of some churches? I know people that leave very liberal churches that aren't 'brittle'.

It always strikes me as odd that some Christians seem to think no one could reject the logic of their religion.
I reply then "....keep it short...I think it is originally a matter of willingness to commit to and live in a particular way rather than a semantics game, yes. I do not think there are supposed to be tests like "Do you know where you will go when you die?" and "How many persons in the godhead?"

To which I will add several references that are merely representative of a huge body which you might find interesting, some from gospels, some from Pauline letters, some much older. The point is no way, no how are Christians supposed to thrive on Shibboleths, proper sayings and Ecumenical agreements.
****************************
John 3:8 "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. (NIV)" That's Jesus talking about the nature of spiritual discipleship, sharply disagreeing with one common school about the spirit passing from teacher to student. Notice Jesus own disciples are not carefully chosen but are rather haphazardly added from the most unlikely of groups: uneducated mostly, one murderer, a fisherman and so forth -- a bunch also guaranteed not to get along together well.

This goes against one established theory of how the spirit is passed. Take for example Exodus 4:15 which says "You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do." Another theory draws from other sources and may refer to an account in Numbers 11:25-26. There is a tension about many things among various Pharisee groups. Jesus takes the side that the spirit goes where it will.
****************************

Jesus is considered a 'Greater' prophet than John the Baptist (not to be confused with John the author of some items in the Bible) yet he gets himself baptized by him, specifically to make a point about discipleship. His point is that the lesser may baptize a greater. This has implications for Christians about holding various points of view don't you think? Here is the NIV account: But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented. (Matthew 3:14-15) If you are well read you may notice how this account purposely imitates something that happens between Elijah and Elisha in a story in 2 Kings chapter 2. In that story the greater prophet is baptized by the lesser, and Jesus imitates this making his point.

In Matthew 3:11 John the Baptist declares that a greater prophet will come after himself.

***************************

James is I think the most important NT book for this subject. Its short only 5 chapters and is about this same subject. It begins by talking about wisdom and how anyone who wants wisdom need only ask God (although it is implied that they are seeking in the Torah by the context and not merely talking to their toes). This has many implications for Christians holding various opinions. James says not many should be teachers and that the tongue is a world of evil among the parts of the body, setting everything on fire. Its really a great, great book.

****************************
1 Corinthians 8:1 "Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that 'We all possess knowledge.' But knowledge puffs up while love builds up." Here is Paul talking about how knowledge -- as in the knowledge people pass to and fro -- is overrated. This has implications for people holding various opinions in Churches.

****************************

Romans 3:4 another Pauline one "Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: 'So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.'" And the reference he makes is hard to find as it does not appear to quote any specific verse and shows Pauls view of many verses. The idea here seems to be that compared with ultimate truth you and I and everyone else are all at about the same level. Nobody is better than anyone else.

****************************

Jude 1:9-10 "But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!' Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them."

****************************
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
@Brickjectivity I'm just not sure how you feel that answers my question. No offense intended.

I was wondering the same thing. Yes, God reveals truth to those whom He wills--but as the passages Brickjectivity cited tend to establish, not every argument made by religion necessarily reflects God's truth (how purported knowledge can actually be foolishness), and even those arguments that do reflect God's truth may not be accepted by unspiritual men (God being true, but men liars).

And so it is that people can be unconvinced by Christian arguments because of nothing more than their own perception of insufficient reasoning.
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
Do you mind being a little more clear about what you're saying here? Please

I was basically answering your question again in light of the verses Brickjectivity cited (although I was agreeing with you that I don't think they did an adequate job of answering your question themselves). I think it is entirely possible for someone to be underwhelmed by the arguments and claims made by Xians, and I think the verses cited give a couple of the reasons why--because sometimes what passes for Christian "knowledge" is really nothing more than foolishness (in which case the skeptic is entirely justified in their skepticism), and because sometimes what is actually true is not recognized as being true by the unbeliever (in which case their skepticism is misplaced). We may not always know which case is which, but in any case, it's easy to understand why Christian claims and arguments would not always be convincing to an unbeliever.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
I thought this was the thread sorry for any misunderstanding.

No I'm sorry. I see how I could have misled you there. This is a thread for answering if you think non-believers can reject Christian logic without another motive. I thought your response to me in the other thread attempted to answer that.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That's always been my position too. I can't prove that God exists, and I don't think that is my place. If God wants to reveal Himself to you, He will, and if He doesn't, He won't. If you want to assume that an omni-God exists for the purposes of argument, then I can reason and derive theorems from those axioms, but I can never prove that the axioms are true.
Your belief that an omni-God exists, is based on personal experience?
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
Your belief that an omni-God exists, is based on personal experience?

To some extent. Personal experience has given me reason to believe that God exists, but I choose to define Him as an omni-God because that's the only kind of a God that makes sense to me. If there's just some "superbeing" out there, but it isn't omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent, then God does not exist for me. And I'm ok with it if He doesn't, but I just can't revere any lesser being as God. It's omni or nothing, for me. But no, I don't have any personal experience that would lead me to believe God must necessarily be an omni-God; those are just the axioms I choose.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
To some extent. Personal experience has given me reason to believe that God exists, but I choose to define Him as an omni-God because that's the only kind of a God that makes sense to me. If there's just some "superbeing" out there, but it isn't omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omnibenevolent, then God does not exist for me. And I'm ok with it if He doesn't, but I just can't revere any lesser being as God. It's omni or nothing, for me. But no, I don't have any personal experience that would lead me to believe God must necessarily be an omni-God; those are just the axioms I choose.
But your personal experience does point to a God-like being who has personal traits and who was responsible for the writing of the Bible?

That is how do you ascertain its a Christian God rather than a Hindu, Greek, Muslim God.. or a Bodhisattva?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I've noticed a rather odd thing that some Christians seem to do. They say that people reject their faith because of intolerance, extreme ideologies, because they want to sin, or something like that.

While I don't discount that may in fact happen. There may be people that reject Christianity for certain motives. I find myself having to ask: do Christians think it is possible their reasoning could ever fail to convince somebody?

Does that occur to some of these Christians that make such statements? That it is in fact possible people can reject Christian claims and arguments because they aren't convinced?
Of course! One teaching of mainstream Christianity is the trinity, and there's no way I'll ever be convinced of that, and I consider myself a Christian!

Hellfire is another.

If we can't convince each other, I certainly don't expect non-Christians to be...except by reasonable argument using only the Bible's complete context as the authority, and not 'Early Father' opinions.
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
But your personal experience does point to a God-like being who has personal traits and who was responsible for the writing of the Bible?

That is how do you ascertain its a Christian God rather than a Hindu, Greek, Muslim God.. or a Bodhisattva?

I think all of those are just different words for the same thing (well, except for the Godhisattva, of course (yeah, that was a typo, but I liked it, so I left it)). Yes, my personal experience points to a God, and my primary framework for understanding that God (beyond the personal revelation that He exists), is the Bible.
 

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
If we can't convince each other, I certainly don't expect non-Christians to be...except by reasonable argument using only the Bible's complete context as the authority, and not 'Early Father' opinions.

So you don't think a non-Christian can reject the Bible out of not being convinced?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I think all of those are just different words for the same thing (well, except for the Godhisattva, of course (yeah, that was a typo, but I liked it, so I left it)). Yes, my personal experience points to a God, and my primary framework for understanding that God (beyond the personal revelation that He exists), is the Bible.
Do you think that the Bible, among the various theistic scriptures that exist, does a good job of making God understandable? I will confess that that has not been my experience.
 
Top